Can you post some pictures or video of you riding the bike here?

Crap, I'll have to get some.

It probably took me at least 1/2 dozen rides and 10 hours before I felt comfortable first time on a tri bike 3 years ago.

Definitely this. Hopefully it’s as simple as say angling up your bars a bit

Neck and shoulders will definitely take awhile they don’t get used like that ever. But after a few rides it will get a lot better. Just don’t do a long ride before that feels better or it’ll really suck.

Sounds like a similar issue I had when I switched from my P4 to P5. Check your saddle angle....I solved the problem by angling my saddle very slightly upwards.

I got a fit based on retul metrics when I first got my bike and felt the same way. I extended my reach by 20mm and that solved my problem. I think if you feel like you are slipping on your saddle, start there. If you are not slipping on your saddle, then it's worth adjusting the cockpit.

Here are a couple of pictures.





https://mail2.spectrum.net/...6.jpeg?folder=INBOX/


https://mail2.spectrum.net/index.php/mail/viewmessage/getattachment/uniqueId/26409/account/0/filenameOriginal/IMG_1520.jpeg/filenameModified/IMG_1520.jpeg?folder=INBOX/

The pictures don’t show up. It’s asking for a login.

Ok finally here are a couple images

The good news is, you're seat isn't too high! Doesn't mean it's in the right position (because it's not), but it's not too high. Otherwise, that's just a really bad bike fit. You're not reaching anywhere near close to what you should be, which is why you're in so much pain. There's more wrong, but I'm sure many will offer advice. Some good, some bad, but really you should start over with a better fitter.

I hate to say it, but there's a possibility that bike doesn't fit you. It can be made to fit, but it just might be the wrong size.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

I wouldn't be comfortable in that position either. I'd want the entire front cockpit moved forward. Your elbows are directly below your shoulders, which simply isn't comfortable and leads to that feeling of falling over the front of the bike / having to push backwards. Move everything forward at least an inch and see how that feels.

I'd also want the extension bars angled up, rather than horizontal, although that's largely personal preference.

Its a 54. What size up or down if you had to pick?

I wouldn't worry about that right now. If possible, I'd go find a reputable fitter with a fit bike, and start from scratch. Seriously, you're so far off you'd save a lot of time and discomfort by going to someone who knows what they're doing.

Where do you live? Perhaps the ST collective can send you to someone nearby who will help find appropriate fit coordinates.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Omaha Nebraska, nothing showed up on the fitters data base. So yes, if anybody knows of a reputable fitter near please let me know.

I had similar issues this past year when I shortened my cockpit to meet the UCI bike regulations. When the stem was too short (90mm), I felt this awkwardness in the front end, like I was being pushed over and the handling was all wobbly. I fixed it with a few minor modifications to my fit.

-I changed to a slightly longer stem (100mm) to help Get my elbows in front of my shoulders.
-I adjusted my arm pads forward to change the point of contact with my forearms.
-I tinkered with the angle of my extensions until it felt right (for me, they praying mantis position doesn't feel comfortable on my forearms).
-I adjusted saddle tilt (to just under -1deg) as anything beyond that seems to put more weight on the front end of my bike (thereby contributing to a wobbly feel).

that's a really unfortunate fit outcome... Jim is right, start over with a reputable fitter.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Hopefully you did not PAY for that fit? If you did, ask for your money back!

I am a former certified bike fitter and Slowtwitch certified and that my friend is called, "Please give me my money back fit"

^^^^^^this.

OK I thought it was my amateur eye saying 'that doesnt look right at all' good to know an expert sees the same thing....all bike fitters are not made equal

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

#%#%@$%# ! Yes I did pay for it and I also purchased the bike from them.
I guess I will start a thread in search of a fitter close by. I haven't located one in my area (Omaha)

perhaps you got a "reverse" bike fit where they size you down to a bike that's too small for you and then sell it to you

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

i second this

If you can't find anyone near you, look up Dave (FindingFreestyle) on this forum. He does a remote bike fitting service that might be useful (I can't vouch for it since I haven't used it, but it is an option and he appears to know his stuff)

I'm not convinced that your bike is too small. It looks like you are running a short stem and could extend the bars more, but there isn't a huge amount of seatpost showing. Get your fit coordinates sorted out first, then you can see if you can make what you have work for you.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

I may do that if I cant find a fitter near by.
I'm 5'9" shorter legs and a longer torso. Right now the seat is pushed forward about as far as it can go. and the elbow pads are back as far as they can go.
They were actually entertaining a 51 cm.
I don't know much about fitting but I imagine any changes to one will affect everything else.
Can a guy be fitted remotely on a fit bike and then adjust your bike accordingly? or do you need the bike also.

You can post pictures and video here and the filter will tell you what to change on your bike.

Yeah, I saw that saddle position, which is why I said it's not likely in the correct position. What saddle is it?

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Right now the best thing to do is to setup your bike on the trainer and post a video of you riding in aero position. Ideally with tight clothing (your race kit) on. The video should be shot perpendicular to you and at top tube height.

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blog

Its a Specialized Power Comp 143 mm

I think I know the shop - if it's who I think it is, nice folks with fancy certifications and equipment - experience is lacking. All you have to do is watch the owner on his very expensive bike.

I am in the same State with the same issues - couldn't find anyone close. I travel to LA a few times a year so ended up going to see Jim at ERO a few months ago on my last trip out and am doing some follow up with him via e-mail at the moment following my new bike purchase. If you can get to Jim, I would recommend it, but otherwise expand your search to places you might frequently visit.

For those who might know some fitters - he's close to Kansas City and Des Moines if that brings anyone to mind.

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

try a Fizik Mistica, slide it back, and go from there

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I second this. I don't think it's too small. Saddle is all wrong- you need something you can sit on the front of, likely split nose with most of it behind your sit bones. it would have to slide back a ton, like probably 5-8cm from where the saddle nose currently is. So start with a new saddle ASAP. Then you have a silly short stem on your bike AND your forearm pads under your forearms (silly mistake, lol. A small bit forward might be more comfortable). Look where your elbows are relative to the steerer tube, then Google some elite athlete photos (Sebastian Kienle?) Aerobar extensions look too short. If you got a longer stem, it might work, but I'd want the pads closer to under my upper arm, closer to elbow. Stem length might change a lot, 110mm+? What size is on it now? Can you get a better picture of the cockpit? A longer stem might solve some things, but I still think the extensions are going to be too short.

It doesn't look unsalvageable to a solid decent or better. Heck, you might even end up with a few spacers coming out too.

Insert disclaimers here, like my.02, YMMV, etc.

The Power saddle might work just fine for you. You won't know that just yet. Try this...

1. Move your current saddle back 2cm, but keep the height constant.
2. Get a stem with a similar angle to your current stem, but 3cm longer. Get a cheap one because we're not sure this is what you need.
3. Once you've made the changes, take a video of yourself on a trainer pedaling with a race pace type of resistance. Keep the camera/phone steady and about hip high.
4. Post the video here.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Sounds good Jim , i'll get busy on it.

I am similar build - 5'9 - approx 30" inseam - and went with a 51 cm P2, and I have a 120mm stem and good extension and I LOVE that bike. Listen to Jim and you will be amazed I think!

If I didn't like my self fit so much, I would go see him! Incredible amount of knowledge there. His posting is a blessing...

Brent

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

Did it look this bad on the Retul as well? Seriously far off. Shame on whoever did this. I have seen people on stolen bikes on Craigs List that have a better fit.

Yes sir, I feel pretty confident I can get this figured out with his help. If I were closer I would be making an appointment.
Lucky to have people like Jim available for sure!

I was never put on a fit bike. He used my bike on a trainer.

So to me, this is a bit backward. If this is a Retul shop, then put you on the Retul fit bike, find your optimal position, then transfer to the bike (and give you the right size bike, stem, bars, etc) right off the bat. Did you pick the bike and then get fit or did they sell you on the bike?? I am just trying to make sense of this.

Bike shops usually like to sell what they have in stock and worry about making it fit later.

thoroughly understood

I don’t mean to scold. But how can you be on this forum and ignore EVERYTHING I write protecting you from the experience you just had?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

To be fair he's only been on since may. He probably doesn't eve. Know there are articles or such a thing as the front page. How long did it take you to notice there were articles in playboy?

iamuwere wrote:

So to me, this is a bit backward. If this is a Retul shop, then put you on the Retul fit bike, find your optimal position, then transfer to the bike (and give you the right size bike, stem, bars, etc) right off the bat. Did you pick the bike and then get fit or did they sell you on the bike?? I am just trying to make sense of this.

I just want to see the fit report.

Thing I've noticed frequently is that some shops are using fit bikes and Retul and then, strangely, not providing a report. I see the fits - they are terrible - and when I ask the rider about a report I'm told "they wrote down a list of bikes that fit me on a post-it note".

And, of course, there's no consistency or logic in the list provided, and the bikes on the list have big variance in geometry.

The dirty secret of most shops with fit bikes and fit systems is they fall into one of two categories:

• The fit bike and fit equipment is just a charade. They are whiz-bang tools that the fitter doesn't know how to properly use, but that impress the customer, who is supposed to be baffled by the BS.
• The fitter knows they aren't skilled and withholds fit report data lest they have their work scrutinized.

I really believe the majority of shops using fit bikes fall into the first category.

PSA: If you are getting a fit, you should be getting, at a minimum:

• Side profile fit photos (preferably before and after or, alternatively, a capture from the bottom of the pedal stroke and a capture from the top of the pedal stroke)
• Body geometry measurements (one side, both sides, whatever - just measurements captured by the motion capture or by the fitter using a goniometer or dartfish or something)
• Bike measurements (specifically where the contact points are in 3d space - I don't need top tube measurements, head tube length, trail, or whatever else that has nothing to do with the rider's contact points)
• An equipment survey - if I don't know what saddle was used and what the crank length was, the bike measurements aren't very useful

A skilled fitter can properly critique (and constructively use!) a fit that contains that data.

As has been pointed out many times, using good tools doesn't make you a good fitter, but you should expect a good fitter to be using good tools. And the best tool in my arsenal, at the moment, is slow-motion video on my iphone.

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Trent Nix
Owned and operated Tri Shop
F.I.S.T. Advanced Certified Fitter | Retul Master Certified Fitter (back when those were things)

yes. i get that. but i have two responses. three, really.

1. since this is slowtwitch.com/something, how are you never curious to see what this site is other than the /something?
2. this is the first thread about bike fit sessions gone bad? and i've never posted to those threads? with links to articles on the front page?
3. forgetting all of that, my interest isn't in chastising. it's in keeping this from happening. how do i do that? what's your counsel? because, what's the point in writing the articles? and responding to the threads?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm sure for every knucklehead like me you are helping 100 , probably more!

well, now we need to get you out of this mess.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

To be fair...I made an appointment with a Retul fitter and first thing he said on the phone was to bring my bike in...well it's totaled so that was worthless. Although he began licking his chops when I said that since he obviously wants to make a sale.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

let's take a quiz. if you think like me, what are the 5 most important things to remember, to guide you, to insist upon, after you've decided to get a bike fit and you're choosing your fitter?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Well...I read that article...on purpose two weeks ago, so let's see:

Fit Coordinates, List of Bikes that correspond with those fit coordinates, Saddle I'm most comfortable on

Now looking at the article: A video of myself on the fit bike, where I am relative to norms.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

1. I discovered the articles, eventually. I think someone made a stupid joke that there was a front page....:)

2. It might be the first one since May.... Dunno. :) yes, there's a search function...

3. We keep making smart-ass jokes about the articles on the front page! So that people realize there is more to ST than bike porn. I suppose you could add it to the sticky "about this site", but nobody reads that either.

Hey! I've read every fit article! Most of them twice, some three times. The ones on a static tri fit... Probably 4 times. The one on the diamondback fitter probably 10, and the fitter itself, God knows how many times I've played with that.

Mostly, I'm just a smart ass....who occasionally tries to be marginally useful. ... In a smart ass sort of way.

We will get it fixed, there are some very good, and knowledgeable people reaching out to help.
Quite frankly its amazing the support and information on this website and forum.

Those are things to get when you get fit... But you also want to see a portfolio BEFORE you choose your fitter. If you don't like the way they fit people (you don't like the way they look on the bike) why would you go to them?

To Trent's point, I live in the same town as his shop, and I think I know one of the shops he's talking about. I've looked at their fits... And I won't be going there. I've looked at Trent's fits... That's where I will be going in the next week or so.

here are the 5 - in fact we'll make it 6 - things i'd bear in mind, and that i'd ask the fitter. the answer to these questions (rather than whether the fitter is F.I.S.T. or Retul certified) will tell me whether this fitter is worthy of my trust.

1. does the fitter have a fit bike that conforms to best practices in dynamic fit?
2. what drives the fitter's decisions?
3. does the fitter weight the value of orthodoxy? what does the fitter (with precision, using numbers) consider an orthodox position? how does he move the fitter to orthodoxy?
4. what does the fitter give to the customer? what are the deliverables? and do they include a video of the position?
5. how does the fitter generate complete bike solutions from the results of the fit? and, what is the fitter's process for translating the results of the fit to a customer's existing bike, if the customer wants a retrofit of his bike?
6. what saddles and aerobars does the fitter have in stock for me to try during a fit session?

any fitter worthy of your money will answer those questions, with precision, unhesitatingly. any fitter who can't answer those questions isn't worthy of your money.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

@Slowman, maybe you should add a Bike fit (and/or Swim technique) critique subforum, with a sticky thread highlighting your points above (or a link to one of the many articles you've already written on the topic)?

we have a forum here, hidden to you all - well, not hidden, but we don't share the link - just for bike fitters. i spose i COULD just make this a bike fitting forum, for all comers.

is that your preference? just, realize that folks here generally don't like subforums. but obviously we have them when the need arises. this would mean that the threads on bike fit, critique my fit, etc., get moved to that forum. or, only the bike-fit-gone-bad threads, and the help me find a fitter threads, move to that forum.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Some general feedback.

When I have searched for your past articles regarding bike fitting, I have had a hard time finding them all. Unless you know exactly what the name of the article was, it can be hard to find.

You need to make it very accessible to find these articles and very obvious. My suggestion: make a sticky at the top of this forum just for bike fit and then link all the articles in that post. Lock the post so no one can comment. The post stays at the top of the forum and makes it very easy for folks to find all the articles. Update the post anytime you write a new article regarding bike fit.

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blog

nevertheless, i'll take what you say to heart, because if you can't find them others can't. i have a fix in mind.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yes I'm very aware of that link and I often click on it. But I still find it difficult to find what I'm looking for as its usually buried behind another click or 2. And what I'm looking for is usually an article I have already read or skimmed at some point and I just need to re-read it so I know it exists and I usually remember what the title is or have a general idea what the title is, so when I see the title of the article, I know that's what I'm looking for.

Now imagine if you are someone who has never read anything about bike fit or has a very small understanding. Where the heck do they start when they click on that "bike fit" link? I know where to tell someone to start but if you don't have someone telling you where to start, they are going to be very overwhelmed and frustrated. We need to guide the reader and right now, I don't think it does it.

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blog

yes. i see your point. what we really need is an intro to bike fit, or a legend that says, "need this? click here. need that? click here."

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Exactly. A legend, table of contents, directory, or whatever you want to call it. That should sit at the top of a page and then guide the reader to respective articles.

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blog

Why not just a sticky with all different kinds of valuable threads/articles? You could have fit stuff, equipment selection, aero things, maybe even the latest updates on Ashley Horner.

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Strava

The issue I have had is being certain that I can read ALL of the articles in a major section such as "bike fit". I'm the type that just wants to start reading from start-to-finish...especially, when the information spans a long period of time and may "evolve". I like the historical perspective. But, when I select the top level, I do not see "all" lower level articles. So, I have to click on each sub-section and look through all the articles there, and repeat for all. When articles reference each other in chronology (as often yours tend to do) something is lost if you don't follow the sequence.

An organizational approach that I've liked elsewhere is that the top level shows all articles for that level, AND all sub-levels. That way, I can see the list of ALL bike-fit (or training, or products, etc), articles in one place. If I want to restrict to a certain sub-category (such as "Bike fit Equipment and Tools" or "swimming"), then I can do that by selecting only that sub-section.

While you're looking at this, Dan, consider linking certain "product" articles both from the "Products" menu, as well as from the "Bike Fit" menu. Right off the top of my head the Saddles section is very relevant in "Bike Fit". There are probably others, perhaps some of the handlebar articles.

Looking for help. Poor college student who is uneducated but cannot afford a bike fit. Anything helps, its clear you guys are quick to tell people what may help. Thanks.

Ok, its been awhile so I thought I would post a before and after. The first picture is what I presented to all of you back in August. The second picture is where I ended up after Jim from EROS skillfully transformed my position. Great experience working with Jim! I cant thank him enough!
What a pleasure it is to ride in comfort for extended periods.

Not a fitter by any means, but this is atrocious. Not sure what your height is, but as previously stated the frame might not be the right size. Looks like the seat is at a pretty low insert, so if you're looking to go long and low it might be tough. There's simply no shoulder shrug that's going to fix that fit. Look up some of Mat Steinmatz stuff, he has some great insight on fitting. I've never done a pro fit, but I love to read as much as I can and noodle with my position from there. I'd first suggest going back to the bike shop and try to get your money back and perhaps swap frames. Secondly, if they don't give you the refund, perhaps save the money and tinker with the position by putting it on a trainer and adjusting it till it feels right and possesses many of the attributes that fitters talk about.

Also, not a bad place to start is look at some professional fits and ask yourself if your fit resembles it in any sense. Not to say that you should model your fit after a pro, but they have some things that are good boxes to check.



Does the above image have similarities to the image below?


Edit: Just realized this was a really old thread. The new position looks vastly improved compared to the original.

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Team Zoot 2023

Dan, a while back, you collected some information on height + inseam, and resulting stack and reach. Did that result in anything?

I bought my first tri-bike after being on the forum for a well. Thought I did my research and asked all the right questions. First fit? 50mm higher stack than my road bike! I discarded it. Even though the fitter had the credentials, it was all wrong from a guts perspective. 2nd fit was more or less fine (fitter mostly used retul guidances), but I had to stretch out he front end to feel comfortable on it. 1st fitter had a fit bike, 2nd fitter did not. It's really difficult to comb through this. This is also ignoring all the bike shops I went through that just tried to sell me a bike (including one that had a fit bike and had you conduct a FIST road show on). That bike shop just tried to sell me the floor model. A size M shiv (or maybe it was a venge vias) Sworks that I know won't fit me. The person I talked to (no clue who the actual fitter is) say they use the fit bike for post purchase fit.

For a first timer, I think we need something more tactical. I checked the boxes of 1) fit bike 2) FIST 3) have pictures 4) session includes cleat fit 5) have a range of saddles. However.... I simply did not know what I should look for in the pictures. I wanted long and low but almost everyone (fitter) I talked to said that would be uncomfortable (which ended up being not true, for me at least. I also don't think my position is all that aggressive). Regarding the first fitter, I also didn't realize the fitter subscribed to the theory that taller is faster (and all the pros are doing it wrong) because it allows air to flow under your body faster... I think your calculator might result in better results for most people. I am now in the orthodox range of your chart....

I wonder how relevant it is for folks to just start off with the UCI TT template limits for a setup. Assuming you're young enough to hold it, you own the right size frame, and have a good tri/TT saddle.


I haven't done new video, but after initial feedback here for myself.........I went back to the UCI template limits as a starting point.

I've now ridden that way for a while. TT bike, even up to 2 hour rides on a TT setup.....and it feels pretty darn good. And this was 2 hours at a pace a lot harder than someone would ride for needing to run OTB.

I know I can do better in the long run, but the UCI template got me 95% of the way from where I started.

UCI template is a bad way to go for a triathlete, unless that person is one of the lucky ones who fits within that construct.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

I guess I’m lucky then.

I’m comfy and it makes power. We’ll see how aero it is when it gets warmer and I try some practice 10ers.