You say you already talked to the Dad yet iit gets back to the parents it will cause problems for you. If it were my kid, I wouldn't care if it causes problems. I would talk to the parents and the school. Any toys this kid breaks I would have a receipt in hand for his parents to pay for. If they dont off to small claims court. Im really surprised more parents havent complained to the school or his parents/

school public or private?

Talk to the teacher. Explain what's going on and any action you will take if this doesn't get fixed. This is their domain.

private.

Cheap toys. Not worth the time to get them paid for, but it's the visual act of seeing his toys broken intentionally that hurts my kid's feelings.

Our school has a counselor for these kinds of situations. They've kicked out at least 2 kids over the past couple years for their behavior. Start there or with the teacher, if nothing gets resolved I'd talk to the principal and say they either fix this or you're out.

either way this is an issue for the school not for you and or the dad. It just so happens that your kid is currently the target. The issue is with Jimmy. If it wasn't your kid it would be some other kid.

You need to remove the violence from the equation on your end. Both your kid and you (relative to the dad). You need to get the teacher and the admin involved. You need to not be there when they deal with this with the dad.

They have a responsibility do provide a safe classroom. They also have a responsibility to get Jimmy to change his ways. If they cant this is the wrong environment for Jimmy.

I get it is your kid. But you need to remove yourself from the emotional as quickly as possible and turn this into a school thing. You need to sit down with teacher and admin. explain what is going on from your perspective and request/demand they take steps to provide a safe classroom for your kid. They should need to document and be accountable to you for what these steps and timelines are.

Jimmy is not the first kid they have had to deal with like this and wont be the last. Nor is Jimmy's father. This is what they do. It's what they need to do. You need to go to them, be calm and rational and lay out what's going on.

I ask about public/private because of the size of the class you describe. I get private may be a more difficult situation (ie. we all go to church together, Jimmys dad is important blah blah blah).

Either way they should still be responsible for stopping this. If you don't point it out to them somebody else will need to after Jimmy moves on to the next kid.

Edit: you've now said private. Assume this means you pay to have him there. All the more reason for him to be safe. And if private then they don't have to accept or continue to accept everyone.....including Jimmy.

My limited experience is that private makes it easier to deal with. They have more levers at their disposal. Such a small class though makes me wonder if they are hurting for students or is it small because its a Pre-K class??

I'd vote bringing it to the school. The whole spitting thing really irks me. That should absolutely not be tolerated and I would think would be grounds for kicking the kid out of school for a few days. That would get the kid and parents more in check.

If there are only 8 kids in the grade and you mention/threaten pulling your kid they will act. That is at least 1/8th of the grades revenue (I guarantee other parents are thinking about it as well). If they kick out Jimmy, at most 1/8th of the revenue is gone, unless Jimmy's dad donates extra.

Edit to add: The reason why I bring up money, is because that is why the school will act. That small of a school, unless they have some crazy endowment, every dollar counts.

both. jimmy was "recruited" b/c the school is hurting for numbers and it's also small b/c it's a small town.

the guy that i'm probably the most pissed with is the one that recruited jimmy and his parents b/c they can pay the tuition. that guy's child is in a different class, so how would he like it if i recruited a tasmanian devil to call the shots in his child's class.

thanks. All my experience is public. It's different because the mind set is different. Services level requirements are different. Make up of student body is different out of necessity.

My experience is public over multiple years and issues (I have a kid on high end of autistic spectrum that both makes him and easy target and makes him his own worst enemy at times) is that one needs to very quickly, very calmly and in a very detailed manner place in hands of the school. I typically get teacher and admin involved right away, making sure teacher understands I'm sure they can handle it but I want them to have full resources available and full communication available.

I have never had an issue with another parent. The issue at hand here, kids are pretty young so it doesn't sound like you can deal directly with kid only. But when kid and parent are aware that all of admin is aware and there to change/help the situation it should go fine. If it doesn't that's still really an issue between the school and the other parent.

I'd tell my son to look Bully in the eyes and say, "If you're mean to me ONE MORE TIME, I will tell the teacher." (Use these exact words here.) Then your son has to follow through. Bully might try to weasle out of it, "I didn't mean to...", but your son needs to follow through. That's all your son has to do.

You have more work to do b/c your job is to be your son's protector.

You need to send an email to your son's teacher describing the problem. Cc the school principal, assist principal and the secretary. (Always include the secretary b/c those ladies make the world go 'round.) Use strong, descriptive words. If your son cries about the bullying, tell them. If he has physical injuries, tell them about it. If your son doesn't want to go to school, tell them about it. You can say that the school or classroom is a hostile learning environment. That has a nice, scary, legal-sounding ring to it. If you child isn't safe or doesn't feel safe at school, how can he learn? Be polite and very concerned.

I don't think you need to communicate with Bully's parents. The school is responsible for keeping your child safe. The school can talk to Bully's parents.

You should be around before and after school. Minimize the time your son is around Bully without you or a responsible adult. Keep an eye on Bully. If you ever see Bully in action (even being mean to someone else's kid), look him in the eyes and get really mean. Tell him to stop. Threaten to tell the teacher, principal, parents and police.

I feel like my kids need to know that I will protect them and that we can enlist the support of other responsible adults. If my kids tell me about a problem, we'll solve it together.

Talk with your son about all the things he learns at school: patience while he waits in line for lunch or the bathroom, putting up with all the accidental pushing and bumping that goes on, listening to naughty talk and seeing naughty behavior, choosing whether or not to also talk naughty and do naughty things. He is learning way more than just math and reading. He's learning how deal with bullies. There are bullies everywhere. Why the bully is a bully is not your son's problem. Don't waste your son's mental energy thinking about the Bully's jealousy. The Bully's behavior is simply unacceptable. Period.

One final note, if you or wife can volunteer at the school, do it. You want the school teachers and staff to know and like you.

Further complicating the issues:
Because it's a small town, Jimmy will likely be in whatever school we are in. Jimmy's parents come from money so they are entitled and Jimmy's mom says, "oh, I was a little tomboy and i always rough, so Jimmy just takes after me."

I'm 5'9'' (as an adult) so I've had to deal with bullies b/c I was short/small/thin when i was in school and my birthday is in july. One key difference here between me and my kid is that I was into all contact sports and took pride in being tough so that getting hit fueled my desire to be better than the kids who bullied me.

Jimmy isn't the last kid that we'll meet who is aggressive, so i think that I need to help my kid formulate a plan to deal with this little Jimmy and the Jimmy that we haven't met. Even if it takes several years. One thing that worries me is that I've seen kids do drastic things to stop bullies... such as the time when my BFF's little brother tied wire across the road to stop someone from using his go-kart (back in the 80's).

I'm on board with talking to the teacher and school admin, but I think that we also have to have an internal plan to deal with the bully...

My first thought was it was a private school since you only have 8 kids in the room. You confirmed...
1. School wants to keep all kids, so tell them each time he does something. Keep a running journal. Email teacher and vp and principal.
2. Eventually they will lose 1 of you. You either leave and they lose your $, or he gets kicked out.
3. Ask principal what it takes to be dismissed.
4. Ask for a bullying and harassment form. It should exist. Fill one out/request one EVERY time he does something.
4. Ask for copies of the investigation notes for each situation. They are your right to have.
5. Schedule a conference with teacher and principal. Express your concern, disgust etc. tactfully at first. If you need to up the ante, do so at another meeting. Keep the first one calm, clear and that you expect action.
6. Speak to the kids dad. Doesn't matter if he is a buddy. Your kid is priority #1.

Hope this helps

^^^ this seems very insightful, thx!

Where is the teacher while all this is occurring?

A class of 8 and all this is happening with no adult observing the behavior?

I have 3 boys in private school with 20 kids in each class with 2 teachers and activity that you are describing would be seen and stopped.

One of two things is occurring:

Your boy is exaggerating what is happening at school?

Teacher is incompetent and is allowing this behavior. If this is the case find another school.

read Calvin and Hobbes to your kid - the strips with Moe.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

This. Do not accept this behavior. Do not teach your child to accept it. Take action. You are paying the school and they need to manage/correct the situation.

I had 3 more ideas while I ran my 30 (for 100/100):
1. Tell your son you plan to talk to his teacher. Ask him if there's anything else you need to know. Be silent while you wait for an answer. If he's making a big deal about something insignificant, he'll fess up. But I bet his complaints are legit. Also, you want him to know about your plan of action so that he trusts you to help him in the way he wants to be helped. If he says, "don't talk to my teacher," give your son a few days to try a different solution. If you jump the gun, he might not tell you about his troubles in the future. That would be the worst!!

2. If you have other kids, include them in your discussions. I enlisted the help of my 6th grader when my 3rd grader was being pushed around at school. I asked my 6th grader, "what do you do when someone is mean at recess?" He told us he uses the "ONE MORE TIME" method. My 5th grader says she just runs away. It was a great conversation because 3rd grader wasn't alone anymore with his problem.

3. The email to the school politely telling about a serious problem is good so the school can investigate, if they want. You and they have a paper trail that can be handy down the road. At the end of your email, you can tell the school what you want. Meeting asap? Meeting in 1 month? Telephone call? If you schedule a meeting, you can use the email as an outline for it. Its stressful to meet a teacher or principal, and an organized email/outline can help you be a good advocate for your son.

Finally, aren't you glad your son is bullied, rather than bullying? What a great time to talk about being kind and standing up for others! Your son will be more aware of his own actions and their effect on other people. Good luck.

+1
Calvin & Hobbes!

Great advice. I would also suggest you enroll your kid in a beginner self-defense class. Maybe you can take it with him. Start to build up his self-esteem and prepare him to defend himself just in case he runs into more bullies. If you don't do something soon your kid is going to suffer more. It's your job to protect your kid(s). Welcome to adulthood.

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

Sounds like Jimmy needs a kick in the balls.

I have a 5 year old also and he's the sweetest kid (I know, they are all the best when they are your own but I'm telling you, he is just so easy going and friendly to everyone), we also had a little grade school terror who I will now say "was" giving him trouble at school. So I understand what you're going through. There have been many nights of frustrated conversation watching my kid trying to figure out why something like this would happen, why somebody would be mean for no reason, and me telling my wife I just want to level this little shit's dad who seems like a real POS. My son is tall like me, and also skinny as a rail like me (he can't wait to race triathlon with me this year)

We mentioned the situation to his teacher and the latchkey teachers, first and foremost. The school needed to be aware, but also needed to be aware that WE were aware this was happening under their watch.

Regarding my son, we also talked about reasons why other kids may be mean or act out. But in dealing with the problem directly, we went over roughly the following:

1. Anytime X says something to you that you do not like, you ask him to stop, first and foremost. Tell him why you want him to stop, and why you don't like what he is saying or doing. While some kids are just little jerks, I am also aware we are dealing with 5 year olds, maybe this kid doesn't realize himself the feelings he is inflicting on others (glass half full).

2. If he doesn't stop, you tell your teacher. We reviewed that telling a teacher is to help him with a real problem where he feels taken advantage or threatened, not a means to get another kid in trouble purposely, the difference between asking your teacher for help, and tattling because you are upset with the outcome of a situation.

Here's where it gets dicey and I question myself, but I feel confident in where I went. Mind I am a lover, not a fighter and will attempt to talk and defuse my way out of any situation, I have my entire life. But when you are stuck and threatened, and there is nothing left to say and you have exhausted all options, you take the advantage before you're taken advantage of. So..

3. If you ever feel threatened and you can't get away from this kid, he has you in a corner or a position that you can't escape from, I want you to put your hands forward and push him back as hard as you can, then get to your teacher and let her know the whole situation from the start all the way up to why you had to push him.

4. If he ever lays his hands on you and you can't get away, you ball up your fist and you sock him right smack center in the nose (watery eyes), then you immediately get out of there tell your teacher everything.

We also discussed that if things ever become physical, he will have to defend his reasoning for it and it won't be given a pass in most situations IE prepare to also be in trouble, with the school and if it was not justified, with me and mom. And in no way should violence ever be the go to, it's the absolute last resort and only used when his own safety is in jeopardy.

This was a few months ago, the kid is still around but the problem seems to have been solved. In fact I hear the other kid saying hi or bye to my son once in a while when I pick him up from latchkey. So maybe something clicked for this kid. I hope so.


This long winded reply, just wanted to share you're not alone in the situation and your advice and actions with your son are about spot on with mine. Wish you luck.

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Regards,
J. Smith

I have strong feelings on bullying. I was small growing up, and didn't catch up to the other boys until the end of HS. I had a hard time with bullies, pretty much until my senior year. Wasn't just about size, it was also about balls.

I'll be the odd person out in this discussion. There's only one "real" solution. Violence. The bully needs to get his ass kicked, or at least, hurt. That's the only thing that is going to change his behavior. He has to learn that pushing around other kids gets you a bloody nose.

I had a buddy growing up that was small like me. Except he was a tough little kid whereas I was a wuss. When he got cornered by a bully he turned into a wolverine. I turned into a punching bag, cried, and felt sorry for myself. The wolverine reaction was a helova lot more effective then my solution.

The wolverine didn't win those fights, but he got a few licks in, and that's all it took to encourage the bully to look elsewhere for more easy pickings.

Ok, your kid is a lot smaller then the bully and is scared of him. No one ever sat me down, as a little kid, and told me...."you have to hurt the bully. Figure out how. Deliver a blindsided body slam, smash him over the back of his head with your book bag, get a couple buddies that are also picked on by him and dogpile him. Kick the hell out of him once he's down."

I'm not quite sure what I was so afraid of, as a little kid. The idea of being in a big fight scared the crap out of me. It would be years later that I realized, "fights don't really hurt. You're pissed off and full of adrenaline. When he hits you, you'll practically not even notice you'll be so pissed off".

Ok, my dad never told me the above, but in my generation dad's were often not the talkative type. You'd think I'd have figured that stuff out on my own. I'm kinda bewildered that it took me so long. I have a case of life-long hates on a couple of my arch-enemy bullies that hasn't weakened an iota in >40yrs.

Sure, your kid's is likely to get his ass beat in this. But that's already happening and what I'm describing could long be remembered as the greatest day of his life. Those times in HS where I finally stood up to a bully, it wasn't a fight really, I just stood my ground clearly ready to go at it right there, will always be remembered as glorious victories over my own terror.

There's sure to be consequences with the school if your son fights back. But you warned the school that the situation was happening. The only reason your son had no alternative but to fight back, is that the school failed to curb the bully.

Get your son into rough and tumble sports as soon as you can. Football, wrestling, martial arts for kids, that kind of thing. Those are huge confidence builders. They teach a little kid that getting whacked is no big deal. Bullies use fear to win. Those kinds of skills and experiences remove the fear.

We have 3 boys, early teens. Like me they'll get their growth late. I tried hard to teach them the lessons that my father did not. The boys have an advantage in that there's 3 of them. The generally don't treat each other very well, but in the rare time that one of them got knocked on their ass at recess, two brothers rocketed across the school grounds and slammed into bully.

My irritation over being a punching bag wuss as a little kid pretty much charted my whole life after HS. So "really strong feelings" about bullying is a bit of an understatement.

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Books @ Amazon
"If only he had used his genius for niceness, instead of Evil." M. Smart

25 posts to get here. Damn.

Put your kid in jiu jitsu, or wrestling if you’re in the Midwest. Talk to him, let him know that you have his back if he needs to get physical.

Make the consequences for messing with your kid severe and he won’t get messed with.

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

In general I'm not opposed to this but the kid is 5. This is too young and likely wouldn't work anyway. I have a 6 year old and couldn't imagine trying to have this conversation with him to where he understood when its ok and not ok to punch a kid.

My 5 year old is in kindergarten.

“Hey little buddy- you should always be good to other kids. But if somebody ever hits you, you tell them to stop. If they do it again, you can hit back until they go away. You won’t be in trouble with me.” He’s generally a nice kid, and funny, but doesn’t take any shit. Being the youngest may have something to do with that.

My 3rd grader understands that he can defend himself and I have his back. He also understands that if he were the aggressor/bully he’d be in deep shit. He’s a friendly kid and not a dick to others. He’s become very physical as a soccer defender, and has no problem taking a kid down, mounting, and throwing an arm bar in class.

My 9th grade daughter knew this and knocked a kid a year or two younger than her on his ass when he messed with her little brother on the playground a few years ago. I told her I was proud of her for looking out for her brother.

Defend yourself, defend your family. Anybody messes with your siblings and you all pile in. Mom and Dad have your back.

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

I have a kindergartner and a 3rd grader as well. Both boys. The 6 year old would rationalize this allowance of hitting into doing it whenever he felt justified. He's also the biggest in his class by a mile and if some kid hit him he would throttle the kid. This might be from him having an older brother, nevertheless, I would pity a classmate that attempted to hit him. Fortunately he was just awarded a prize for playing with everyone being one of the nicest kids in the class.

My 3rd grader. I have no problem with the conversation and having him to this.

Yeah but in jiu jitsu or wrestling you're not punching. If a kid learned BJJ or wrestling it allows him to get away or harm the bully without using punches. It's very unlikely your 5 year old is going to run around doing takedowns on everyone.

My 5 year old is fortunately not being bullied, but I went ahead and enrolled him into a BJJ class to give him options should he start getting bullied. I also would rather start him early, because he's not going to instantly turn into Royce Gracie after the first class. It's going to take a while before it translates.

Bullying takes many forms. Most of the forms the OP is discussing are not physical in a manner that these things would "defend". In fact if they were implemented they would be seen as offensive

//One final note, if you or wife can volunteer at the school, do it. You want the school teachers and staff to know and like you.//

This is excellent advice and I highly recommend it. My kids are past this point in life (thankfully) but we've dealt with various issues throughout the years with school kids, teachers, etc. When my eldest was in kindergarten, she was at a school and she repeated to us some language and described some behavior of a boy in her class that was highly inappropriate. My wife volunteered two days later to see what was going on and we pulled our kid out of that school the next day and found an awesome place for her to attend elementary.

Back when my daughter was in 8th grade she was bullied by a boy (small kid who needed to feel bigger). She came home informing me that he was saying rude nasty things to her. I went through the motions of asking whether or not any teacher had heard him. She replied, "No."

I told her that when she was certain no one else was present, to tell him that if he continued to bother her, she would stuff his tiny ass into his locker. Then follow with... "When we get to HS next year, you'll spend forever being the little boy who got stuffed into a locker by a girl."

She came home the next day and just winked at me. I never heard another word about him.