Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6?

May 16, 18 10:00

Post #1 of 34 Views: 4830

I raced my first two triathlons last season - Lake Raystown 70.3 and Savageman 70.0.

If I remember correctly, I couldn't walk down stairs very easily for the first three days after Savageman, but after a week I was fine. Looking back through my training log, I Everested 13 days after Savageman.

Savageman this year happens to be 12 days before my first ever full distance triathlon (IMMD).

At first it sounded like a bad idea to me. The more I think about it, the open water swim would be good practice. Plus the race is a lot of FUN. I feel like I could shut it down for a week immediately after Savageman for a six-seven recovery / taper. Then maybe two-three days of light activities so I am not stale for the full.

FWIW I am MOP and my goals are to come prepared, have fun, hit my realistic targets, and finish strong.

Is this a very bad idea to do both races being that they are 12 days apart?

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Last edited by: bluestacks867: May 16, 18 11:33

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 ten days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 10:01

Post #2 of 34 Views: 4824

Probably. Both will leave you pretty beat up afterwards.

I still lapped everyone on the couch!

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:03

Post #3 of 34 Views: 4769

No
and
Yes

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:06

Post #4 of 34 Views: 4765

bluestacks867 wrote:

I raced my first two triathlons last season - Lake Raystown 70.3 and Savageman 70.0.

If I remember correctly, I couldn't walk down stairs very easily for the first three days after Savageman, but after a week I was fine. Looking back through my training log, I Everested 13 days after Savageman.

Savageman this year happens to be 12 days before my first ever full distance triathlon (IMMD).

At first it sounded like a bad idea to me. The more I think about it, the open water swim would be good practice. Plus the race is a lot of FUN. I feel like I could shut it down for a week immediately after Savageman for a six-seven recovery / taper. Then maybe two-three days of light activities so I am not stale for the full.

FWIW I am MOP and my goals are to come prepared, have fun, hit my realistic targets, and finish strong.

Is this a very bad idea to do both races being that they are 10 days apart?

I feel like if you could summit Everest 12 days after a race - you'll be fine.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:07

Post #5 of 34 Views: 4762

Did you climb Mt Everest?

Depends on what your fitness is going into Savageman. Super fit for hilly terrain? You can use it as a dress-rehearsal if you don't race it. Since Maryland it is your first IM, I'd focus on that. Respect the distance.

Last edited by: jdais: May 16, 18 11:34

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:17

Post #6 of 34 Views: 4741

I wouldn't try it, but I wouldn't do half the stuff other people on here do.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:23

Post #7 of 34 Views: 4732

Considering your goals for IMMD aren't a podium, KQ or a time based goal, then do whatever you think will be the most enjoyable to YOU. I wouldn't expect you to have your best possible performance at IMMD with an 80 mile race 10 days before, so if that's really important then consider skipping savageman or doing one of the shorter races at savageman.

Personally, I wouldn't do Savageman, I put a lot of effort, time and money into IM training/racing and wouldn't sacrifice that for a 'warm up' race. I'd pick a half that's 4-6 weeks out.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:27

Post #8 of 34 Views: 4723

I'm in to see what other people have to say, but it is my completely amateur opinion that many folks put waaaay too much emphasis on taper and take their foot off the gas pedal prematurely. 12 days isn't enough to recover from a 6-7 hour training session, seriously? :-)

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:35

Post #9 of 34 Views: 4701

Thanks for the advice and feedback everyone. My initial post stated that the races were 10 days apart, but they are actually 12 days apart. Not a huge difference but I made that correction now. I wish I could count better...

The advice is appreciated.

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [patricio2626] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 11:57

Post #10 of 34 Views: 4666

patricio2626 wrote:

I'm in to see what other people have to say, but it is my completely amateur opinion that many folks put waaaay too much emphasis on taper and take their foot off the gas pedal prematurely. 12 days isn't enough to recover from a 6-7 hour training session, seriously? :-)

You’re not gaining a whole lot of fitness in 2-3 weeks before an ironman so keeping the gas pedal floored close to your event isn’t helping much. Of course, you can recover in 12 days but taper isn’t just completely shutting things down. I’m sure OP will be fine doing both if he chooses to

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

BlackStumpGumby

May 16, 18 12:01

Post #11 of 34 Views: 4661

Given your goals I'd say, why not? IMMD might turn out to be a long day for you as you'll just be recovering from Savageman. I could see the second half of the IMMD marathon being pretty unpleasant.

That said, I can't get my head around training for these two races. I've done both SM70 and IMMD (but not the same year). About the only thing these two have in common is they are both in Maryland. When I train for Savageman it's all about lots of climbing on the bike and hilly running. When training for IMMD it's all about staying aero. I'm not sure how you train for both without compromising both. I suppose if it were me I'd still make the hills a priority. Hills will be good prep for slogging through IMMD's wind, though not good prep for staying in aero mile after mile after mile. My neck gets sore just thinking about it.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [patricio2626] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 12:11

Post #12 of 34 Views: 4651

patricio2626 wrote:

I'm in to see what other people have to say, but it is my completely amateur opinion that many folks put waaaay too much emphasis on taper and take their foot off the gas pedal prematurely. 12 days isn't enough to recover from a 6-7 hour training session, seriously? :-)

I'm just curious is you are familiar with Savageman?? If you RACE Savageman that's not a 6-7 hour training day recovery... And if you have been training for a flat race like IMMD then you are not ready for Savageman and it's not an easy recovery. Tapers are very individual things--seriously!

To the OP--decide what your goals are and look at what your training has been and will be leading into the races--as I stated above and the poster above mentioned--other than being in Maryland these races couldn't be more different... If you want to do both then do both--if you want to KQ then maybe think about just doing a solid training day two weeks out instead!

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [BlackStumpGumby] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 12:25

Post #13 of 34 Views: 4631

I'd say "it depends"! I have done quite a few races just before or just after the 70.0 Savagmans, with last year trying to follow Savage with IM Chattanooga the following week. As mentioned, the back half of the the ironman marathon was pretty brutal, but I couldn't tell you if it was due to fatigue or the heat.

I'm totally a victim of totally over living between the races with life rather than recovery, so if you can take time to take care of yourself between the two events I'd say go for it. You never know if you'll get to do Savage again, which is why I keep going back. I can't see how training on hills would be a detriment to your IM Maryland prep either.

Josh

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 12:34

Post #14 of 34 Views: 4616

Can it be done? Yes.
Should it be done? No...Hell No!

Did you not think about this before shelling out $800 for IM Maryland? Expect to bonk hard there. Lionel Sanders was quoted as saying it takes him a month to recover from a marathon. I wouldn’t do a 70.3 closer than 30 days apart due to recovery and optimizing performance. I swear people have way more money than sense around here. It makes me think it’s some kind of perverse backdoor brag about who has the most cash to piss away, rather than making it about training and getting better. Then I realize how many have the same mindset as you. Why? “Why not” is not a good answer.

Last edited by: mwanner13: May 16, 18 12:38

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [joshjan] [ In reply to ]

BlackStumpGumby

May 16, 18 12:35

Post #15 of 34 Views: 4612

joshjan wrote:

You never know if you'll get to do Savage again, which is why I keep going back.

Josh

This is such a good point. Every year I worry that it will be the last. Do it when you can. Of course, I would not be shocked if IMMD went away as well though there are alternatives to IMMD. There are no true alternatives to Savageman, at least not in the US.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 13:00

Post #16 of 34 Views: 4581

bluestacks867 wrote:

Thanks for the advice and feedback everyone. My initial post stated that the races were 10 days apart, but they are actually 12 days apart. Not a huge difference but I made that correction now. I wish I could count better...

The advice is appreciated.

at this point, people are more interested in what you meant by "everested"

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 13:12

Post #17 of 34 Views: 4563

^ Ya. You either "ever rested" or "Everested"...

and if you did the second one - this thread is going to take an entirely different turn. IDC what you do as far as your racing schedule - I want to know if you made it up there, how many bottles of 02 it took, who was your Sherpa guide, what the current cost is, and how fun base camp is.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 13:27

Post #18 of 34 Views: 4554

mwanner13 wrote:

Lionel Sanders was quoted as saying it takes him a month to recover .

That's because Lionel Sanders gives it his all and basically kills himself in races. Its all in the pacing. If you don't care about PRing and just want to finish both races then you could pace your first race appropriately and be fine for your second one. Different people have different goals when it comes to races, you may want to PR and optimize performance for each race while others may just want to participate and have fun.

2x Deca-Ironman World Cup (10 Ironmans in 10 days), 2x Quintuple Ironman World Cup (5 Ironmans in 5 days), Ultraman, Ultra Marathoner, and I once did an Ironman.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [Peterszew] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 14:59

Post #19 of 34 Views: 4506

Peterszew wrote:

at this point, people are more interested in what you meant by "everested"

Sorry for the confusion. When I said Everested I meant the bike event. So 13 days after last year's Savageman 70.0 I did a solo ride, 140 miles with 29,000 feet elevation gain (mountain repeats). https://everesting.cc/

I wanted to point out that I was recovered enough to do that, not comparing it to a full triathlon, because until I do a full I have no clue how they compare.

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 15:17

Post #20 of 34 Views: 4485

bluestacks867 wrote:

Peterszew wrote:

at this point, people are more interested in what you meant by "everested"

Sorry for the confusion. When I said Everested I meant the bike event. So 13 days after last year's Savageman 70.0 I did a solo ride, 140 miles with 29,000 feet elevation gain (mountain repeats). https://everesting.cc/

I wanted to point out that I was recovered enough to do that, not comparing it to a full triathlon, because until I do a full I have no clue how they compare.

I would argue that ride is harder than a full

Hah!

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 17:17

Post #21 of 34 Views: 4439

You should definitely do it. And train like a madman with no rest between the two.
Great idea.

While we are at it should we put a wager on IM Maryland?

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [mwanner13] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 17:22

Post #22 of 34 Views: 4434

Quote:

Should it be done? No...Hell No!

Without knowing more about his training this isn't as absolute as you make it out to be

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: May 16, 18 17:23

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 16, 18 17:48

Post #23 of 34 Views: 4409

All the VTSMTS (now Kinetic Multisport) races have an aquabike option, or as I prefer to think about it, all the fun without the run. That would leave you not quite so beat up before IMMD.

I skimmed the "everesting times," many of which are similar in length to IM duration. If you have the same level of fitness and prep as last year, you may be durable enough to do both back to back. If you do though, you may want to take your race goals down a couple of notches.

If you get into IMMD and need to DNF, it's not the end of the world and you would have learned more about yourself. The biggest concern I have about the proposal is the extent to which it creates a high risk for injury.

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 18 6:21

Post #24 of 34 Views: 4334

Fishbum wrote:

You should definitely do it. And train like a madman with no rest between the two.
Great idea.

While we are at it should we put a wager on IM Maryland?

That's right, he should taper for weeks, or even months. You know, 'because you can't build fitness in the last weeks' and stuff. And the world is flat.

Last edited by: patricio2626: May 17, 18 6:22

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 18 8:34

Post #25 of 34 Views: 4253

bluestacks867 wrote:

Peterszew wrote:

at this point, people are more interested in what you meant by "everested"

Sorry for the confusion. When I said Everested I meant the bike event. So 13 days after last year's Savageman 70.0 I did a solo ride, 140 miles with 29,000 feet elevation gain (mountain repeats). https://everesting.cc/

I wanted to point out that I was recovered enough to do that, not comparing it to a full triathlon, because until I do a full I have no clue how they compare.

Well Sir, I am no longer impressed with this thread. When you climb Everest - please post again. 29,000 ft divided by 140 miles is only 200 feet of elevation per mile. Unimpressed (I tried to present that in a way to make it look very unimpressive even though holy sh*t - I would die - well done)

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [SankaCoffee] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 18 8:51

Post #26 of 34 Views: 1027

SankaCoffee wrote:

I tried to present that in a way to make it look very unimpressive

Haha! Actually you could go one better and point out that I coasted for 70 free miles.

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 18 10:20

Post #27 of 34 Views: 1001

I broke my foot at SavageMan last year, it could have happened at any race, it was just bad luck and kept me from running a race I wanted to run in October. It sucked but would have sucked more if I had to DNS my first Iron because of it. I will be racing 50-54 at IMMD this year so if you are in my age group forget what I just wrote and race away!

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 18 18:13

Post #28 of 34 Views: 955

Hell Yes !

Throw down hard. Do epic shit.

Should be everyone's motto.

If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [dwreal] [ In reply to ]

May 17, 18 18:20

Post #29 of 34 Views: 951

The crazy ass just texted me....He just signed up for Savageman!!!!!

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [SankaCoffee] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 18 7:13

Post #30 of 34 Views: 914

SankaCoffee wrote:

Well Sir, I am no longer impressed with this thread. When you climb Everest - please post again. 29,000 ft divided by 140 miles is only 200 feet of elevation per mile. Unimpressed (I tried to present that in a way to make it look very unimpressive even though holy sh*t - I would die - well done)

Well, true, but in reality that means 29,000 feet in 70 uphill miles, or 400 feet gain per climbing mile for 70 miles. 70 miles of 8% grade. Ouch.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 18 7:44

Post #31 of 34 Views: 899

Kind of depends how you taper I suppose. Lots of folks taper for a race and then peak after the race rather than during the race. They actually feel flat race day. Racing Savageman 12 days early might help you peak properly for IMMD if you don't crush yourself at Savageman.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [cmd111183] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 18 8:01

Post #32 of 34 Views: 889

Thank you for the advice everyone. It opened my eyes to a lot more factors than I initially discovered on my own. I took all the downsides, upsides, personal knowledge of my own history and decided to do it and have fun. My wife is actually excited too. She had to miss it last year because our youngest child was too young. We are going to have a mini vacation and this year the kids are now old enough to stay at their grandparent's house so my wife and I can enjoy the weekend.

kny, your math was spot on. for people more interested in my Everest expedition and oxygen tank consumption, here is the strava data https://www.strava.com/activities/1209510479
I hope to see you there with the stomp rockets again, that was too cool.

and see you there, josh!

"If it costs you 30 minutes at Maryland so what" -dwreal

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [BlackStumpGumby] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 18 8:11

Post #33 of 34 Views: 882

BlackStumpGumby wrote:

joshjan wrote:

You never know if you'll get to do Savage again, which is why I keep going back.

Josh

This is such a good point. Every year I worry that it will be the last. Do it when you can. Of course, I would not be shocked if IMMD went away as well though there are alternatives to IMMD. There are no true alternatives to Savageman, at least not in the US.

I do think this is a legitimate concern.

A few other points of consideration:

This is the first ever running of the new SavageMan 80. Just like with the very first SavageMan 70 back in 2007, no one really knows what to expect. There isn't even a strava segment yet for the Aarons Run ascent of Big Savage Mountain; that's how unknown elements of this new course are. There will be definitely bragging rights for being the first to do this crazy new 80. Not to mention, real risk that this event is one and done, so do it now or do it never.
It's the hilly 13.1 mile run that will impact your IMMD, not the bike so much (says I from my couch). Do the aquavelo if truly concerned about being at 100% perfect taper for IMMD.
I would wager the 67 mile SavageMan 80 bike is actually easier to keep at desired power than the old SavageMan 70 bike. The new course is essentially 4 very hard and extended Cat 1/2 climbs - but long climbs that you can set your power at and keep it there, IM style. The old bike was one very hard, extended Cat 1 climb, and then numerous shortish, insanely steep Killer Miller type climbs that you had no choice but to go over your power threshold on or fall over from lack of momentum. So, I'd say the new course is more conducive to "training day" effort than the old one. But, I don't know. I could be wrong. The new 80 bike course is crazy nuts.
In the long run SavageMan 80 will be more memorable to you than IMMD. Less glamorous maybe and a far smaller crowd at finish line, but pretty sure when you look back in 2023 at your accomplishments in 2018, that you'll have more vivid memories of SavageMan.

Re: Is it a bad idea to do Savageman 80.0 twelve days before Maryland 140.6? [bluestacks867] [ In reply to ]

May 18, 18 8:51

Post #34 of 34 Views: 866

If you are a Male and 60-64 years old it's a wonderful plan!

Mike

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