Contracts, money, and commitments.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Because Felt keeps the roster relatively small, and you gotta find dollars somewhere...

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Wouldn’t more PRO athletes using them increase their sales? I’m assuming after RYF performance on Saturday they will increase sales on certain markets....

Same with canyon and frodeno / Lange.

A smart triathlete doesn't buy a bike because of a pro athlete. You buy the bike you like, that has the features you want, and in the color you love.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Agree but the best way to reach people and new markets is not an ad on a magazine or a website but using KOL and sport reference athletes to show the product and the performance of it.

Then the athlete can decide. My initial question was why after so many great performances not more pros are using them and being signed but felt. That’s it

It may increase sales, but does it increase profitability?

Let's say for instance that sponsoring another 4 pros costs you $150,000 in sponsorship dollars. Then you also have to factor in the actual cost of the number of frames that you're essentially giving away, plus whatever bonuses are written into the contract. To make that up, it's not simply $150,000 in sales, it's then more like $275,000 in sales to break even (markup, etc.) But that's not even right, as that order probably cost more to bring in from China/Taiwan/wherever you manufacture from, etc.

The cost analysis is way more complex than "does it increase sales."

Felt, even after the purchase, is still punching upward. So they are careful with their sponsorship dollars - and for good reason. They make damn good bikes that fit pretty well and will sell regardless of what professional athlete is riding them. And they solved for the one issue that the IA series has had (rear brake) with the new disc brake bikes.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

It is even more complicated than that with future growth potential. Say you dont sponsor any athletes - your bike brand is probably seen less and less over the years and dies out slowly. You sponsor one athlete, and they win and everyone sees the bike...some buy it..some dont...well those bought bikes are now seen in races and more people buy them..some dont. Sponsor another athlete - and suddenly you have top level exposure again. So 10+ years down the road - the sales and growth are going to be much different than if you didn't sponsor a certain athlete, only a few athletes, or none at all.

You're overstating the value proposition, IMO. Brand exposure via athlete victories is pretty limited, and winds up saturating an audience that already cares about your product.

You know where you really make impressions that matter? At your retailer.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

By retailer you mean LBS? Ok, agree.

But then, how did Canyon achieved their positioning if they don’t have an external retailer besides their own website?

Do you think the success Canyon has is solely due to the web? Or does having Frodeno and now Lange as “users” an important factor?

Just trying to understand a bit more how these brands are growing in a market that has been (and still is) dominated by Cervelo’s, Trek’s, etc., with so different strategies and points of sales.

Thx for the answer though

Canyon reached where it is today primarily by being a marketplace disruption in terms of distribution channel in Europe. They've then transitioned that reputation into the United States distro, despite having limited inventory and by being late to the market with customization available (Quintana Roo and Diamondback beat them to market here). I think the reputation of the ease of transaction, being able to customize the build, and the cost (below traditional market-value) were what led to their growth. It has very little to do, IMO, with Frodeno and Lange outside of the echo chamber that is the Slowtwitch Forum.

QR's growth in terms of sales over the last few years has had a lot to do with the introduction of a new product line that fits more athletes than they previously did, their arrangement with USA Triathlon paying dividends, and outstanding customer transaction process for sales in a new distribution channel.

Meanwhile, at retail, stores that are doing well are doing a good job of telling their own stories of fit philosophy and service, while also being the primary stewards of the brand that they sell. Have a bad experience at the store? It's likely to color not only your opinion of the store, but the brands that they carry as well.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Felt is very selective about who they offer contracts to. They have many other Pro cyclists to sponsor across all ranges of cycling besides just triathletes. Triathlon is only a small portion of their business and the triathlon bike market is small. If they felt (no pun) there was more upside to having more sponsored triathletes they would. None of the top tier athletes are buying their own bikes, but I know of several pros who dont have bike sponsorship that own Felt IAs because its a great bike.

The success of canyon is due to their DTC approach. Objectively it’s a great value. Cervélo is an will continue to slip.

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USAT Level II- Ironman U Certified Coach

that is the answer so let's expand on it. since the Felts of the world only pay so many racers, and since there are only so many Felts, is there an opening for a pro to go NASCAR?

finagle a Felt frame. pay for it if you have to.
take said frame to a paint shop where it is given a new NASCAR-like paint job. Tony the Tiger. Mtn Dew. whatever.
open the sponsor base.

its far fetched but Felt probably isn't paying that much either.

Felt was sold last year to Rossignol, they most likely cut back expenses significantly in order to present the best balance sheet when looking for buyers. I think it will be interesting to see where they go going forward. They are a much smaller company than most of the other bike players but manage to carry a wide ranging line of bikes (almost to many in my opinion). I think the new IA had some great updates and if they can keep their prices down they will do very well as long as they keep them in stock and have a quality dealer network.

I'd imagine that sponsoring a World Tour team, like Movistar makes a difference. Sponsoring triathletes, on the other hand, likely represents a much smaller benefit to exposure and sales.

...That, and making cool bikes at competitive price.

I have noticed at a couple races the same thing - lower level pros but there were 3 or 4 guys on them. Seems like a great bike.

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

I wouldn't necessarily say so. I think Canyon's success has started with their popular range of road bikes and mountain bikes and a well known reputation through sponsoring two successful World Tour teams. Movistar with world champ Valverde rides the Ultimate and Katusha with guys like Tony Martin and Marcel Kittel ride the Aeroad. It leads to the brand already being considered strong and time trial bikes are just an extension of it. And the price is good too.

I would be curious to cross the Kona bike count with demographics/geographical origin.

I haven't seen, on a relative scale, that many Canyon here in the states. Maybe it is the distribution delay, but my hunch is the majority is from Germany/Benelux and credited to Frodeno and Lange and of course the origin of bike.

Wouldn't be surprised to see scales tipped to US for Trek SC.

Felt with Ryf could be a great marketing test case for EU uplift.

In the case of EU and Felt sales, you'd need to first ballpark your projected sales increase on a YoY basis assuming that you had no sponsorship agreement in place, and then a projected sales increase on the YoY basis assuming the sponsorship. Then you also need to look at other internal and external forces that would potentially dilute that impact - impressions generated outside of the sponsorship, other events like Eurobike or Interbike that may influence a purchasing decision, retail network expansion or retraction...

My inkling is that increases are more likely to be attributable to favorable marketplace considerations and the fact that the product itself is superior to others in a many number of ways rather than looking at sponsorship.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Considering the paint job of Ryf´s bike I don´t think it will increase any sales.
Especially by knowing that everytime there is picture posted of her bike and her logo a good graphic designer dies.
Sad but true :)

Haha... yeah, her logo is basic, but there must be meaning/reason behind it being that way. Most mortals will not notice that detail. The overall bike looked good.

I agree with the marketing sentiments, and bike choice is multifactorial, but I will add my own spin as it has yet to be said this thread: performance/design is another consideration of bike choice.

The IA is optimized more for high yaw angles. Compare this to cervelo which is optomized for low yaw angles. Most riders have one bike for the season, sponsorship aside. We know that in most races, low yaw angle is king. Kona is an exception, and the IA and new shiv were optomized for the conditions (with 2018 ironically having near zero wind). So most people choosing bikes for the season... based on data will chose the bike that fits their needs... low yaw efficieny. Thus the high number of cervelos At kona.

I did not to a count, but to me, the IA is more prominent in the womens field vs mens. The design favors riders with less total power, as effective yaw angles will be higher. Smarter choice for many.

That being said, i also believe in the “peak aero” theory. If a cervelo is faster than the ia at low yaw (and i suspect it is, marginally), the difference is less than the difference in rider fitness/strategy, but it all helps.

I agree and I believe that Ryf could proof her outstanding bike riding skills on any bike by any brand.
TMO it is not the athlete who is deciding for a specific brand and then the athlete go to this specific brand and ask for a sponsorship. It is all about marketing and if Cervelo would offer a better deal more pro´s would go there. Felt probably would love to have more sponsored athletes but weather they are lacking money or the athletes have still a running contract with a different company.
It has not much to do with the performance of the bike...

I'm guessing you're not a woman, because the woman in my house likes Ryf's logo and the painjob of her bike.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

I hold the same opinion of the graphic design on Ryf's bike. Whatever they were after, it didn't translate in the final presentation.

specialized had more of a pro presence - and i'm guessing at a much higher overall price tag - than felt. which brand among all of them did the best for themselves in kona? seems to me felt's going pretty well for itself in pro athlete deals.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

The thing I will say is that Felt seems to deliver long-term support out of the athletes they choose to partner with. Ryf's been there forever, as has Carfrae.

I am intrigued as to what measurement process some companies are using for sponsorship - whether they're trying to tie it to bottom-line financial results or if it's just considered a standard cost of doing business.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

"whether they're trying to tie it to bottom-line financial results or if it's just considered a standard cost of doing business."

Marketing is a lot more complicated and nuanced than that. But it all stems from the basic proposition of product, price, place and promote, which must address company goals, customer desires, cost, competitors and convenience, . You can break it down a lot from there, but figuring out the secret sauce that a particular company has used to approach sponsorship as a part of marketing/promotion/product budget is driven by the business case analysis. The way each of these companies arrived at the numbers of sponsored pros is a lot more in-depth than a single stat like bike count can convey.

I have to buy Felt because that was the ST name I chose years ago.

Second part has fit me so far. Then again I am not a triathlete so what do I know? :-)

Of course marketing is more complex than that. Why do you think I post here? :)

And, in a lot of instances, I think you're giving far too much nuance and perspective into some of these companies. If there's ever an industry that could use an overhaul in the analytics department...

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Yeah, interesting topic there. Felt's approach has been quite interesting in the sense that they have partnered with few pro triathletes, but all very top tier athletes. Then you look at a company like FLO that is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum and sponsors not a single pro athlete. Both companies seem to be doing quite well though.

Being able to show your value in terms of sales is really hard to do for most people, those that have figured that out seem to have a bit more negotiating power, if that is what a sponsor is wanting out of their athletes, the ability to increase sales.

In the role I have at PH, the current discussion is based on what you said above, just a matter of what that price point is. But I very much believe it is a standard cost of doing business in the triathlon market, just a matter of finding the right balance and ensuring you are getting the best ROI in who you are working with. The sponsorship/partnership model is definitely shifting within the industry.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

(Noted your profession...clearly you're beyond the basics here... :-)


"If there's ever an industry that could use an overhaul in the analytics department..."

And the turnaround....why do you think I post here. ;-)

I wholeheartedly agree. But that may finally rip away the last shibboleths of the industry, and some of those are going to die hard deaths.

and amberger.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

It's really interesting to me that the newer companies tend to have a heavier focus on analytics and a more skeptical eye toward some of the traditional sponsorship models. We've also seen run companies move more quickly in this department. I think some of that simply is tied to the product life cycle being so much shorter there versus, say, cycling stuff.

There's a handful of professional triathletes that really "get" it. You're one. (Now, would you please show up to TBI while we're at it?)

In re - Dan - yeah, Amberger is another one. I was on Web Archive for a bit today and was on the Felt site from 2011 and they had a big feature up about re-signing Ryf. That's what sparked that analysis. It really does seem to be that they find a few athletes and keep them for the long haul. One notable exception from that archived site: Jan Frodeno!

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Actually the ‘customize’ options with Canyon are very limited to none compared to other brands like Orbea. For example since we talk tri here, the Speedmax comes with cranks to long and in size L and XL with extensions for most too short since they cut their Profile Design t4 5 to 6 cm shorter then original. Further there is nothing to customize on the Speedmax CF models. With Orbea Ordu you can choose colour, design your own, choose stem, crankset tooth, cranklength, rotor(powet) or shimano and wheels. At no extra cost!

So sometimes I have a feeling customizing options at Canyon are overrated...

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Once upon a time their configurator was considered best-in-class. It's been surpassed. But the reputation remains...

It's the same thing when people call Amazon a marketplace disruptor at this point. Well, no! It's just Amazon doing what Amazon does! They're just entering new verticals with the same basic idea that led them to dominate in nearly everything retail...

I almost mentioned Orbea. I have an irrational love of the Starky Ordu.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Myabe that goes for the US where they are pretty new, but that configurator, or lack off, reputation is actually going counterwise here in EU, at least at the Speedmax, because of the cranks that are quite long per size (and it does not help that Frodo at 195 cm tall is running 170's in his bike the same size as they put on their XS Speedmax) and to the shorter extensions.

We are pretty Canyon friendly and do quite a lot of fit's for people that want to buy one but when they are told that they cannot change cranks and that they need a new set of extensions because during the fit we see they are too short the love sometimes is over. Sometimes it works out fine, but in the smaller sizes the cranks are an issue and in the taller sizes in most cases the extensions are an issue except when they buy Di2 because Canyon uses the older 2 button bar end shifters and they add just a bit of extra length to the extensions.

Jeroen

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

That's almost exactly what Ironman Foundation seemed to do:

https://hips.hearstapps.com/...w,0&resize=640:*

Thanks, TBI is on my list of things to attend, timing just hasn't been right. Hard to justify flying in from Europe for it, if/when we are US based it will be a priority to be there.

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-Brad Williams
Website | Twitter: @BW_Tri |Instagram: @BW_Tri | Strava | Co-Founder & Coach at: KIS Coaching
Partnered with: Zoot Sports | Precision Fuel &Hydration | ISM

Where do you see customization on Canyon's website? I'm in Europe and don't see anything.

<pink> Of course we're talking the US. What else matters? :P </pink>

I think we wind up discussing a lot of this in US terms if only because US growth and stabilization is so critical to the overall industry. So when new distribution channels pop up here in the US, including those who were chomping at the bit to get at Canyon without the "let's order from the EU and somehow get it over here" game, you wind up in a different conversation.

I do think you have superior customization options in the D2C space - the Diamondback one was really ahead of its time (given the inventory), and QR's is excellent. That said, we still have a hurdle to overcome with the vast majority of the purchasing public - the value of fit coming first, and then determining your purchase from there. Too often we see somebody get fixated on the bike first, and then their fit on board it negates all of the positive outcomes of the improvement in the bike. Something I personally want to keep focusing in with my sphere of influence, and hopefully see it continue further beyond that over the next 18 months.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I'm not a distributor/retailer, so am happy to be talked round on this one, but in the instance of direct to customer sales it feels unnecessarily restrictive to not offer customisation on much of the above.
In my view, there should be flexibility on the following almost as standard:

Cassette ratio
Crank length
Chainring size
Derailleur cage length
Stem length (with some highly integrated exceptions)

These are all examples of items which cost the seller the same either way, but getting right can save the customer a notable amount of cash and increases the value of the bike in real terms.
Even if this was offered on a first come first served basis, or levels of flexibility were heavily dictated by what the company had managed to get their hand on, or what other customers had switched from to create that excess stock.

LOL

I am a graphic designer. This is truth.

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

For a relatively small company with a tiny marketing budget (in comparison with that marketing behemoth that sometimes turns its hand to making the odd bike, Specialized) their popularity within the sport is incredible - look at the Kona count. I am a Felt owner, on my 9th now - they are great and what I like is that they are small, smart and a bit less showy.

Throwing $100k+ at frodeno wont necessarily find you $100k+ more in retained profit. The history they have in the sport should count for something too. Jim being one of the few guys who worked on that scott aerobar set up that got the whole ball rolling. Paula Newby Fraser being their first pro I think, Jim built her a bike from scratch - seemed to work out pretty well.

Who would you sign if you were Felt?

Didnt Frodo and Mrs Frodo win Beijing both on Felts? Jan an AR and Emma a ZW?

I think that right now is hard to sign someone who is already at the top of its game or up and coming... but perhaps can do something cool and built the Felt Junior Academy or something, similar to what Red Bull has in motorsports.

By doing that you are capturing athletes at the beginning / start of their path into a PRO career. I think this happened with Ryf as she’s been a Felt athlete since 2009.

This way you don’t spend crazy dollars in sponsorship but can have a good future in terms of great athletes.

Just a thought.

When I bought my first tri bike my position was all fucked, wasn't holding a good cadence let alone knew what power was. I just wanted to do triathlon because I was a competitive athlete and the "boss" said let's do this and I just dove in.

Maybe this is my experience, but I don't believe the bike selling industry gives a shit about fit. When I bought my Giant Trinity there was no discussion about fit at the store. Most cycling stores that also sell tri bikes know fuckall about "fit". I went to a guy a couple months later who didn't use Retul, did do video analysis though so I saw before and after but got no x/y. Position was a lot better.

So after reading a lot of Dan's articles and the forum I set out to get a Fit for my replacement bike. Spent a chunk of change on this but such is life and I feel good about it completely. I looked around in Phoenix for places that had a fit bike, whether it was RETUL or FIST. I'd say the database on the site here is crazy out of date...but my bigger issue is that Tri-Shops are their getting rid of their fit bikes. Originally when I had looked at getting a new fit before my Trinity got wrecked I was going to go to Tribe Multisport because they were cheaper by $100 than Moxie. Well...when I called around to 10ish shops around the valley only Cyclologic and Moxie had fitbikes. Went to Moxie and can't be happier about the service I've gotten. Did my fitting on my bike the other day and pick up the E-119 next week.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Moxie does good work. Met them out at TBI last year.

This is part of the underlying problem - I think there are certain shops that are deciding that "well, that fit bike is just collecting dust and the consumer isn't asking for it, might as well sell it for cash." But then we (collective we as an industry) don't do a good enough job educating the consumer how important fit is to determining the right bike. We do a good job at saying that fit is important. We don't do a good enough job in both describing the process and tools involved (exception: Dan) and we don't do a good enough job getting that content to the right audience (which, shame on me, as I help drive the social media bus around here).

That's my focus now - getting that content to stop people in their tracks to make them change the consideration method of their purchasing decision - whether that purchasing decision is new at retail, new via D2C, or some used bike - and make their experience better.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

jayski wrote:

Didnt Frodo and Mrs Frodo win Beijing both on Felts? Jan an AR and Emma a ZW?

Kristin Armstrong won Olympic with Felt bike as well.

https://feltbicycles.com/blogs/news/the-greatest-olympic-time-trialist-ever-kristin-armstrong-wins-third-gold-medal

When I started looking for my first TT bike in 2015 it was a "no brainer" for me to go with Felt given my $2000 budget range. The Felt B14 was $1,995 at the LBS (standard price at the time). They also had Cervelo P2 but for $2,500. The B14 had Ultegra, the P2 had 105. So what was I getting for an additional $500? Actually at the time the B14 was by far the best buy for that price range. I actually couldn't understand why people would pick the P2 over the B14. But I sure did see a lot of P2's at local races etc.

I think even today there's still that price difference which still puts the B14 as a better buy IMO.