huddle = boss

Sadly the meet is only on NBC Gold today.
Will be on the Olympic channel tomorrow.

In the men's 10,000 they just passed 2k in 6.04. Maybe Huddle could win there also ;-)

that was a race that was set up perfectly for gwen with huddle ripping 77/78 a lap like clock work. she should have been able to sit in, do no work and kick. huddle kicked like a miler.

It took everything that she had just to hang. She didn't have a kick at the end.

Maybe triathlon was her best sport?

I hope we get to hear from her on this race(talbotcox?). It really looks like something was up with her, not her usual type of race where she finishes stronger than the field. And it wasn't the pace either, she ran that winning time months ago..

I just hope she has not fallen into some runners trap, losing weight, running too much, all the things coaches like to fill your head with. She needs to accept that she is an outlier, and being strong is better than being light for her. I felt looking at her that she was pushing up against that weight thing. But it would be nice to hear from her if it was just an off day at the office, maybe kept up all night with a screaming baby...

I haven't seen the result, but if you would have told me she would come in and run fast times early and then when the volume of marathon training actually catches up to you, "flat line", I would have said of course, that's likely to happen.

I mean at some point going from what I think we can say very conservative mileage to what she thinks is the demands of competition, it's a big difference iwth her. In fact a hard leap to make, and I'm guessing she's probaly 80% of the way there if I had to guess. I dont follow her mileage or social media posts, so I have no clue what her actual weekly volume is. I know she's a devoted person to the sport she is applying to and understands what it takes and is willing to do everything to meet those demands of competition. I saw that in her development and life change post London.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Increasing mileage for the marathon, she isn’t going to be fresh every race. 7th seems decent to me.

I didn't watch, but looking at the splits, she was doing well until about 8.4K, then she dramatically fell off pace.

Molly's last 1600 was 4:38. That's moving at the end of a 10k. I'm actually super impressed with that time from Gwen in a tactical race that was really won from 8.4k to the finish.

except that it wasn't tactical. it was follow huddle clicking off 78s and then watching huddle drop the hammer at the end. how could you possibly call it tactical when it was the same nice pace for miles? you are "super impressed" with a 32:24 when she ran a lot faster than than that a few weeks ago and faster than that on the roads in australia in full tri training mode? you sound like the type that isn't impressed by much because that was nothing to be impressed by.

Could be the case. She was freakishly sninny even during Tri times. I don't know if ehe is too low noe or if it works for her.

But I do know that male winner Lopez Lomong would also qualify as a 400m guy (bodytype wise).

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

Gwen did 31:55 two and a half months ago when she won the Stanford Invitational, that would have gotten her second yesterday and I don't think anyone would have been disappointed with that performance. So 29 seconds faster then. Seems her first two races were very promising and she's not done as well since then. Maybe an off day, maybe flat from upping her mileage without enough of a taper? Hopefully the higher mileage she's doing now will pay off down the road and not be counterproductive, it sounds like she's being trying to do a pretty fast ramp up to the higher mileage.

Plus it is only 9 months since she had a baby with a very difficult birth!

Without question, Gwen is a superb runner and the hands-down SlowTwitch sentimental favorite on her current quest. I wish her the best. But I am not changing my original prediction since she first announced her plans...she won't even qualify for the Olympic marathon let alone medal. And I will be happy to eat those words if she can prove otherwise.

Totally concur.

I'm bewildered why she would give up being Queen of triathlon to be an also ran in running.

Having said that, the women's triathlon races are more exciting without Gwen...although now it has become the Flora show.

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Advocating for research & treatment for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).
http://www.meaction.net/about/what-is-me/

"Suck it up, Buttercup"
(me, to myself, every day)

The purported rationale for switching to running is that it got her off the ITU circuit at a time she wanted to start a family - and be able to train at home to be near her family. With her current sponsors, that might be a wise decision at least up until the Olympic trials. If that's all she wanted then good for her, but if she thought in her heart of hearts that it would translate to a medal and continuing running lucre then it may prove to be have been a mistake.

Bone thin ..
https://www.instagram.com/p/BjqvQxTA-D0/

Eating low calories and low quality food (in n out) recipe for disaster

Is she eating poor quality foods? I would say the opposite based on their setup.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Even though the weather has been mild here in the upper Midwest the last few days; it’s not unusual for people to hit very fast times at those early season meets that they then struggle to get for the rest of the spring/summer especially at a championship. Stephanie Bruce in 2017 ran a similar Stanford invite 10k time31 high and then went to USATFs and ran a 32:45ish.

That's a great comparison. Not. It was over 100 degrees in Sacramento last year!

A not joke; that’s fantastic. You don’t often get to interact with someone whose comedy stylings are on par with Borat.

I stand by my assertion; those west coast early season 10ks can be sources of good times.

I agree she's learning to run in a tactical manner where the pace is flipping back and forth waiting for a kicker's race. All a learning process.

She's been in mammoth, which is not her home.

I read somewhere she was doing some 100 mile weeks in Mammoth recently and carrying a lot of fatigue which I'm sure affected this 10k. That is a lot more mileage than she was doing as a triathlete.

Like I said, I hope we get to hear another longish interview from her on what she thought of the race. It looks like we have all come up with all the good perfect excuses for her for getting dropped and losing 6 places, I just want to know if any of them are actually legit...(-;

For all we know it could have been a great race for her, maybe she did a hard 10 miler the day before. But then we have to start asking questions about the coaching I guess.. It was a pretty big race, I would hope that any coach would have rested her for it to make sure she got a good result. This bullshit of training through biggish races is really disappointing to athletes, I see no good whatsoever from this strategy..

No way she did a hard 10 miler the day before, even in the heaviest of training she won't be doing stuff like that.

I know for a fact she was in Mammoth doing hard workouts last week at altitude with Shalane. I have photos of it. She may have done some easy stuff for a few days leading into this to freshen a small amount but it's obvious she has a lot of accumulated fatigue right now, which is exactly as it should be. She's behind the best women and if she has any chance at catching up in time to make the Olympic squad she has to run a crapton right now. This was not that important of a race for her development.

I was passing along an explanation I have read in several places, hence the word "purported." Perhaps running at Mammoth is easier than living out of a suitcase moving from training camp to training camp and traveling around the world for ITU races. But if it isn't and her family cannot be with her, then I would agree that the decision to change sports makes no sense.

Somewhat scary photo having seen so many photos of Jorgensen. I'm assuming it's mainly just the angle. Since I'm just a slow old amateur trigeek, if I ever run a hard session on that beautiful track, I'm going to enjoy a nice big meal after I'm done. :)

She has stated that she switched to running full time because she enjoyed it more and wanted a new challenge. Other people have conjectured that baby was a factor. Andrew Talansky has pointed to family as a factor for his switch to triathlon. In any case I bet she and her coach thought she would have had a better result otherwise they wouldn’t have done the race. But maybe not, maybe they just wanted to see how she did coming out of altitude.

If it turns out it was not her best sport - WOW...

Olympic Gold Medalist, lots of ITU wins, a long win streak. It would be amazing to see her be better at anything compared to what she did in triathlon.

Maybe she just had a bad day, it happens to athletes, they even have periods of poor results/training. I feel that we sometimes forget that when we watch outliers.

Was only a few months ago she ran an incredible indoor 5k and everyone was reacting completely different.

She also did just come down from a high altitude camp and she is very early into this new training process so she is most likely still finding out how she responds best, etc.

Agreed. These races are important but they are not the goal for Gwen. These results are good for her as she gains more motivation and experience for what she needs.

This 10k was a championship style race. The races she did well in the past were not this style. Success in Championship style races require experience, which she is trying to learn. When she gets to Marathon Trials and possible 10k Olympic trials, it will be the same style of racing.

Also, the competition was much better at this race and if she was off her game by the slightest %, it would be shown.

The one downside that i continue to hear is the obsession with a certain mileage. Jerry's group is known for mileage and it didn't take long for her to ramp up the mileage. I just wonder if that jump from her low mileage approach to a goal of 100+MPW will make her or break her. The videos we've seen always show her rolling that achillies/PF.

Gwen will be fine. She'll continue to get better. I'm rooting for her

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

agreed. Letsrun has an interview with her,
“I feel like I’m doing marathon training,” Jorgensen said. “This past month, I was up at altitude in Mammoth Lakes and the goal was to just try to build those miles and get that fatigue in the legs, the marathon fatigue.”

goal achieved I guess ;-)

trials on Feb 29 and Gwen still needs a qualifier, this race would not have been on my list of races to peak for, either..

interesting on that list of qualifiers, I see Julia Webb at 2:44..

She also had a baby between sports, so there are more variables then we see from within the performance. Everyone responds to pregnancy differently and I know she struggled a lot post partum with her training.

I would agree on the downside you mentioned as well. Another potential problem area I see is her lack of really any muscle mass. Simply going off what I see visually and what I understand what she is doing for mileage, I worry a bit about her durability. IMO she needs some muscle mass to be able to sustain that type of mileage. Especially now that that great majority of her aerobic training is now weight bearing with running as it wasn't previously. I think she is treading a fine line, but that is what comes with performing at that level. I just feel that she has always had a very good grasp on these areas and might be letting go a bit too much.

I think what you meant to say was "SPOILER - USA CHAMPIONSHIP 10K RESULTS"

Instead of being this guy.

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<The Dew Abides>

If people do not want to read about sport, they should stay away from sites where sports are discussed.

Spoiler is so 1995

There's way too many people that would get smoked by Gwen talking smack in here.

So she ran a 10k championship race with one qualifier...probably not smart to be honest. Unless it's more about championship stress than not. She ran at half-marathon Championships and 10k Championships...did she qualify for the half or was that a sponsor exemption. Both times it rained and the surface was wet. She again did not wear spikes on the track, and being a wet surface, that could have helped. Either way, the time she put up would smoke all of us.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

Are you sure about that? I saw a post showing the Nike Fly 4% she wore. They we're spiked.

https://runningmagazine.ca/...usatf-championships/

Good look! Didn't see those when I saw the post originally. Been awhile since I've used track spikes...but are folks really using big shoes now?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

This is all wrong. You do not win a marathon carrying extra weight. She’s already at a huge disadvantage for being taller than most.

I would almost say her biggest disadvantage is in the fact that she's attempting this in a 3 year olympic window. I just want to see how she and her team take her from a very low/moderate run volume that led to huge itu success to what marathon mileage demands of competition *usually* dictate. I think if she makes it through all of this healthy on the start of the marathon a bigger success than the actual result.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I would agree that carrying extra weight will not win you a marathon, but I never said anything about carrying extra weight. There is a difference between carrying extra weight and having a bit more muscle mass. People tend to miss this part.

I would argue that carrying a bit more muscle mass will provide her with more durability in her training, especially being a female. Especially when she is trying to go from a moderate mileage load to a higher mileage load that so many have expressed in this thread.

I've worked with enough female athletes and seen their performance increase with putting on just a bit of muscle mass to have confidence in this as well. Far too many times have I see the "I cannot gain weight" mindset that you have rear its ugly face and leave the athlete injured on the sidelines on race day.

It is not wrong as I have seen this pattern improve female athletes marathon performances.

You might not win when big but you can train big. From what I've read the east African's put on a fair amount of weight in their off season.

You will be faster with 5 extra pounds than with 1 pound underweight. And I mean underweight not based on some silly bmi chart or something like that but being below what your individual lowest performance weight is.

You need to be fit and light. But at a certain point everything just falls apart. Of course you need to be very lean to get to that point. So it is not all too common.

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

And I am confident that one of the best coaches in the world with a large backing had a better idea of what the right weight and muscle makeup is for her than random posters on an Internet forum.

True. And I think we can trust Jerry that he trains and prepares her in the best possible way.

It only drives me crazy when people think the lighter is the better. That only works to some extent. It has nothing particularly to do with Gwen though. I guess she is fine and wouldn't be so strong otherwise.

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10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40

She runs well and wins the 10k at Stanford, and folks say she needs to race the 10k and not run the marathon. So, she trains like a true marathoner and comes to a 10k with high altitude high mileage in her legs and finishes not that far back from one of the sickest last 1600m’s seen courtesy of Huddle, and folks think Gwen is off track. Yes, Gwen said she’s disappointed, but it was good race and I don’t understand these sort expectations - no one ever expected Haile, Bekele, Kipchoge to jump back to the track after taking on the marathon (Mo has jumped back and forth with much criticism of his performances in the marathon and back on the track). Yes, Gwen needs speed and the ability to change gears midrace to race an Olympic marathon, but she also needs the strength that comes with the mileage - she needs to cut herself some slack but more importantly, her coach needs to think of her mental well being when choosing races because having her go head to head with Huddle in the 10k after her Mammoth stint may have been naive in that regard.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

her coach needs to think of her mental well being when choosing races because having her go head to head with Huddle in the 10k after her Mammoth stint may have been naive in that regard. //

This is what I was alluding to, if you are going to race someone, then prepare them for that particular race. Doesnt mean changing the training plan much or mileage, just make sure she is mostly rested and has a decent chance at a good race. Sure she fell off Molly's scorching pace, but she also let 5 more ladies run away from here too, and barley out kicked the next one.


I just think for"some" athletes, it is not really doing anything positive to throw them into races broken down and tired. But there are some that can do fine with that mentally, they actually thrive on it. I just dont know where Gwen's head is in this new sport of hers. I would tend to pick races that she could be in the hunt for, which so far seems to be the case. Maybe she was rested for this race, I dont really know, but sounds like perhaps not too much..

Nobody expected her to beat Huddle (although post Boston and the Mini it was possible she wasn't going to be on) but Huddle wasn't the only other woman in the race. She lost to Rochelle Kanuho. When the race really began with 1000 to go, she had nothing and the first 9000 couldn't have been run more perfectly for her with Huddle in the front running metronomic 77s with zero surges. That's not exactly a WR pace and it completely zapped her. I get it that she trained through the race and she has almost 2 years more to get things right but the way she got dropped in the 10K (not just by Huddle) and the way she got dropped in Pittsburgh by B level Americans indicates a regression after her mind-blowing 15:15 debut in February. She's with probably the best coach in the world so, if anyone can figure things out, it will be Shoemaker. It will be interesting to see if Shoemaker has her run a fall marathon or not.

If you want to be the best, you have to race the best.
Of course you should race against the best competition you can get. You learn nothing from winning races with slow runners.

How good will Gwen be as a runner? We do not know yet.
But we know that it has been done before.
Ingrid Kristiansen was a top xc-skiing racer before she changed to pure running.
Her times are still pretty amazing.

I think it is cool that Gwen is trying to do something she loves.

Her indoor 5,000m was impressive but also not that surprising when you imagine here tri training.

I don’t understand all of the racing. Becoming a marathoner takes time. These short camps followed by races, looking st Pittsburg and now USA Champs, is possibly a poor strategy. Again, citing the best marathoners since the 70’s, they go away for 5+ months to build their base strength. Lydiard’s approach is the obvious example, but how does Gwynn’s approach compare to Deena’s under Vigil? I see glaring issues, do you guys?

http://www.coolrunning.com/...omy-of-a-medal.shtml

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Again I never made any mention about her coach and his involvement in this, it was just an observation of a *potential* worry from afar based on my experiences coaching female runners without any real hard factual information. And yes even some of the best coaches in the world make mistakes sometimes. At that level of competition even doing an extra 200 on the track in one training session could lead to injury or problems, I've seen it happen.

But I would never tell a female athlete that you cannot carry extra weight. Weight management is a very tricky topic and you need to be very careful in what you say and how you address it to athletes.

Gwen’s best sport is triathlon. I view her move to running as a way to further her brand, make money, and spend more time with her family. I wish her the best but I don’t think she can parlay a world-class run leg in triathlon into anything better than elite level as a runner. I hope she comes back to triathlon where she truly is world class.

I am pretty sure she is still breast feeding as well, which will cause fatigue.

I was watching the race track side with someone who has also seen a lot of track races and we both agreed that Gwen looked tired from the gun. She just had very little pep and looked to be fighting the pace even in the early miles. If you look at Huddle or Hall or any of the women who finished ahead of her, Gwen has a lot of excessive movement in her upper body which is only going to become a bigger issue as she moves to the half and full marathon. With the excessive shoulder and arm movement, she's going to use a lot of extra energy. She still has some work to do but she has made great progress with her 15:15/31:55.

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Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

She stopped breast feeding 2 weeks prior. I'm sure it had some effect though including her own diet and also emotionally (positive or negative?).

Here's the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9i3xld9ABk

Interesting result for her.

I would have thought she would have done "better", but every race and situation is different. Some said she ran faster, a few months ago, and that's true, but this was a championship meet (place matters more), perhaps a bit of extra nerves, and from what I heard it was not ideal conditions - high humidity and windy!

Also it's clear that Gwen has been in the process of gradually upping the mileage and she took no real down-time or significant taper, to run in this race. It sounded like it was a bit of a "last minute decision".

It's another step, but it's an important step. Running a great 10K - be it on the track or the road, is a great step up point and indicator of marathon potential. Note, I did say "potential" - beyond 20K in a marathon, is where things really start to happen, so even having a great 10K time, even a 1/2 marathon, time is not indicative that the marathon will be a slam-dunk for a runner! It's a bit of a different beast.

Will Gwen be great at it? We'll not know really, until she has had a couple of goes at a full marathon. She probably knows that herself. Thus, all you can do is commit to the preparation as best as you can.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you look at Huddle or Hall or any of the women who finished ahead of her, Gwen has a lot of excessive movement in her upper body which is only going to become a bigger issue as she moves to the half and full marathon. With the excessive shoulder and arm movement, she's going to use a lot of extra energy


Yes - she reminds me a bit of . . . Paula Ratcliffe! :-)

Now not saying Gwen will get to that level, but Paula was a bit ungainly, but on the track, the road or cross-country, it did not seem to slow her down at all!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Here's the interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9i3xld9ABk //

Thanks for that link, so pretty much what I thought it would be. She was a little flat( could be several reasons already expressed here), and she made a few tactical errors in the group that caused her to burn matches she shouldn't have. Coming off breast feeding may or may not have been a factor, just throw it into another cause for being flat.


SO not a great or bad race really for what it was. I liked that she said she would love to run that exact race over again right now, tells me she has a handle on what made her flat and the mistakes tactically that can easily be fixed. I just hope she does whatever it takes to be well rested before the next race, whatever it is. Sounds like it will be on the road now, so tactics are not such a big deal(postion) but pace changes will be..IT would be nice for her psyche to get another good result in the bank with her early season ones. You can see she feels like she "should" be winning most these races, or at the very least sprinting for the wins.. I think she should be too...

.... another race, this time 2min back from Huddle at Beach to Beacon 10k.

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

Maybe she was practicing marathon pace today.... but in seriousness, I just wonder if she needs to hunker down for a while with no races - take a page from the Deena/Vigil playbook: http://www.coolrunning.com/...omy-of-a-medal.shtml

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

She mentioned in an instagram post about the race that.."I have loads of work in front of me but I think I'm starting to learn how to run a 10k with marathon tired legs." Obviously, being a competitor and professional, she is looking to place the best she can at every race but I believe these races are for her to get used to running at speed on tired legs instead of the goal of winning.

Yup. Keeping sponsors happy. Increasing quality in training with the odd race. And learning every time.

Coach Jerry is the man, he'll have Gwen peaking for her fall marathon. Guessing it'll be New York again given she hasn't announced it yet. (Vs Chicago/Berlin that everyone has announced)

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/nbrowne1