And yes, I spoke to his manager today and pretty much told him that I didn't want him to be surprised if I end up kicking him off of my project.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
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A couple of years ago, I went to a seminar on the topic of managing millennials. One point they made has been very helpful for me, and it may be a part of what you're dealing with. This guy could just be a standard know it all jerk, but I figured I'd share.

In previous generations, new hires were willing to put their heads down, work a few years, and were OK with not getting noticed and not making a big impact. They were paying their dues. Eventually they would grow into their career, people would start respecting them, and they may move companies once or twice before they retire. Millenials grew up in a world where their parents were regularly let go due to recession, off-shoring, restructuring, etc. They cannot fathom staying in one company for very long, because they have never seen anyone do it. They need to make an impact quickly, because they won't be around in 3 years. It isn't that they necessarily want to jump from company to company, it is just how they see the world.

Maybe the kid is just trying to show he is useful. His manager should be directing this excitement and drive into something productive.

Possibly. Or at least that could be a factor.

I talked to a millenial at the gym a few years ago who said he knew more and did more work than any of the older guys, and he planned to tell his boss that he should be making $250K a year.

I wonder how that went.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

They also talked about the impact parents had by always telling them how great they are, but at the same time doing their science project for them.

1) Have any of you noticed this pattern? Yes.

2) Do most of them survive past the beginning stages of their careers? ie do they ever grow out of this? I don't have statistics, but I know that some grow out of it.

3) Is there a way that they can be managed, or a fit for them within an engineering company? My chosen way is to do root cause analysis of all problems. And I'd consider faulty assumptions resulting in wasting 90 minutes of customer time a problem. Many people want to stay away from "the blame game", and claim millenials are especially bad at taking negative feedback, but how can you learn from mistakes if nobody even figures out what went wrong? I try not to be huge dick once we get there, but I don't let people keep me from getting to the bottom of things. For most perfectionist know-it-alls that journey is often humbling enough.

4) Clearly they can manage to study for test and calculate/regurgitate correct answers. Is there a way that they can be trained out of this behavior in school, or a way to screen them in school so that they don't get the degrees? Work is not school. The lessons are obviously going to be different in one versus the other as well.


On the other hand, some people just have personality blind spots. Those probably aren't going away.

I'm an engineer in oil and gas and have been for almost 20 years. As a result, I get to mentor and train a lot of junior engineers and fresh grads. It's one of the most rewarding parts of my job.

I expect them to be confident, but not cocky. Due to the nature of the work (hydrocarbons, high pressure piping and vessels, etc) one of the first things I hammer home is if you fuck up, people can die. So you better be right. That means follow specs and code, have ALL work reviewed, then check it again. It's your responsibility that people don't die or get injured. Risk should be engineered out as much as possible. Don t rely on operators or procedure.

And for added measure, we discuss the costs and environmental consequences of errors and oversights. Any thing under 50 million is considered a small project.

I've noticed that the fresh grads tend to be more over confident than someone who has a couple years experience. The experience tends to humble them somewhat. That's said, most of the juniors are willing to learn, and respect the knowledge and opinions of more senior people. Just my experience however.

Sounds like you have more of a "person" problem than a junior engineer problem.

"Sounds like you have more of a "person" problem than a junior engineer problem."

I've worked with about 6-7 interns/recent grads so far. Four were awesome and all got hired. One was okay, one was in the wrong field.


Yes, this one is special. Over confident, probably on the spectrum, and I think he might even have OCD, or some other personality disorder.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

i think there's also an element to engineering training that, frankly, breeds misplaced confidence. in canada, at least, the 'iron ring' thing often seems to get outweighed by the 'ertw' thing. in my time on campuses that included engineering schools, eng students were often convinced that their coursework was the hardest, that their field was the most important, that there were virtually no problems worth solving that their training hadn't already equipped them to solve. seems one or two mandatory courses in the humanities or social sciences might help with a sense of perspective. . .

side note: number two in the misplaced academic confidence sweepstakes was usually economics.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I an a Mechanical Engineer (Tech school, no PE) in the industrial construction industry. I am also an OCD triathlete. In construction I find my OCD to be very helpful. I think some people can grow and integrate their "disorders" to benefit their profession if given the opportunity. Others not so much. We have younger PM's coming in the same way, over confident and cocky. It usually doesn't take but 1 project for them to realize this isn't college.

The pattern I've seen is in smart people who have not been exposed to other smart people especially much smarter people. Someone who has been the smartest person in the room for a long time gets into the bad habit of assuming (often reinforced) that it isn't worth considering other peoples views, especially on anything technical. Add to this some spectral issues and they have a very hard time working with others. That said, I've seem progress when those people are exposed to situations where someone is more capable. I think it comes down to learning a little humility. Getting humbled helps. It helps even more to be exposed to someone who is obviously brilliant who is humble and openly considers that they might be wrong.

1) did not read everyone's reply
2) Background 52, Been an engineer for 29 yrs.

Bob Lutz is often quoted as saying "Often wrong, never in doubt" -- I use a modified version "Often wrong, seldom in doubt"

Engineers often will stick with and defend their initial thoughts in conversations , but then the good ones think about discussions and are willing to change.

For years I have been working within GM on a program of Evidenced based engineering.

In short, I know, I think, I was told, are not proof of things or evidence. When working a project start with what the customer (whomever that is) wants and whey do they want it -- of course you have evidence of that and they bought off on what you wrote down, cause often what they say, what hear is not what they want and only by putting in writing does everyone agree. But then going forward, you need evidence so in your case whats the evidence of what "product" meant.

Instilling this as policy also makes everyone do it and the young engineers dont feel your singling them out. Actually my experience its harder to get the old timers on board.

Anyhow hope this helps.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Short answer: your hiring process possibly failed.

Longer answer: your screening process, initial "stink test interviews" with an HR person, and the interviews with managers and other engineers.........those people possibly failed.

There's questions even the first HR person can ask that'd weed out problems. The old classic "can you give me an example of a time you were proven dead wrong and what you did about it?".

If there's crickets, either a liar or doesn't have any relevant experience in dealing with that and should be a "pass, next please".

Also, it's an intern. There shouldn't be any guarantee of a re-up or of a full time job someday. So shouldn't be that big of a deal.

I find it offensive you would lump so many of us into one fatburger in the sewer.

A real engineer will be more along the lines of "assuming makes an ass of u and me, show me the data".

Not "let's shoot at the hip now and cook the data later".

We're on a $2bil USD manufacturing project right now full of engineers. We've almost none of the problems you are describing going on. Then again, we hire the right stuff.

If I went through school now I bet they would classify me as on the spectrum... OH and a requirement to be a good engineer is to have a personality disorder.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Of course we were convinced of that cause its THE TRUTH...

lol

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Experience teaches you that the answer is rarely Yes or No and instead is almost always more nuanced as a Maybe...

Knowing this is why we older engineers earn loads more than the kiddies.

That, and engineers are almost always a bit on the spectrum 😀

This. Very satisfying work engagements have been with really smart people that are also humble because they're likely to consider other views, vs. the stubborn know-it-all. Had a former boss that was extremely bright who always said his goal was to be the dumbest person in the room. The hardest folks to work with are the stubborn ones that also believe they're the smartest.

we got 2 recent grads in to my dept.. phd physics from delaware, 1 male, 1 female. Outstanding individuals that I enjoy working with. Guess we hit the jackpot.

Jeez, what's the guy think he is? A lawyer or something?

"I find it offensive you would lump so many of us into one fatburger in the sewer."

I'm allowed to. I'm also an engineer.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Where are you?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

So, for any interested, here is the hangup that he has:

He thinks my table structure is inefficient. Here's the thing, if we were building a database, he would be correct. In every other context, including this one, he's completely wrong. I'm going to go out on a limb here and think that maybe part of his schooling was database structure and his lack of real world experience makes it difficult to see that the world does not always revolve around the efficiency of data storage.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Engineer masquerading as an analyst in a couple of fields.

1 - Yes, I've noticed the pattern of "I said this so I must be right no matter what anyone else says." It's worse with millennials, but it shows up in all cohorts. It seems to be getting worse, although I don't know why. I've noticed, as another poster said, that the "Someone told me/I heard that/I assumed" line of thinking is what people count as 'critical thinking.' Again, I don't know why and I don't want to blame the usual suspects - eg the education system, media, whatever - but the concept of asking oneself a question or posing a hypothesis, looking at the outcome, and then noting that the outcome did not match one's assumptions is no longer widespread. In fact, if you do that you might well end up being the target of some serious attack by your peers.

2 - Some grow out of this only if a mentor has worked on changing their behaviour. Unfortunately, narcissism appears on the rise in workforces. There aren't many true narcissists, but they have such a heavy influence that they can really propagate that "I said this so I must be right" way of thinking.

3 - Dunno. I try to avoid them now. But promotion systems favour them because they look so confident.

4 - I was fortunate to have good professors in university who went out of their way to teach a more Socratic approach to problems than what schools teach. Interestingly, those two professors were young at the time and their approach brought the entire faculty against them. They didn't survive the pressure. Within four years of trying the approach, they left for other jobs. One left me this book
https://www.amazon.ca/...panded/dp/1551114933

I'd also say this (as a side-note from the baby boomers thread):

once upon a time internships and entry-level positions were about training people up ... now they seem more about exploiting free labour and paying in 'experience.'

so when these interns and new staffers come to you without the right skills or mind set, you fire them rather than invest in them.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

SF BayArea... probably an epicenter of entitled Millennials

Interesting. Thought you might have been the triathlete that works at my company down the street from the University of Delaware (my alma mater).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I am not an engineer so won't comment on that portion of the thread, but depending on the definition, I am on the tail end of being a millennial and can respond to the above. (Born in 85, so just barely in the category)

From the general sense I get from people in this category, it is not that they do not want to be a company man or are unwilling to put in the time to advance at a given company. The issue is there is no incentive to stay at one company because companies today take advantage of long term employees. Look up any thread on the finance subreddits and you will see thousands of replies telling people to job shop every 2-3 years, reason given is that is the only way to advance or to make more money. Most companies will underpay a loyal employee until that employee gets fed up and goes somewhere else, often times while hiring new people at or above the rate of the loyal employee. Gone are the days of being rewarded for being a loyal company man. Better to shop your skills every 2-3 years and take the best offer. Often the old company will come back and try to match it, but by that time it is too late.

Job enjoyment and fulfillment is different for everyone, but feeling like your employer gives a damn goes a long way. At my job I don't make oodles of money, but each year I am given some sort of bump in pay, bonus, perk of some sort. Often times it is rather small, and I could potentially make more elsewhere, but I feel that the employer values me so it is easy to stay and work hard for the company. My wife is 31 and has worked for the same people for 10 years, she is as loyal as they come and works way too hard for those people. She hasn't had a raise in 5 years, got a lousy $15 coffee card for a "Christmas Bonus" and feels incredibly burnt out and undervalued. She makes less than a beginning landscaper but she runs a legal office for two attorneys, one of which almost doubled his income last year, created far more work for her, and gave zero consideration in return. It is quite clear that they will abuse her until she goes elsewhere so that is what she is finally working on. Then they will be royally effed and will be bitching and moaning about how they can't find good help and how no one wants to work hard, because the next person is not going to put up with that BS for long.

your alma mater did good by these 2.

That's good to hear! ;)

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Reminds me of my internship at a credit union. I was hoping to learn a lot about banking, nope they stuck me in a back room to file loan applications in alphabetical order (can I say I got good at my ABC's) for shipment to the warehouse. My learning came from all of the downtime I had. I read the WSJ over the mandatory lunch hour and I breezing through loan applications learning how massively in debt people are and how sketchy used car dealerships are. Any ounce of interest in learning more, anyone beyond my overwhelmed supervisor didn't want to be bothered.

Wait.. this doesn't sound like engineering this sounds like computer science/programming ... oh wait they want more cache I forgot so now they call themselves Engineer's.. Yeah just like the Sanitation Engineer that visits my house once a week.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I've experienced both. For us, we generally give them challenging projects. If they do well, they are likely to get jobs.


I also worked at mom and pop shop where the interns just did grunt work for cheap.





"I'd also say this (as a side-note from the baby boomers thread):

once upon a time internships and entry-level positions were about training people up ... now they seem more about exploiting free labour and paying in 'experience.'

so when these interns and new staffers come to you without the right skills or mind set, you fire them rather than invest in them."

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Reminds me of when I was interviewing college grads and one told me his prof said he will graduate knowing more than people who've been in the industry for 15 years. Sadly, the kid believed it. That was a short interview.

I just used it as a blanket term.


Anyway, we had a meeting today with his manger. The intern, again, expressed his concern with how big the file was going to get if we do it my way. The manager agreed with me that it would not be a concern.


For the record, the size of my table is 59MB. We 2.5 TB free on our server.


I'm going to guess that he was taught in college "don't let your tables get bigger than they need to be." Now, hopefully, he is learning a real world lesson of "don't be a pain in the ass over MegaBytes."


Storage costs about $25 per TB on a home computer. Lets go really really big and assume that its $100,000 to own and maintain a TB in our server farm. So we would have been arguing over something in the range of a dollar. The 90 minute meeting that I called to clarify this mess that he caused was worth about $1,000.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
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I'm sorry to hear about your experience. Sadly, it's the norm for interns. Most of my colleagues who hire interns and summer students see them as grunts and people on whom they pass off whatever soul-crushing work is left to do in the office. I don't know why anyone would want to treat another human being that way, regardless of where they stand on the company hierarchy. What does that say about a person who sees another person as 'just a grunt'? Mentoring another employee is a privilege.

In my experience as a TA, freshman physics lab was a rude introduction to the real world for most of the engineering students. They generally came in pretty cocky and got their asses handed to them.

If they had switched to physics the beatdown could've continued for four years or more!

I think the engineer attitude might depend on the school. One of my relatives just picked up an iron ring (through Waterloo), and he is confident, but not cocky. Good kid. He even has a girlfriend, even though Engineeers Rarely Touch Women.

I’m a materials engineer in automotive and my colleagues treat what I do like it’s black magic. In reality it’s a ton of reading customer specs and journal papers. The other half of my job is networking with suppliers and OEM materials engineers who know far more about their products than I do. The other half is making sure Purchasing does not muck up every program by sourcing the wrong but cheaper materials...much fun.

Guys like the one described in the OP usually turn up in Sales a few years down the road.

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_____________________
Fester from Detroit, Mi

See this is why we are so damn arrogant and should be. Everyone secretly wants to be us, so much so they call anything from a garbage collector to a programmer engineer.

You all wish you could be us, Yeah cant.

SUCK IT.

lol

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I see what you did there.....

"Now sure it's a different world if you work on embedded stuff, but most of the time storage is way cheaper than engineer time. "

We have a limit on our LASR server, which is a very fast storage/memory system that can access data quickly. A few years ago I had to do a sizing analysis and we had to make some cuts to fit everything on the (at the time) 1 TB.

As I went through the analysis, I noticed we had about 30 tables. One table took up 80% of our storage space, another 15%, and the other 28 the remaining 5%.

Guess which tables I spent my time organizing and which ones I didn't bother with. I told him, if we have storage issues, we'll figure out a way to save another couple hundred gigs on those tables and not bother shaving off 20-30MB.


But to your point, yes, he didn't understand, at all, the value of our time. I'm sure there was room to make improvements, but why? "I'm sure we can figure something out." Okay.....how much time will it take to figure something out? Or, we can wrap this up and move on.


My father-in-law ran an IT department with the department of energy. He loves telling this story about how the email servers went down. He went to the server room to see what was taking so long, meanwhile losing how many thousands of dollars every tick of the clock. He walked in there and saw the IT guy looking through some logs. My FIL reached over him and pushed the rest button. "Figure that shit out later!"

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
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