I think you might be surprised how difficult it is to go from say 1:07-1:15 to 1 flat. I always encourage people to swim more than they do but it may not be worth it to put in that much dedication to move the needle that far in one season. Regardless, are you swimming LCM or short-course meters?

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If you want to do a sub hour for a non wetsuit ironman swim that is accurate, then you would need to go like 20x100's on the 1;20 holding under 1;15 for SCY. You can add 6 seconds for SCM and about 8 for LCM(1;26/1;28) And that would be about minimum if you are very good in the OW and a great drafter...

Monty, just out of curiosity: I am doing a swim block ATM and yesterday I swam a 1900 SCM just to gauge where my HIM swim is. I swam a 28.24. Whit that fitness what do you think I'd be able to do for an Ironman swim?

Whit that fitness what do you think I'd be able to do for an Ironman swim? //


Well losing some time for the turns, but getting more back for a good draft(as long as you get one!!) you should be right about an hour in a non wetsuit swim( you didn't use one in the pool, or draft someone in your TT, right?) What have you done in past races for 1/2's or fulls that were accurate?? And as to fitness, it is basically all the same. If you get in shape for a good 1900, then it is really the same as a 3800. They are both distance swims that do basically the same sort of training to get good at...

Would this also be the benchmark for a flat 30min HIM swim?

I would say 28+ to 30 flat, and 26 to 28 wetsuit... I remember when I was in 50-54 AG and I did Oceanside 70.3. I did this set at about 1;11 pulling and did about a 26 low for the accurate swim, swimming through 100's from earlier waves. But lucky for me that about the only guy who could share the lead in the swim with me was there, Dean Harper, so there was a good draft for a good portion of the swim..And that pull time swimming would have been right around a 1;15 for swimming..

Thanks a lot.

Yeah, no wetsuit or draft for the TT.

My last HIM was a 30min, but I felt horrible during the swim and also have improved my times since then. Never raced a full, will do next year and hope to swim 60min or slightly under. Seems realistically considering the time frame.

Is this Busselton Ironman in december?

At 1.46/100m I would say you're a way off. I think if you could get to low 1.30s for 20 x 100 with 10s rest that would get you close for a wetsuit swim. I'd be about 56mins. I don't do heaps of 100s, (mostly 200s/400s+) but I reckon I would be 1.18 - 1.20 leaving on the 1.30 That's in a 25m pool though.

Swimming is so strange. Ok, let me ask you something.

Currently in the pool (scy), I did a 1650 yard TT, I did it in 25:48 (around 1:34 pace). I’ve done plenty 20x100 on 1:40, and I can land them at around 1:32-1:33.

My best 100 yards is somewhere around 1:22
My best 50 is around 39s
And my best 25 is around 17s

What’s the difference between the me swimming 20x100 on 1:40 landing them on 1:33, and the me doing them on 1:30, landing them on 1:22?

When I go 1:22 I’m going max effort (not sprinting, though), the first 50 I feel strong, the next 25 get tough, and the last 25 I just want it to end. Is the me swimming them 20x100 at a 1:22 pace doing the same “power/effort” but is just able to hold it for longer? Does that mean I lack muscular endurance and aerobic capacity?

Or is that hypothetical me doing an effort similar to the current me, the 1:33 pace, but is just able to move faster do to better technique?

Thanks Thomas, Monty. I'm swimming SC meters

When I did the 1:07 and was at 1'38 CSS I was doing 3x 2500-3000m, short course. I'm building back up, currently at three sessions of 2000m each. I recognise I will need to 1) up the weekly distance, 2) up the number of sessions, 3) not take a break between seasons.

The aim is to see how far I can develop my swim as I've never done that. I've had seasons dedicated to breaking through on the bike and the run, but not the swim. I'm starting with IM Western Aus Dec 2018, then IM Taupo Mar 2019, and finally IM Cairns Jun 2019, so it's not a short term goal. The objective is to execute a strong swim, to set my bike leg up nicely.

Given my personality some milestones help to keep my motivation between races and monitor progress towards goal.

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

Or is that hypothetical me doing an effort similar to the current me, the 1:33 pace, but is just able to move faster do to better technique? //

It is mostly this^^^ But there is also a thing that happens when you get to around that 1;20 pace, you are able to actually swim harder too. I see it this way, doing mid 1;30s means either you are really old with a great stroke, or young with a mediocre one. Mediocre strokes fall apart quicker, and thus take more effort to hold pace. Better strokes can fall apart, but you still go faster in that beat up zone because you are still holding onto other aspects that affect speed in the water. And I think that happens at many different speeds starting at 2;00 100's, and for sure it happens from a 1;20 low to 1;35 pace too.

So yes, you will be at the same effort level that each of those sets would take to do, only the faster one once your hypothetical self gets there, will feel easier to do, but will feel more painful to do. Does that make sense???

Is this Busselton Ironman in december? Yes.

At 1.46/100m I would say you're a way off. I think if you could get to low 1.30s for 20 x 100 with 10s rest that would get you close for a wetsuit swim. I'd be about 56mins. I don't do heaps of 100s, (mostly 200s/400s+) but I reckon I would be 1.18 - 1.20 leaving on the 1.30 That's in a 25m pool though.


Oh, trust me, I know 1'46 is way off! Thanks for the set though, very helpful

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

This is a big generalisation, but most people I see that are slower than 1.30/100m tend to have some fundamental issues with their stroke that can often hamstring their ability to progress. I'd suggest:

1)posting video on ST, you'll get some great (free) advice
2)Going to see Swim Smooth in Claremont, Paul does excellent video analysis (I'm in Perth BTW)

Are you with a squad?

- 3x 1000 on 1:00 rest. 1. Swim, 2. Pull, 3. Swim
Shoot to hold 1hr-IM pace (1:33/100m or 1:25/100yd) or better for the 3rd 1000.

- 1hr straight swim for distance.
Pretty straight forward. If you can hit 3850m (or farther) you should be good to go.

I think I get it. And I’m neither very old, nor young. I’m 37 and been swimming for 2.5 years. It took me this long to go from 2:45ish pace, but I’ve been at this pace for about 6 months.

This is a big generalisation, but most people I see that are slower than 1.30/100m tend to have some fundamental issues with their stroke that can often hamstring their ability to progress. I'd suggest:

1)posting video on ST, you'll get some great (free) advice
2)Going to see Swim Smooth in Claremont, Paul does excellent video analysis (I'm in Perth BTW)

Aye, I'm a big fan of Paul and Adam since wayyyy back. Unfortunately I'm not in the UK, or Perth for that matter so attending a coaching sesh isn't on the cards (I'm in kiwiland). I used to get OW and video coaching Dan Bullock in London (swimfortri), but again, lost contact when I moved. I could use my samsung to get some video, just got to figure out how to hold it in the water/ hang it off the side.

And yes, I figure I've got some issues: slight overglide on left side, collapsing pull when breathing right, dropping legs in long sets, slower turnover rate than I'd like, etc. And that's just what I've identified.

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.

I'll give a (slightly) controversial answer.

For slower swimmers ( >55mins for IM) I think that paddles and PB speed give a better indication of race pace if it's an OW wetsuit swim.
You'll be in some sort of pack, the water will be quite rough and you really won't be able to swim your best stroke. It'll be about keeping the basics right without form collapsing in the last 3rd of the swim, gaining benefit from wetsuit leg lift and core support, and drafting.

On this basis, if you can lap 1.30 off 10seconds rest (ad infinitum within reason, 20 should be enough for an indication) with pad and PB then that should be enough.
That is my benchmark - along with sub 6.00 400m (full gas) and I swim sub 60min.

There is a swim smooth provider in Hamilton and quite a few good stroke correctors in Auckland if your keen..

Although with those races planned swimming might not be required...

IMWA- hasn't been a swim at IM or 70.3 for ages..
IMNZ- 70.3 SWIM canceled due to algae..

nice one a they say the best perormance predictor is performance itself and it takes out the guesswork ( as monty said dont forget drafting advantages so a bit slower in test is ok also deoends how fresh you were for test )
suggesting x time for 100 without asking for weekly miles years of swimming , intensity etc is not great .
( of course once you have established your personal benchmarks that are race proven that a total different matter doing similar training )


same when people try to select their watts for an IM doing a 20 min ftp test ...or the 220 minus age hr rule ....

I tend to hate pool time trials personally because I'm not good at turns. I probably should take the time to get better but I would rather focus on my stroke. I've only done Olympic/sprints and will be increasing this year to HIM and next to IM. I swam a 22:30 wetsuit 1.5k and 26min non wetsuit race (I had a bit of traffic to swim over because of the wave start) on about 8-10K SCM/week. How much more would I have to swim to keep that pace for an IM? I might get some better times this year because I've dropped 5 sec off my 100 times with basically the same turn, but I wouldn't count it until I race.

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This seems pretty spot-on to me, with the one caveat that it would vary greatly depending on how good someone is at turns.

I know some people that are fairly quick and open water but are absolutely rubbish at turns and it adds about 5-7 Seconds to their short course 100s vs someone with a decent turn who is otherwise swimming the same speed.

I've always been to the personal opinion that triathletes really shouldn't worry much about their flip turns since they won't need them it erases, but if you're trying to suss out where your race times will be, it's important to factor that in.

I hold pretty much dead on those numbers that Monty posted, and the last half I did I cruised to a 26 in a wetsuit half without burning too many candles

I want to be sure I'm getting this right. Monty is saying that to go under an hour, a person should be able to hold under 1:15 SCY (or 1:21 SCM) with only... like 5 seconds rest?

I could never do that workout - not in a million years. But I've done an hour (literally 1:00:08) and broken 30 for a half IM.

I don't know... I went :58 at a few IMs including one long one on 100s on the 1:30... you really think 100s on the 1:20 is required to go sub-hour?

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yeah I think his estimate is a little aggressive...

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Was that a non wetsuit swim Eric? If so, which race?

I was trying not to drop this, but the 58-high was at Kona in 2013, the old long course. Lots of good drafting there of course. Previous to that was a couple 58s at IM CdA with wetsuit, and a 59 at CdA with skinsuit.... less drafting at CdA obviously at that pace.

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So 5 years ago what would have been your best time for that set on 1:20? And nice swim. (-:

I could come in on the 1:17 if I was leaving on the 1:30

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So here is the deal when I post up a set like this, it is an over/under type of benchmark. As you know, nothing is guaranteed on race day from what you do in a pool. So many other factors in play, how you sight, draft, float, and just different abilities once you leave the pool.

So with that in mind, yes there will be people that dont make that set(like you) that can swim an hour or under. Conversely there will be people that beat that set and don't swim that hour. I put that out there as kind of a median for most people to achieve if the hour is their goal. I'm very much like you in this regard, I could not come even close to the sets that guys doing 50 flat in Kona were doing, yet there I was right next to them.

So in closing, it is not a magic bullet to be able to do that set, just that if you can you should probably be under an hour for a non wetsuit swim like Kona, and if not, then you got some low hanging fruit to catch(like in fast feet) to get there.

when someone asks about a performance and you get to say it was at kona

I am 10 weeks out to my A-race. Last weekend I raced 00:35 swim on 2k (wetsuit), how could I best prepare (training wise) in the last weeks to gain as much speed as possible?

A-race is a wetsuit legal sea swim.

I'm no pro but lots of 10x100s, 10x200s repeats on intervals with ~15s / 25s rest - try to drop the interval 5s per every two weeks. Mix in some long "slow and long" swims of 500/1000 here and there.

The biggest mistake you’re making is you are taking off 4 months out of the year. That’s a pretty big hurdle to overcome when you want to go from 1:15 to under an hour, especially if we are talking about a “neutral” swim course (no current, not much wind, no chop/waves) without a wetsuit and the course is dead on accurate.

In my experience, you could probably do it based on your description of where you are now. The pacing is around 1:30/100m. Below are some suggestions on how to do it:

Plan on swimming for 12-18 months to achieve this goal
Stop doing long, straight swims.
Swim 5x a week (3 hard workouts; 2 easy ones).
Technique finally becomes important; it really isn’t at 1:40+/100. Fitness is more important at that pacing.
Don’t take 4 months off out of the year
Swim with a team with a qualified (qualified and certified aren’t the same thing) coach on the deck.

In terms of a set you’d need to do in my experience, a good bench mark would be 20x100 swim @ 1:35 holding around 1:15+/- 3-5 seconds. Some folks need to be faster than that some can be slower and still under an hour.

There are athletes who will be able to go under an hour on less. There are some who would need a lot more. There are many who wouldn’t be able to do it no matter how much or how good their training is. But without seeing you, you’re probably in the ball park.

Hope this helps.

Tim

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Quoted for emphasis; and further, some tri-guys only swim the last week or 2 before any given race. Hard to believe but i see these people every summer, maybe 2 times per week for 4 wks before their race.

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FWIW, my "go to" set to gauge swim fitness and ability to go under an hour is 10x200 (SCM) w/paddles, leaving on 3:00 (trying to get in on 2:45). If I can nail that set I will probably go under an hour (swam 59:45 at last IM, in a choppy ocean swim w/ wetsuit).

Then again, my buddies who do exactly the same set swim 57:XX

what Tim is saying... I swam 5000m under an hour and only had one 1500m and one 800m straight swim during the 3 prior months and they were test swims since the meets I was at didn't offer them.



Start with improving your 400m as a test. You need to get your 100m pace under 1:33 in open water. I would suggest that to be confident you have to be swimming 100m reps consistently under 1:30 to go sub 60.

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5:45 400m

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I would say that if you can do 20 X 100 SCY on 1:25 holding 1:15 per 100 you are probably good. Add 8 secs for SCM. I am generally around an hour (58-1:01) and that is about where I am.

So just curious and looking for a reference...I feel that I tend to underperform in the open water vs. the pool. I am typically a 35 min wetsuit legal HIM swimmer. I haven't done any 20x100 leave on "x" sets but have recently done a 15x100 SCY set at all out effort with a prescribed 15s of rest. 100s started at 1:08, faded to 1:22 by the 6th repeat, and held steady/slightly faded to 1:24 over the next 9 repeats. I'd love to get my HIM swim under 30 min but it's been very stagnant over the past couple of years. I typically swim 3-4x and 6k-10k each week. Any "experts" out there want to weigh in on how my pool and ows times compare?

recently done a 15x100 SCY set at all out effort with a prescribed 15s of rest. 100s started at 1:08, faded to 1:22 by the 6th repeat, and held steady/slightly faded to 1:24 over the next 9 repeats.//

Who the heck had you do that set, hope it wasn't a coach you are paying for. Now if you reversed all the times and ended with a 1;08, it would have been a perfect set. The way you did it was really bad and you probably did nothing for yourself after the 5th one or so...If you want to get a 1/2 under 30 minutes, do that set starting at about 1;17 and ending at 1;10 or better.

I swam 32 in my last HIM w/ a wetsuit and there is no way in hell I'm cracking 1:15 in a 100scy. My best ever was 1:19. I would say absolute underperform.

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@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

What would you do on a 20x100y with a 10s rest?

The best I can do is a 1:40 send off, landing all of them around 1:31-1:32, and I want to see how far I am from swimming 32 min.

+1

I can merely give you some anecdotal feedback based on my own experience. To be in sub 60 shape, I need to be at a CSS of around 1:24/100m or better

Typical workout efforts for me to be in shape for under 60
- 1:24/100m feels like a steady cruise. It should not feel too difficult doing 100m reps leaving the wall on a 1:30 interval.
- 200m intervals during a workout are all comfortably under 3:00, usually 2:46 - 2:50 with 2:50 not feeling too hard.
- 400m intervals repeating on 6:00 should feel comfortable. Coming in around 5:45 or faster. If I can do 10x400 coming in on 5:45 that's a good sign (but that is also not a very fun workout!)

Hope that helps a bit!

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Cheers Rob, Eric and everyone who contributed. You've been a great help in pointing the way and I appreciate the effort you took to reply and debate.

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Swim. Overbike. Walk.