It's only a matter of time. It's funny to see a Madone with disc brakes after the Trek video on disc brakes.

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So much for Trek saying they wouldn't go disc *sigh*

I guess Trek is trying to reduce their SKU count for rims too :/

This thread will turn anti-disc brake in a couple hours.

I am laughing quite a bit at this photo.

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Why so long? I mean, I can see how discs make sense from a parts commonality perspective: same hoses, go from three hubs to two (could have been one if they went with asymmetrical 142 rears like what Cannondale did with the Scalpel... but 148 is still a good standard), one one type of rim instead of two... that all adds up. Plus, if you want to sell carbon clinchers and you're worried about product failure/liability, disc is really the way to go. CCs with disc brakes can be made with cheaper resin with the nice side effect of being more impact resistant.

I'm not saying I agree with disc brakes (TomA really nails it with his "bigger rotor" analogy) but I understand why manufacturers are moving that direction.

I agree with Tom's analogy but it's one of those things where each system has pros and cons.

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I would agree with Tom's analogy, except disk brake pads are able to be made from different material than rim brake pads because the braking surface is no longer structural. Completely changes the material interactions involved. Therefore the analogy is flawed.

Saw that and posted it last week on a Canyon thread here. I for one am looking forward to the Madone w/ disc since it's on my list for a new bike (looking at the Canyon Ultimate and Cervelo R5D as well). The disc "weight penalty" is a non factor for some of us old school kids that still refuse to use carbon clinchers and still are using alloy rims for their MUCH better braking (I'm using Shimano C24's, C35 & Sram S60's). Disc would allow me to move to a lighter full carbon rim so the added weight of disc end up a wash for me at least.....and I get still better braking to boot.

I think you're confusing cause and effect. Disc rotor and pad materials NEED to be different because they're using a significantly smaller diameter braking surface, and therefore REQUIRE harder materials and higher clamping forces to get the same braking torques. This is also why pad to disc clearances need to be so tight (i.e. requires high leverage/low travel actuation).

One can easily make rims out of steel and run aircraft sintered brake pads...in fact, an MIT professor at one time developed a self-adjusting rim brake using just that same technology for use on the common steel rims used on most consumer bikes of the time ('70s). The prototypes worked well and offered significantly better braking in the wet as compared to the typical leather-based pads used on steel rims at the time. However, that option didn't take hold because at the same time inexpensive aluminum rims became available and the industry realized that aluminum rims coupled with elastomeric pads made for a better overall system (lighter, cheaper, AND better braking).

The analogy does hold...if you know your history and understand better the engineering ;-)

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One thing that gets missed in the disc brake discussion, IMO, is the replaceability of rotors. I've had to throw away wheels because the braking surface finally wore down to the point that it was too thin and kept flaking off metal into the brake pads. Replaceable rotors make this a non-issue.

How long did that happen that you wore down a braking surface on a wheel? 5+ years?

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thats because for 99.99999% that will never be an issue.. and what you have spent on replaceable rotors will be more then what those aluminum rims cost anyways.

I agree.

The pursuit of lighter and lighter rims means that brake tracks have become significantly thinner over the years. You only need to look at a cross-section profile of some rims to see how little material there actually is there and somewhat ironically, the more you spend on a wheelset, the less time it's likely to last.

I've worn through plenty of rims on my road bike and it was certainly a consideration when I switched to discs.

You do know that a replacement rotor costs like $90, right? If you're riding crappy $90 wheels, then I'd agree it's a non-issue.

Hey, getting a bit off track eh!?!?

Has anyone actually ridden a Madone and did NOT like it? I'd like to hear why.

If you're riding wheels with rims costing more than $90 in conditions that cause you to wear them out...you might want to reconsider your equipment choices ;-)

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$90 rotors??? I just bought a highly rated pair for my training wheels for $18. Please use real facts not fake facts when trying to make your point.

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2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

I'm happy for you that you were able to find cheaper rotors. Here are the rotors I was referring to - which are direct replacements for the rotors on my new bike.

https://www.coloradocyclist.com/...t900-road-disc-rotor

Life's too short to ride crappy wheels. ;-)

Aw, screw that noise, get them for $70 here.

https://www.westernbikeworks.com/...900-disc-brake-rotor

My only minor critique of the Madone is that I wish the H1 geometry was standard. Otherwise it’s an absolutely phenomenal bike. I don’t own a Madone but I seem to test ride one about every six months at my LBS. Every time it’s because I think I can some how hack it into a tri bike. Alas, too short and too much stack for me :(

Finishing a decent rotor completely takes almost 2-3 years(it is the case of mtb). No need to worry about that.

What about the case of carbon rim? Like enves or zipps. Aren't these high grade rims certainly more expensive than rotors? I think disc option is more cost efficient.

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90 bucks rotor? Hahaha.

There are thousands of under-10$-rotors out there. 90$ rotor? Do you mean Dura ace specific rotor packed with "ice tech"? It is meaningless fraud :(

Even mtb riders who exploit there rotor on steep mountains are fine with cheap ashima rotors (8$)

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I liked it for the quick test ride I took. What I didn't like was the H1 was a more expensive option and the price point overall for Trek is too high in my mind. $7,500 for a Madone that's not their highest spec'd carbon, Ultegra Di2, and a compact crank is way too high for me.

I ended up getting a Aeroad 8.0 with Ultegra 8000 and a SRAM eTap upgrade kit. Can put the 8000 on a crit bike and rock eTap on the Aeroad for $2,500 less then the Madone.

I don't like that so much of that bike is difficult to work on. I got an S5 instead, which is very easy to maintain.

Here they are for $15 less with free shipping, maybe that helps you a bit.

http://www.jensonusa.com/Shimano-Dura-Ace-SM-RT900-Rotor/

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2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

Somehow, the point has been completely lost on you.

No it hasn't, I was trying to be helpful instead of making a point.

I would never buy those rotors for a training wheel as they are way too expensive. I was about to say that you can buy any rotor for a training wheel, but I figured that might start an argument so I just tried to support you in what you felt was right rather than argue.

For brake rotors for my training wheels, they were $14 on Amazon. They would work just as well as the rotors you are using, but you may not agree about using different rotors.

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2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

your original point was weird.

Wheels laced with ~$90 rims aren't necessarily "crappy"...also, you know that rims are fairly easily replaceable, right?

Here's the thing...if you live in a place and ride in conditions that easily wear out rims, knock yourself out with your disc brakes on your road bike. But, be aware that you're in an extreme minority. Also, be aware that's no argument for the appropriateness of them on a high-end road racing bike either.

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You think that not wanting to throw away an expensive wheelset just because the braking surface is worn out is weird?

No: justifying disc brakes by saying that you've worn through quite a few rims' braking surface. That is exceedingly rare and takes a lot of time riding in either bad conditions or just an exceptional amount of miles. I get wanting disc brakes, that's fine. But if you truly have worn through plenty of rims' braking surface then you represent a very small portion of the bike purchasing population.

Nowhere did I say that this was *the* reason to justify selecting disc brakes... simply that this was a factor that hasn't (to my knowledge) been discussed a whole lot. I haven't thrown away a lot of wheel sets, but I have had to retire a couple of wheel sets for this reason. This wouldn't play into my decision-making for a tri bike at all, but for my every day training road bike... sure, it's one of many factors to consider.

Ok... I'll answer your original question then. In the context of an aero road racing bike (which this thread is supposed to be about)...or a TT/Tri bike, for that matter...it hasn't been discussed much because it's literally a non-factor.

That's why bringing it up in this context is a bit odd.

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That's funny coming from the guy who feels the need to chime in with his views of disc brakes in every thread, no matter how tangential it is to the discussion.

There is no "perfect" blanket statement of why or why not disc - everyone's reason is going to be different and valid (at least for them). One of my reasons is for better braking with NO weight penalty.......but disc are heavier, right. Sure for the masses, but not for "me". I refuse to use full carbon wheels due to the poor braking, so I am still using heavier alloy/carbon wheels. Switching to disc, although heavier will allow me to use full carbon (and lighter) wheels...so for my situation....switching to disc offers NO weight penalty because I can now use lighter wheels. To each its own!

Not *that* rare. I typically wear out brake tracks in 40-50K miles, so I've tossed out something like 3-4 sets of wheels over the past ~15 years (when I started riding a lot). But I don't mind because usually by the time the track has worn out there's some cool new wheelset I want that's out and I'm like "Oh darn, I have to buy new wheels. Oh no, not that."

My next bike of the CX/gravel variety will have disc brakes just so I can participate in these fun arguments having had some first-hand experience with "road" disc.

Do I? Or, is it like what happened in this thread, where I merely responded to someone's misinterpretation of cause and effect on material selection and an analogy I have made in the past? I had no intention of posting in this thread until then...

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Check Trek Instagram! Just got a even cleaner look at the new Trek Madone 9 Disk!

Post the link!

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discs, eh?

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I’m having hard time determining what company made that bike....

TRE

There are new, but make 3 types of bikes. Tri bikes, road bikes and dirt bikes

We all knew it was coming

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Nice. I got a 9.9 RSL this season and I have to say, this might be the best bike I've ever ridden. Its comfortable, handles great, seems fast and looks awesome. I like it more than the S3 or Foil that I've previously been riding but my biggest complaint is the stopping power on the integrated brakes could be better; a disc version obviously resolves that. Mine is built up with etap and building it was a piece of cake, seriously, running the brake cables could only be easier on an externally routed bike. There are lots of pieces and bolts but for day to day use its not any harder to wrench than anything else.

Fingers crossed they stop charging such a premium for the H1 geometry.

....and they already cut him up. 😂😂

I’m surprised they didn’t include front IsoSpeed with the disc version. Bummer :/

I’m looking at a used Madone (and Venge Vias rim brake). I e read the brakes on the Madone were good, and better than those on the Venge. What rims and pads are you using? A new one of either of these bikes with discs is way out of my price range

Good point, I should clarify that they aren’t bad by any stretch, they just aren’t as powerful as the direct mount DA9100 brakes I came from on my Foil. I’m running Aforce AL33s with BXP pads and they’re great, I should probably do a little fine tuning though to tighten things up though. I agree, a new Madone disc frame is far out of my price range, but I think that bike will be great example of an perfect bike.

Also my mechanic complemented our easy the Madone build was (with the factory service manual online) rspecially compared to a Vias. I’ve ridden both and would buy an a Allez Sprint over a Vias any day of the week. I actually own 2 Allez Sprints and think for the money they are the absolute best bike around.

More photos here https://www.bikeradar.com/...-disc-spotted-52387/

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wow, I wish I was good enough to need that. that is pure.

Pictures like that shouldn't be allowed without at least showing the hub area...so the WHOLE story is shown ;-)

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that looks like it's got room for some pretty big tires, nice! my next bike will be a do-it all type of bike and wish they'd leave room for big tires on bikes like this as that's what I'd prefer. A road bike that you could also take off road. Where as most seem like offroad bikes that you can also ride on roads.

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Yeah..that's quite a lot more exposed to the wind, as compared to a pair of brake pads :-/

This looks like it will be one of the best examples to do an "apples to apples" comparison. VE testing (which includes power to rotate) against a regular Madone would be interesting...

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Maybe you will finally get your wish of comparing identical frames.

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Maybe I'll see about arranging something with the local Trek dealer...

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Let me know if you can pull it off. I'd PayPal you some beer money for the effort

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They have to be released for sale first ;-)

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I see this as a win-win. This is a great option if you want a comfortable aero disc bike. Hopefully people who can afford one will be interested in selling their rim-brake Madone. Then the rest of us cheapskates can hopefully get a reasonable deal on the old model. I have too much invested in PowerTap hubs to even consider a disc bike

I’ve looked at the Allez sprint a lot. What do you like about it?

I really like the look of this bike...

I just realized that this bike doesn't have top tube bosses. I know that top tube bentos aren't really a roady "thing" but, honestly, what's the harm in having bosses there?

I can't think of a single road bike with top tube bento bosses and I'm glad this one will not be the first.

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I regret not having them installed on my custom Stinner...

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But a custom steel/ti road bike, which already breaks its lines for things like cable bosses, it a lot different than an all-out carbon aero road bike.

Just look at the bike and its clean, purposeful lines. It's meant for racing, not snacking.

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https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
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Sounds like you haven't seen pics of my Stinner "Aero Camino" then ;-)

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I'm sold! The new Madone Disc needs bosses for a frame pump as well!

That's a nice bike, no question. And since it's YOUR bike that you had built custom for you, then you can damn well have it built the way you wanted it. But the Madone Disc is a different beast, and very few buyers of that bike are going to want to put a top tube bento on that thing. Horses for courses.

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Oh my. My wife said I could get a new Stinner as a wedding present but I didn’t know these exsisted.

I use mine mainly for crit racing where it really shines but I’ve logged thousands of miles between the 3 I’ve had. (Only reason I’ve replaced them is for colorway preferences.) I’ve done crits, road races, weekend rides, Mt Mitchell climbs and just about everything on it and the only time I’ve ever wished I was on a different bike was on a cobblestone road. This bike is STIFF. It will bounce your ass right off the seat if you aren’t paying attention, every with 24c TC tires, a carbon railed saddle and carbon bars you feel every little thing. That said the bike corners like a dream, has fairly decent aerodynamics, can get pretty light (I think mine was around 17# with DA9000 build, cages, powermeter, pedals and HED 6+ wheels) can handle 25c tires on HED + rims (maybe even 28s but I only have ran a 25 with plenty of space.) and most important it’s price leaves me a lot less worried. I go down on my Madone and I’m going to be a lot more worried about the consequences compared to a $1800 bike. I got in a wreck in a crit and walked away with a dent in the downtube but the bike still rides and handles the same as before and I have zero reservations about its integrity for future use. I really don’t think there’s a better deal out right now.

Looks like they have a through axle / QR hybrid system for fastening the hubs.

My question, anybody know what the rear dropout spacing is?

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They’re probably using Mavic’s Speed Release system which is 142.

Well...it is a bit of a "one of" :-)

I know they've done at least one other frame similar to it (using the same tubing and orientations), but it was a triathlon build, and it didn't have the internal cabling. So, it's not one of their "stock" frames...but, they still do custom. It just costs a little more.

In fact, now that True Temper has stopped producing bicycle tubes, it might be quite hard to find the teardrop shaped, Yamaguchi designed seat stay tubing if one wanted to recreate it :-(

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After I posted I saw your blog post and started to question the feasibility of another one. Bummer, that is one incredible bike.

Man, what a lame bike. In fact, it's so lame I think you should let me take it off your hands. Just let me know a convenient time to pick it up.

Joking aside, I love the paint scheme, very classy! Nice ride!

No, Trek uses plain old DT Swiss thru-axles. It’s just a threaded lag bolt with an L-handle. DT Swiss does offer a slightly fancier version where the handle is just a hex key that inserts into the bolt portion.

Specs should be as follows...

Front 12x100mm (122mm 1.75mm thread pitch Trek ABP/Maxle)
Rear 12x142mm (167mm 1.75mm thread pitch Trek ABP/Maxle)

The details in paratheses are important if you want to buy third-party thru axles.

You joke, but I often hear laments that most modern frames aren't set up to accommodate a frame pump properly. How hard is it to add a small nub behind the head tube?

I seriously considered asking for a "chain keeper" lug on the seat stay for the build. My old Bianchi has one of those and it comes in really handy when the rear wheel is out ;-)

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Thanks! The inspiration was 60's race cars, that often were white with a blue racing stripe down the middle...also, this:

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