Big Lionel fan, but still i can only think "about time". I bet i he got at oceansidethe "okay i produce the same watts maybe even more than Frodeno, yet he is faster than me, i can never make up the gap just through fitness".

"All my best races have been defeats."

--Lionel Sanders

Not much more to say.

No mention of tire selection.

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He's 100% right. The amount of b.s. that happens when going from inside straight to racing outside is crazy.

On the other hand, I think part of what makes Sanders so powerful is the time spent on the trainer. I hope he doesn't switch to predominately outside riding. Instead, I would just sprinkle more outdoor rides in and also switch to mostly outdoor with a few weeks left before race day, and then definitely the last ride before the race.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Agreed. He should stay with the winter indoor beast mode, but then go set up camp in Arizona or something come late Feb-March and spend a solid 6-8 weeks outside. Then keep mixing inside/outside as the year permits.

And wow... Never been in a wind tunnel? THAT is going to be huge.

Gotta be careful though. Changes in bike position are a recipe for injury, especially at the load he pushes. Lionel, if you're reading this yammering, move position very gradually to where they want you to go. You've got 6 months. Do half a centimeter at a time until it feels normal, then move it again. Just like braces on teeth.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

One thing I don't understand.....didn't they already do a lot of work on his position on the track with alpha mantis (or similar)?? So is he now implying they didn't make the correct changes, that there is suddenly so much more to gain?

I'm a big Lionel fan, but sometimes the other guy is just faster...

Yeah. I think the ultimate solution is alternating between wind tunnel and track/trainer to see how sustainable it is in the real world. One trick I've learned for myself is to lower the front until your HR starts climbing because you're struggling to breathe - that's too far. And another is to get your elbows and shoulders in front of your chest enough so that when you bring them together, they don't compress your chest so you can breathe great. All that can be done on a trainer with watts and HR. And then hit the wind tunnel to check out arm tilt, helmet, clothing, and shoes.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Maybe not in a tunnel exactly, but he's definitely worked with Alphamantis / AndyF / MarcG, which is as good/better. Thread is somewhere on here.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

yeah, where i pegged his cda with aero eyeball ;)

Even 5mm at a time can be too much if you are talking about saddle height or setback. I recall that Bernard Hinault "radically" changed his position in the early 1980s - it resulted in his saddle being about 5-6mm higher and he moved his saddle up to the new height over an 18 month period. Gradualism at its finest!

Ha! That's nuts. But totally right. If you are already incredible enough to be a top pro, you don't need to change much. Just very slightly. Since you're already at the top, "don't f*ck it up" as my dad would say. We humans have this huge problem where we want to change too much at once. Start over by moving to a new city, quit your job and start a new career without even having a job lined up, or literally the worst; try a totally different bike position because we see Jan Frodeno on it. (sarcasm, but not entirely)

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

It's not only the need not to move too much but the imperative not to in order to avoid injury. Bernard Hinault damaged his knee tendons in a stage of the 1983 Tour of Spain because his mechanic set his saddle less than 5mm too high. It was a mountain stage, iirc, so the load on the knee was high. It was enough to cause him to miss the 1983 Tour de France after having undergone an operation to repair the damage. He spent the next year getting back to his former level. I have always wondered how he didn't notice that his saddle was too high but I've never been able to ask him. I'd notice if my saddle was mis-adjusted by a few mm and I am nothing compared to what he was on the bike.

It's likely that there were a lot of limitations because of the bike.

I think starting over with a smaller frame and TriRig bars has a chance of making a difference. Certainly there are "free" watts just on the equipment.

But it is also possible that he's going to introduce weight distribution issues, or have to push his saddle back significantly, which could change muscular recruitment. Then he may need to consider circus cranks to counteract that bit. It could be complicated, and will require a lot of iteration.

So a small frame may help with getting lower but it's going to hurt him on his reach, even with a tri rig bar. His elbows are already right over top the axle. I can only imagine a small frame is going to negatively impact handling.

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I think he will need a longer FC if he goes to small...personal opinion from someone who rides outside a bit more.

Having said that this the perfect opportunity for LG to look at their front end from the bars all the way down to variable fork options/brakes/hydration and/or variable rake or fork options for dentists or guys like LS.

2c
Maurice

Based on the post photo on TriRig’s FB page with this announcement, the frame size is fine. The Alpha One should be able to get low enough for him.

He needs to get the pads back to his elbow, maybe some slight forearm tilt, and put the shifters in his hands.

Then, it’s just a matter of practice keeping his shoulders tight and head relaxed below his back.

Also, I think Lionel should ride a Jet 6 up front. At his high speeds, the difference in Jet 6 and 9 is very very small. The 6 will at least affect his steering less and allow him to stay aero more often and more confidentaly.

Finally, I bet Nick can modify the Alpha One nose cone cover to connect to the pivot bolts of the front TRP brake.

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Alex Arman

Strava

That's why I assumed he would be pushing the saddle back. There isn't that much fore/aft adjustment on the TriRig, just the pad placement.

Geo charts say he's losing 17mm in reach and 24mm in stack at the frame. Add in the fact that he *could* use the ultra low TriRig mounts with various high-hand extensions and some tilt hardware under the pads, there might be a little more stack to reduce.

With his morphology, I don't think lower is the best answer, but getting his head down may not be possible any other way with his monster shoulders in the way and possibly limited flexibility.

Over and over, I am surprised when I find my "optimal" height and tilt on a bike, because my shoulders settle in and then my head drops like 3".

After watching the video it just reinforces the stubbornness of the dude. If he had won the race he would be doing exactly"nothing" to change anything right now, even though he has been told by just about everyone who has his ear he needs to make some changes. He still doesn't really get it..

But since he got spanked on what could have been a record setting win for him(minus one particular person showing up) he is all in for making dozens fo changes now. I have said it before, just because someone wins a race, or gets best split, doesn't not mean they did it because they are optimized. Often it is in spite of that optimization, but they read into winning as going as fast as possible..

But then again, it is his stubborn streak that has kept him in the sport this long, and helped him do his 10,000 hours of indoor training. And I loved how he though it would be illegal or somehow cheating to take a picture of Frodo's bike..(-; It's all over this site, and a few others Lionel...

That's a tall order on the Nose Cone. Those bolts are WAY down the fork legs.

Realistically, LG should take that on. Hopefully they have more access to legit CFD than TriRig does.
The headset bearing flares need to be handled properly, which is honestly not that easy.

Yeah, his shoulders are a huge frontal area. Watching some "turtling" tips on GCN, the British are huge into TT championships and finding ways to save watts. If you pinch the shoulders forward towards the neck and bring the elbows out just a bit, you get a big drop in frontal area and also more chest expansion for better breathing and a lower HR.

Looking at older photos of his bike, I remember he had a really long stem. I'd worry about going town a bike size requiring an even longer stem and that could cause steering issues and also a risk of equipment failure? I would just get a custom stem fabricated instead. Get one made with a bend in it.

Just googled some pics of Sanders on his bike. I know this is a one-off and a picture isn't what's going on all the time, but if he rides with his shoulders this wide often, it is a great opportunity to bring them in and reduce drag.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I'm a biiiiig Lionel fan but had to shake my head at this video too. Really dude? As has been pointed out he has been to the velodrome to test, hell there's even a documentary about it. I thought he was taking that stuff seriously starting then?

I don't understand how he could not be obsessed with every little detail all of the time, constantly looking for more optimization. Hell almost all of us on here are and our paychecks don't depend on it.

Responding in general....

Lionel went to the velodrome and worked with Andy after kona 2015.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THupWtBb-A8

Go to ~7:30 into the video.

If he now feels that he needs to rework his bike (again), I am really wondering what the hell he has been doing/thinking since he went to the velodrome.

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I've seen this with a few mates who went to get fancy fits that look great in the studio and some training rides... but in the heat of the moment, when they're pushing hard and fatigue sets in, they forget it all and choke the bars like they're holding on for dear life. Just because the pad X/Y allow for an optimal position, doesn't mean he actually holds it. In fact, in his hours of indoor riding, he might be imprinting a muscle memory of holding his bars wrong.

Lionel's equipment may not be best-in-class but none of it is terrible. The Garneau kit, helmet are top, as are the HEDs. I don't think he'll find his minutes there.

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

What I don’t understand is the “sporadicy” of all of these changes. Isn’t this why you have a coach? Or even a solid advisor? I agree there is some attention to detail missing but you lost to an Olympic Gold Medalist. That’s not a justifiable reason change every single thing you do on the bike.

I'm glad you found this. As thoughtful as what people make him out to be, he's really always behind the curve regardless of all of the knowledge around him. He goes to the velodrome and gets this done... and then later he disregards the changes made because he felt he wasn't low enough and "wasn't using enough of his glutes" so he just slams the front end. Now this latest video comes out and he's going to make all these new changes... and because Jan runs Speedplays i'm going to run Speedplays now. Soon it will be something else... There doesn't seem to be any consistencies, just impulsive decisions.

My 2 cents.

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Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching

Lets not forget that this is also the guy who decided to wear a camelbak under his tri top in Kona a few years ago when nutrition/hydration was his biggest problem with that race. I hand it to the guy for trying, but there is a reason that no other top competitive pro has gone that route there. He spent time changing his position only to basically abandon the whole thing a few months later. It will be interesting to see what sticks this time. Meanwhile the 2 time World and Olympic gold medalist will just continue doing what he is does...

I hope he ordered his Speedplay pedals with long spindles! He pedals a bike like Yosemite Sam ;)

He went there 2 years ago almost day for day.
He made several changes since that he never tested.

-170 cranks
-Better bars - Angled up
-Legs tracking closer to frame
-60 front wheel


Maybe leaving Garneau would be for the better?

These are my predictions. What are yours?

Yep, don’t get me wrong, I’ve become a big Lionel fan over the last 18 months but he consistently shows that he lacks key knowledge areas competitors like Jan excel at. Top level sports is dominated bythe athletes who utilise the people in the world who excel in getting the best out of their athletes. I don’t know Lionel’s full story, but I have to assume he’s had a bad coaching experience or something. Either way what that dude needs is someone he genuinely trusts and a willingness to form long term relationships with the best people he can in nutrition, aerodynamics, maybe even business advice.

When you come second in Kona you’re not exactly the underdog anymore.

A small frame? Is he going to get surgery to remove four inches from his ankles?

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

[quote]Angled up [/quote]

Especially if you're in the M45-49

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

He is already on 165 so you are suggesting he goes longer? Steve and Steve (J and Brandes) really hit the nail on the head in this thread. Lionel has already been to Alpha which I think is probably a better way to go than the tunnel truth be told unless you are a close to a tunnel. Given the amount on the line financially why mess around with this stuff, take it seriously before you make 5 figure mistakes in races. I get everyone is going to have epiphanies in life but the one Lionel isn't having/seeing is he can make all the changes he wants on the bike, and ride all he wants on the trainer, but part of the reason the rest of us tinker around or at least know what we would like to change is we go outside and ride and some things just aren't sustainable. If Lionel wants to commit to changing his position he needs to commit to riding outside. Not all his training but he needs to get out there 2x a week.

Regardless, for Lionel I suspect his mobility is going to catch up with him at some point. I would be curious to see how mobile he is but I wonder about Lionel's run hitch. I wouldn't be surprised if his developing some tension is upper thoracic spine or somewhere which could lead to further issues with his bike position. Maybe he is a supple athlete and I just don't know, but he sure doesn't look supple so I don't know if going lower is really the best thing for him. He still has all that back from the hunchback that is hitting the wind so going lower is just want going to put more tension on everything. Does anyone know what kind of gym routine/strength/mobility Lionel is doing?

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I may be misremembering, but I thought he came away from that alpha session with a bunch of suggestions that he pretty much went and ignored. I seem to remember Andy coming on here to try and make that clear, that the position we ended up seeing wasn't really Andy's work, but trying to say it in a nice way.

Could be wrong.

There are things he tested at the Velodrome but after riding with them for a while made changes because he couldn't hold them.

LOL! You win the internet today.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Albeit faster than most ;)

is that because he mainly trains indoors on the bullhorns? rather than practising being in aero and allowing himself time to adapt?

Yeah it weirded me a bit that the videoed training day he posted the other week he was doing his efforts not in the aero position. I didn't see him go aero at all???

I can't speak to his gym routine, but I would love to know how this TriRig relationship was formed? It seemed to appear quickly after Oceanside and I can't help but wonder if he's pissed off the folks at LG?
Hard to imagine LG being happy about their marquee athlete effectively whining about bike optimization and then going elsewhere to achieve it.

LG doesn't make bars though, which is the primary benefit tririg can bring. Doubt there is too much crossover.

I would fully expect him to make changes. We are all striving for continuous improvement in all facets of the sport as I'm sure Lionel is as well. But it seems he's making changes out of thin air and not using the resources he has available to him or could have available to him if he would simply ask. Why hasn't he been back to the velodrome or to the tunnel?

Why all of a sudden does he feel his whole front end needs re-worked? Why a small frame? I could see experimenting with these changes during the off season but it just seems he made an impulse decision after seeing another pros bike in a race that got beat. A pro who he seems to put on the pedestal and obsesses about. Maybe it's just the way it comes off in the video's and he doesn't intend it to be this way but he idolizes, copies, mimics (or whatever you want to call it) Jan like he's in middle school. He needs to be his own athlete, ask for advice from others, and then form his own opinions. Not just go out and buy speedplay pedals because the guy who most recently beat you rides them.

I don't expect to see a significant gain from a reworked front end. His position isn't terrible in my opinion (when you see it in a static position). A more adjustable bike (like a speed concept) would probably allow him for a more optimum position but that is out of the question for now with the LG deal. IMO, his biggest gain he has yet to find has to do with the rubber that is on his wheels. He could easily save 3 minutes in an IM.

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The one thing I wish for Lionel is to find someone he really trusts to help him with his changes.

He isn't on Gatorskins is he?

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come on, you know gatorskins cost more than 3 minutes in an im.

He goes into this in depth at 8:55 here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOn4zGoZ8Rg

and leaving no stone unturned...all hail the Gatorade Institute!

replying in general, not just to you, steve:

i am surprised no one has outright called out the irony of his epiphany: "wow, Jan pays so much attention to the details of his bike, and spends a lot of time focusing on that stuff!"...

and then he promptly does a bunch of things because that's what Jan did.

as many have pointed out, he's pretty much just throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. which, is better than not changing anything, but not really any more productive, and certainly not aligned with the concept of "paying attention to the details."

i do appreciate his candor, though. he's basically Trumping around triathlon (spouting out whatever comes to mind, without much need to fact check/research). at least him ordering speedplays because Jan rides them doesn't increase the liklihood of a nuclear war.

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@adamwfurlong

Could you explain Brian?

I took that segment as complete joke. Is Lou Frerrigno really his coach? Nothing against Lou, but this isn't about lifting huge amounts of weight. It is to fix imbalances, work on mobility, reduce injury risk, and promote balance among other things. I do thank you for sharing though.

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He could just review the three hundred slowtwitch threads about him, and benefit from the wisdom of the crowds.

More than enough 'experts' here.

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The real question is if he goes to speedplay pedals what Power Meter is he going to use. He's been on the Powertap pedals if I am not mistaken ....

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

I was assuming PT hub since he mentioned the vision aero cranks, but that will create training issues since he's a wahoo kickr guy too.

Edit: but guess he’ll probably still use the pt pedals during training, don’t know.

Maybe he'll get one of those iBike Newton+ ... I've heard they are what Jan uses LOL

All jokes aside it will be interesting to see what he ends up with. Do G3 hubs work with HED Disc? Maybe the chain ring ones are an option?

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

You can order the Jet Disc with a Powertap hub. Remove logos (if there are any) and nobody would know you've got a powermeter in there...

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ZONE3 - We Last Longer

I wonder if he should also order a bag of Frodo's coffee online when he's shopping for the new pedals

Says its "Jan Frodenos secrete recipe"
https://www.ryzon.net/...ts/frodissimo-kaffee

haha, ok now THAT is funny.

He mentioned in one of his videos a while back that he doesn't do strength training because he's afraid of putting on muscle/weight. Not sure if this changed since then?

Sounds about right.

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This is like telling women not to train because she'll change their shape...what an absolute uneducated person.

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

What IF his strength came from WITHIN EACH SPORT? Boooom

I hear Jan is starting to use power cranks and velotrons.

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Be interesting the see the structure of Jan's support team. Lots of corporate $ there and I'm not so sure things are as innocent as we like to believe, in regards to preparation.

Which makes Lionel's run-up all the more incredible.

Lionel's team is too thin. You need a team director and build out duties from there. Way more complex is an F1 team but elements of that can be replaced with people. Lionel would slot in as the driver.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

I had a Frodissmo cappuccino at Kona. Honestly one of the best I’ve ever had....

I guess this is the strength of the team? I bet Bahrain Endurance 13 has these kinds of resources. Be interesting to get a look under the hood at least.

Honestly, this would be a great job. Supporting a fully committed, talented athlete in achieving their goals would be extremely cool.

Designing parts around sponsorship constraints, testing, iterating designs, etc. Mental preparation, as well.

It might be tough to afford a different specialist for each sport for anyone outside of the top 10 or so athletes.

That said, I would really love to see a super talented, unsponsored athlete choose their equipment entirely on merit.

Obviously Lionel has taken a self-directed approach but I don't think that has been ideal. Ultimately you are after priority management and $$ :). I'd probably start with this agile team and positions don't have to be full time. You need the race data on each event, then analyze potential gains and where to move time to realize those gains. So this idea of going at the bike out of Oceanside, might be true, might not. In any case, you could offload all the bike stuff to your engineer and then go to work with the run coach.

Team Director & Financial
Training/Event Support (Nutrition, psychology)
Coaching staff
-Run
-Bike
-Swim
Technical/Data Engineer

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Just picking a frame from the 6 or 8 mainstream superbikes would be an expensive and time consuming process. Think about the aero shootout Kiley and friends did and then multiply that by wheel and front end changes (I think that would cover the main aerodynamics of the bicycle at least).

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

I'm pretty sure that the mens Kona bike record and run record were both recorded on unsponsored equipment. I don't think Cameron Wurf had a bike sponsor last year, and I'm pretty sure Patrick Lange wasn't sponsored by New Balance in 2016.

Thank god. Someone has to finish that story as we've all been left hanging...

Lange ran in Newtons in 2016, but wasn't sponsored. His performance in 2016 earned him that New Balance sponsorship

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Team Zoot 2023

[quote]Just picking a frame from the 6 or 8 mainstream superbikes would be an expensive and time consuming process. Think about the aero shootout Kiley and friends did and then multiply that by wheel and front end changes (I think that would cover the main aerodynamics of the bicycle at least). [/quote]

Wheels are wheels for the most part, that makes that more simple right there. IMO I'd be more concerned about braking performance then which wheel is faster.

There aren't 6 or 8 main stream super bikes worth considering. You can narrow that list to at most 6. Out of those 6 maybe 4 are going to be willing to part with some cash worthy enough to really consider.

It would be pretty easy to do, well the testing anyway. I already know how I'd design it to yield the best aka fastest answers.

The pre-testing work.....that's where your soul gets sucked out.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

To tick all the boxes I'd want to test: Canyon Speedmax, Speed Concept, P5x, P5 rim brake, QR PR6 disc, PR6 rim brake, Scott Plasma 5, BMC Timemachine, Felt IA, Pinerello Bolide TT. Disc or rim brakes on the Cervelo or QR could be eliminated easily with some research but what about the others?

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

You are approaching it from the wrong perspective.

You want to test a lot of bikes that are not worthy. You're trying to find the fastest bike.

He's going to be finding the fastest bike that is willing to pay the most guaranteed $ and/or the highest bonus potential. He may well trade some time for a large(r) guaranteed base salary or for a smaller salary but huge bonus potential. The question becomes how much time and how do you quantify all the variables, like injury/injuries that go into that decision? Do you risk leaving guaranteed money on the table for a 50% higher bonus potential? Do you take the most guaranteed but maybe the lowest bonus potential? Do you go for the fastest bike for you and hope they can afford you (although that question should be answered before you bother to test it) and if not how much are you potentially giving up in base + bonus vs what you may win?

That took me about 4 minutes to figure out based on my triathlon budget/last few seasons spending/winnings for me. But then I've only won $475 over the last few seasons of triathlon and only have 2 races that I have the potential to get paid on this year's schedule.

Out of your list there are 4 I'd consider testing if I was most focused on the fastest bike for me. For him probably less based on your list & current market conditions.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I didn’t know this hypothetical situation had to include sponsorships. I figured it was to find the fastest gear for a pro, period.

You are privy to more aero information than I am, so I personally wouldn’t rule those bike out until tested or I had more information.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

i'm going to throw a wrinkle into this thought process:

i can think of one a pro (and Brian you can probably figure out who I'm referring to), who I believe has at some point or another, consciously decided, or perhaps calculated, that the value in sponsorship money was greater than the value add of a marginally faster piece of equipment that would yield marginally faster race results/payouts. i see this not only in his/her frame decisions, but also in other sponsorship decisions he/she makes - helmets, wheels, even down to hydration setups.

basically, rather than riding one of the fastest frames, fastest helmets, etc, etc, and maximizing opportunities to win races/earn payouts, i suspect he/she's figured out that it's financially more sensible to earn money through the sponsorship contract. and you know what? there's nothing wrong with that at all! this is a profession for all of these athletes, and sponsorship money, when it's an option, is often way more guaranteed than race payouts.

for instance, would i take a free Rudy Project helmet rather than pay $350 for whatever the newest "best" aero helmet is? Probably not. But if RP gave me the helmet for free and paid me a few hundred bucks - is that worth more than whatever cash payout i might win from winning X race?

we have also experienced showing up to a race ready to go, no second questioning our plan, only to have X, Y, and/or Z happen and totally blow up our results. so even if professionals focused only on optimizing equipment, potentially at the expense of paid sponsorship walking, AND having to pay for equipment out of pocket, seems a bit short sighted. pro's gotta eat.

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@adamwfurlong

I had the motivation and economics wrong in my head. I recently got a little more information about prize money and sponsorship money in Triathlon. Since I have never been a pro I had never really looked at it.

My original hypothesis was "get the fastest equipment and win the race - the prize money for 1st place vs 2nd or 3rd and fame for being the winner would be the motivator" - right? If one bike is $6150.00 and another is $10,000.00 who cares if it means you win a big race and the big purse. 1st place prize money will make up the difference.

In the wind tunnel shootout our bike (Tactical) was third - a watt or two behind the P5X and P5. If you include our optimized chain (stock equipment on our bike and good for 5 watts) - the Tactical may be faster on the road - in a race.

If I were to offer (sponsor) a great athlete a Tactical and the bike is better than their current bike with older base bar, exposed brakes/cables, regular chain and older frame - say conservatively we would be 8-10 watts faster; all in - 3+ minutes in a long course race. Of course we would add our Ceramic BB and Ceramic pulleys and make sure the hydration was perfect. 3+ minutes is the difference in many races so that would seem like something to jump on.

The difference in a P500 Long Course race between 1st and 2nd is about $1,250.00 (this is what messes with the equation).

If a different sponsor with a slower bike will also pay race entry fee, travel costs and bonus money ... that $1,250.00 is not so attractive. It might mean not paying the mortgage. Maybe pros that also have another source of income will weigh things in a different way.

Either way it is an interesting puzzle and pros are making difficult decisions..

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Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com

I didn’t know this hypothetical situation had to include sponsorships. I figured it was to find the fastest gear for a pro, period. //

There is no such thing. You could take 10 different pro men and find optimization on 10 different set ups, and you could also mix and match them for some of the same results. There is and never has been a one size fits all in our sport. You show me the greatest aero frame with a 20mph straight on headwind, and I will show you a piece of shit dog in a 20mph direct sidewind. And this goes on and on. You could throw a towel around all the best bikes right now, no one is losing time because of equipment, and if they are it is not really making a difference in their races. No one can know what is going to happen on race day, so everyone is always making their best guesses, and that goes all the way down the line to what tires they are using.


The only really low hanging fruit that I can see, and has been forever, is how you are set up on your bike to begin with. That is everything once people are all on top of the line gear. The rest is just noise. Of course once you have done everything you can, it is fine to quiet that little noise..(-;

[quote]didn’t know this hypothetical situation had to include sponsorships. I figured it was to find the fastest gear for a pro[/quote]

I'm not sure how you separate the two

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I've never worked with a single pro triathlete who doesn't do this.

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Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Here is the prize money breakdown for all prize purses.

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/organizations/pro-membership/event-registration.aspx#axzz3F5NFbgfw

If you look at the prize breakdown at say Steelhead 70.3. It's a $50k race, which is $25k each to M & F. 2nd makes half of 1st in this race. $10k vs 5k. But 3rd makes $3250

Since the prize money breakdown across the board is heavily skewed towards the winner, and the odds of winning are slimmer as the prize money goes up, I think it makes guaranteed money & bonus potential more important. There are maybe 5 pro's on the planet that may need to calculate the dollar difference between 1st and 2nd and their guaranteed money and/or bonus potential

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

yeah, that's borderline shocking for anyone who follows triathlon to think that equipment decisions are not (perhaps heavily) influenced by sponsorships. It certainly is in higher-paying sports and those athletes are getting millions of dollars. In fact, I think you could fairly say that I would expect a pro athlete to pick slower equipment if the money is sufficient. That is guaranteed money; prize money--even if it approaches the sponsorship dollars-- is not guaranteed.

People seem to forget that this is their job. They have bills and families to support too. I realize it is individualized analysis, but the goal may be to make as much money as possible as much or more as it is to "win." There are an infinite number of other jobs in this world that people would have no issue accepting more money even if that meant not outperforming the competition. It isn't a perfect analogy as I realize sports is inherently more competitive, but worth some additional thought.

I feel like that thought process is across all sports. Make as much money as you can then see what happens. It just so happens that in triathlon were talking about hundreds or thousands of dollars and not millions like in the NBA/NFL/MLB. We see a lot of vert players in sports take the veteran minimum for a chance to win a championship. I'm sure if there was enough money to be made in triathlon we would end up seeing that at the end of careers or contracts where pros just race what they want to race and not worry about the money. But as the great Wu-Tang Clang said, "Cash rules everything around me, C.R.E.A.M., get the money, dolla dolla bill y'all".

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Twitter - Instagram

It does but I don’t think the differences in equipment make the same difference across all sports.

No that is true. But losing is losing. No body WANTS to lose a race, game, etc., but also no body wants to not have nice things! Obviously it is way different since a 10 day NBA contract is more than most triathletes probably make in their career outside of the top few. But the posters above did get me thinking about why certain people might make certain decisions.

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Twitter - Instagram

sounds like andy potts, bless his cotton socks!

I wonder how much of this discussion is because Sanders is openly discussing a process other pros do behind closed doors.

For instance, other pros would evaluate their equipment choices and then simply just show up on a small frame and the few equipment changes they've made at their next race and we'd read about them in one of ST's "bike of _____ pro" features buried in a comment on photo 12.

Sanders may just be saying out loud what everyone else does anyway.