I can't believe no one has replied to this yet.

Emilio, on one hand, I agree with you. On the other hand, it's sad to see such a deep tradition of cycling go away.

I think if having podium girls adds to objectifying women, and perpetuates a culture of sexism, then it's fine to go away. And it's a tradition worth abandoning. So I applaud them for doing the right thing.

I must not have been paying attention because I thought the cheek to cheek kisses on the podium at the Tour were as you described - cheek top cheek. Again I will admit I was not watching too closely. Personally I like the the podium girl tradition and don't wish to see it end.

BTW, I really enjoy my De Soto products.

It's funny all the people objecting don't listen to all the podium girls who have a great life experience and get to meet a lot of people they may never have. Society too PC in my opinion but that's just me.

I'd prefer if the people mingling with big wigs are male and women athletes who get the access because of athletic performance. The models, they can get their access to important people at fashion shows, and we'll all tune into the eye candy at fashion shows, or hollywoood, or elsewhere on instagram....I'd prefer is the athletic venue is for athletic performance. It was hard enough to coach teenage girls and keep them engaged in sport when they are being pulled a bunch of different ways. At least if there were better opportunities for women in sport where they can be on the podium for 21 evenings in July because of athletic performance vs modeling beside men athletes, I think it would send a nicer message to girls in sport.

Until the removal of the TdF podium girls, the message from the premium bike race was, "we don't really want women athletes here, but you're welcome if you want to compete for a modeling side gig slot". Now it's just, "OK this is a boy's only club for skinny bean poles who can TT or underweight midgets who can climb on bikes"....hopefully they can get to including some more women's racing on more days now. They did it in the 80's, 90's and 00's

I was in the Canadian Armed Forces when front line combat positions in the infantry and as pilots became open to women. That was in the 80's and remember Joan Benoit running 2:25 at the 84 Olympics, PNF going sub 9 at Kona and top 20 in 1989....so all of this really feels way behind some of those sporting advancements. Jeannie Longo and Maria Canins were fighting it out in the TdF Feminine back in 1985-89 swapping the top spot in the race all through those years. I believe the women's TdF has 15 stages in those years and they had a similar length women's Giro. At least the women's Giro is still there.

Dev

Women are not simply ornaments. Podium girls are really outdated.

Now perhaps they can offer a proper Women's Tour, with proper stages and proper money.

It's time that cycling dragged itself from the dark ages.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

With the money coming from where? Races I'm afraid are a capitalist venture and public interest generates sponsors which in turn generates bigger races and prize purses. If no one stands to make money from a race it won't be run and unfortunately that seems to be the case.

Fortunately in triathlon where no one cares about pros we can use all the age grouper entries to cross subsidize both mens and women's racing (there was a time when triathletes actually cared about pros). I would generally agree with you that there are more men than women following sport in general, so the advertising eyeballs generally come from men. I am watching Premier League Football right now and there is no women's soccer to watch on TV EVER aside from the Olympics. So cycling is not the only sport with this challenge.

But, why is it any more interesting watching a men's cycling race than a women's race. The reality is that none of us can visually tell how much faster the men are going. I can visually watch women's soccer and men's soccer and see a big gap in ability level. In cycling, I can't see anything. In XC skiing, I can't see any difference. In swimming I can't see any difference. So really the only diff between men's and women's cycling is just how the racing is presented to the audience. This requires some level of effort by the media and race organizers to actually present the sport. This is a chicken and egg argument. As I said earlier, the battles between Jeannie Longo and Maria Canins in the 80's in the women's tour and giro were pretty legendary if you got to watch, and read about it (I am a French speaker, so got to follow it all in the print publication L'Equipe).

There is "no interest" in women's cycling, because WE (I use that collectively as it is generally men in their 40's to 60's) controlling media and race organization don't have a will to present women's racing. There is no good reason why men cycling fans can't get equally excited by watching women's racing vs men's racing. The Rio Olympics road race on the women's side, was one of the most interesting bike races of 2016 and women's track is just as interesting as men's.

The no interest is due to lack of will by media and organizers, it has nothing to do with the actual sports competition. The only way to change this is media and organizations. Triathlon generally got it right out of the gate. In XC skiing, the women stars are the racing is generally well received by media and organizers have to have the women's races, so it's not even an option to cut their racing out of the loop.

Most of the sports where there is "no interest" in women's racing are older established pro sports where the media is locked into showing men's racing and competition only (think big 4 in North America, Soccer, Cycling)

And since this forum is U.S.-centric, I'll bring up that the U.S. women just won the team pursuit again, and Jen Valente is looking like she's going to step right into Sarah Hammer's shoes as a top omnium rider.

While this may be true for the few individuals who become podium girls, most people (myself included) feel that these small benefits are outweighed by the archaic perception of women as objects (sorry, "models." Which, it turns out, is just another word for objects) that harms women as a whole. If the experience is so great, why don't we have podium guys this year?

Dev, I agree it is unfortunate women's sports are not more popular and I think some of this is indeed on the supply side. Yes the media plays what consumers demand, but if ESPN were to spend half as much time covering women's sports as they spend covering the NFL draft/combine, I think it would make a difference. That said, in the U.S., cycling is not the platform for this. In Europe that may be different, but in the U.S. we are lucky they even show the TdF.

You clearly value top performing women athletes over TdF podium girls.* Are you sure that one path is better for all women? Is being a lawyer better than being a business woman? Is being a singer better than being an actress?

Why can't women choose their own path without the interference of you and your ideas about what is a good role for women?

Each career path has it's dark side. Instead of being judgey about women and the paths they choose, why not work to shine light on doping, eating disorders, and other measurable problems?

I don't see a good underlying principle to support eliminating the TdF podium girls. My position is that women should have the opportunity to freely pursue whatever career they want.

*I'm no historian, but it seems to me that not long ago women were shamed for choosing athletics over being pretty. Now we shame them for choosing to be pretty over athletics. We've come a long way.

I'm indifferent on the podium girl debate but I do hate when people (of any culture or background) try to greet me with a kiss on the cheek. Cheek to cheek or lips to cheek I hate it.

I really enjoy everyone talking about how mistreated and offended these girls should be, yet someone forgot to tell them. All the quotes Ive seen from the girls are sheer disappointment that they're out of a job they enjoy. Lets keep being offended by literally everything and nothing all at the same time

Chalk up another pseudo victory for the PC crowd ... and one more reason not to watch the TDF.

Is it possible you've missed the point or skipped ahead because you assumed you already knew what the objection was? Imagine a well paid Hollywood actor plays a part that is a bit behind the times and offends some people. Do we ask the actor how they enjoyed the pay and being part of the film or do we ask the people who are offended?

The point I see people making is what does having women in this sort of role say about how women's roles in wider society? Particularly when the TDF has an obvious inequality in the opportunities for male and female cyclists.

Personally I think it looks a bit out dated but there are worse offenders in the world of sports. I do think you have to view it in the context of current attitudes to women, particularly in that part of Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/...ssment-sofie-peeters
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-bise-73-colleagues/

No one is more "judgey" about women and the paths they choose then...women. I'm on the "let the podium girl job disappear into the mists of time with the rim brake" side because something like ~90% of the pro and amateur women I know, and whose opinions I respect, are pretty firm on this one. They tend to be in the Rousey camp. Also it has nothing to do with shaming "looks" - that's a total red herring. It's the "job."

I am shaking my head because you are not seeing the forest from the trees. There are only so many avenues for women athletes to showcase their excellence. There are an infinite number of avenues of beautiful women to showcase their beauty (or for beautiful guys to do the same). I have no beef with people leveraging their God given talents (you can't be a protour male or female rider without winning the genetic lottery too).....can we just devote cycling for cycling and beauty contests and catwalks for that?

If I said, that we can have women in the Silicon Valley or Wall street board room as accessories to the real business showcasing their beauty but not their brain power (just shut up and hand out pats on the back to top performing employees invited to the monthly exec meeting for a performance award), how stupid would that sound? Yet it's OK in the Wall Street or Silicon Valley equivalent for cycling?

I don't know if you are a man or a woman, but I think you're missing the big picture. No one is asking beautiful women to not seek out gainful employment. It's just that in a strategic corporate move, the company decided that they no longer need those positions (thank you Amory Sports) for their business and associated strategies. Companies cut positions all the time and pivot strategies in a different direction. There are casualties when this happens....the Paris runway, Hollywood, Madison Ave etc etc are all open for business where showcasing beauty is core to the business strategy.

I respectfuly disagree-- I think men judge as often as women, and men can be just as harsh in their judgments as women.

What's up with the "Don't be a DNB"? Is that anything beyond one example of a woman being judgey? You're right, though. That's pretty judgey.

You're also right that the issue is not about looks. It's about jobs.

I'm sorry I'm not replying and linking the posts up correctly. I need to review how to do that. Or get an intern and have him do it!

Sure, but you're looking at it in terms of what one individual wants to do: why should someone say that a woman can't be a TdF podium girl if she wants to. This is a sort of libertarian view that tends to do away with the underlying principle you're not seeing, but at some point there would probably be a woman who chooses a career path that is too much for you (maybe not until a law is broken -- like why can't a woman choose a career selling drugs? -- but even then, who are we to make laws that keep someone from making money if they're okay with it).

People who are in favor of doing away with things like podium girls look at from the perspective that it is the kind of thing that actually stands in the way of women being able to have more access to a variety of roles/careers.

I agree with you that humans are judgy of other humans....does not matter which gender. Can we also agree that corporations are allowed to have changes of strategy and cut whatever jobs they want or grow whatever jobs they want in support of the company strategies. So the people who just got laid off because their positions were downsized can go find another employer that values their market skills. It could be another sporting event organizer (I really hope not, but that's my choice), or it could be film, modeling, media etc.

PS. I've had the same view of cheerleaders, even when I played high school football. I thought it was rather dumb that some of my classmates only had the option of coming out to cheer, rather than play, because on the track team, I ran with my female classmates and in soccer we had a parallel women's team....and that was back when I was 16-18 with hormones bouncing off the wall, and I still thought it was dumb that my female classmates were out with pompoms...I guess I valued the girls on the track team and soccer team more (there, I was being judgy of the cheerleader girls....sorry).

Dev,

I tend to think that athletes and models probably face similar challenges in their careers. For both, it's very competitive. Making an actual living during and after an athletic or modelling career is difficult. Both rely on the cooperation of their bodies to perform. Both might be tempted by doping/drug use to gain an advantage. Both probably have a high incidence of eating disorders. Both can be exploited and mistreated. Parents and guardians beware!! I'm just guessing about these challenges because I don't have any personal knowledge about either career.

Edit: both professional athletes and models are representatives of companies. I think their opportunities to earn money might be similar and, in fact, merging together.

What I hear you say is that you want women in the office to businessy. And women at sport events to be sporty. And fashionable women need to limit themselves to Fashion Week and fashion magazines.

There might be an underlying principle that I like there! You would like an appropriate display of sexuality in the various spheres of public life. I agree. It's not good to have strippers causing a distraction in a classroom or courtroom. That's a glaring example of what would obviously be considered not appropriate.

Public opinion appears to agree with you that podium girls are not appropriate. But I'm not a prude like the rest you. So, I guess I can only agree to disagree. : )

Heck I am not prude....my head will spin in circles when a beautiful woman passes by just like most guys. I'll end up focusing on the podium girls way more than Nairo Quintana and Froome at the evening awards after watching them all stage....but see the problem there? They are distracting from the main show, and I find it hard to take that they are at the evening podium and women cyclists are not (this comes back to my higher respect for my female track teammate vs my classmate cheerleading beside my football team....sure I checked out the cheerleaders, but that's beside the point).

I also get podium girls loving their job, I get it. Who would not love a job kissing champions and smiling for the camera and hanging out with bigwigs every evening and getting paid. If I could sign up to be a podium guy at a women's fashion show (or at a women's bike race), and get paid for that, heck, I'd drop my tech startup in a heartbeat LOL, but just cause I want it does not mean this job should really exist. We all like attention. The swimmer mom checking out my six pack on the pool deck made me feel good today. We all like some attention from the other side....getting paid for that is even better!!!

As a female TDF watcher/fan, I'm all for the discontinuing of podium girls. I found the whole thing pretty lame.

The reality is the public demand what we watch and the media follow if there is an opportunity to make money as well. In all honesty being a male in the age group you specified I have watch women's road cycling just like I have watched women's tennis. Now this isn't a sexist thing but neither interest me and I turn them off purely based on having watched what the men can do. In cycling the men's attacks are more ferocious and more of them, and the sprints I can definitely faster, more competitive sprinters and more exciting to watch. As with men's tennis being more physical, faster and bigger shots. Yes I enjoy watching women's swimming, track cycling, downhill skiiing and certain sports seems shorter events against the clock but I don't seek them out like I do the mens. The reality is that men watch sport and women don't as much so you have the situation we are in. Did you watch the winter olympics half pipe and slope style and tell me one wasn't more exciting than the other? One I watched, the other I went and did something. Sad to say but that is just the reality of what we are dealing with in a capitalist society. Maybe based on that being once again a male in the age group specified, maybe stuck a little on tradition and like seeing pretty girls for no other reason would like to keep the podium girls. All for the girls races having attractive young guys hand them a trophy at their races...

This would be fine if it where coherent. Podium and umbrella girls are being dropped because it objectifies women, cycling, formula 1, etc. But... no the same people have no issue to compe in Dubai, Abu-Dhabi, Qatar, etc. where women don't even have the same rights. It sounds like BS to me.

Disagree. It's like doing away with "cheerleaders" for foot/basketball.

Take away the beautiful women and men have less desire to succeed in X activity.

Oh come on. The podium girls have eff-all to do with any pro cyclists motivation to reach a TdF podium.

Most sports have no podium girl equivalent. Guys compete because they want to clobber the shit out of each other. And if women are a factor, it's more about the women you're allowed to have social interactions with, not podium girls.

I have been here for a few years. This PC was my last straw. I know it does not matter but i will not be back.

I don't know what it is with this modern penchant for immediately boycotting something at the drop of a hat. I'm fighting this with half my friends who are "boycotting" Giro/Camelback over gun things, and the other half who are "boycotting" REI over gun things.

I hope this social media penchant for the self-announced personal boycott is a short-lived phenomena. Though I tend to think that about 50% of them are by people who weren't going to watch/buy the thing anyway, and the other 50% are just lying for rhetorical purposes.

PC can go to hell (not pink)

I certainly can't eyeball the speed difference between the men and the women in pro cycling.

I do think there is a significant difference in the style of racing as a result of there being much less strength in depth in women's cycling. Whether that makes for a more or less interesting race is down to personal preference, but it does seem that the podium in the women's races tends to come from a smaller pool of riders, and that the stronger women can win in multiple different types of event where the men have to specialise more. E.g. riders like Vos and van der Breggen palmares include top stage races, one day classics, time trials, and in Vos' case track cycling as well. Go back 30-40 years and the men's sport was similar with the likes of Merckx and Hinault being able to win almost any format, but these days that doesn't happen. Some of the top stage racers are competitive time triallists, but they don't have the speed and punching power to win classics. Some of the top time triallists have the punch to win classics in a breakaway, but can't get up the hills quick enough to win the grand tours.

You're right that that's a chicken and egg situation - the depth should build as more money and attention attracts more women to turn pro. Whether it ever catches up with the men's sport is questionable. The reality is that watching cycling is as much about the history and the tradition as it is about the spectacle. Most of my enjoyment of getting into the Tour de France as a kid was exploring that history. Learning about the legends of the sport, the iconic battles up famous mountains, etc. The sense that you were watching something that mattered, simply because of the number of people out lining the route and the amount of coverage. The women's sport can't recreate that any time soon. Which is why I can't help but think that their best chance is to hold races at the same time and venues as the men's events where the media coverage and spectators are already there - I don't think it is coincidence that many of the best-known sportswomen are from tennis and the various Olympic sports where the women's competitions take place alongside the men. Whether it's logistically possible (and safe) to fit in meaningful women's stages on the same days and roads as the men in the Tour de France is another question.

What is political correctness? It's an attempt to use more inclusive language or challenge discrimination against a historically disadvantaged group. It can be clumsy but it is an attempt to be better or do the right thing.

In the context of this thread I'd ask why trying to make society a bit less sexist is so infuriating for you? Does people trying to do the right thing upset you so much that you would damn them?

You exemplify one issue many have with the PC crowd. You automatically assume that what you're doing is the right thing and the other side is the wrong thing.

As for your first couple sentences, it shows another issue many have. The new "hip" thing to do is to throw a big F you to 99% of the population in order to accommodate 1% and then go on to proclaim yourself as progressive and a positive difference maker.

In regards to sexism, which of the following is more sexist?

-Allowing women who happen to be beautiful use their talents to work in a job they enjoy that allows quite a few cool experiences.

-Tell them that because they're beautiful they can't do what they want because someone else says beautiful women can't use their beauty to their advantage.

I think you think I'm trying to ban podium girls.

I tried to define something to try and understand the rage in what I responded to. Then I asked a question. Personally I won't miss podium girls but that is besides the point. I haven't suggested banning them and actually I haven't suggested anything. If you did want to discuss why the whole PC thing is so incendiary then I'd be listening.

Last time I checked, the female population was much, much higher than 1%.

And who said pretty girls can't race too? (amongst other talents)

I'd love to see the podium girl $$$ being spent on building a TdF race for women instead.

Excellent decision TdF.

To respond to OP, doesn't bother me if it's cheek or lip to cheek :)

So they HAVE to race? Maybe allow them their own free will. Some women do race. Some work in cycling in other capacities. There isn't much of a market for it even if they did build a women's TdF with the same resources they do with the men. It just isn't nearly as interesting or competitive, which is why it doesn't currently exist on the same level.

I usually turn off the race after the finish so I couldn't care less if there are podium girls, but to act like you're progressive and making a positive difference by banning them is simple-minded.

I agree that the best way would be to have a women's TdF that has the same stage finish city on the same day. Would it even be possible? I don't know, but where there is a will, there is a way. It seems like it "COULD" be possible to have a women's circuit race in the finish city that uses some of the same roads that the men will finish on. Finish the women 2 hrs before the men so that eyeballs can then go to the TV for the final 2 hrs of the men's race. Podium ceremony for all with the men. 10-14 stages, of lengths common for women's racing not that I am advocating shorter women's races, mainly that something is better than nothing, and you can fit in 2+ hrs of women's racing during the first 2 hours of the men's race when not much is generally going on.

I do agree that the most eyeballs go to women's sport when there is a concurrent men's event. May as well go with the flow.

All the talk about beautiful people having the right to work is cool provided there is a job to be done. If there is no job in the TdF to apply the beauty to, they still have a right to that job, its just that the corporation is not offering to fill that position. A beautiful or ugly person can apply till they are blue in the face, but if there is no job opening, well, you can keep applying and want the job, but it's not gonna happen. All kinds of positions get cut by companies even when we want to keep those jobs....been on both sides of the chopping block. No one gets to keep a job because they just want the job. It really depends on the company opening up positions (or not).

Strade Bianche just did something similar I believe, where the women's race went off before the men. Granted it is a much bigger procedure to put on a TDF stage than it is with SB. The issues would be:

1) Do you televise the women's race or the beginning of the men? Most people would much rather watch the beginning of the men which defeats the purpose of doing them on the same day.

2) Who pays for all the extra resources to keep the course safe and closed for the women? The mens race will draw the crowd and drastically increase the cost of putting on the race, but having a women's race the same day won't really bring in any more money to make up for it.

Maybe split screen coverage with the men's race in a box in the top right corner early in the day....if something major happens you flip the boxes to provide the update on the men's race and then go back to the women's racing...the reality is not many watch the first few hours of the men's racing as it is generally a snoozefest, unless it is a 100K long stage and you have Contador attacking from the starting line...since he's gone, may as well watch a womens' race filled with attacks.

As for who pays for the costs, I realize that this is wishful thinking that ASO will pony up...but we can hope...even a 9 day race (2 weekends and the week in between) would be awesome and even if they are a bunch of city center crits, plus a hill stage or two and a TT...just something.

Yes it is time to stop forcing women to do this... Oh wait, they aren't forced at all. This is the stupidest thing ever. Stupid PC culture

It is completely possible to build up the same interest for a women's race as the men's, this has happened in some sports but probably more challenging for the ones that have been historically male dominated. It is up to the TdF to set the right tone and inject the adequate resources and publicity to make this happen.

Personally, not a fan of TdF (the podium girls aren't a good look to me but not the reason I don't watch it) but if there's a women's race, I would certainly watch and support it.

I was at about 5 or 6 stages last year. No way they have room for another 10 buses, teams, crews....Most villages they go through are maxed out. The roads, hotels etc could probably not absorb it.

x1

Which is a twist on the normal '+1' or 'x2' way of agreeing with someone? Sorry if I am explaining your joke but it's hard to spot sarcasm sometimes. But it is just possible that you meant to agree and entirely missed how arithmetic works.

Your saying there should be equal this and that and what should be done coming up with suggestions and you don't even realise there is a women's pro tour race finishing on the Champs Elysees hours before the TDF men's race finishes there putting them in the biggest spotlight. You can only shut down the Champs Elysees for one day a year. As for Stade Bianche I think it is better the day before so everyone is already there but complete focus on the women's race. Having the men's race would only detract from their race IMO where they should be in the spotlight for pre race day press conferences, trophy presentations etc.

I am aware of the women's racing during the TdF...3 stages is a bit of a joke though.

Next year only one mountain stage:

https://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/blog/2017/10/19/women-real-losers-after-2018-tour-announcement


By the way, this is my preferred version of podium women, but it appears this will only happen on 1 day






Tour of California a bit better at 3 days, but why not all days?

Your PC culture is forcing the race director spend money on podium girls even though almost all other sports have moved on. Everyone is PC. We just have different politics.

First of all I don't believe any of these ladies make their living from being a podium girl. It is just a gig if you are pursuing or actually working in a modeling career. It was probably a pretty decent exposure event, so for that it would be a loss to them. Not sure what they made in $$, but assuming it cost the TDF something to schlep them around, dress, house, feed, promote, and probably pay them. So there may have been pressure financially, just bringing that up as no one else has.

And to me that is exactly what they were, professional models being hired to spruce up an otherwise pretty boring event, the awards ceremony. While they are at it, get rid of the politicians and other notary folks(although I can't name one of them except the Badger) and just let the athletes get the hell out of there and to their mobile hospitals.

Is it some of your opinions that we should get rid of all modeling? And if not, how is this job any different? And if so, really??

Yes, we do. I believe people can do what they want as long as it doesn't effect others. You believe that you know better than everyone else and strive to suck the fun out of everything.

Awww! That was harsh, man.

Think you'e replying to the wrong person? I'm all for keeping the podium girls based on tradition and I like looking at them.

Sorry, not at you directly. And I'm not really advocating for them or not, just pointing out that it might be silly to be making this some kind of women's right argument. It could just be a simple business decision thrown onto the back of some murky #metoo theme, or something to that affect. Society is very touchy at the moment, and their seems to be a big pendulum swing going fast towards real and/or perceived grievances against women as objects. I'm just wondering it we are going to get rid of an entire industry which employs such women.

What would be cool is to have interesting or people of notability from the area take the podium girls' places in each location. Would be cool to learn something about what's going on there and maybe some good human interest stories.

They are the ten plus other people on the podium that the winners used to shake hands with after the kiss from the girls

so i'm from france and this kissing thing is a cultural thing.
in the morning, boys shake hands with each other, boys kiss girls, girls kiss girls. you go to a high school in the morning, and you see the show.
now that you mention it, i've never ever thought about the using lips or not. it's just a peck. you dont do it and you offend people. nothing sexual at all.

that said, why those women on the TdF podium? very good question. it's like models at car shows or cheerleaders on the football field. it's indeed time to end this....if the girls/women want to end it.

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Great idea, drop them all and use their budget to pay the next few athletes down the line who were out of the prize pool.

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Vinnie Santana, Multisport Coach
http://www.ironguides.net
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Clearly you're view is that it's about the podium girls themselves being exploited. I really don't think that's what concerns most people. Certainly not me. The job is there, some will take it. It may be enjoyable, lucrative, provide opportunities, whatever..... that's not the point.
The point is the reason for the job to exist and how it reflects on, and influences society.
Pose women in roles where they are there as nothing but "eye candy" and you're reinforcing the idea that this is what women are good for and that it's legitimate to expect women to make themselves attractive and subservient. From that perspective it doesn't matter whether the women concerned are exploited, well paid, love the job, or otherwise..... it matters what role they play and how it's perceived. Their well-being is important. Healthy society is more important.

It happens in advertisement, tv, movies, your news and weather reader, you name it generally attractive people 'eye candy'. People are entitled to their views and good on them but it's hardly contributing to an unhealthy society, nothing changes and the world getting too PC for me.

So your rationale is that it happens everywhere and therefore there's no point addressing it?
I'm glad we don't all take your position or nothing would ever change.

How do you justify the statement that it's "hardly contributing to an unhealthy society"? Do you really think it has no effect? If that were true it wouldn't be done in the first place. It does have an effect, that's why ads, TV, movies, focus so much effort on sexualised images - they hugely influence the ability to sell stuff because they massively effect us.

Seems to me you're just turning a blind eye and saying it's not your problem. As far as I'm concerned, "PC" is saying something because it's the done thing. Saying or doing something because you think it's right isn't "PC", it's being a decent human being with integrity. Sure, there's some "PC" nonsense, but don't use that as an excuse to turn a blind eye when on closer examination you may find a real problem.

LOL really? I like looking at podium girls.

Of course you do.
That doesn't mean I agree they should be there.

People like having slaves, smoking, eating vast quantities of high sugar/salt/fat foods, owning guns, and taking recreational drugs. That doesn't make these things harmless.

Someone needs to give you a cape.

See now you're not even making an argument. Just being ignorant.

Go on, explain what that comment means....

You're getting too heavy for me to really debate on a triathlon forum and nor do I care to after work. Get a cape refers to go and make a difference in the real world then rather than tap away on a keyboard to someone as ignorant as me.

You don't seem to think beyond the podium steps on this one. The use of podium women objectifies all women which in turn reinforces men's perceived dominance over women and in the end makes all women less safe on the streets.

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2024 Races: Taupo

You don't seem to think beyond the podium steps on this one. The use of podium women objectifies all women which in turn reinforces men's perceived dominance over women and in the end makes all women less safe on the streets.


Ive been married LONG time and I can tell you I'm a figure head not the king of the castle.

Too heavy? Emmm, okay. Not sure how to sugar coat it for you.

As for making a difference in the real world..... I'm doing what I wanted to do, discussing the topic and trying to persuade others who seem to be missing the point, that they should support change. If this is not real, I fail to understand why. Are you real?
The whole point is changing attitudes. That's typically best accomplished by example and sometimes, with luck, through discussion. Getting purely cosmetic girls off podiums is about addressing the example issue. I'm discussing it. What am I missing?

.......and don't you think you might be the one that's confused when you think capes describe reality?
That would be super-hero comics and movies, no? Grown up's sometimes try thinking and talking......

With all of the real world problems we have it's crazy how much time is spent protecting those who may or may not be offended from something that's harmless. Podium girls are one of many of these topics.

It's not about being offended. It's about how women are perceived and treated in society. If you can't see the connection between women being accepted as nothing more than cosmetic adornments in public arenas such as major sporting events, and social discrimination, that's stunning!

If you are going to have a discussion with someone like Ai_1 who is making an intellectual discussion, then it's not about him or you, it is about the topic at hand. Trust me, I love looking at the podium girls over Nairo Quintana....but just because I'd rather look at those two woman than Nairo in the middle of the sandwich being kissed, it does not make it right for them to be there in the first place. Me liking the eye candy showcase is not a logical reason to keep perpetuating these women as some kind of "prize" for men who performed is a bike race. As I mentioned elsewhere in the thread, it would be like having employee of the month at a company on Wall Street or Silicon Valley and that person going up to get their prize from the CEO and getting kissed by some podium girls that the CEO hired to give out the prize...now how stupid would that be? It would be totally unacceptable.

Values in society change over time. The ASO did the right thing by moving on from this old tradition, that was not adding any value to the image of women's position and implied value in society.

It's OK for a corporation to cut jobs when corporate strategy/mandate changes. This is what has been done. I don't think we have to worry for these models. They will find other jobs where they can apply their genetic lottery winnings. Its just not going to be at the TdF.

You find anyone that doesn't fall in line with your opinions as stunning.

Nope. I'm quite used to that.

Want to address my actual point now? Or were you just planning to obfuscate?

It's been addressed in previous threads, no need to rehash it. You can look back if you care to.

What?
You're the one who responded to my post, with a position that doesn't obviously deal with anything I had said or asked in the thread. After I tell you why I disagree with what YOU said, rather than provide anything whatsoever to substantiate your initial claim or put it in context, the best you can do is tell me there's something, somewhere that addresses what I say if I want to go look?
I don't even know what you think I should look for since you don't seem to understand what I'm saying.

Are you by any chance joking?....because I'm laughing!

While I mostly post this as a joke:

"Societies needs come before the individual's needs." -Adolf Hitler

It can be argued that we run into a little trouble when we let a loud minority dictate what is best for everyone else. That is my main issue with Pc culture.

Bit of a pause in the conversation while we all reflect as Godwin would want is to.

This thread proves that argument.

Part of the problem here is that, for many people, something like an online triathlon forum is the only place they engage in an "intellectual" discussion on a variety of issues.

The bit you quoted was in response to me. I asked the person who wrote it but they didn't respond. If you are supporting their statement then maybe you can tell me what I am 'doing' that I am deluded about being the right thing?

I started writing something supporting the need for someone to manage a podium ceremony just because I was surprised no-one had actually made that case. But it got far too long. I can see both sides of the discussion. I am not calling for it to be banned but I won't miss it if it's gone. I am interested in how a ceremony will run smoothly without someone helping the winner on with a jersey. I guess we will find out at the Paris-Roubaix if that is their next race.

But you are absolutely right. I am stuck at home atm and I find the whole issue interesting. So I this is the alternative to discussing it with someone in person.

You are quite the piece of work. I didn't reply to your post exclusively, I replied to the thread as a whole. Get over yourself, I owe you nothing. If you want a joke, take a look in the mirror.

"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" -Spock

Both quotes are no more than a distraction. Both are simple assertions without rationale. And whether they were said by Hitler, Spock or me is irrelevant to their legitimacy. So I'm going to ignore quotes if that's okay.

However, I do agree that a loud minority shouldn't hold sway. I also firmly believe that "PC" orthodoxy is as much a hazard as a solution to societal problems. I believe compassion, integrity and open argument are the route to fairness and avoidance of the pitfalls you mention. That's why I am so frustrated when people intentionally misconstrue another's position or fail to provide rationale for their own, as may be obvious ;).
I have no interest in correctness for show. I want fairness as far as it's possible to provide it, and transparency of motive from those thwarting it. This is of course at odds with commercial priorities.

In this particular case, I am far from convinced that there is a loud minority arguing over something silly, as many seem to suggest. I think those who pose this as an issue about the well being of the women employed as podium girls are utterly misconstruing the argument. I don't have any major concerns about those individuals, nor is my argument in any way undermined by them liking the job they're doing. Why would it be?

I see a conflict between the supposed aspiration to equality and respect, the outrage against those who disrespect or abuse women in various ways every day, and the reality of putting women on display purely as sexual objects. These are not compatible without some real mental gymnastics. Of course human beings are great at those, but they have nasty consequences.

Just curious if someone is going to tell the organizers at the upcoming South Beach event that they need to fire the cute models that hand out the finisher medals? Or is this just a France PC thing we are talking about. Come to think about it, I guess all the women who are employed by car shows, boat shows, NASCAR, NFL cheerleaders, PGA, LPGA, European tour golf tournaments, etc, etc, etc need to be notified as well. Any volunteers?

I'm not convinced that podium girls have a bad effect on society. I haven't heard any compelling argument or analysis about it-- I only hear that the podium girls make some people feel uncomfortable or feel like women are objectified.

Do sexy women make you feel uncomfortable? That's your problem, in my opinion. Why is it the problem of the sexy woman? Look someplace else if you don't like it.

If sexy women are objectified, why is it their problem? Shouldn't we blame it on the person who objectifies, rather than the sexy woman? I predict that high heels, miniskirts and push up bras will be blamed next. We'll need to get rid of those so women won't be objectified.

Please discuss a general principle that can guide our thinking on this debate, such as personal autonomy, freedom to live and work without harassment, personal responsibility, freedom of expression, etc.

You're saying this like this might be something new to the conversation. There's no difference at all.

Good points. And if you really dig into things, you'll find that the "huge" number of people who object to stuff like this are actually in a very small minority....but thanks to social media can be made to appear like a much bigger following. Not saying the case with the TDF but in many other cases.

Aimed at me?
I haven't blamed anyone but societal acceptance of objectification as a normal practice. I've certainly not blamed any women or their clothes. If you disagree, please be so good as to provide a quote.
This obsession with finding an individual to blame for everything is going nowhere. It's neither the girls fault or the viewers fault. I have no problems with people being attracted to each other. That would be absurd.

I thought you said something to the effect that podium girls create an unhealthy society. I'm sorry if I responded to the wrong person.

Instead, I understand that you blame society as a whole for the objectification of women. And the objectification of women is related to podium girls.

Society is really just a bunch of people organized by a set of rules that they agree on. Typically, the rules are the least restrictive possible, so that the people feel free to live according to their own personal ethics, values, religion, etc.

Society generally accepts infringement of personal freedom (in the form of a law or social rule) when it prevents a harm. So, it's important to carefully identify the harm and what causes it because there is a loss of freedom. People resent losing freedom. I don't know that anyone has shown that the objectification is actually tied to, say, podium girls.

I feel like we should probably define objectification. Maybe it's viewing someone as an object or something that does not have the full spectrum of abilities, rights, responsibilities as other people. (Let's call those human rights.) I agree-- objectifying a person is bad.

How do you not objectify someone? I suppose you let that person be the master of her own destiny. You would give her all the information and opportunities and the confidence and ability to choose her own path.

Back to podium girls. Podium girls have chosen a path that one assumes is right for them. Their human rights are still intact. When they perform their work, do they cause someone to objectify?

You want to blame podium girls for creating or perpetuating a societal norm of objectifing? I don't buy it. The cause-in-fact is any man who objectifies any woman. Fix the man. Let the women follow their own path.

Boom!

The issue is that fairness comes from individuals. You really will fail if you try to mandate fairness. If some people want to objectify women, you removing the women won't make them better people. The only people really being affected here are the podium girls losing their jobs.

This is my thought. When I look at a podium girl, I don’t think, “hey women are only objects for men’s sexual desires.”

Frankly I look down upon those who think that way.

Thanks, Hammer Down!

To me, there is a big difference between objectifying someone and viewing someone in a sexual way.

If you (not YOU) objectify someone, you dismiss or eliminate a portion of who they are.

Everyone has multiple identities, right? I'm a daughter, sister, mother, wife, lover, triathlete, lawyer, and sexy m.f. (as Prince would say.)

If you objectify me, you view me only as a sexual being whose other identies are not valid. Man, you're a pervy jerk!

If you view me in a sexual light, you're admiring my sexiness while realizing that I am a complex person with many accomplishments. Thank you!

Maybe we should teach our boys and girls to admire sexiness in a respectful way.

Notice how the difference lies within the mind of the observer? It's not the podium girls. It's the attitude of men (and women) looking at them.

Non issue presented as big deal, so dumb people are busy fighting\talking about it, while other real issues are getting addressed behind closed doors.

Lets liberate those poor podium girls because they do not know what they are doing, and are probably forced to do it...modern day sexual slavery...Those girls are probably scared for life, how can they kiss strange man on the cheek? We need to ban this. And legalize marijuana so they can finally relax and forget those dark podium days, after they get stoned they might actually make good decisions and kiss who they want not who they are asked to kiss.

I assume your second paragraph should have been in pink.

“I know that more than one of my colleagues is married to a podium girl or former podium girl,” the German rider Jens Voigt said. “I could name 10 off the top of my head.”
One former hostess, Melanie Simonneau, met the American rider George Hincapie on the Tour podium in 2003. They locked eyes. And that was that.
“I pretty much ended up chasing her throughout the entire Tour de France,” Hincapie said. “I finally got her number and she said, ‘I’m totally not allowed to talk to you.’ ”

My 2+ cents:
Jane is sexy!
A1 is quite possibly a bot (Russian?)
Let the womens decide what's best for them.

But not the first paragraph?

As far as I know nobody has suggested banning anything. So any talk of freedoms or legislation isn't really needed. It seems to me (and I'm happy to be proven wrong) that this is a bit like a company, that used to use an image of a house wife dutifully doing house work until the husband came home, to advertise something. Then the company thought that it looked a bit dated and advertised in a different way. No laws were passed, it is entirely possible actors involved died of poverty but it seems unlikely. Similarly my understanding is that ASO have decided to do things differently. That's pretty much it. Again - happy to be corrected.

I think the word ban is being thrown around as a carry over from the last thread about podium girls... I don't think this type of "modelling" will ever be illegal because they and their employers are not doing anything against the law.

Despite the difference of views - I appreciate that there is a conversation being held about this topic. It is always good to have these conversations cuz otherwise, we get stuck in our own silos and ways of thinking. Despite the small amount of mud-slinging, it has been a very thoughtful conversation from both sides.

But really - is anyone going to stop watching F1 or TdF because there are no more podium girls? People are using the argument that there's no harm having them there when yeah, there actually is - it's part of the publicity machine that re-enforces stereotypes of a historically marginalised group. The need for podium girls is now outdated - I think that society has moved on from objectifying pretty girls and treating them as if they're men's trophies, because that's what these girls are essentially (except the guy can't take her home and put her on the mantelpiece, but I suppose they are standing on his podium).

If you tell your daughters or nieces that this is so over the top PC and tell them that these podium girls don't look subservient at all (kiss the guy on the cheek, stand there and look pretty but don't speak, make sure you show some skin too).. what do you think these girls are going to grow up thinking about themselves and expectations of who they should be and what they're capable of doing (no no... not the person winning the race, you're the wrong gender).

This has nothing to do with sexiness, being prudish or not. It is about perpetuating stereotypes and having strong role models for our girls to look up to.

What's the harm of not having them there? That these girls won't have jobs with great perks and kiss sweaty guys on their cheeks while millions of men ogle them? They can't do what they want to do? Not really strong points as all jobs and industries evolve to stay relevant. Podium girls = irrelevant.

The one and only reason I'd continue watching the broadcast after the race was over was to check out the podium girls. I have zero interest in watching the winning riders spray champagne or get gifts from local dignitaries. So for the broadcasters that's a few extra commercial blocks I won't be exposed to.

What's next, are they going to get rid of the bouquets of flowers because we only use them for their beauty? We going to replace them with a nice shrubbery?

Well said. If the sports are worth watching, that won't change if they drop thisstuff. If you want to look at models, there are other avenues. Let's not normalise it, pretend it's something it's not, and perpetuate these stereotypes.

Who's A1? If it's me, you've managed to get 50% of a 4 digit handle wrong. Well done.
And yes, I'm a bot. With your attention to detail I should have known you'd spot that one.

Your two cents are worth.......... nothing (No offense)

I almost went blind because my eyes rolled so far back into my head reading this.

It was 2+ cents. Great attention to detail A1.
My thoughts and prayers are with your plight.

Normally the level of discussion is a bit higher on ST than this. Regardless of where anyone stands on a particular issue why not engage in the debate rather than just be dismissive?

Why not try and make an argument in support of podium girls? I think I'm the only person who tried that even though I think it's a generally positive move that some sports are being more modern. Are there examples of any women in a presentation role that you do find are unnecessary and look a bit out dated for instance.

You said it was your 2+ cents, I disagreed and gave you the benefit of the doubt on it being a typo. I'm a bot. Couldn't really have missed a detail.

I think we have two conflicting types of feminism here. On one hand, folks want to limit podium girl roles in order to steer society toward a different beauty ideal, which is physically or intellectually stronger and productive of real goods and services, not just "eye candy." I grew up in this version of feminism-- the message I heard was, "women can do anything, so women should be lawyers, doctors, athletes, etc."

The other feminists (including me) have decided that if women can truly do anything, then they can be housewives or podium girls too.

If you want to truly respect your nieces' and daughters' individuality and mental capabilities, expose them to the idea that they can be anything, including lawyers, doctors, athletes, housewives and podium girls. You can discuss the pros and cons of each.

My idea of a strong role model for girls is a woman who exemplifies civility, honesty, personal accountability, confidence, resilience, willingness to work hard and perseverance. I honestly don't care what profession she chooses.

Thank you for this well written post. Best I have seen in quite some time.

I agree that women should have the choice of being a lawyer or house wife or porn star. No judgement there and women should have the choice to do whatever they want. For me, the issue isn't about taking away choices.

You mentioned in one of your posts that it's the men who objectify that needs to be fixed - so putting aside podium girls not being the best role models for girls, what do you think the boys watching TdF or F1 with their dads will grow up thinking when they see a "girl" (not a woman) act like a human trophy? If this happens, I'd hope the father would have a conversation with the kid ...

I'm flattered that my thoughts have had such a strong effect on you - I think my eyes can roll to the top of my head only.

Those poor flowers gown tightly packed in 1 square inch spaces stuck in dirt against their will....,why would anyone kill them for podium presentation, let them produce oxygen.

That conversation between father and son sounds like a fine idea. I think it would be better for that father to routinely demonstrate how to be respectful of all human dignity. Why wait for the TdF? If you speak and act respectfully to all women, regardless of their appearance or profession, you will do your best work to reduce the objectification of women.

I worked at sporting events, like the Rock n' Roll marathon and inaugural Ironman California (2000, it was a full distance. And I raced it!), in San Diego while I was in law school. My job was to interact with the public to promote sales of the product. Later, I worked at a Newport Beach law firm. Now I'm a stay at home mom. A job is a job. They were all pretty fun. Any person who treated me more or less rudely because of my job is really a jerk. So, don't be a jerk.

Hello Emilio and All,

My opinion is to wait and see what happens .....

I think the idea of more opportunities for women to ride in the Tours ... if commercially viable .... is a good goal.



https://www.sbs.com.au/...ed-podium-girl-trend

"Major industry stakeholder and Giro d'Italia organiser RCS Sport won’t scrap podium girls from its races, with cycling director Mauro Vegni describing the current turn as a “trend” that will pass."

Then again ..... maybe Mauro Vegni #Time's Up ................. time will tell.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

We can agree with this for sure. My mom was a stay at home mother because she quit her masters program when I was born. She chose to stay at home and went back to university part time when my sister and I were finishing high school. She just barely beat us to her second university degree by a few years and entered the work force around the time we did. Now she's 75 years old and is still a school teacher with no plans to retire. My sister on the other hand had her head explode with being a full time mom for all of 6 weeks and went racing back to Wall Street as soon as she could get her kids on board with the nanny. My wife decided to quit her highly paying sales job when we became parents and no amount of money of professional glory would convince her to do anything else than CEO of our home. So I have the full spectrum of career right close to home.

So I have no beef with a woman deciding to take the gig of podium girl. As I said above, who would not like to get paid to be the center of attention and hang out with big wigs and get their photo taken. So more power to them of they want that job. I'm just saying that as a society member and a stakeholder in sport in general, I actually don't want that job to exist. But if it exists, I don't have any opposition to someone taking it and enjoying it. My beef is with race organizers, not with the podium girls.

The plight of a capeless hero with a keyboard

Dev, I'm glad you posted on this topic again. I like to read what you write.

Do you really not want the podium girl gig to exist?

I think I've mentioned somewhere that my daughter's 5th Grade teacher really loves diet Pepsi and high heels. That's how she introduces herself to her students at the beginning of the year. Her committment to high heels is extraordinary. She wears them when she does safety patrol and on field trips. The kids have gone on tall ships and to legoland. She goes to legoland in high heels!! Yesterday, she was wearing those stockings that have the seam in the back of the legs. Who wears those? I LOVE her passion for these things, although I don't personally care for any of them.

How boring would the world be without people's quirky interests? (Hello! Triathon?)

+1

I'm on board with you 100%.... I'm a dad to you two young women in college working out who they're going to be. Your last paragraph nails it... love it!


One is probably going to be an anesthesiologist the other an OT... both were competitive cheerleaders among other things but that was their passion. Friends of theirs are doing some dance/cheer things in college and pro teams... so who knows they might do that full time or on the side as well.


Whatever they choose I wish for them as you stated in your last paragraph.

I like the way the line runs up the back of the stockings
I've always liked those kind of high heels too you know, I
No no no no, don't take 'em off, don't take leave 'em on, leave 'em on
Yeah, that's it, a little more to the right, a little more

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Great stuff.


Talking about great stuff, the Giro org just said, basically, screw PCness - we're keeping our girls.

LOL....why was she not my grade 5 teacher ????

See, I am not a prude. I am quite happy to watch fashion shows, supermodels and other assorted channels that are an expression of personal beauty. Just unsure if the TdF podium is the right place.....or for that matter the Grade 5 class room (I would have been happy had she been there in Grade 5, I'm just not sure how much academic focus I'd have had at the time)....and yes, the 52 year old me, can be more focused than the 11 year old version.

I am glad they are dropped

Agreed.

http://www.velonews.com/...-podium-girls_458909



https://www.instagram.com/liencrapoen/

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

It's not like they are in bikinis or something... they are usually well dressed. I dont see the issue.

I feel like this thread has really explored people's thoughts on the podium girls (or mine, anyway. Thanks for reading.), including people's issues with it.

I have heard quite a few people express the idea that they are uncomfortable with sexy women who appear to have limited responsibilities at the awards ceremony for this male cycling event.

Obviously, each of us has our own comfort level for sexiness on display, and we have our own ideas of where and when its appropriate.

I think we should have understanding and compassion for those people, like Dev, who experience an adverse feeling from the podium girls. Dev's not a prude. But he has a different sensibility than us.

Have you ever seen just too much? It makes you feel, "ewwgh." One of favorite secretaries always wore revealing shirts at work. She was the best secretary, but every shirt was a scoop neck and her breasts were proudly put out there for us. I didn't really want to have to see them, but there they were. Forever just sitting there.

Maybe that example won't mean much to you. But I'm sure there's been a time when you wanted to un-see somebody's sexy display.

How do we reconcile our differences?

Yep

I remember thinking 'Don't lean forward! Don't lean forward!'

She leaned forward

Being a gentleman, I'll just stop there

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

It doesn't have anything to do with sexiness - I haven't seen anyone complain about this and these girls are modestly dressed. In any case, we've all had an ear-bashing now and can probably come to the conclusion that we will have to agree to disagree. :)

There's been a few posts which have mentioned how expansive and varied a podium girl's duties are, beyond what is seen at the presentations.

So presumably when the TDF removes the small part of their job on the podium, they will continue to be employed to fulfill those other duties?

So presumably when the TDF removes the small part of their job on the podium, they will continue to be employed to fulfill those other duties? //

So your waitress at a restaurant cannot now use the 2 minutes in her job description to take you order, but can perform all her other duties, you good with that too?? I mean if we are going to make silly arguments, lets get it on!!

I'm not super-impressed by those descriptions. Escorting sponsors around, etc. Sounds like the secretaries in Mad Men, etc. Always nice to have the help double as eye candy. Bygone era.

You've missed my point. I'll be explicit.

If podium girls (or event hostesses or whatever their official title may be) do so much other work throughout each day of the tour and the TDF is doing away with the event hostess positions (as opposed to their appearance on the podium), then all the other roles the women fulfill are either dispensable, irrelevant or capable of being incorporated into the duties of others on the payroll.

The proposition that it is a position requires a multitude of other skills which are extensively utilised away from that brief period on the podium doesn't appear valid.

For a waitress (or waiter), taking an order is of course an indispensable duty in the operation of the restaurant, but so are the rest of the duties they perform when not engaged in doing so. For podium girls, apparently this is not the case.

Precisely this....

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

Precisely this...

http://www.velonews.com/2018/03/news/giro-ditalia-defies-trend-keeps-podium-girls_458909?utm_source=exact_target&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=7223965&utm_content=030818_VeloNewsNL

He says “I am going to go on my road because I think that I’m doing the right thing” and "I don’t care what the other races are doing, I’m just keeping an eye on my races". Not exactly a sociologically-minded perspective, is it? What exactly do you think that article is adding to the discussion, aside from one organizer's opinion? I'd like to refer you back to Vman455's post for a more complete analysis of the situation. Respectfully.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

It adds just as much as your opinion that podium girls are ornaments and outdated. We all have different opinions but your side of the argument tries to claim some misguided sociological perspective.

So, someone who says they only care about their little corner of the world has just as valid a view on the big picture as someone who's specifically interested in and considering, the big picture?

The guy basically said, he's only interested in his race, not society as a whole. So you are claiming a relevance for his position that he seemingly doesn't even claim for himself. Your logic does not stack up. At all.

Well you can't read so what is the point debating with you? "we are losing touch as a society, but this is not the problem,” he said.

^^^What snail said.

It seems to me that Calamity keeps arguing against a point that no-one is making and is missing the real objection.

I have re-stated my objection more than once in this thread because the point is being consistently missed by many. I think it's fair to say that most of those who want rid of the podium girls have a similar view to myself and it has nothing to do with whether or not the podium girls themselves like their job, gain from their job, have other roles, or feel exploited. Those are routine issues and no more or less important than for any other employee.

The provision of "eye-candy" appears to endorse the legitimacy of viewing women as objects. Whether you agree that endorsement exists or not, surely you must realise how this will be understood by society as a whole and how it reflects and is re-absorbed by society as a whole. I think Calamity argued earlier that if men were objectifying women that was their problem and it wasn't the women's responsibility to address it. That's a massive and inaccurate over-simplification. The people reflect the culture. If we plaster idealised female images all over the place, it contributes to society thinking that's the ideal woman. Make her mute and subservient and that's what society will subconciously tend to believe is normal or acceptable. Obviously there are competing images and ideals. It's not black and white, but it's hard to see how these displays of objectified women are not contributing to the wrong side of the equation (at least if you believe as I do that women deserve the same respect as men).

That's why I don't want podium girls. So Calamity, please don't imagine it has anything to do with sexual insecurity or comfort. That's utterly irrelevant for me, and probably everyone else making a similar point. You're just fooling yourself if you've decided that's the issue. It's really about awareness of the bigger picture. It's about realising how people's brains, and culture itself, works. It's not the way Calamity has suggested. That's a pretend version of reality to be used in action films and children's stories. You say men need to have conversations with their sons and teach them to respect women. You think that's the solution do you? Does that completely negate the influences of the society they grow up in? You're being willfully ignorant in my opinion.

I'll do my very best to teach my son decency, awareness, consideration, responsibility, integrity and compassion. A big part of this will be encouraging him to see what's really there, not just what he wants to see. Having girls acting like objects (i.e. models) undermines the truth. It does so on purpose. Pretend otherwise if you wish, but I believe that's dishonest. Now, I can point out that the existence of those women is in conflict with what I teach him, and I'm sure he'll understand that. But how can I teach him the things I list above and a simultaneously approve of women posed as eye-candy? No. I do not approve. It is in conflict with what most people say they believe in - respect and equality regardless of sex or ethnicity.

Seems to me the people pushing to ban things like this are the vocal minority, nobody I know in real life takes issue with stuff like this.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What Jackets said

Are people pushing to ban?

I saw your extremely rather extremely extensive post on 0 yaw much like your last here. You are a bot aren't you??? Seems bots can't read and don't understand a majority of society can have an alternative opinion do they?

Yet again arguing with an imaginary opponent.
No one is pushing for a ban. Name one person who has suggested such a thing!

What's "real life"?
How do you know they don't take issue? Because they haven't told you?
Do they endorse it or have they just not thought about it?
How wide and diverse is your circle of "real life" acquaintances? Echo chambers are plentiful!

I'm starting to wonder about my reading comprehension because I don't understand this post. But I don't think it's me.

What's wrong with my post about yaw?

Do bots know much about aerodynamics?

The majority of society can and do have any opinion they like. Sometimes mine is similar, sometimes it's not.

Why do you suggest I "don't understand a majority of society can have an alternative opinion"?
Have I said this?

The next thing you know French Presidents will be giving up their mistresses.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Not that I've seen.

I think she prefers Jane, but I could be wrong

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Oop, no offense intended.
I honestly was just careless in abbreviating the name, not trying to make a slight.

Let me know CalamityJane88 and I'll use the whole handle or the bit you prefer in future posts.

Similarly here are people not talking about banning models at car shows.

Should manufacturers still be using models to sell cars?

Can't view that video right now but my opinion on models in that arena would be almost identical to the topic at hand. i.e. If they are presented as a visual adornment, I think it's harmful.

... And what about ...???

https://www.sbnation.com/...s-large-as-last-year

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

If a bot doesn't identify as a bot, is it still a bot?

Giro slowly becomes my fav company, standing their ground. I'm getting Vanquish helmet for sure.

Podium girls, link with gun industry nonsense. All this is to create precedence and destroy status quo for absolutely no reason, or if there is any reason it is political propaganda that stinks with proletariat from mile away...

Was this parody? Because if so; spot on.

So nice restaurants have to quit using the most attractive women for hostesses? No young, attractive women driving the beverage carts on golf courses? No attractive women as local news reporters? No cheerleaders at any men's (or boys) sports? Certainly, no bikini barristas or Hooters girls? I do not condone treating women as objects, but I don't see anything wrong with the fact that a millenia of evolution is expressing itself via employment based on women's attractiveness to men. All the PC hectoring in the world isn't going to change that. Here's some advice - from a women - to millenials seeking any job:

"If you're a twentysomething woman who is looking for a job, it really helps if you're attractive. If you're not, or you pretend it doesn't matter what you look like, or you attempt to hide the fact that you're pretty in some weird way out of feminist-induced anxiety over your sexuality, it's going to make things that much harder for you. This is just a fact."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/susannahbreslin/2011/11/15/how-to-get-a-job-if-youre-a-twentysomething-woman/2/#31ce8a44ad6b

But they're doing jobs getting work done.

If they all get up and walk, then people would take notice. Work would not get done.

Podium girls get up and walk....nothing really changes except some older men shed maybe a silent tear and rant about "PC" for a minute. Then life moves on.

Hey we'll see the open market in play. There's still podium girls at the Giro (bless the Italians). If the podium girls are that great an economic value, we'll see the Giro increase in value vs. the TdF. Let the markets decide. Nothing "PC" about that, right?

I'm all for free markets, however, podium girls are no more central to the cycling business than an attractive hostess is to a restaurant. Either will succeed on the merits of the primary product. I.e., the outstanding chef - and perhaps female - chef - matters more than the hostess. Regardless, attractive women are a selling point in many industries and that stems from something far more fundamental than simply culture.

Misguided? My opinion is solidly backed by published literature from the last 50 years. We can have a pubmed competition if you like.
Granted, I'm a total libtard, but I'm not even trying to take some obsequious moral high ground here: objectification is both individually and socially damaging. This is hardly debatable. The most important point is that it's irrelevant whether the individual participant is a beneficiary or not. Similar analogies are policies against allowing people to work for $1.20 per hour. It would help SOME workers and a lot of business owners, but it would be catastrophic for the bulk of society. It's also why we don't pay ransom demands. It would help the individuals in the immediate predicament, but it would set a terrible precedent and place far more people at risk.
Also, you don't think that maybe the race coordinator has a slight bias towards including attractive women in his ceremonies? It's customary, sexy and makes a good show. Of course he's going to push back on that. I probably would too.
Again, respectfully.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

on TV Jack Bauer does not pay ransom...., and on CNN news we do not talk with terrorists, absolutely we do not (sarcasm)... but in real world ransom is paid all the time and we do talk with terrorists all the time, we even make business with them...(not sarcasm)
You are watching too much TV :)

Someone takes your kid and says; we need 1000$ (assuming you have 1000$) by midnight or your kid is dead.

I want to see you saying: ok F@#$ it kill him, I do not want my neighbors and fellow citizens kids be in the same situation as me, I will end this kidnapping business...

*We* as a collective national and international policy. We don't pay ransom demands. But would I pay ransom? Of course I would. Everyone would. But that is exactly my point: the immediate individuals are benefiting from paying; society as a whole is placed at greater risk. It's consistent with the relation between women being compensated for objectification and the effect that has on women as a whole.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

I call BS. A podium girl could walk away with no replacement and there'd be essentially zero disruption to an event. Hostess walks with no replacement, a whole bunch of things immediately start falling apart. A podium girl is eye candy. A hot hostess is eye candy who works her ass off.

I'm genuinely interested to see how they do a cycling podium ceremony without someone helping the winner on with a jersey and just generally directing the flow of the whole thing. I guess we'll see. I always think the whole thing looked dated and not sorry it's going for TdF but they women didn't just stand there and look pretty. If I was in charge I'd of had one person in charge of all the jersey presentations (not 2 different women for each jersey) and had a handshake rather than a kiss.

Did you notice that I said "attractive hostess"? I wasn't saying the restaurant didn't need a hostess; only that she needn't be attractive. Still, the main point stands. Most people frequent restaurants (or quit) over the quality of the food, the price, and the general atmosphere, not because they didn't find the hostess appealing. Anyway, it's FRIDAY...let's hammer some training this weekend!!!!!

Mein Kampf was solidly backed published literature for a time and I would call misguided so your point being? It is all just opinion. You see men seeing these women as sex objects maybe just because you do and I see an attractive woman that glamorises an awards function just as I would hope they have attractive men glamorising the womens race based purely on tradition that it be the opposite gender present the prize. Do traditions no longer hold a place in society because people like you chooses to find some kind of reason to find offence in it.

I'll add it now with this whole argument. I think it was the golden globes all the actresses dressed more conservatively in black dresses and ran the whole we are not sexual objects, we deserve respect blah blah as every woman in life should but then at the Oscars dressed as one can only describe as sexual objects because that is what sells and makes headlines that even had 40+ year old girls I went to school with commenting on it on social media telling them to smarten up. Do people not see the hypocrisy in who is leading your cause and they are the ones manipulating as they choose when suits.

There are a select few people in society will choose to see things in the wrong light and act on them. We can no longer have cigarette adds because people will smoke, alcohol because people will drink, gambling because people will gamble. Can we not have a sports car sponsoring a sporting event because people will see that as a race car and want to drive it fast crashing and killing people? Exact same argument. Why aren't all video games involving killing people or racing cars outlawed because some people will see them in a certain light and act out on them.

When will people see that we can't sensor everything in society from the minority that may view them in the wrong light as our free thinking and freedoms in life slowly get eroded.

Anyone is free to comment but that's about the end of my argument based purely on my opinion of society...

Sunday wrote:

If a bot doesn't identify as a bot, is it still a bot?

Did you see this one? I lost it laughing...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Who_is_IntenseOne%3F_P6580059/?forum_view=forum_view_collapsed&;page=unread#unread