What do you mean by "aggressive"?

Afternoon all,

Just wondering what would help me get a more aggressive position on the bike, time spent in that position and getting use to it or working on my flexibility.. or both?

As we stand, I've got my aero bars "jacked" up with 25mm spacers (I have ZIPP aero bars) and my back is arched quite some bit with my head well above my shoulder line. This is the position I used for my Ironman last summer and it was fairly comfortable.

That being said, I'm planning to race a half next summer and feel like I could get away with getting a bit more aggressive and possibly dropping those spacers, but last time I was riding like that, my back would absolutely kill me.

I'm not flexible at all, which is something I can definitely work on. Would this alone go a long way? Or do I suck it up and practice riding more aggressively?

Has anyone been through this?

Cheers!
Phil

Without seeing your position to understand your particular limiters (edit: you posted your pic while I was typing this up), here are the main problems I see with athletes unable to get into a lower, more aerodynamic position:

1. Make sure you have a saddle that allows you to sit comfortably on it with your pelvis rotated forward, both in the type of saddle and that it's not too high. If you have to rotate your pelvis to the rear in order to sit on it, then all your drop on the front end has to be achieved via arching your back. This limits the amount of drop you can achieve, is bad for your back, isn't very aerodynamic, and makes it harder to engage glutes.

2. This is going to sound controversial on slowtwitch, but don't just automatically slam your seat forward in order to "open your hip angle." This puts a lot of weight on your arms and shoulders when in an aero position, and for many people the only way to maintain this position for any decent period of time is by raising the front end (taking a bit of pressure off the arms & shoulders again). "Balancing" a position from a fore-aft perspective isn't just for road fits, it's applicable to tri and TT as well, just with different considerations.

3. Unless you have some kind of injury or condition, most people are flexible enough to get into a low, aerodynamic position. I ride with the top of my helmet roughly in line with the highest point of my back, but I can't touch my toes most days. So stretching probably isn't a great use of your time (although there are other good reasons to stretch). Most people run into problems putting out power in that low position, which isn't necessarily about flexibility as much as mobility and core strength. By "core strength" I don't mean being able to do a bunch of situps, I mean being able to engage the various muscles in the trunk, hips, shoulders and legs such that you're able to comfortably hold a low position for the required duration. By "mobility" I mean ensuring that every joint is moving optimally such that you're not putting more stress on an adjacent joint (and it's supporting musculature) and creating a weak link.

4. Don't try to hold an aero position with your forearms angled down, as viewed from the side.

After this there are potentially other limiters that I see less often (crank length, old injuries, etc.), but these are the big things to consider in my opinion.

Personally I would lower it a fee cms for a couple weeks or more Then a couple more and so on

For what it is worth, I don't do yoga. However, I ride in an extremely aggressive position (not my words). For me it came down to training at home or outside in that position. The thing is if you don't use a particular muscle group and then heavily use it for a long duration such as for half-ironman you're bound to have pain. Only by practicing in that position and having those muscles engage over time will the experience become less painful.

Here is my position at 2018 Ironman 70.3 Santa Rosa:

with my eyes

i'm being slightly tongue in cheek, but yea, your saddle is on the high side.

I would suggest trying to get an aerodynamic position, rather than lower.

What saddle are you on and what crank length are you running?

Just by the crappy photo, your cranks look too long.

175, but it's got my power meter :( maybe I could switch it over to the road bike and try lower cranks on the tri. Is swapping out lower cranks a game-changer, or it typically helps?

And the saddle is Fizik Tritone.

I think you would be amazed how much better you would feel on the bike if you went to say 165mm cranks. Before you make the plunge of buying another crank/pm, you can post a video of you riding in aero. Ideally it needs to be filmed at top tube height, perpendicular to you/the bike. Another option is to find a good fitter in your area who has a fit bike and has experience with adjusting for shorter cranks on the fit bike. This way you could at least feel the difference before spending $$. I do think you will like it but its nice to have piece of mind before spending money. Where are you located?

2. This is going to sound controversial on slowtwitch, but don't just automatically slam your seat forward in order to "open your hip angle." .....

your saddle is too high

He's another candidate for the BSH (Big Stupid Helmet) club. You can do better.

I have a few comments based on all the other comments you've gotten. First, we absolutely need a better picture than this:


You don't need to be particularly flexible to get aero.

There are some basic things you can do that will *probably* reduce your drag, but you really need to test. You have a PM, so you can... It's also really good to get a cockpit that is easily adjustable. I'm not sure what you have, but if it's one of the aluminum PD T+ bars, then you are in good shape.

You appear to have long limbs, and if you don't have impingement issues, then don't worry about getting shorter cranks. At least not yet.

A saddle on the low side is better for aero drag.

Besides getting lower in the front, you can also reduce drag by getting narrower (shoulders). Extending the reach usually helps with this. Also, some people do very well bringing the hands up in front of their chin. Experiment.

Keep your head down as much as possible while still being aware of obstacles.

I'll 2nd what vjohn said about saddle position. It can influence a lot of things like weight distribution and muscle engagement. Triathletes tend to have a very forward saddle, but that puts a lot of weight on the arms and also makes it hard to utilize the glutes and hamstrings. Maybe that's better for running afterwards, though?

Since ideally you want your belly and back relaxed as much as possible, I don't believe "core strength" is important. But posture is. Try to minimize any unnecessary tension. Be aware of how the muscles engage during the pedal stroke, and practice relaxing everything but what's needed to make the pedals go around and hold your position.

Good luck! And have fun with it. Tweaking position can be a never ending process, but that's ok if you're enjoying the ride!

I can adjust the front end quite a lot. I feel like when I pull my saddle back, my front end is too far and my elbows get the pressure.

Really? I know the Poc Cerebel tests quite well for some people...

Since ideally you want your belly and back relaxed as much as possible, I don't believe "core strength" is important. But posture is. Try to minimize any unnecessary tension. Be aware of how the muscles engage during the pedal stroke, and practice relaxing everything but what's needed to make the pedals go around and hold your position.

Except being able to relax everything except what's needed to make the pedals go around and hold position takes core strength.

What exactly needs to be strong?

Looking at those part of the issue is you’re maybe on a bike that is a size too small. You’re actually not horribly sitting up in the picture but you’re using every trick on the front end (pads, stem pointing up) to get to enough stack for that position. Your seat post also has to be pushing max it can handle.


If you angle the stem to level and drop your seat some you may be fine because it’s going to pull your arms forward some and get the pads ahead of your seat.

Your seat is definitely too high. You need to adjust that down then start moving the front end

Holy crap how tall are you?

I think you can get it to work, with what I said but yeah if I saw someone on a bike with the stem pointed up like that with the aerobar stack you have along with how far your seatpoat is sticking out id say the frame is too small.

Saddle is *way* too high. Toe down and leg straight at the bottom. Ultimately you'd probably want to drop the saddle 10cm or so, and slide it back in the rails. And drop the bars about 5cm more than the saddle. Your frame will not be too small when you are done!