I did a recent podcast episode on this where i reviewed TrainerRoad if you are interested in more of a deep dive. It mostly comes down to what you are looking for. I can use workout mode in Zwift if i already know what workout i want to do and the virtual reality can help with entertainment. Trainerroads primary selling point is the training plans, testing, and then wide range of pre-planned workouts. Zwift is slowly adding training plans but they are pretty far behind TrainerRoad.

I personally use both. During the winter i like Zwift for the 4-5 hour winter long rides, occasional races/TT's, and the distraction. I often use TrainerRoad workout plans during the offseason to focus on a specific power aspect to improve upon. TrainerRoad plans are often too low volume for my personal liking so i use their plans but add in some extra work.

Why do you train?
Purely to get faster, or because you like to train?
When you're on the trainer is it about hitting specific numbers or working your ass off in a general vicinity?

I think there are many of us in each camp for each question. Your answer to each will likely dictate whether you're more inclined towards Zwift or TR. I like Zwift. I don't wang to pretend I'm not training by watching a film while I pedal. I also find it to be the worst of both worlds. I don't focus well on training and I don't enjoy thd film.

I suspect most people who don't get Zwift are using ERG mode and workouts most of the time? It makes sense that Zwift is undermined by ERG mode since the whole point is feedback, motivation and a simulation of reality. ERG is the exact opposite. The challenge is to keep up with the trainer, visual feedback or other riders may as well be a recording. There's no interaction unless you fail.

Trainerroad has their great workout library and plans. Obviously Zwift is improving in that area. Zwift now has their group workouts but also their group rides with your standard A-D rides. So plenty of different ways to get strong on Zwift. Plenty of people get faster just doing group rides outdoors with different fast people. So you can simulate that experience on Zwift. It IS sort of cool but it do doesnt really do it for me. I liked the trainerroad programs but I’ve tired of the subscription model. I recently switched to perfpro. Tons of workouts there. Not plans like trainerroad but I just pick a hard workout a couple of times a week then do my longer rides outdoors on the weekend.

Came here expecting a comparison of the two. Was disappointed.

Zwift isn't just the 'hardcore-always-training-to-improve-my-ftp-or-gtfo-sesson' crowd. It can be this, and it's marketed as that in some aspects. To a lot of people Zwift has become a new discipline. Sometimes people just jump on Zwift to go for a ride, or to hang on for as long as they can to a scheduled bunch ride. Riding on their terms. Maybe with a few efforts thrown in just like riding outside and trying to hang with a bunch that just flew past. That's the hook for a lot of people. The kind of people who'd never have wanted a smart trainer before. Now they're walking into a bike shop and dropping big $ on bike gear.

In short, they're different. You can still alt-tab in Zwift and watch Netflix too.

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Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

Thanks Shane, so you have sort of confirmed my thoughts that Zwift is more of a casual/leisure type 'lets go for a ride' as opposed to Trainerroad which I feel is more a structured serious results/training approach.


BTW when are you going to do an follow up on the Vector 3s??? I have been eagerly awaiting since you initial review as there has been a lot of bad feedback out there particularly surrounding the battery casing..

Soon. I've suffered all the same dramas as others..... I'm waiting for their official response/solution before the update video. That should be within a few weeks. I hope. Stay tuned - It'll either be a good news story or a sacrificial burning of the pedals in the nearest furnace. :)

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Shane Miller - GPLama
YouTube | Web | Twitter | Instagram | Facebook | Strava

You can use both too.

I'm hooked on TR for the plans but also run them in zwift.

I run a smart trainer (Wahoo Kickr) from my phone using TR and bluetooth, then pair my trainer to zwift/laptop using ANT+ (power source pairing, not controllable).

I prefer riding around in zwift while I beat myself up compared to watching netflix.

But this ain’t what I’m understanding-if for example u are doing a trainer road workout in Zwift there is no relation to what you are seeing compared to what you are experiencing, so for me it gets really boring really quickly watching a whole heap of animated bikes ride around?

Thanks Shane can’t wait!! I’ve been biding my time and looks like I might just go with the tried and tested P1’s.

There is a relation: your avatar only moves along as fast as the watts/kg you are pushing.

Might not be exactly what you are looking for but I like chasing people down over my workouts (or getting dropped), YMMV.

A little more interesting than just watching the time tick by on TR.

If I had to choose one or the other though it would be TR.

My favourite parts of Zwift:

1) Trying not to get dropped in a race or a fast group ride is exhilarating -- it’s very much like the feeling of trying to stay with the pack in an outdoor group ride. I’m not saying it’s the same -- cartoony views, lack of bike handling, and lack of fresh air and other sensations obviously make it not the same -- but the adrenaline rush feels the same.
2) The climbing. Especially the newest addition, Alpe du Zwift. I live in a flat area (Toronto), where there is just no way to do a workout where you get to pedal at a cadence of 65-70 for a whole hour plus. You could do it on a trainer without Zwift, but I think it would be too mind numbingly boring to get through it without the visual feedback that Zwift offers. I think I’m going to try to do Alpe du Zwift once in a while even over the summer, on rainy days maybe, as preparation for Levi’s granfondo which I’m signed up for in October.

Now both of those workouts are too hard to do everyday, so the rest of the time I just do the structured workouts, or noodle around, which admittedly gets a little boring, especially by the end of the winter. Still, I prefer the visual feedback of zwift, along with some good music, to anything else.

Exactly-what is the attraction of feeling a reduction in resistance as I’m climbing up a hill? What’s the attraction in chasing down people on a flat only for your resistance to then increase markedly inline with a interval?

The whole thing seems pointless to me

I only do workouts and group workouts on Zwift. Just to ride, it is boring.

Why did I go with Zwift? I could try it for free and I could see the workouts before joining. I can do niether with TrainerRoad so I haven't tried it.

I do think I would like TR better, but since they don't have a trial or library of workouts, I just don't fool with them.

If that's what is on my interval schedule then I just end up going slow uphill. My training program dictates my power outputs, not the terrain I'm riding on. If it means going slow up a hill then so be it.

Going back to your original question I find Netflix/tv/movies to be incredibly boring when I'm trying to do 5x 20 mins. I prefer to put on some music and try to chase some people down in zwift.

If thats what you think about Zwift, you're using it wrong. Go ride a Zwift race and try to win it. Report back.

Have you tried to race on zwift?

My (non) scientific opinion is that it’s the most fun and productive way to do 60min efforts

I have a little “community” of guys and gals tht I race with every week at the same time

I’ve never been in this good of shape in my life, i have fun, and it doesn’t feel like “work” like straight intervals do

I could never get into TR, but I’m HOOKED on zwift just for the racing.

Agree with you that if you’re just going to noodle on zwift, it’s a bit boring

And this is exactly the part I don't understand-the whole idea of Zwift is to be a virtual reality immersive ride. If what you are seeing has no correlation to what you are 'riding' then you might as well be watching the MotoGP

No I will have to give the races a try!

Of course there is a correlation:

If you are riding to wattage in zwift your speed will be reflective of that wattage, just like riding outside. If I ride at a constant 300W and start going uphill my speed will drop. Similarly in zwift your avatar will slow down going up a hill if you keep a constant wattage. This is all in erg mode mind you.

Conversely if you have zwift control your trainer (ie in a race) the trainer will apply more resistance going up a hill so you will have to apply more power to keep the same speed.

It's really up to you to choose how you want to use the tool.

I would suggest you try a race with a smart trainer, you may like it.

I use TR as my primary training tool and I thought lets try Zwift for the fun of it (I was curious about the hype). I can certainly see why people are hooked on it...I found my nice, easy recovery ride quickly become a "lets chase this person down in front of me" or "lets keep up with this group". It was actually quite fun and it wasn't as boring as you state. I could certainly see using it on a regular basis if I didnt use TR and let my coach do my workouts (he normally did them but I decided to use TR for a few months). There some club members who use it for that reason the coach gives them the program and they go out and ride. Still if its not for you its not for you......I don't think anyone can make you think you its anything more than pointless if you really don't like it (although I do suggest you try a group ride as someone else here has suggested and go for it and see how you fare). Think about it like this...there are options for you and if you love TR ...just do it ...if you love Zwift ..do it...if you can ride outside all year and love that do it....theres something (I hope) for everyone.

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

I'm currently doing the 10-12 week FTP builder programme on Zwift and it seems to be pretty good. Is a programme by Marco Pinotti if you know who that is...

the other day, I did an extra 45 minutes on top of the plan. In the last 5 minutes of what was going to be a 20 min tempo effort, 2 guys came flying past so I went with them and ended up doing above threshold watts for the last 5 minutes. I wouldn't have done that but for the people who came past so Zwift can certainly help with 'motivation' during a workout.

I have subscriptions to both and use both frequently.

For me indoor training is purely that- trying to prepare to go as fast as possible on raceday. To that end that is where TrainerRoad has Zwift covered, the number of workouts available, from short Vo2 to long extended (90mins+) 90%FTP efforts are all there and it is something that Zwift clearly can't match (as of yet). Added to that the training plans are considerably more developed on TrainerRoad, catering to a wider variety of cycling abilities, where I feel Zwift plans are more targeted at beginners. 'Entertainment' in TR is 'BYO' so you will have to either listen to a podcast or have netflix on. For most of my hard sessions I find music is the only thing I need as I am super focused.

In saying that- I still find Zwift productive and very enjoyable. The 'basic' sessions (eg 2x20) is all there but I primarily use Zwift for easy recovery rides and races. Races are not only super fun (well as fun as a race can be) but also an extremely productive form of training. Last week I did 3 back to back races for 2.46hrs, 212tss, 2500KJ, the racing dynamic made it much more bearable than if I was on TrainerRoad.

In short both are really good and have their own strengths and weaknesses. Personally for pure performance I'd choose TR. But if you're struggling for motivation- maybe you'd be better off on Zwift as I think it is a more immersive and 'enjoyable' experience. Rule no.1 of improvement is consistency.

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__________________________________________________
http://twitter.com/willrc91 --- instragram.com/willrc91

I have used both/using both and i can see you points but i think its down to preference.
THe structure and buildup of workoutsi n TR cannot be beaten. (base build specialty), but the workouts themselves also feels ALOT more thought out than the zwift ones. I did some zwift workouts and they just seemed like a kid had randomly added different colors (zones) together. But i know they have improved on this alot.
Zwift is for me more for progression something to look at, and for socialising. I like having achivements and levels etc.
I have also tried the races, but for me it seems to always just end up in a TT like effort each time (not that that is bad).

I kind of burned out on TR, in terms of being able to motivate myself to do quality interval based sessions. Once I'd gotten bored of the integratiin with Sufferfest video downloads, which I paid for but can't use in TR anymore, you are basically just left with the graph to stare at. Works for many people but I stagnated a bit.

After a break from consistent training last year I'm back on it and have seen my FTP go up by approx 25% in 4 months doing nothing but Zwift, admittedly from a fairly untrained baseline. I'm not saying I couldn't have achieved the same or better in TR but I might not have motivated myself to do it.

For me the trick to seeing gains in Zwift is to RACE. One or two of my rides each week is a Zwift race, which is basically near-threshold with vo2 intervals. Might not follow the polarized model perfectly but tired legs are tired legs sometimes.

Some of the gamified stuff works well for me also, I was pretty motivated to win the virtual Jersey for the Tour of Watopia this last month and I'm now chasing the Everest challenge for another bike, then onwards eventually for the Tron bike. Was very pleased to make level 12 and unlock Alpe du Zwift.

R.

I have used both as well. The Zwift training plans are really pretty basic in comparison.

The structure of the TR plans are excellent. Each session has a specific purpose and they build on each other as the weeks go on.

I agree. I guess thats why I love TR-there is a set workout and you have to complete it, no slacking off, its a constructive dedicated workout.

I don’t understand your argument. What you are seeing is directly correlated to the effort you put in if you dontrun trainer road on ergo mode. It’s exactly the same as doing a workout outdoors, do 2w/kg and you’ll go slow, do 4w/kg and you’ll go fast.

I write my trainer road workout down on a piece of paper and ride it on zwift, no different to a coach giving you a workout and riding it on zwift or outdoors.

I can’t comment on TR specifically, but I can on Zwift/Wahoo Kickr relative to outdoors and computrainer.

In my mind, I’m looking for the feeling I get from a good workout and the fitness that comes from a reasonable, thoughtful training program. The latter tends to be driven by “The Consevation of Motivation”. Simply put, if I can ride more often, at higher intensity (with appropriate recovery) and do so consistently and still be energized to swim and run enough, good stuff happens fitness wise and in the races.

Winter and bad weather make it hard to ride outside. I have no problem going out at 5am for a mid summer century on a beautiful morning. If it’s 15 and sleeting, whole other thing. Computrainer used to fill the gap but Zwift is light years better. I can hit a structured workout (and have built all of my favs from the CT days). I can ride Erg. I can enter any number of races or group rides. I can do the pretzel or Alpe de Zwift if I want to build the strength.

Its safe. Takes me less than 5 minutes from couch to watts. If the missus is getting ready to go out I can hop on for a quick 45 minutes with several jumps or work on high cadence or whatever.

All I know is I’m at 4200 miles or so sitting here in the end of April and as I’m beginning to move more and more outside, I’m finding I can bring August quality to a May ride. Can’t wait to layer on top of this base. What’s not to like?

I’m 60 years old and this is my 40th year of biking and I’m big M motivated....hell yes!

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Randy Christofferson(http://www.rcmioga.blogspot.com

Insert Doubt. Erase Hope. Crush Dreams.

+1
If i'm doing long sweetspot intervals it can be fun to blast past lots of other riders and it gives you "something to do" while you enjoy the mild suffering.

There's always Sufferfest as well - that is the best way to really go hard into the hurt zone.

No, I think you're missing the point.
That's rather like saying that going outside on your bike is just for casual/leisure rides and is not a structured serious training approach. It's a deceptively selective description that has much more to do with your existing ideas than the reality. It can be used to train just as seriously and productively as any other interface. What matters is the work you do. The adaptations from training are unaffected by what you're looking at or listening to while you train. The relevance of the interface, be it Sufferfest, Zwift, TrainerRoad, or a stop watch and notepad is simply how your keep track, and keep motivated. They all work. Which works best for you is going to come down to taste and how you use it.

As I said in my previous post, Zwift is designed as an interactive environment to give some sense of progress and satisfaction for your effort. If you intend to use prescribed workouts the whole time that undermines it somewhat IMO. If you do group workouts where speed is neutralised that seems to further undermine that aspect of the software it in my view, although it has other benefits. Using ERG mode is also potentially putting up a barrier.

Not everyone trains by following a predetermined, structured, power based workout for every single ride. From your posts to date it seems like you are assuming all serious riders do and all other activities are "just" casual/leisure rides. Would that be accurate?

I don't think that accurately depicts what I was saying. I personally find that TR appeals to me. I get a lot from TR because it focuses in on the performance improvement. I like reading the training plan notes, the workout notes, even during each workout you get coaching tips. Plus there is the Podcast.

I am sure that some like Zwift more. I have done a few group workouts in Zwift and I find them pretty good.

Tried both, Zwift isn't for me. I think probably because I live somewhere I can easily get my group riding/racing kicks outside, so when I'm training indoors I just want to be hitting target numbers and doing structured training. TR is better for that, and if I'm doing my own thing I'd rather watch Netflix than watch virtual riders and landscape. If I couldn't do outdoor group rides and races regularly then I might see more value in Zwift, but then I would probably also be looking for a different sport!

You're right. It's pointless, unless it's useful as a mental tool.

Chasing other riders is most useful for me when I find someone going at an appropriate pace and use them as a short term incentive to raise or maintain a hard effort. If I'm doing an interval session and the interval ends, I instantly lose interest in the other rider. Same thing if they significantly change pace or I overtake them - time to look for another one.
What I would like to see added as an option for workouts is a non-user character on the screen who would follow your workout's prescribed pace so that you can simply chase them rather than have to watch power figures or use ERG.

There are plenty tools that are used differently by different people. I think you're using Zwift in a way that does not actually make sense for what you want it to be. Or perhaps it's just not the right tool to cater for your interests at all. However, it does come across a bit ignorant to me when you say your way is serious and what other people are doing is casual/leisure. I've a friend who does coach prescribed structured workouts week in week out. I use a broad mix of road riding, Zwift group rides, my own pre-programmed power based workouts on Zwift, free-form hill intervals either outside or on Zwift, and occasional Zwift races. My accumulated training load is bigger than his, I seem to enjoy my training much more and my results and as a result I'm train more consistently and get better results. My point is that it's not about the tool. It's how you use it and how that influences the work you do..

This was a reply to dunno's post specifically. I wasn't commenting on what you'd said.

Sorry I must not be understanding how it works properly. If I load a trainer road or any interval based type workout into Zwift for example won’t the resistance be changing independant of what I’m seeing the terrain doing in front of me?

For example-the beginning of an interval of increased resistance could start at the start of a decent, and then based on timing I could experience a decrease in resistance at as I start to go up a hill.

Or have I got this all wrong?

I don’t want to get into semantics but isn’t going out for ‘leisurely/casual’ ride by its definition is not a serious training approach. 80kms of balls to the wall intervals for example is going to do a lot for me than a nice leisurely 80km ride at a quarter of the effort with my wife IMHO.

But I understand the point you are trying to make so don’t take it the wrong way. What ever works to keep people moving is what works.

If you do a preset workout, then you will be defaulted to erg mode, which means that yes the resistance will change independently of the terrain. Your speed will adjust to compensate, so if you are going uphill with a low resistance then your speed will also get slow, as if you are climbing in a really easy gear, but still it doesn’t feel natural if it’s a really steep hill and really easy resistance. The problem is solved by simply selecting a flat course for your workouts, then you don’t get the huge disconnects.
That being said, you do know that erg mode is not the only mode on zwift, right? If you turn off erg mode then the resistance will change with the terrain. Then it’s harder to do structured workouts, but no more so than riding outside. You can skip the preset workouts and instead plan your workouts the way you would riding outside, using a group to motivate you, or using the terrain (eg. choosing a climbing route if you want to work on strength, or a short loop with a flat sprint if you want to do anaerobic intervals). Racing is where zwift really shines, as everyone is saying. For someone like you who is disciplined enough to do structured workouts, you may want to stick with trainer road, but just do a zwift race or something once in a while just to mix it up.

Also, if you're not watching Netflix it's important to ride with music ;)

Same. I do the TR/Zwift combo for rides > 1hr. A bunch of my cycling teammates have spent all winter racing on Zwift and came into the start of the season in peak form, blowing everyone up. The Zwift races are a great true 1hr FTP test and I find myself much more motivated to ride harder when I'm chasing someone vs watching a line on a chart in TR. Will be interesting to see if people hit burnout/fatigue early in the season on account of the earlier peaks but there is definitely a lot to be gained by racing over winter.

The trick is to have your laptop showing Zwift and pulling power from your trainer, but with the trainer resistance control unticked. You then run Trainer Road on your phone and control the trainer with that. Your feel is linked to the interval and independent of the terrain.

Are you intentionally misconstruing this?
No one but you is talking about leusurely rides.

Please re read what you quoted if this is an honest misunderstanding. It seems more like trolling but I don't think you're a troll.

The purpose of the quoted post was literally to point out that not all hard training needs to be structured workouts and thus characterising Zwift as for casual/leisure rides was nonsense.
Then you come back saying a nice easy ride isn't as effective as a hard one.
Playing games, or comprehension problem?

So if you are not doing intervals, then the only other option is to ride casually? Almost anything you can do outside you can do on zwift. If I want to do hill repeats, I can do that on zwift. If I want to do a lap around the island easy, then hard, then easy, then hard etc. I can do that. None of these things are casual riding, and all are good workouts. Also, I can assure you there is nothing leisurely about a zwift race.

In Red: That would be awesome like the pacer I can have on my garmin 910. Set a desired pace and try to stay ahead or keep up. Interesting idea.

i'm happy to have folks more knowledgeable than i correct what i'm going to write below.

you can ride as hard as you want on zwift. if you can imagine a workout, any workout, done on a bike, hard or easy, long or short, you can do it on zwift.

what TR has is a much better developed structured training platform than zwift, a much larger library of workouts, but there is no workout you can do in TR that you can't do in zwift.

zwift offers 3 additional elements: racing, group rides - and if you ride our thurs afternoon zwift ride tell me afterward if it was leisurely for you - and graphics (yes, that correspond quite precisely to the work you do, unless you have zwift in workout mode).

but, to me, none of that touches on the primary functionality of zwift. why did you post here? just to write? because, you could've written your post is ms word, without an internet connection. but, you wanted to share what you wrote. hence zwift.

my guess is the reason you do all of your structured training is not to get better at structured training, but to engage in the shared experience of racing. the largest point of zwift - to me - is that whatever it is you want to do, whether a structured workout, a race, a ride, hard or easy, is that it's a shared experience, and when it's shared there is the quality of the unexpected.

here's (according to me, in my experience) a truism: it doesn't matter that much what workout you do. what matter is that you do it. a lot of people (i'm one of them) are motivated, in part, by the group nature of a training session. to me, this discussion is a lot like the kindle discussion. the issue isn't do you like reading on a kindle more or less than reading a physical book. the issue is: are you reading more? it's not how you read the words. it's the words. with a lot of zwifters, and for a lot of TR's users, it's: are you riding more? what platform causes you to ride more?

i'm not saying that this makes zwift better than TR. it's what makes it different than TR. i'm not saying you ought to value that difference. but since you asked, that's the answer.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I'm making an assumption here and guessing there are plenty of people who don't follow a predetermined, structured, power based workout every single ride. I know plenty of people who train mostly by jumping on group rides with fast people. That's what motivates them and gets them on the bike. Others love their indoor structured workouts or zwift workouts or whatever. TR has the huge library of structured workouts. Zwift is getting more. But Zwift, as slowman stated, has races, group workouts, group rides. So it's covering many different ways for people to workout.

Yep.
You can do workouts if you want. Perhaps the library is smaller but it's still got plenty there and you can add anything you want when you want. I do plenty workouts on Zwift and as often as not they're workouts I've programmed myself.

Another session I often do is hill repeats of the small climb in Watopia. I go up it near to the max power I can sustain for the length of the climb, which is the upper end of my VO2max range. I aim for a time on the hill rather than watching the power numbers. It amounts to the same thing but I find it more enjoyable. Then I spin back down easy and roll on a little before turning around to hit the base of the hill at approx 4mins which would be my typical recovery for another hard ascent. 8 of those plus warm up and cool down makes for just over an hour of riding with some good VO2max efforts.
Likewise I've often used the Epic KOM Climb from either side for long threshold intervals. Climb the hill at threshold, spin back down as recovery, and then back up again. It's fairly equivalent to a 2x20min threshold interval session, except it's based off terrain rather than the clock- oh and I take longer than 20mins to get up that hill so it's a harder session than 2x20.

And of course there's the group rides and races.
I also do typical preprogrammed

I tried zwift again recently for a few months after using it during it's beta period. I was impressed with the number of group workouts and group rides/races. I may or may not come back to zwift. I'm still undecided on what I'll do for indoor workouts. I often just do a couple of 1 hour long internal workouts each week on the trainer then do my other workouts on the weekends outside. Right now, I'm using perfpro but Zwift group workouts and group rides are enticing. My training is very casual this year with very little structure other than getting in a couple of hard internal bike workouts during the weekend and then some longer rides on the weekend. I like your idea of doing the hill repeats within zwift. That's a good idea.

Yeah, give it a try. It's a nice change psychologically but the physical stimulus is pretty much the same.
But no matter what way you cut it, I still prefer to get climbing outside if the weather is anyway bearable!

outside is always better and mentally much more enjoyable than being in a room staring at a computer screen. But during the week it makes much more sense as it's such an efficient use of my time. I can just hop on the training and being done in an hour. no driving anywhere to bike.

I started on Zwift. I watched the GCN vid of Si Richardson racing and it seemed amazing!

So I jumped on and raced Richmond on my second day and lol and behold- it was amazing. The feeling of going Mano v Mano was just like a real race!

I progressed quickly into C Cat and then edged my way towards B and by the end of the summer, was starting to wonder who I was racing against. How did Zwift compare to real Crit racing? (I’d only ever done low level MTB racing beforehand)

So I entered a real Crit and got hooked on that! Turns out Zwift racing is good but not a patch on the real thing.

Wanting to make faster progress, I dug out my copy of the Bible and wrote myself a plan.
None of the workouts on Zwift offered what I was looking for I felt.

As I raced more outside, Zwift racing became a nuisance and I backed off.

Then a friend told me about the TR podcast and after a few episodes, I got curious so gave it a try. And what I found was basically The Cyclists Training Bible in app format!!

So now, I subscribe to both. I ride all my TR workouts simultaneously on Zwift to log some Strava data. Then if my mojo is low and I know I’m good for a workout but can’t get my bum in gear- I jump into a very occasional Zwift race.
I’m fat so can still race in B and usually get a great race.

To be honest, TR is worth the money for the Podcast alone. Then add in the workout library and it’s great value. But the real killer is the plans. It’s so great having weekly TSS, calories and nicely balanced yet challenging workouts at your finger tips laid out in an incrementally challenging fashion.

To me-
Zwift is a place. A place to do recovery rides, Hill repeats, races, social spins, your TR intervals and an occasional KOM attempt.
TR is a tool. All the cycling training science you really need wrapped up in a super slick app with all the variety you could wish for.

And when TR launch Performance Analytics- it’s going to make Zwift look like something off of the kids Vtec 🤣

Good post.

Place versus tool. Not a bad way of putting it I think.

I’m not sure, I’ve never loaded a workout into zwift. I let zwift control my trainer in sim mode and adjust my effort just as i would outside with my workout written down on paper.

I like Zwift personally but I think Trainerroad is good as well. I've went away from Trainerroad because I simply do too many outdoor group rides or races to be consistent with the plans. If you're locked in a basement where its snowed in that may be great but SoCal we ride outdoors year round so any plan has to adjust for the outdoors.

What lures me to Zwift is the racing. I can go balls out for an hour at near FTP with very few surges or stops. The only other place around here I can do that is Onyx Summit or Glendora Mountain Road which are unrideable half the year.

Then again, maybe I'll do Trainerroad this winter. After descending and bouncing over a beer bottle at 35 mph in pitch black my opinion of night riding has changed. That being said, I'll still be outside on the weekends.

Ahhh every forum has one. Relax max, no need to be a wanker about it. At first I had in my mind that most people were just jumping on and ‘going for a ride’ as that’s what I see a lot of on Zwift. But now reading all the comments I understand a lot of people are using it for group rides and races and I totally understand how this can be an effective training tool.

Not everyone in the world is out to get you mate..

You're right. I'm the one who's misconstruing stuff ;)

...and don't "mate" me if you don't mind.
I'm just looking out for your own dignity. Anyone who reads that post is going to assume you're a total ass. Might be wise to tweak it a wee bit.

Lol no worries mate

I am addicted to Zwift! I have seen major improvements in my speed and endurance.

Zwift is amazing in my opinion. If used correctly it can have a huge impact on speed and endurance. Sure some people use it for the social aspect and I get that. It has room for both. I’m a pure cyclist venturing into the tri world and for me it’s been incredible.

Let me just say that I have been cycling for many many years. I have always hated riding the trainer. Even as a training tool in the winter. I always much prefered spinning classes or even just the exercise bike at the Gym. So my old trainer just sat in the basement un-used. Thanks to Zwift, I actually now love riding the trainer. This is in part due to the interaction/motivation of chasing people down and the (in my opinion) realistic feel to being outside. It's not a perfect solution, but at least now I look forward to training inside when I can't get outside.

I think it's mostly your mindset. I've been on Zwift using the TP Custom workouts (which are TR planed sessions). For me I can't watch TV while riding my bike, I need to take things in fully and the cycling is a distraction from the videos. To be immersed in the sessions I need to see bicycles moving and then the training session becomes more like outdoor riding. When I am training it's like a Triathlon event where I'm biking through a pack passing people and I "mark men" like a race. Before an interval starts I mark a decently strong rider in the list (up the road say +50s for a shot 3-4 minute interval). During my interval I am in suspense whether or not I'll close the gap before my recovery. Then I repeat that each time.

Maybe that shows how it can be used? Maybe this is just me?

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I have used both TR and Zwift - I find Zwift way more interesting that TR. I like to jump on find a race and jump into the fray. Its hard as crap and that is what I like - it pulls me into a tougher workout than I intended. I have chatted with a ton of friends and most are becoming Zwift zealots. TR is still very cool - I used to use it with the sufferfest videos which I also loved. Cheers Michael

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Michael Hay - helped on the journey by the great folks at ZiZU Optics, (for the custom fit), and Bialkowlski's TRYSPORT

My concern for Zwift is for people who have been using it since beta, not that much has changed. They need to constantly add more content or they will slowly bleed out. At this point there are no more challenges to unlock, no new stuff to unlock, and the map content gets released at a snails pace. The graphics are still light years behind and for many it still crashes on a much to frequent basis. Zwift has a lot of work to do.

I started out with the beta and didn’t really get into it. Came back later and the group workouts, group rides, races were a huge change. Specifically how easy they were to find and join

I welcome new road choices. The recent additions of the Volcano, the Mayan expansion and Alpe Du Zwift in Watopia and the Surrey hills in "London", are certainly worthwhile improvements. Variety is the spice of life.
But, I don't think challenges or unlocking stuff are important to the experience of using Zwift. Similarly, while the graphics may not be spectacular, they do allow people use pretty much any machine to run them. And they're good enough, IMO, not to prevent you "believing" what you see.

I would like to see some developments in the ability to control your own experience:

• I'd like access to a robot pacer or similar visual device to allow you ignore power figures and concentrate on chasing a graphic representation of your target while doing workouts.
• Limit the riders you can see to those you want to ride with, to facilitate informal group rides or those who just want a quieter map.
• Create your own private group rides or group workouts so we can arrange rides among friends
• Provide the ability to review ride data beyond the incredibly basic "Ride Report" splash screen at the end of the ride.

These are all fantastic ideas!! Especially a ghost rider that you need to chase down for a given workout, I’d love that!

I started out in beta and am still a heavy user. This is primarily because I race on Zwift. Sure, I haven't gotten a new level in two years or a substantially new bike/kit/wheels, so there aren't really novel challenges on that part of the "game". However, racing continues to provide a novel challenge because there are plenty of strong/faster/better racers. As the user base grows, there are more available races with more talent, which is what keeps it interesting for me.

An interesting flip side for me is that I find it easier to do recovery rides on Zwift as well. The area I live is all rolling hills, which makes it annoying to do a Z1 recovery ride outside, I usually find that I go too hard on outdoor recovery rides around here. On Zwift, I choose a flat course, put on some music or a show and tool around at 100w when I'm supposed to be recovering. Obviously you could do that on the trainer with any program (or no program at all), but I like that Zwift then records my ride for me with quasi-realistic mileage, etc.

Hey Furiousferret!


You mentioned that an ideal training software for you has to take into account your outdoor rides. I just thought I'd chime in and let you know that we (TrainerRoad) have a new feature-set in Beta called Performance Analytics. This will allow you to import your outdoor workouts automatically from Strava and Garmin Connect. Whenever you complete a ride outdoors, you can then assign that ride to your plan in place of a prescribed ride that it most closely resembles. This update comes with other benefits such as an all-encompassing TSS chart, a personal records chart, and some increased functionality to create intervals and analyze your data.


I've gone ahead and enabled your TR account with Beta access already. If you'd like to check it out the new features, all you need to do is renew your subscription :)



If you have any other question, feel free to DM me directly


Happy training!

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Get Faster with TrainerRoad

[quoteI would like to see some developments in the ability to control your own experience:

• I'd like access to a robot pacer or similar visual device to allow you ignore power figures and concentrate on chasing a graphic representation of your target while doing workouts.
• Limit the riders you can see to those you want to ride with, to facilitate informal group rides or those who just want a quieter map.
• Create your own private group rides or group workouts so we can arrange rides among friends
• Provide the ability to review ride data beyond the incredibly basic "Ride Report" splash screen at the end of the ride.

[/quote]

These are all fantastic ideas!! Especially a ghost rider that you need to chase down for a given workout, I’d love that![/quote]
+1

In large part i come at this from the video game perspective. Even the most successful games run by the largest development studios struggle to keep play count high year after year without significant innovation. The gaming industry used to be on a 1 or 2 year game cycle, then you move on to a new game. Now they are starting to use a 3-4 year cycle. To make this work and keep the player count high they have to regularly release new content or the count drops. It is quite interesting to see the charts and the effect of new content. Furthermore, the implementation of regular challenges, unlocks, and competitive "seasons" help maintain interest.

Zwift is unique in that you have the virtual reality component, social aspect, competitive race simulation, and workout mode with some training plans. Zwift is able to generally stay in the game for a longer time without significant innovation because they have a wide range of enticing reasons to "play". They also benefit from no real challenger at the moment and i am not sure if they are really competing with TrainerRoad in a pure sense, they are slightly different animals.

For Zwift to really thrive and sustain the inevitable challengers in the upcoming years i think they need to focus on a few key aspects. (1) more customization (you can even sell it), (2) better graphic rendering, (3) higher frequency of new content, (4) larger workout library/group workout, and (5) focus on the social aspect. I in no way am trying to put down Zwift, i simply think they have a lot of low hanging fruit to grab and if they don't, somebody else will.

As far as TrainerRoad i also think they will have to make some changes to be seriously competitive in the future. (1) they need to allow for more customization in their training plans, similar to Todays Plan. (2) Better graphical interface, possibly customization with colors etc. (3) wider range of training plans, in particular some higher volume plans that better incorporate and or adapt to outdoor rides as well.

Both programs have a lot of features to offer and i currently pay for both services. I like TrainerRoad and do their workouts three days a week year round. Zwift is more seasonal with the occasional races thrown in. If you want to become a faster cyclist and have limited time TrainerRoad is the best program on the market today.

From a coaching perspective and from talking with my athletes about both platforms

85% of my athletes are on either TR or Zwift, about 1/3 are on both. It used to be about 60% were on both. They have defected from TR to Zwift.

Personally I'm on TR for now. I keep saying I'm going try Zwift and several of my athletes have asked to have a Zwift group ride butwe're scattered across 17 times zones and I'm not riding at 0300, what are you going to do...shrugs shoulders

The biggest problems with TR are
1. they try to cram too much work into each workout. The warm ups and cool downs are almost universally too short The cool downs are 3-5 min range on the majority of workouts.

Before you argue I get you're a time crunched athlete, most of my athletes are as well. In that case it may be even more important to warm up cool down more instead of cramming more intervals into a short block.

2. Some of the workouts are poorly designed. On the other hand it seems several of those have disappeared recently. Maybe they were Sufferfest workouts bc some of those were just idiotic.

I think both have their place. TR probably is more it's time to do work oriented while Zwift is probably more oriented to JRA although you can also do your intervals on there.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

nobody using perfpro? :(

I like TR and Zwift. I think they're both great. I just don't like spending money. and considering my training time indoors typically maxes out at 3 hours a week and is some form of interval workout perfpro works great. But I am attracted to the idea of doing hill repeats in Zwift.

That's awesome! I've for sure check this out at some point this year.

The thing that I would like to see improved in Zwift is a closer time correlation between the power input and what's going on onscreen.

At the moment there seems to be a 3 or 4 second delay before drafting benefit kicks in, or drops out. It means it's sometimes easy to fall off the back of a fast peloton if you are effectively 3 seconds late at hitting the power, and it also means that you can be less smooth with your pedaling power as you're trying to keep your place in the pack but oscillating ahead and back.

I'd also love it more use was made of the ability to follow other riders and if you could liaise with them to organise group rides or turn up for the same races.

As for TR - it's great. Can i get on the Beta test too?

Can you say more about that? I have been trying Zwift and TR recently and had trouble adjusting to the high % of ride time at intensity in some of the workouts (it seems like they might be written to hit high on the IF/TSS?).

If I was to write my own workout, I'd probably do more steady Z2 and less time doing intervals, but feel better during the intervals - so how do I balance this?

Thanks!