1) Yes
2) the elite schools don't need the money. Check out Stanford's Harvard's Yale's etc endowments

Why do you think it would hurt their image, if 10 kids got in on money alone? Do you currently think the only way into Yale is by grades, and test scores? Besides, it could be said its for diversity of the school. To graduate the kid still has to do the work, and pass the classes.

Never new a private entity that didn't want more money.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I like the idea I've heard that some schools are considering of setting entry standards (so you are fairly sure the admitted kids can do the work) and then simply randomly choose who you admit.

This would be true if only 1 or 60 'undeserving' people get in. The reality in the states is that its likely a much greater number. The super-rich buy buildings and get kids in. The rich do the Felicity Huffmanm - and you gotta figure that 99% out there do not get caught. They simply bribe the admissions or athletic director directly. Then you have the politically connected people's kids - the colleges want favorable laws so having a governors son or congresswoman's daughter is always a good thing. Then you have the 'athletes' - officially they deserve to get in, but really its all about revenue from college sports. Ol' Miss ain't known for its Nobel laureates.



1. YES. If I am hiring the best and brightest for my firm, I don't want people who are not the best and brightest. In a few instances I may want the connections the cheaters bring, but generally I'll avoid them. BTW This is why CalTech will eclipse MIT & Harvard eventually. CalTech takes the best and brightest. MIT & Harvard use racial criteria, often sorting out some great, brilliant students because they have too many of that race as per their quota.

2. If its a meritocratic school, the number is 0%

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

While many of the top elite schools tout that they are "need blind", and large number are either "need-sensitive" or don't meet the demonstrated financial need of admittees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/...Need-blind_admission


In other words, a huge number of very highly regarded schools skew admissions toward those who can pay. Throw in all of the out-of-state students, and the international students (who are often admitted under different criteria). Then consider the millions of students who are effectively unable to compete for selective admissions, due to really crappy eductional opportunity. All of this has been in plain sight for a long time, and the status quo is accepted.

1. YES. If I am hiring the best and brightest for my firm, I don't want people who are not the best and brightest. In a few instances I may want the connections the cheaters bring, but generally I'll avoid them. BTW This is why CalTech will eclipse MIT & Harvard eventually. CalTech takes the best and brightest. MIT & Harvard use racial criteria, often sorting out some great, brilliant students because they have too many of that race as per their quota.[/quote]

So being able to do the course work and succeed in the 4yrs your at the university, is not enough to make you the best and brightest. From what your saying is H.S. already separates the very best? Do you really look at employees H.S. transcripts when you hire them, do you question how they got into a University?

MIT and many elite (I would guess Caltech also) give preferential treatment to athletes. So do you exclude any college athelete from being hired because clearly they are not the brightest and best as their playing sports probably helped them get into the university they got into. ---- YES This is first hand knowledge having a kid that was recruited by smaller D1's and applied to several D3's

Interesting that how a kid got into a college matters to you. Would love to know how you check this?

SIDE DISCUSSION:

Your comment about diversity in the class is interesting, you seem to imply that there is some way to determine kid xx is brighter than kid yy..
2 students 4.28 gpa's with 30 credits of AP or IB classwork already both have perfect SAT scores. Which one is brighter which one do you take and why. This is the reality of admissions counselors at the Caltech and MIT's of the world.

MIT admissions officers will tell a kid hey if you got a 35 on the ACT dont take it again to get the 1pt it doesn't matter to us. They look at a lot of things... Those getting into the TOP TOP of college's are competing with lots of bright kids. the difference in getting in and not to some of these schools can come down to small things and how you present yourself and not how bright or brilliant you are as they all are bright and brilliant.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

They could just put the slots on eBay and donate the proceeds to charity like IM.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

As someone else mentioned before most of the top end Elite schools have big enough endowment funds that most kids get scholarships.

That being said there is so much involved in the college admission process, that it takes $$ to get into them, or connections.

My daughter applied to Tuft's, Johns Hopkins, MIT, Wash U in ST. Louis, Case Western, and some other powerhouse I forgot. All strongly recommend campus visits. etc.. most of them charge at least $100 just to apply. (Yes you can get a waver, online)

I guess this is why I dont get the outrage over this scandal. Having $$ creates opportunities.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

I look at the University they graduated from. If I'm hiring a new junior analyst for McKinsey & Company one of the many factors I will use in sorting the candidates is the University they went to. I'd rather have someone from a respected academic university than one that is a sports franchise with post-secondary side business attached.




MIT/Caltech and the other academic schools also have sports programs but these are smaller and less schools have less incentive to recruit a semi-literate knucklehead just because he can run really fast while carrying an inflated ellipsoid pigskin.
Generally no, an athletic scholarship is not a red flag - i.e. if you were at Furman University on a rowing crew scholarship, then good on ya. But, theoretically, if you were a back-up QB or RB at 'Bama or a bench-riding point guard at UNC... I may be worried that you skated though in life up to that point and when your pro-sports career didn't pan out you are hoping to land a job.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

A LOT of schools just below the top end have a 2-tiered admission policy ("need aware" means that folks who can pay full frieght get preferential admission). 3 of the schools that you listed are among those. Living in the Bay Area (where most folks can cover the full cost), it is astonishing how many kids I know are funnelled to these types of schools, and eventually attend them. (i.e. presently I know four students going to Macalester)

MIT gives preferential treatment to athletes because they are well rounded students, not because of their ability to improve the performance of MIT teams. They also do not give any sort of athletic or merit based scholarships.

I’m curious how a soccer coach was cashing a $450000 check and how he claimed it on his taxes. Or am I getting it wrong?

"Folks talk about these kids taking someone's seat, but admissions doesn't work that way. For instance Univ of Mich had something like 66k applicants last year sent acceptance letters to about 15,000 and expect a class of about 6600. So 1, 10 or even 60 kids is round off error. "

Two thoughts. First, you are partially correct. A single student is not likely literally bump another single student, but statistically this is exactly what happens. At some point there is a cutoff decision made. Maybe it doesn't happen at this school this year because of that one student, but when you add up all the students who do it, at all of the schools, and all of the years, odds are that for every 100 times this happens, some school is going to cut off 100 students. *side note below*


The other question is about our concept of fairness. If I'm stuck in traffic and you decide to pass everyone on the shoulder to cut an hour off of your commute, that doesn't really affect me, or anyone else in the line, but the question is, why do you get to be the one who skips all of the traffic while the rest of us have to suffer?



Side note: this concept of "no one will notice this one little instance" is the same problem we have with trying to solve global warming voluntarily. Why should I spend all of my spare time planting trees when I can fly around in a private jet and have virtually the same impact on the environment? Its for this reason that we set up regulations....or admissions standards.....to solve these big problems.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

This is why CalTech grads are great at creating patents and may have a leg up on Nobel Prizes. MIT & Harvard's larger student bodies allow them greater diversity which improves the experiences for all of their students. That allows their students to become CTOs and CEOs.

Summer 2017, the firm I worked for had interns from Northeastern work in the model shop. One of them was a really big guy. NU lists him as 6'7, US Rowing lists him at 6'10" when he road at the U23 worlds that summer. But he was an architecture student who was good enough to work for one of the most decorated, highly regarded firms in Boston.
On the other hand, NU is at best the 3rd best Architecture school in Greater Boston. He's got to compete with Harvard and MIT grads.

So I am confused, you don't like the idea of a few folks buying there way into a University, because they wont be the brightest and best, yet you admit you only care what they did in college. So if they bought there way in then got 4.0 and did research ... why would it matter.

My point on the smaller schools and athletics was that athletes even at the schools get preferential treatment, The coach at MIT told my daughter don't let the schools acceptance ratio stop you from applying If I tell admissions I support this candidate the acceptance ratio is about 50%. So there are lots of factors in how to get into a top school, why would people care if a very small percent were allowed to buy there way in?

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Get this, people committed fraud. Things like claiming to be good at a sport that they don’t even play. Coaches accepted bribes to put these non-players in their teams.

Entrance exams were rigged/cheated on. Test givers bribed to do it.

You don’t “get” why this upsets some people!

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

It doesn't sound worse than the current system where everyone is anxiety plagued and spends tons of money on SAT and ACT coaching.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

There was a tennis coach that reported a huge amount of income as "consulting fees". Didn't raise an eyebrow until the scandal broke.

I think the problem area is the group of kids that are "reasonably" qualified, but can't all be accepted -- and thus people look to cheat or come through "side doors".

Clearly, there's a group that a school can/should accept outright - SAT/ACT, GPA, far above threshold. Likewise, there's a group of kids that they can reject outright - far below the standards. Then you have a small number of special categories - athletes (legit ones), legacy/family/donor connections, etc.

The problem is choosing from the vast numbers of qualified kids that don't explicitly fit the above. The front door of the admissions process can't let them all in, and it becomes subjective judgment on the parts of admissions, and that becomes problematic, unfair, biased, etc. etc. (especially for those rejected). And probably somewhat stressful for admissions folks trying to decide on one kid over another.

I think they should just throw this group into a lottery. 2000 freshman spots to be filled from the 40,000 "equivalent" kids that want to get in.

here's a new approach: send far, far fewer students to university in the first place. north america sends way too many student to uni and it's a waste. when i lectured first-year classes usually about 1/4 to 1/3 of my students didn't belong at university.

commit to the trades, stop demanding 2 degrees for every damned job, commit to internships and actual entry-level positions with on-the-job training, and make university a place for knowledge rather than an expensive and ineffective job-training center. . . do that and you're off to a great start.

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____________________________________
https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

Stupid question - why have funded college sports like sailing, golf which are only a significant expense to the school?

I have no clue why schools have sailing and golf sports. Partially in some divisions they require a minimum number of sports be offered and they list specific sports. I have no clue if Sailing or golf make money or not. Some sports is also a good advertisement for the school.

Of course I don't really have a clue how this relates to the original post.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Yup, If you are at all familiar with the college admissions process, college athletic process, standardized testing process ect.. it is pretty simple to cheat, Rich people have lots of ways of manipulating the system.

Funny thing about my question.. Its fairly close to how some universities operate.

My daughter applied to a fairly well known upper end college, as with most athletic dept they had a recruiting weekend where the track team had all the recruits in. In todays era all the recruits created a group text and kept in touch throughout the process. In this case there were 6 in her event, my daughter and one other girl had a 35, 36 ACT scores 4.0+ gpa. the rest were good all plus 28 on ACT most plus 30. GPA's 3.8 or higher. Thing was my daughter and the other higher scorer were going to need financial aid. It was not a needs blind school.. 4 of the 6 got offers.. i'll let you guess the 6. So what I proposed although more straight forward, happens today anyhow.

So am I surprised some parents paid off people, and coaches took bribes, to get there kid in school. Nope $1.2 million to get your kid into Yale, yeah that sort of surprises me, I guess the other kid at $1.2 million who didn't get in surprises me. But outrage, eh rich people overpay for things all the time. Its college admissions of a handful of kids.. sorry got more important things to be worried about.

Do you think anyone on the board at NIKE would have a problem getting there kid into Oregon?

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Most of these types of sports are used to meet Title IX requirements.

I will take the Big Ten for example, just because I am more familiar with that group of schools including attending one. The Big Ten is pretty horrendous in baseball, the majority of the baseball players are receiving very little in the way of scholarship money. You may have 45 players on the team and 15 full scholarships available that is divided by 35 of the players and there are 10 walk ons. You look at women's volleyball, the Big Ten is arguably the strongest conference. Teams in the finals 16 of the last 20 years, 11 champions, 2 years with 2 teams in the finals, 28 teams in the final four involving 7 schools. So why is this? Great coaching? Great players? Volleyball is important in the midwest high school sports? No, Big Ten schools need to cover Title IX scholarship requirements, so in order to do this all 15 women on the volleyball team are on full ride scholarships. So in general, they are able to get better talent, which then competes with the better talent throughout the season.

So many schools are funding these off shoot sports to cover Title IX.

With that said, you also see some of these sports that are club sports, which are funded from donations, the players, ect. that operate and even play in leagues just as any normal school sport.

Was interesting to know, tnx. Remember when I studied in college I had to balance between part time job, sport and study. It wasn't easy and I didn't have time for entertainments at all. But it taught me how to overcome all obstacles. Besides I found reliable writing service by the link that helped me to write 1000 word essay and cope with all those paper works.

 I've heard that some schools are considering of setting entry standards

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