May I respectfully ask/suggest that you alter the title to this thread.

I'm no sensitive person who gets offended at everything but the use of the phrase Final Solution is one that should be banished to this history books only.

I will. But may I respectfully suggest that you are ridiculously sensitive.

Now that you have changed the subject, the following answer works:

"Flying Sharks. With Lasers."

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Can you guys fill me in on why “final solution” is a sensitive word choice? I don’t get it.

It has to do with the Nazis and Jews. Bad time in history.

To the OP - I was wondering the same thing last week, why not only track records -per course-, since all courses are so different (terrain, etc). But I didn't bother mentioning it since I guess they do the same sort of thing in marathon running, etc - they don't track it per course.

It's a phrase associated with the Holocaust.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

As far as I can recall, I'm not aware of any hoopla over 70.3 or Olympic distance records. Records in tri aren't really measuring what they are supposed to indicate anyway, which to me is "what is the best all time performance?" since we know that some courses are legitimately fast, some are "fast" (ie short), some allow equipment that is not allowed in others, currents are different, and on and on. Any performance really needs to have a degree of subjectivity applied to it to really compare across events.

As far as I can tell, no one REALLY cares about triathlon records anyway. They certainly don't get the attention that track&field or swimming records get.

World records, Scrap 'em I say. Course records, have at it.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

The 1988 Spielberg movie, Who Framed Roger Rabbit, had a story line about the Nazi looking bad guy dissolving animated cartoon characters as a way to eliminate them. They didn't do it, but there was at least some thought given to calling the liquid they were using as the solvent, "The final solution".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpDaNqSXxp0

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

the issue is.... people want to be able to mesure themself with others. it s humain nature. I think ironman should figure out a way to do it properly. In the year where Graham Fraser was at the bar of ironman, there was a lot more rigour in the mesurement of course.

Ironman canada penticton was even certified for boston marathon qualification and there was other courses like this....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Sure we do, and we can, but IMO a true-WR is a fairly high standard for controlling conditions the race is held under. Hell, IM doesn't even have officials observing the athletes throughout the course, which I think matters.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

You can certify the run leg, but even if you could accurately measure all three legs, then how would you control for the distances run to/from transition? For example, some events you come out of the water, go 50 yards and boom you are in transition. Then there are courses like IM70.3 Puerto Rico where it is a 600 yard run to T1. Or think about IM Wales, they have nearly a 1/2 mile run to T1 and have to climb the cliff path on the way there ... but no one is going to set anything but a course record at that venue.

Exactly, and you end up with only a very few courses that you can go for the WR on. Same thing occurs in running. But at least their distances are accurate.

Sure, that would also work.

I'm just trying to bring some pragmatism to this. It would be much better if 'people' (pros, amateurs, competitors, wannabe competitors, arm chair athletes) recognised the variability of the sport and accepted it. Some courses could be 'record valid' others not. No one complains that Swissman, Norseman, Celtman etc are all very different (other than 'hard' ;-) ) . I'm sure some marathon courses are fast, some slow, some flat, some hilly. You've still 'done a marathon' being completing one. Someone holds the course record for each course, and certain courses will fit the parameters for 'overall records', others won't.

The simple answer is you can’t compare course Y with course Z. I’ll give you 1 reason why....transitions.


None are distance standardized, none are standard distances from the swim, etc. But that’s a “hidden” distance that won’t be talked about or will be glossed over.

You also can truly only distance certify bike and run distance. Swim distances are measured as “best efforts”, nothing close to what it takes to measure a run course.

ETA: So talking about “world records” in our sport is actually pretty silly.....there is no possible way to certify the distance. (Didn’t see Huff’s 1st reply to you).

So then when you realize that it’s actually really stupid to compare times from course to course.

So OP’s idea to basically only compare same course is about as good as you can get.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

But that doesn't work because we "need" records to compare blah blah blah. So I think the people saying IM TX shouldn't be a record and that we should "certify" courses have yet to realize it's impossible. Of course that's not good answer as we seem to "need" these records to feel validated it seems? But by the same process you guys are demanding for, also means it cant happen for full courses due to variability in transitions and there are none open water swim certification methods I've yet seen with any swim organizations other than measuring course to "best effort". So as I told Dan yest...only true certified courses you can get on a consistent basis will be bike and run courses. So like I said if IM TX was 2.38miS, 112B, 26.2R, we wouldnt even have cared or have this conversation...We'd just accept it as 2.4mi.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

But even comparing times from a single course can produce a lot of variation, depending on weather. It would be great if all results lists included weather details (temp, humidity, wind) and even logged significant changes in weather (AG race is often quite different because of these changes, and over full distance can have an impact – I've even done an olympic distance where the temp rose 15deg C from swim start to run start). Interestingly, ITU results have some basic weather info noted (water temp, air temp, wetsuit/no wetsuit).

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

But weather to me doesn't matter if we are talking distance record. Which is what a record is right? So that's what I'm saying. If we are insisting on records, the only *real* possibility is to compare times on the same course.

I mean we could do like they do in track for sprinting and if it's weather aided it doesn't count, but last time I checked, I've never heard of a 5k or marathon record include weather report...It simply states the time and if it was a record or not (of course marathon times have certain rules to eliminate straight downhill run etc). Which is why I said you can only compare same course to same course for "record" purposes.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

True true.
I was going off on a bit of tangent there. It would be more for comparing efforts between years.

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Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

I'm gonna toss a turd in this punch bowl:

The nature of your sport pretty much makes records for the entire race, or legs of it, worthless.

A controlled marathon record is fine. The official bicycle hour record is fine. Etc.......

I feel like it's a bit silly when courses and distances are so different.

How about if you want a record on the bike get your ass to the velodrome and go at it for an hour. Or, go out and back time trialling without a draft and go after your best time.

Go run Boston or Berlin or something.

Having a record leg of a triathlon or a total triathlon time is almost like saying you have the record for lowest total time in the TdF.

In that sense, the OP is right. Records only by course. Not across courses.

Yes that’s what I’m saying. But that’s not fun for the big wigs in the tri community to hear. I said that very thing to Dan yesturday and of course it’s not fun to hear because we seem to “need” records to somehow feel validated???

Like I said yest the Olympic tri event in 2012 that is an “Olympic distance” was 43km on the bike?

Why?


Because they wanted to make the bike fan friendly on tv by showing all the London famous monuments. How funny is that. Did they care that it was a “long” bike? Not the least, they’ve never cared about DL records etc, I’m not sure if they keep LC records.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

if you take swimming as the definition of world record... it will never be possible to reach the same accuracy/controle level. I agree 100% and yes, official have to be present.

But i dont think we need the accuracy of swimming or track running. Triathlon/ironman been a outside sport, there is enough variation in courses that if you get the distance right, some official and allow athletes a FAIR race.... we should have condition ''good enough'' in my opinion to accept it as world record. It s good for the sport, create excitement when athlete like jan frodeno have a go at it etc.

But the sport now as taken a wrong turn. Race compete each other by shortening the distance, loops course and creating faster and faster races the wrong way.

I dont see the variation in transition as a issue.... it s ''too small'' over the duration of a event to really have to standarize it. there is too many variable, Weather, wetsuit, hills, pavement quality etc to shot for perfection.

but what is for sure is...what happen at IMTX is unacceptable and not the way to go about the sport.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

See, this is where I disagree. I don't think we 'need' records. At least not an 'ultimate' record. Sure, they'll be a fastest time at Kona, fastest time at Roth etc. as well as who won Rio (anyone actually know the time for that? I don't) but this idea of absolute comparison that creates such a shit storm after races should be dropped.

how did you feel about Herbert's interview with your athlete?

I dunno, I don't get excited by WR's in triathlon, because I usually assume it's the course that allowed it, not the athlete. I've thought the same thing ever since the first big bold headline for sub-8 (I do remember the cover of Triathlete magazine from that performance).

At mens NCAA's this year, the 4x200 (I think it was that race) produced something ridiculous like 4 of the top 10 all time 200 freestyles. That's exciting. but IMTX having ridiculously low bike times, I'm pretty "meh" about it, my assumption is that its because of the course, not because the athletes are better.

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i decided to stay out of it as i offered herbert to take part in the interview (phone) and give my perspective on jen performance and the ''world record''. but he decline to take me on it. I dont fault him, he is a busy guy and as lots of other topic to cover.

But i have done a few interview with Herbert, The one of jen wasnt a enjoyable one. I would have prefer it done differently.

but this is off topic.....

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I was kinda writing that in pink based on all the comments from people who got up in arms over IM TX and then everyone talking about "certifying" courses now to clarify the issue.

I'm in the camp that it's dumb to have full course records in triathlon. We don't even have an procedure for transition setup and/or athlete flow in said transitions. In Kona the pros have to go all the way around the transition. In other races, I don't think that's the case, and it's certainly not laid out precisely like Kona is. Which is my point when someone brings up "certifying" a course. The only courses you truly can certify is the bike and run.

Which is also why I said, if IM TX was 112mi bike and the swim was 2.388mi, we'd not have a care in the world, or even have this conversation.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

understandable and it seems with that statement you are making it clear that your primary roll is to protect your athlete. Which is admirable.

These are my thoughts exactly but I was afraid to put it in that other thread as I was afraid of all those "mean people" piling on me :-). When I started competing in triathlons, I was chasing the time but soon realized how subjective they are. The courses are so different, weather, sea/lake conditions, wet suit or not... I did 5:45 in IM Florida, nice and clean ride, the next year it was very windy and I would have been slower.
Can somebody organize a river swim where we would swim downstream and, ya-hooo, look at the new swim record?? Who will do this first, Ironman or Challenge? I
I think the interview was good, straightforward questions and straightforward answers.
About not releasing the files, I wouldn't do that either. Years ago, I was doing strength training with a paralympic athlete who represented Canada in Vancouver 2010, I was his secondary coach, trained him now and then. What we did is nobody's business, we did what his primary coach told us and would release the files only if we were under some sort of investigation.