One way to answer your question is to look at the athlete rankings on the USA Triathlon page. You can see by age group and sex the number of people that were registered and finished a sanctioned race for each year. There are flaws in this approach as the results could reflect changing preferences by race directors toward sanctioning. Or, a change in the number of sanctioned races.

That said, for my age group (60-64) there was a 2017 reflects a 2nd year of declining numbers. I also looked at the 40-45 age group which tends to be one of the larger groups. This group had a pretty significant drop in numbers from 2016 to 2017....assuming that most of the 2017 races are in the system.

As an anecdotal observation, there was a drop off in the number of triathlons in my region this year. When I look at the 2018 calendar their seem to be a few less.

The trend lines seem negative.

Here in NC one of the racing companies cut 3 races off the schedule due to low participation.

I need to see what the other 2 companies have done.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

The strong will survive

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I've not seen any increase or decrease in the number of triathlons in the Tampa Bay area; although I've observed a shift in participation from one race management company's offerings to those of another race management company. If you branch out a little, there are a few new sprint triathlons in the area around Tampa Bay. Looking at long course in the Central/South Florida region, IM70.3 Miami is now gone, but two new half ironman races have popped up for 2018 (Florida Half @ Jensen Beach and Challenge Daytona). Participation in Clermont triathlons appears to be down but other races seem to be holding steady. In short, I would say it is in flux as the market is still trying to find itself. For related sports in the area, mud runs seem to be in decline, cyclo-cross events are increasing, duathlon is still dying, and extreme events are in a slight uptick (Ultraman Florida, Florida Double Anvil, and the Florida XTreme).

think we have to wait until the USAT report for 2017, my guess is down on the men's side but I think women's continues to grow.

Anyone know if there is a report on world participation? I'd be curious if growth is stronger in LatAm or Asia. Is triathlon still growing in Europe?

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

I've seen a wide variety. Some that always sold out - sold out. Some were better, some were worse. Our spring in the North East sucked and I'm sure that caused some declines. One race my son and I normally do was terrible weather and not 1 40+ showed up to race (I guess we get smarter as we age)

That said - September in our region is very over populated with races causing individual declines

Is lower participation due to a stronger economy? Any correlation there?

It was definitely down here in Missouri. I don't keep track of all the triathlons, so I can't quantify it accurately, but I'd guess we're down around 10%.

I do, however, keep track of participation at all the half and full marathons in the state, and we're down for the third year in a row. In fact, the rate of decline is still increasing. Here are the total number of half and full marathon finishers in Missouri:

2012 52,762
2013 55,716
2014 56,787
2015 51,999
2016 47,894
2017 42,000 (there's just one small race to go, and I've included an estimate of 300 finishers for it)

Six half and/or full marathons (of a total of 68) that were held in 2016 didn't return in 2017.

Just this past week, Rock 'n' Roll St. Louis was cancelled for 2018. In the inaugural year of 2011, that race had nearly 18,000 finishers. This year, they had 5,500--and that includes 2,000 for the 5K and 10K that weren't even offered until participation started falling precipitously a few years ago.

In short, the situation is bad compared to a few years ago, and while I keep looking for signs of leveling off, I don't see any.

Why do you think running is down?

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

I think one should differentiate between USA, EU, etc.

While I did not do any research, I'm sure that running as a sport is growing in the Netherlands (and I think across whole of Europe). Marathon and semi-marathon numbers are up. And smaller local races are booming.

For triathlon I'm sure that the short distance (1/8 and 1/4) is growing rapidly in the Netherlands and 70.3/140.6 as well (at least, from what I've heard). As for the whole or Europe, I'm not sure what the tendency is. Except for Challenge Roth, I don't think a lot of races sell out realllllly fast....

I think what people are missing is that, other than soccer, nearly all sports are seeing a decline in participation. This is the logical outcome of an aging population that is stagnant in size.

and...
perhaps, many in the younger demographics prefer doing their activities via technology (i.e., video games, etc.)

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I'm 30. eSports is absolutely HUGE amongst people my age and younger and I think people older than me vastly underestimate just how big eSports have (has?) become.

eSports = oxymoron

And getting fatter, including the younger ones

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What the heck is eSports?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It might not be a sport in that there's no physical exertion but the skill/talent/teamwork level involved is off the charts.

Competitive video games.

A nonsport for overweight Millennials. From wiki: eSports is a form of competition using video games. Most commonly, eSports take the form of organized, multiplayer video game competitions, particularly between professional players. The most common video game genres associated with eSports are real-time strategy, fighting, first-person shooter, and multiplayer online battle arena.

Is lower participation due to a stronger economy? Any correlation there?


Triathlon draws heavily from what many would consider the upper-middle class, based on average incomes in the sport.

If the economy is doing well then these people should be doing well - better financially and economically with higher consumer confidence. But this is NOT leading to better retail numbers in the tri and bike business! Almost all retailers and manufacturers in the business are down over the last couple of years. Trek CEO John Burke recently said that if you are above being 3.5% DOWN, then you had a good year last year!!

One high ranking industry exec, from one of the leading brands in tri/bike told me recently that, people are simply not replacing and buying new stuff -particularly the big-ticket items like bikes, as frequently as they used to because, they really don't need to - the quality of the mid to high-end stuff is so good.

I concur with the above. I have a 6 year old top-line road bike with full Dura-Ace on it, and it's working/riding amazing. I ride a moderate amount - I always ask myself - do I need something new?

What you see on the bike side of things is the brands pushing "new" categories, like Gravel, or CX, or variations on a theme like disk-brakes, to eek out a few more sales.

In the past, I've seen correlations for endurance sports doing well in DOWN economies (that's NOT the case now), and that was because, in down economies people start to value experiences more than purchasing products.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think what people are missing is that, other than soccer, nearly all sports are seeing a decline in participation. This is the logical outcome of an aging population that is stagnant in size.

Yes and no.

Yes there is a general decline in sports participation and physical activity, but the BIGGEST cohort in the population right now in North America, my understanding are millennials! This SHOULD be good news for endurance sports or any sports for that matter, but this is a generation that is VERY unique and different than ANY generation that preceded it. Others above, have noted the influence of things like eGames, and you have to understand this is the first generation to grown up completely and wholly with the internet and digital technology, that is something that they use EVERYDAY in some cases all day!


We, us parents, have taken a WRONG approach to sports with our kids and youth, making it be all ultra-serious, by the time they are 10 years old. Net result - those millennials - by the time they are in their late teens - are not setting records on sports fields, there is a record amount of INACTIVITY among them!


Strange times!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That is what I thought. And we wonder why life length is decreasing.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yep, I clearly see this in my crank length thread. Rather than folks see I am having fun, they are going NUTS taking things WAY too serious!! 99% of sport is just a hobby!!!! NO one is putting food on their table with sports. But boy do some take it as life or death. Get a life!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Locally here in Ontario - one of the bigger and more mature triathlon marketplaces in North America, my sense is that overall race participation numbers are down. Retail sales numbers at bike/tri shops are down.

My client Multisport Canada, who I do a significant amount of Race Announcing work for, did cut some races, for the 2017 season from their series. On the ones that remained on their schedule, I believe they held steady with their numbers from the previous year - which in the current climate - is a "win".

The really big win, for Multisport Canada was with their featured race, the Barrelman Triathlon in Niagara Falls. This race has bucked current trends and since its start 4 years ago INCREASED it's numbers every year and this year broke through the 1000 participants threshold! The Barrelman, may be the largest non-IRONMAN 1/2 IM distance in North America! To the best of my knowledge - No other independent 1/2 IM distance race has grown in numbers over the same time period as the Barrelman has!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

ESPN and colleges are in talks to broadcast it and start giving scholarships for it. eSports is really the next big thing in "sports".

Which is funny because the eSports leagues want no part of the NCAA "amateurism" rules....these people make bank on madden and other game "tournaments" each year, they have basically laughed in the face of presidents telling them they need to join together and give up making money to play a "game".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

https://nypost.com/2017/07/08/were-losing-a-whole-generation-of-young-men-to-video-games/

Why do you think running is down?


My pet theory on this is related to socio-economics.

Running, and triathlon and cycling pull heavily from the upper-middle class. Survey participants at , running cycling and triathlon races and events and the average income is usually over $100,000. Mots recent data from USAT pegged the average for their members at $129,000, and I've seen IRONMAN demographic information that it's $150,000 for those doing IM races.

The population of those making this kind of money or in this upper-middle class group is not growing in North America. In fact, it may be shrinking.

So, in any given population you'll reach a natural maximum number of people that will get involved in something - we may be at that max number for running cycling and triathlon.

That's why the millennials are key in all this, but the news on them in this thread, and what they are into, is NOT encouraging.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Wow, that article was terrible.

Anyone know if obstacle course (Spartan/Tough Mudder) participation is still increasing? For a while I kept seeing articles saying how this was the new marathon for millennials. Gives more of a "I had a crazy experience that led to a great selfie" environment than traditional endurance races.

I dont know if obstacle races declined but I think I remember the color/rush "runs" had peaked a few years ago....those are pretty much made for "fun" 5k environments.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Anyone know if obstacle course (Spartan/Tough Mudder) participation is still increasing?

It's down significantly. But for a number of years it was in unsustainable growth territory. The smart-ones in the events side of things, knew this at the time, and made appropriate plans for the inevitable down-turn in numbers.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

That's why the millennials are key in all this, but the news on them in this thread, and what they are into, is NOT encouraging.

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Read your long paragraph opening sentence and you'll kinda see why it's more triathlon now is having some egg on it's own face, and scrambling to fix it.

eta: we became a sport for almost exclusively wealthy people.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'd agree with this. I was sort of forced in playing golf competitively when I was younger. I played 18-20 tournaments a year not counting high school tournaments and practiced before and after school and almost all day during the weekends from the time I was ten until the time I graduated from college. I took a run at playing professionally for a year but, at that point, I was so burnt out that I honestly dreaded picking up a club or even seeing a golf course. Now I haven't touched a club in close to a decade. About six of the guys I played with in junior/college golf now play professionally (not the ones anyone would have guessed either) and the other fifty or so that I've kept up with or crossed paths with are in the same boat as me.

... you hear similar stories about baseball, football, etc. IMO, I think it's very rare that a kid takes something... anything... seriously at a young age and carries that into adulthood. I think it's far more common that they take something seriously and then end up resenting it. Kids should be allowed and encouraged to be kids. That's just my $0.02.

the missing link here is, millennials have no money and not much hope of ever getting any - high expense sports like tri aren't possible for them.

Lower wages, student debt, jobs without benefits, and poverty account for 99% of what rich old people find strange about millennials.

My oldest boy is a millennial, he is smart, ambitious and works way harder than I ever had to as a teenager or young man. His friends are all like him, they have been working hard and long hours since 9th grade to try and qualify in the college lottery, now working long and hard hours at college and summer jobs to try to qualify for the postgrad lottery that is what college used to be. I can no longer afford my house in Denver so he has no hope of being able to buy a house here. My nieces and nephews in Australia cannot ever hope to afford houses in Perth, except by inheritance. They are engineers, Phd in microbiology, etc etc - worked hard, played by the rules, got shafted.

Sunday at church, was talking to a new engineer, had to work a year as an unpaid intern before he found a job. He's living at home now while paying off student debt. This is an engineer, supposedly one of the STEM winners in the new economy.

My younger boy is not quite a millennial, but he is a committed socialist, as he can quite easily see that capitalism has failed.
"What’s their experience been with capitalism? They have had two recessions, one really bad one. They have a mountain of student-loan debt. They’ve got really high health-care costs, and their job prospects are mediocre at best. So that’s capitalism for you.”
It's very difficult to argue him out of this, since he is basically right. We don't have a millennial problem, we have a failed economy problem..

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"It is a good feeling for old men who have begun to fear failure, any sort of failure, to set a schedule for exercise and stick to it. If an aging man can run a distance of three miles, for instance, he knows that whatever his other failures may be, he is not completely wasted away." Romain Gary, SI interview

And those wealthy people are starting to not see the cost/benefit of racing. I could easily pay for racing 10-15 Tris a year. But when you look st the cost of an sprint where I am hovering around $85-100, I start being hard pressed to want to do that.

Went they were 40-50, for an hour issue of racing it seems like a good deal. Double that, not so much for a lot of people.

Took the words out of my eMouth!! :))))

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"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"

I dont blame parents, I rather think they are suckers. Suckers in believing that little johnnie has to play "fall ball" baseball year round at age 10 or else he'll fall developmentally behind. I remember the first "fall ball" league in NC when I was 13 (circa 1995). It was the 1st ever league to play organizational baseball outside the "designated" time of a spring/summer sport. I was playing JV football and was an outstanding all star level infielder in baseball. I remember the day I ran home "mom mom, I can now play baseball in the fall"....her response- "Nope, you want to play sports in the fall- play football or run cross country. Baseball is a spring/summer sport and you need a break from it." I was the only one of 2 who was on the all star baseball team that didn't play fall ball.

I coach a youth tri team every summer ages 7-12 and on the 1st day of practice, I repeat this line every single year...."your kids are not triathletes, they dont need to be triathletes, they are athletes learning great development skills that will translate to many sports....they need to play football in the fall, basketball in the spring, baseball/lacrosse/band/dance anything that allows them to be active at this age". I hate the word specialization for someone younger than age 14/15.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Personally, I think it is a failed parent issue! Who in the world would support, encourage, etc a kid to go off to college and pay the crazy prices some are paying? One can get a college education without falling into the trap but it has to be the best school that has been marketed correctly. But we all know I did everything wrong with my kids. (They both got out of college with zero debt)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I wonder if Crossfit has taken away any triathletes. The same minded people might be interested in crossfit as opposed to TRI. Plus, you add to the fact the recent research says running ( marathons etc) and long distance tri are really bad for your health, its no wonder the level or participation is down. People motivated by getting in good health won't be running or doing tri now they know its really not very healthy.

Millenials are going to be the downfall of our society. soft, weak minded, poor work ethic, entitled snowflakes. Heaven help us all!!

Millenials are going to be the downfall of our society. soft, weak minded, poor work ethic, entitled snowflakes. Heaven help us all!!

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLpE1Pa8vvI

ETA: For those at work or can't click on link....it's a funny parody song about millennials; making fun of them thinking they'll be millionaires but have no job, sitting at coffee shop with their man bun, etc, laughing "gotta love millennials"....."In a couple of years we'll have to pass the torch...in a couple of years our next president will be............oh nooooo a.....MILLENIAL"....fades to black.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Love it

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Too much drivel in here to respond to everything, other than to note that 1) the U.S. did not become a socialist country after the Great Depression; and 2) I didn't have the money or the time to do triathlon when I was in my 20s.

I have 4 kids with a range from 19-37, but two of my sons are 27 and 30. Neither have any college debt, and both are working a side job while they grow their own business. Both have done triathlon (one up to and including Ironman and the other a couple of 70.3s). Their biggest issue with triathlon is the same I had in my 20s/30s ... no time for multisport while working on their career...so both are back to strictly running.

As to house prices in Denver; how about telling me how many people lived there in 1977 and how many live there in 2017. I know what the front range looked like back then and what the I-25 corridor is like now. And after you identify that massive population increase, tell me how much additional land was created in those 40 years. Single family home prices will rise commensurately with the demand for land and it's not going to change regardless of whether the economy is structured under capitalism or socialism.

Sad thing is these people have convinced themselves the E-gaming stuff is a real sport. Skill, teamwork, competition, BS....

Its kids sitting in their pajamas with a headset on in a dark room all day. WTH!!!

And I don't care if they make tons of money doing it...stupid people make tons of money every day doing stupid things.

E-games are not sports anymore than Darts or billiards are sports.

Rant Over....Get off My lawn.

Mine for one. Yeah, that ivy league education isn't worth anything is it?

Yep, nothing that extra money can be proved to increase wages. Bottom line, some of the best folks I hired either had no college degrees, and had the wrong ones from the wrong schools. But do did they have the right genetics, which was way way more important. I never looked at hiring folks because of the college they went to. I looked at things like did they work while going to school. And if I knew they had lots of debt, well, ...

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Not true


I have no doubt. Plenty of smart,qualified people out there who did not attend college or didn't attend the top colleges.


I won't go as far as to say you are alone in that regard, but as shocking as it may sound to you, the college/university that you attend plays a major factor in the job(s) you are able to obtain after graduating--and for the rest of your life. Since I have experienced that hiring preference first-hand, it is something that I plan to emphasize for my children.

Me:

6 year old TT bike. 10 speed. Replacing it with a new "super bike" would save me... 10 watts? For $5000+? No thanks.
5 year old aero road bike. Same thing but upgraded to D/A 11 speed when I got a deal in the classifieds here.
Haven't seen any new tech that makes me want to buy a new frame.

The only thing I bothered upgrading was my 2x, canti brakes CX bike to a 1x, hydraulic disc. Huge difference there.

Perhaps this is why road manufacturers are trying to push discs.

^^^^^ I think this is the answer. I think free and almost free events are still seeing growth. We have a free run club in town that can get hundreds of people to show up for a mid-week evening run.

If you can figure out how to promote and offer a reasonably priced race people are happy to participate. But at least near me there is a limited number of people willing to pay $100 for a sprint triathlon.

Getting back on topic our race was up last year and trending higher (earlier sell-out) this year. I find Triathlon went to far in the "experience/finisher" sector to try and reel in more participants.
We like to offer a race over an event. It is a race for everyone from front to back. We have low(ish) fees, prize money but more importantly focus on the event itself.

Our racks our reserved. First 20 spots are ranked by ability then remaining spots are by age from youngest to oldest so age groups are clumped together. Transition is fair for everyone. Everyone has a shot at prize money. #7 in ITU this year won our race in 2015. She was racing an IM Pro and some top level age groupers as well as everyone else in the field. All got the same treatment.

For a lot of folks who are into that ego stuff, I agree. But yep, I was a unique manager, surprised? I found the best folks, and could care less about if they had a degree or what type.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

We are done here. I don't know why I bother, but I did. I'm talking about the hiring managers, not the candidates. So, it has nothing to do with ego. The hiring managers care about the college/university the candidate attended. No, it is surprising one bit that you would go against the grain. And, some others would too. But, my point is that the VAST majority of hiring managers will care.

Thanks for focusing back on the original question and giving your perspective.....I would appreciate hearing others who pay attention to participation numbers in their areas.....and people can offer their perceptions behind the numbers and why they are up and down and if we are going to level off......I would also appreciate others ignoring the usual actor that derails threads. My personal policy is never to respond to a certain poster.

As Bryan D stated, here in NC some of the race companies have dropped races. Our area (NC) used to be a hot bed for triathlon, but now is down for sure. Hell there is talks that IM 70.3 NC may be cancelled.....why....money. Which is really annoying because the original B2B was affordable and worked "with" the community. So if communities want to play more hardball with an company like WTC and make them walk, I get it.

HS aged athletes have grown a ton in NC, new team out of triad E3 has increased a lot of numbers there.

ETA: I think locally the "classic" events are growing strong, what we are seeing is the races that are only a few years old seem to be struggle. Probaly NC's best race besides 70.3 Raleigh, would be Lake Logan race weekend.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I was interested in this new SwimRun in Minnesota...(ironically I had mentioned this area as a fantastic place for a Swimrun in a thread at one point months ago....)

BUT...it was $400 for a 2 person team at the cheapest rate and was turned off....what are others thoughts about the price for this event??

https://www.igniteswimrun.com/minnesota

....I assume this is one part of causing participation numbers eroding....here is an event I would be interested in but immediately turned off by the price....and I could afford to pay it....no problem....but just couldn't justify it....

There is a local group here that organizes free outdoor run group training.
It's not sponsored, you don't get marketed to, you just show up and someone explains the workout and everyone goes for it.
It's MASSIVELY popular, and putting all those personal trainers and expensive clinics out of business.

Personal anecdote about race organizing: I organize gravel and road rides.
For me to turn one of those into an event, instantly puts me at starting expenses of a minimum $3000. Insurance, medical, timing, aid stations.
For an event with any frills at all, I'm looking at $5000+
For a big experience event, double that and up.
Putting on a multisport event has similar costs or more.

The complexity of multisport and bureaucracy creates a lot of incentives against putting on events, and leaving only expensive events.

As much as I enjoy what now looks to be the annual “blame millenials for the sport’s (assumed) decline” thread, I had some thoughts on this.

Perceived Startup Cost:

Swim
Pool Membership $50/mo
Masters Membership $30/mo
Goggles $50/yr
Speedos $100
Wetsuit $500+

Bike
Bike $4,000+
Race wheels $2,000
Shoes $150
Power Meter $1,000
Trainer $1,000+
Training Platform $100-$200
Clothing $500

Run
Training Shoes $500 (1 pair a quarter)
Racing flats $100+
Training clothing $200+

Misc.
USAT License $45
Coach $1,000+
Team $30+
Nutrition $2,000
GPS watch, bike computer, etc $1,000

That’s before you get to the opportunity cost of 10+hrs a week of training. Then you have to pay for your races.

We all know that entry into the sport costs less than this, and these things are accumulated over time. That said, anyone who counts that cost before beginning the hobby would easily be convinced to try something else. We’re already talking about a small subsection of culture that finds endurance sports interesting. We are the sport’s worst enemy. Not millenials.

-a nearly millenial’s perspective (born Feb ‘84)

Yep, I was a hiring manager for 20 years. Had more women engineers than any other manager. Had tons of folks I hired end up in very top positions in various companies.
But I agreed with you, the VAST did care about a title rather than a persons ability. And yep, this allowed me to get some very very top talent with the wrong piece of papers.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You literally need half of that and almost all of it you can get for 1/2 to 1/4 of that cost you put in.

Can equipment be stupidly expensive, sure, but you don’t need it.

I agree....but do you think potential new Triathletes know that?

So very true. I started up with the sport two years ago and my total expenses are significantly less. Still, when I work to draw friends in to participate with me, the cost is hard to overcome.

I just did the math on my year and a half in the sport, and I’m into it for about $5,500, and I already owned a nice road bike. It adds up really fast.

I know half of the active people on this forum have a product to sell, but a sticky of how to get started in the sport without taking out a second mortgage may be helpful?

There is a local group here that organizes free outdoor run group training.

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I'd be curious if they make people sign waivers or not (acknowledging the risk). Or if it truly is just a "show up and run" setup.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I know half of the active people on this forum have a product to sell, but a sticky of how to get started in the sport without taking out a second mortgage may be helpful?

Ok try this, my comments in red on your "perceived cost"....

Perceived Startup Cost:

Swim
Pool Membership $50/mo ....fair cost
Masters Membership $30/mo....fair cost
Goggles $50/yr...i'd give cost that over 2 years and including backup
Speedos $100.....i'd wager that is a cost over 2 year average)
Wetsuit $500+ .....you can give a full sleeved for under $300
(so i saved you about $275)

Bike
Bike $4,000+ (buy a Cervelo/Felt/BMC for $3k tops)
Race wheels $2,000 (rent them for your A race, ~$200 dollars at most)
Shoes $150 ....fair cost
Power Meter $1,000.....single sided crank based for less than $700-garmin
Trainer $1,000+......you can get a solid trainer for under $400 and wont wear your tire out
Training Platform $100-$200
Clothing $500
(just saved you ~$3000)

Run
Training Shoes $500 (1 pair a quarter)
Racing flats $100+
Training clothing $200+

Misc.
USAT License $45
Coach $1,000+.....you can find free training programs online
Team $30+
Nutrition $2,000
GPS watch, bike computer, etc $1,000


I think some of your figures are slightly "expensive", as you can easily get "quality" name brand equipment much cheaper than quoted. But then it's what do you want out of this sport? Want to go as fast as you can, then sure you'll need some items, but you can certainly race fast and well without a $4k bike and race wheels.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Agreed. I've been building PCs and being a PC gamer since 2003. The skill level and team work required to win those tournaments is crazy. People think it's just a video game. It's not, it's so much more than that.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I feel like I’m derailing the thread now, so sorry to the OP.

Your red numbers are totally valid, but they still add up to to around $10k. Like I said earlier, my real world startup costs are in the $5k range, and I’ve tried to stay pretty cheap (self coached, inexpensive bulk buys for nutrition, eBay purchases etc). My costs DO include races and local travel (fuel/campground).

However, my point is perceived cost. Someone new to the sport is going to look at an Ironman entry fee and immediately balk. If they have a friend who participates, they may find a YMCA try a tri and give it a shot. But then they’ll run into the world of forums and podcasts and potentially decide they had a great one time experience and try something else.

The runologie run club does this and the Sir Walter group has pop up miles and XC races they will organize that are all free. The only triathlon specific event like this I saw was through that store Trilife. They had a strava group but would put on these throw-down events around Jordan I think. I had messaged one to see if they actually had folks attend, but no response. Also a quick google shows they are no longer in business. . .

I have been looking for tri clubs that may do things like this, but they seem pretty few and far between compared to the running scene in Raleigh.

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Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7

Yup. One time waiver.

A few years ago tri life (now out of business) had free tri and duathlons like Once a quarter. You had to sign waivers for those events and they even gave away top 3 prizes. For them it was a way to try and grow customer base for their tri store.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

One would hope that someone new to the sport would start off with sprint triathlons and take a few years climbing the ladder to get to an Ironman. I know there are some that go straight to the big event; but that reminds me of folks whose first running race is a marathon. Stupid is as stupid does.

gotcha, they must have been out of business once I discovered them. I will ask Pat if they require waivers for the pop-up miles and XC stuff. The Runologie training may be the same way then. I know they offer a coached 1/2 marathon group program for pretty cheap, but they also offer a free program that just says to show up on wednesdays.

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Use this link to save $5 off your USAT membership renewal:
https://membership.usatriathlon.org/...A2-BAD7-6137B629D9B7

I think the decline will continue. I think triathlon participation in the U.S. has peaked, but I think triathlon as we've known it in the U.S. since the mid 1980s will continue for least another 15 years. Who will be the Dan Empfield of U.S. triathlon in 20 years? (Sorry Slowman if I'm putting you out to pasture too soon).

As we all know, competing in triathlons isn't the only way to enjoy SBR. I work at a university and I still see a lot of young people running around campus and working out in the rec center.

Yes, we would hope people would know that. I also know that when I tell someone I did a triathlon over the weekend, their eyes bug out and they say, “that thing in Hawaii?’

It’s a niche sport in an already small niche.

You really do have to be a gamer to understand just how unworldly the pros are.... similarly, you'd have to be a triathlete to appreciate how insane the S/B/R times are of some of the pros. If you told someone random on the streets that Patrick Lange ran a 2:39 at Kona last year they'd say "so what?"

What happens after 15 years? No more Ironman? ITU disbands? Marathon participation falls so low that Boston and NYC close their doors? And we end up with only a choice between color runs and eSport?

I wrote "triathlon as we've known it in the U.S. since the mid 1980s" so I wasn't writing about marathons. If the average U.S. triathlete (not the common Joe on the street) in 15 or 20 years simply says he or she is doing an IM whenever he or she is doing a triathlon of any distance it won't be triathlon as we've known it since the 1980s. ITU can be dominant in other parts of the world in 15 or 20 years, but even less of a factor in the U.S. than it is now. I realize this sort of reads like a doomsday scenario, so maybe there is little reason to be concerned about the current fade in U.S. triathlon participation.:)

I think the sport goes more and more to a legal drafting such that is what Mexico triathlons are basically currently. Less about the equipment and also easier on officials. Just show up and race, simpler format.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

A good pair of running shoes is $100. A nice pair of running shorts will set you back $30.

It's not the cost.

---

'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

easier on officials. Just show up and race, simpler format.


Brooks,

I still don't know if we are ready for this in Canada/U.S. - but you are right. It's SO much simpler. Les McDonald was really onto something when he got rid of the no-drafting rules on the bike for the ITU racing*, Yes - it changed things. But it significantly simplified the sport of triathlon - swim/bike/run - however you like and the first across the finish-line wins!

*Actually, it was the IOC that told Les, that they had to simplify the sport.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Still waiting on all the reports of death and injuries caused by the drafting races in Mexico

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Crazy that they cut races and increase the first race of the year by $20. All other races increased by $10.
I have managed to get a couple of coworkers over the past few years to participate in this first event. They aren't as interested his year. Kinda hard to convince people to pay $75+$15+$5 processing fee to "try it out".
The math actually works though. Get two hundred fewer people to deal with and make the same $.
Whatever, folks like me will be there no matter the cost.

I do not believe for a second that people will tell their friends they are doing an Ironman in 15 years when they sign up for the local sprint triathlon. I do concur that ITU will be less of a factor than it is now. A good harbinger of that is how little, if any, impact Gwen Jorgensen's gold medal had on the sport in the U.S.

While you did not mention running in your post, I brought up the marathon because I believe the same trends that are negatively impacting tri participation are impacting running as well.

My prediction: continued fall-off of triathlon in the U.S. to a more sustainable level, but one that is better than it was in the 80s and 90s although still below the heights reached around 2010-2012. About the time we level off, the shake-out will begin in Europe where the surge has lagged the US a few years, but has now reached unsustainable levels in long course.

In Europe it is not growing, it is exploding. Local races selling out within days some even in hours, but also in the rest of the EU races go pretty fast in selling out. And not the big races, IM and Challenge per se but also the local races.
We seem to be on a growing curve for the last 4 - 5 years and the end is not in sight yet.

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Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands

Agree if there are still local sprint triathlons in the U.S. and they aren't owned by WTC. ;)

Agree with the rest of your comments. I don't see Boston and NYC marathons disappearing in 15 years.

Possibly. OTOH, the declining participation has the benefit of reducing the drafting problem.

I wasn’t suggesting it to fix the drafting problem. I was more suggesting legal drafting for simplicity . You swim you bike and you run, really no rules to fumble over.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Yeah, the European growth has been pretty exciting to watch but I do believe you are at the end of the surge for long course. About 5 years ago there wasn't a single branded IM along the Baltic/North Sea and now for 2018 you have IM Sweden, IM Copenhagen, IM Hamburg, IM Estonia and IM Norway.

I'm signed up for the latter but I give it 3 years max before its gone. The predecessor Haugesund 70.3 grew for several years from inception and then the numbers started falling off quickly. I think they converted to a full to generate some new interest, but will be very surprised if they get 1500 registered (it's still in Tier 1, meaning less than 1000 athletes so far). That race may be the first domino to all in Europe. I truly hope I'm wrong, but that's my guess.

Devils advocate... I'm a hiring manager at a Fortune 50 company (low level, but I have to deal with HR anyway) and that piece of paper gets your resume in my inbox, without it, it never gets past the filter.

That in itself is why the "big name" schools continue to prevail, you need the paper to get in the door. Even with miles of experience, it is very difficult to get past the filter. By the time you can get through, you can probably make more with a boss like you that will pay for the intangibles and experience vs the degree. But that's the problem with big companies in general.

keep looking, there are a few (I know of one in Raleigh) that will have minimally organized self supported "half" events some years. It's been a bit, but they will do one if there is a need.

I honestly see this as the next grass roots push. I have a hard time paying $100 to work out for 60 mins at a local sprint. I don't even like paying for charity rides.. what am I getting besides the feel good of supporting a charity that I may or may not have any common goal with? But some random people getting together to swim a lap around a buoy at a lake, then go for a ride and follow that with a run? What happened to that? Isn't that how Kona started?

I never needed to look at resumes since i always asked my team member's to find folks they wanted to work with.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Bit of a tangent: kids being turned off by sports by overbearing soccer moms and hockey dads is one problem. The other is that there is hardly any infrastructure for older teens that don't make it into competitive teams, be it high school varsity or equivalent in clubs.

Anecdote: My son ran with a youth T&F club for a while. What I noticed was that all kids were crazy fast, and that there was no opportunity for slower kids (my son was way younger than the rest, and therefore slower, and all they could offer him was running with girls 4 years older than him that didn't talk to him. He managed to stay motivated for 6 months, and almost washed out of the sport at age 11. Way to go, coach).

I've noticed that many other sports are like that - at a certain point there's a cut-off (which varies by sport) and if you're not identified as having potential that's the end of it. You're stuck on the couch until university, when there's usually intermurals - which suffer from the reverse problem: not competitive enough, i.e. it's all about participation and let's for goodness sake not try to win the damned game. And then you graduate and all that's available then is the gym - or running.

Of course, I'm painting with a terribly broad brush here. But the general concept is there.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

I have to ask you, how has it worked out?

Over the last two years we have hired 5 analyst (banking) onto our team. Two from Ivy League Schools, One from Carnegie Mellon, and two from state schools. Guess who has worked out the best...the two kids from state schools. The other kids are entitled and do not appreciate the opportunity they are given as they know they will be given 100 more chances just because of where their degree was printed.

Now, when you say "that piece of paper" are you talking about an Ivy League degree or just a degree in general? Because if you are just going after ivy leaguers, you are missing out big time and should probably let a few kids that don't have that through to the interview process. Our analyst program is large and we have interviewed thousands of kids, mostly from Ivy League schools...but not exclusively. The best ones have consistently come from non-ivy schools.

But some random people getting together to swim a lap around a buoy at a lake, then go for a ride and follow that with a run? What happened to that?

——-
You bring up Raleigh area, that happens every weekend at Falls Lake on Sunday. The Falls Lake swim group (mostly triathletes) do a swim and most of time will bike x miles and if you want to run you run. Then finish with a bbq. Some come just for the swim and bbq and others so “bricks“. It’s strictly friends, nothing “organized” (I say organized because it’s no signed waivers, no shop affiliation, etc). Very informal, just show up and do whatever you want to do.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I did my undergrad at Montana State University and am currently in graduate school at the University of Utah. I can't say I ever even considered going to anything other than a state school. The cost/benefit balance just doesn't work out. I also seriously doubt that I'm getting much worse of an education for having gone this route.

Also, just replying to this thread in general, i can say that there are people in my generation who do triathlon. I started a club at Montana State that is doing quite well, and there are a number of people i train with here at the U of U who are very involved with the sport.

It's a bit like that for adults as well. Clubs are often set up around either beginners or those who want to podium. The fast and the slow. There's not so much in the middle.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Fondly remember those training races in the late 90's at Lake Hartwell put on by Tri-Atlanta.
Was fantastic and really got me hooked on the sport.
Not sure if they still do these "workouts"

Have always continued to do stage my own "triathlons" with co-workers and friends. Some more "swim- . street-legal" than others, but who is out on a Sun morning at 7AM anyway?
Just need a group of honest people (gotten more difficult) or friends to decide on and set a course and somebody to watch the gear in the parking lot.

No noticeable decline with high-profile events in the Bay area and SoCal. Crazy participation by the one-and-done Techie Show-Offs.

You're wrong ('83 here).

First of all, I don't think anybody that starts with a new hobby counts costs. You start with a hobby because you are interested. The costs come later.

Second of all, most of the beginners come from one of the three sports, so part of the costs have allready been covered.

Thirdly, your estimates are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too high. You count the costs of somebody at quite a high level. Normal beginners don't need 4 pairs of shoes (which would indicate about 4000km a year, a number almost nobody runs). No beginner will need wheels of 2000dollar/euro, nor a bike of 4000dollar. A coach and that much food is ridiculous for a first year triathlete.

I started with triathlon 2-3 years ago. I owned a decent racebike and 1 pair of running shoes. In the first year I did a half and just 'needed/wanted' a tri-bike, wetsuit, nice helmet and better/new shoes. The bike I bought secondhanded without wheels (1250 euro), the wetsuit new (350 euro) and a helmet (175 euro). The helmet and bike where optional, since I allready owned those (just not tri-specific). The wetsuit I needed (since in NL it's often too cold to swim open water without wetsuit, plus I need to float) :)

That being said, of course I spend waaaaaaayyyyyy more. I bought a disc wheel, garmin(s), trainer more wheels, MTB, more shoes, more kit, etc. But that was all optional and fun.

So, let me help you:

Swim
Pool Membership, buy loose tickets: 4 euro each time you swim indoor. Open water is free, € 30
Masters Membership, find somebody that teaches you the basics, use slowtwitch and youtube
Goggles, € 30 (mine already lasts 2 years)
Speedos, € 30
Wetsuit, € 350,00

Bike
Bike, second hand, including wheels, € 2.000,00
Race wheels, see above, or rent
Shoes € 100,00
Power Meter, not needed when entering the sport
Trainer, not needed when entering the sport (or buy secondhand for € 250,00)
Training Platform, not needed
Clothing € 350,00, for comfort buy a trisuit and some nice bibshorts/running shorts.

Run
Training Shoes € 125,00
Racing flats, not really need, but you could use them for fast training as well, € 125,00
Training clothing, already covered above

Misc.
USAT License, not sure about this one, but will write down € 50,00
Coach, hahaha
Team, not needed
Nutrition, € 100,00 will get you enough food for some training and 2 races
GPS watch, € 150,00 for a secondhand garmin forerunner, € 200,00 for a used 920xt


Total = € 3.440,00 (excluding truckerhat) but if one allready owns a bike € 2.000,00 can be saved. Tribike is nice for longer distances, but not a real 'must have' for one that is starting with 1/8 of 1/4 distances.

As an American who has lived the past nearly 20 years in Europe (last 10 in Italy) and has just moved to the greater NYC area in August...

Triathlon has been booming in Italy and in general Europe. At least in Italy, race fees are more modest (and yet still have increased by 50% since 2007). A half ironman will set you back less than 100euros booked in advance and 130 last minute. Also, given population density of a smaller continent, many many races are local. Ie I did all my half ironman races within 2 hours of Milan.

Psychologically and made also in reality, that meant that I was comfortable signing up for a race and should anything get in the way of it (injury, work, family commitments) too bad I didn't do it and was out of pocket for 100 Euros.

In the states, the prices seem to be 2.5x in Italy. I understand that NY is MUCH more expensive then Italy and I also understand that the US is more of a litigious society which translates into substantially higher RD insurance costs. But add the cost and the additional complexity/hassle of distance, and it is a turn off (this is coming from someone who absolutely loves / is passionate about triathlon).

I am too new to understand who these factors affect newbie participation... But if I extrapolate how this newbies based upon how it affects me (as aforementioned totally passionate about triathlon), I can see this posing a non insignificant barrier to entry.

Hope this is somewhat helpful

Yep, I have no idea what I was talking about or my experience in hiring for 20 years.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

With half Ironman I think you mean the 70.3 distance, not the IM branded races. Did 70.3 IM Italia last year, which was € 285,00 if I remember corectly. It is true that smaller local races seem to be cheaper than their US counterparts...

Yes, 70.3 mile / 113km distance. Not WTC branded events

Bit of a tangent: kids being turned off by sports by overbearing soccer moms and hockey dads is one problem. The other is that there is hardly any infrastructure for older teens that don't make it into competitive teams, be it high school varsity or equivalent in clubs.


Yes getting a bit off topic here, but yes - it all get's WAY too serious WAY too early - you have 10-year olds with Traveling Teams for the key team sports (Soccer, baseball, Hockey etc), multiple coaches, Strength Coaches, Technique Coaches, team physiotherapists, off season training and leagues etc . . . . . all for 10 year old kids!!

More on this (or against all of this) here - http://changingthegameproject.com/

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

On the cost issue, I keep wondering how much of a cart-and-horse or chicken-and-egg situation this is.

Yes you need a few more things for a triathlon, but you can get all of the extra things relatively inexpensively.

When I'm Race Announcing at the Give-it-a-Tri events that are part of the Multisport Canada Series in Ontario (these are very short races for first timers - s/b/r 400m/10k/2.5k), I see people with bikes they have just grabbed out of the garage - MTB Bikes, Hybrid bikes etc. They may use a wet suit and if they do they rent it. They do the whole race in a pair of tri-shorts or even running shorts, a singlet, and running shoes. How expensive is all that?

At the point of entry - which we REALLY need to be emphasizing, the costs are really not that much!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I thank my parents for the approach they took. I wasn't in a "serious" sport until I was 14, when I started swimming with a club in Ontario. Until then, it was just gym class and extra-curriculars (swim, xc clubs) at school, and during summer break did tennis lessons, swim and sailing camps, and a bunch of other things. While I've stepped away from sports at times as an adult, I always come back.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Sorry I am late to this posting but have been sidelined with shoulder surgery recuperation.

In Ontario things were actually very good for us. Barrelman was up 39% at just over 1,100 registered. A significant reason for the Barrelman increase was our U.S. athlete count going from an annual average of 75 to over 300 participants. We had partnered with Rev3 in the marketing of the race and it was a tremendous help in creating awareness of the race. To quote Fleck, "The Barrelman, may be the largest non-IRONMAN 1/2 IM distance in North America! To the best of my knowledge - No other independent 1/2 IM distance race has grown in numbers over the same time period as the Barrelman has! " In fact, I do think barrelman is now the largest non-Ironman 1/2distance in North America

On the MultiSport Canada (Skechers Triathlon Series) series side we were concerned with the profitability of three of the ten races in 2016. We analyzed our data and could see trends that told us if we dropped certain races there was a very good chance that the athletes, who attended those races on the cusp, would migrate to the others in the series. We took the risk, cancelled three and implemented some marketing plans to retain athletes by enticing them to the remaining seven. The end result, comparing those seven year over year, proved successful. The seven races (not including Barrelman) were up 5% and overall series total profitability up even more, whereas our main competition was up just under 1%.

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

really? i got started for

an old mtb - $0
an old pair of Nikes - $0
an used wetsuit on CL - $60
a pair of tri shorts - $40ish
an old Timex watch - $0
a race entry+$10 usat day pass - about $130
a municipal pool pass for summer - about $100 or so

So basically $350 or so - what a typical millennial pays for the mobile plan over 2 months.

Definitely not a trivial expense, but is it really something that's not affordable to the masses?

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

I did the same thing when I first started but did not use tri shorts, or a pool pass, or even a wetsuit. Just a race entry.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well, unfortunately I swam like shit back then, so a bit of practicing before trying a 1.5km ocean swim in the 58 degree water was prolly a good idea. That Rocket Science wetsuit was fantastic, finally replaced it 7 years later last spring after the right sleeve got busted open, what a deal...

But yeah, buying tri shorts for the first race was idiotic.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

You had more brains than me. My first race was a sprint in warm water, but still had not idea what I was getting into. Was in the lake in my backyard. I just about passed out after the swim. Walked up all the hills on the mountain bike. And walked most of the run around the lake. I was hooked to do better.

We both clearly have data showing one can start this sport for very little money, and even do it for ever cheaply. I know it was years before I changed from the free bikes I was riding to a "Decent" bike

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

John, it helps you put on world class level races!

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@rhyspencer

Population demographics haven't changed that much. Don't know about Tri, but 30 years ago there were lots of Juniors in cycling. Basically none now. Most racers are in their 40s and 50s.

I blame it on the fact that far fewer kids ride bikes, or are allowed to do anything unsupervised.

When the parents are not active, why would the kids be?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Parents of kids and teens are far more athletically active now than they were 30-50 years ago.

No way from what I have seen! So many could not even run a mile.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When I was a kid basically no one >40, was doing anything athletic. There are way more middle age and older people active now than there used to be. Kids did not get into cycling because their parents were, that's for sure.

blame the millennials. getting to soft on goals in the snowflake mentality,... i see many races breaking down to multiple events of duathlon/aquabike which dilutes the field, just so people can it have easier for them and they get a finisher medal, no care for time goals or OVERALL podium placement.

it is the group that must be reached out too the most, they have the strongest social media/ bar life marketing presence.

but i see the millennials participating in grass roots sports, such as OCR , crossfit, but you should also see the November project movement that has exploded - a free group.

it is one thing for sure, the snobbishness of some does kill the sport - the income divide with people on $10k bikes, etc. make it more equal, i guess uci road bikes only allowed that must be above certain weight

I got to not tri when I was unemployed and needed something to do that was cheaper than golf. I used a bike that was a freebie I had a pool and running is free. So it costs next to nothing to start BUT then you get serious and 20k later you have all the good stuff.

And that is the key point. You can do this sport for cheap. It is a person's choice if they want to spend big, like ANY hobby!

I put up a christmas display at my home for the first time in 30 years. I did it cheap. Now if I want to go nuts, well, there is no end to how much money I could spend. I am trying so hard to not go there!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Exactly. The previous generations didn’t have as many options to try sport as a hobby. Most adults were working full time and raising a family. Only the wealthy had plentiful time and money to engage in things that didn’t benefit the family.

Retiring/being fired in your early 50’s and training like a full time athlete is a modern invention.

Here's the counter to your post from what I see....I don't blame the least represented group in our sport, that's far too easy to poke at. Because to blame them is not solving the problem. Triathlon is a static sport....you swim, you bike, you run. You don't get to mix and match, etc., it's either full in or full out (read your response to events that add other multisport components). There is nothing really fresh about the sport, and partly because well it's swimming, biking, and running. (But that's why this new S/R format is suddenly becoming popular) There is only so much you can do.

But back to blaming millennials.....can you blame them? You mean to tell me you need spend ~$3k on a "entry" level triathlon bike (yes I know you can do tri on a 28 year old mtb and your dad K Swiss shoes.....we get that)? Or it costs $100 to do a sprint distance race? Or if I do race, I only get a handful of 30 and younger people in my race, and the issue is millennials. That's sorta misguided if you think about it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

if anything this demographic i speak of used to have a large share.... now having the biggest drop. perhaps it is the pressure that they get from others that eventually you must do an ironman... the love for olympic and short course is lost

As someone in the demographic you're talking about, the biggest hurdle to racing for me is entry fees. I saved up and bought an old P2c on Craigslist, bought various bits and pieces of equipment over the years from money I saved working during the summer. I do agree that it's a bummer there aren't many people in my age group, but anymore I usually race for the overall win in races so it's not that big of a deal.

However, the biggest hurdle to sport of people in my generation as a whole is that they think it's just too far. Finishing a 5k is considered a huge accomplishment. There is a serious lack of competitive drive in sport. Just my n+1 opinion from talking to people and being told that I'm crazy. People know there are sprint distance races and such. They just don't want to even bother with one of the legs, let alone all three.

One funny note. In addition to U-25 aged athletes I work with, I've worked with juniors as well. Back in 2011-2013 the biggest thing I would hear from juniors is "when can I build up to do 70.3's and an IM". It was weird, that was the #1 thing I would hear when I would talk to the local top 15/16/17/18 year old athletes. Now the top juniors are like "why do I want to do an IM".

But the problem with athletes U-18 is that they are basically in the sport because they are being bankrolled by mom and dad. Once they leave for college, they are sorta own their own and/or have to atleast "budget" better. And the hell if your going to get people consistently in the sport when they have college loans, and they'll be the "odd" man with their mtb and board shorts. I also would argue the U-30 category has never been big in the sport. It really won't ever be because the finances of triathlon.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think this is a big issue. No different 20yrs age when I started triathlon. Always a huge drop in the early 20’s as people started their adult life. The 40-50 bracket had some of the fastest people as they had already established some balance in life, and had cash, and could dedicate time to training if they wanted.

I agree that ‘blaming’ millennials or any other generation is probably a huge oversimplification.

Group training is the key to success for that demographic. I've seen it first hand in my "squad". I've got a daily training group that consists of 3 U-23 athletes, 3 under 27 athletes and 2 30ish aged athletes, and they have told me, the group training was one of the benefits they saw (these are 90% FOP athletes, 10% loving it for the "team" aspect).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I wouldn't be surprised if <30 year olds were the largest AGs in tris in the '80s. 1957 had the record for highest no. of births in the U.S. until 2007. Does anyone have full results from any of the early Bud Light Triathlon Series events to confirm that? When I did my first tri in '83 as a recent college grad with little money, I was mainly racing with guys like me, not wealthy middle-aged married men with super bikes and coaches.

I think that's the point though....your talking about an time period with the infancy of the sport, talking about events that happened 30+ years ago. How Mark Lemmon got into the sport at age 23 in 1983 and how Mark Lemmon at age 23 would get into the sport in 2017 would be completely different people. The 2 wouldn't even be able to co-exist, the sport/world/life is that different.

ETA: So whether the U-30 category was the category or not 30 years ago is irrelevant. Because the sport has long moved past where the U-30 can even thrive....it's been completely run over by corporate capitalism that is really only afforded by the middled aged people you mention that it is full of now. The Mark Lemmon of 1983 likely wouldnt even give tri a shot in 2017, and if your as poor as you stated, you'd be lucky to do many races.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

That's my recollection too.

Younger AG were at least as strong as older AGs.

It is just that we have aged, and nothing came after us.
There was no concerted effort by the Fed to keep younger kids interested in the Sport.
What has USAT done during the last 20 years to get students interested and introduced to the sport, except recruiting already outstanding individual sports athletes?

I think the thing is, you didn't just age. You aged and changed the central focus of the sport to an LC viewpoint. As the other gentleman said on the last page, sprints/olympics were out, and IM was in. And so it wasn't just that you guys aged. You grew the sport to where every endurance company wanted a piece of the pie, and thus it became what it is now......a sport only really afforded by the upper middle class and that is mostly made up of people that have established themselves in careers/families, etc., and are able to "afford" this hobby.

And I'm not even blaming or saying that's bad. What I think is interesting is that the 30 and under crowd who dominated the numbers in triathlon in the 1980's are basically now the parents of the kids who we are saying aren't doing the sport now, but need to be in the sport.....go figure.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

No disagreement with you Brooks. Just pointing out that young people did set the tone for tri at one point and have the opportunity to do so again in the future.

I hear ya on that. That’s why I find it most ironic,

The very generation of u-30 athletes who grew the sport up from the 80’s are basically now the parents of a generation of young people who DON’T want to do the sport.


Actually not ironic, kinda scary (scary in that this is my profession) and wondering how will it change?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree (with your latter point) that it's not ironic: lots of things are cyclical, and those that aren't cyclical always change. Older generations have always complained about the next generations being spoiled and ruining everything, as synthetic did, and waterboy does. As alluded to, the price for any level of equipment has exploded far past inflation, and the young cohort is poorer than ever before for a variety of structural reasons. At the same time, working the low-level jobs most do for more or irregular hours makes training harder. I literally had a nightmare last night about being told to do two long runs on a day when I discovered I had a doctor's appointment and lots of work, and I'm 36 and have one of the most flexible jobs of ever.

But come on, running had boom years. Cycling had boom years. Kids like to feel they're different from their parents; look at music and how it's changed over the decades (and before anyone gets snotty, your music, whatever it is, was considered trash by the people who were older when it arrived). Triathlon was in an unsustainable red-hot growth period for a while and is now cooling off. The sport is what, almost half a century old? It'll survive. The competitors will be fewer and faster, with better equipment and skills, with fewer races and tighter fields. At some point, probably in twenty years, there will be another growth period, once there are fewer boomers in it and it feels less like your parents' hobby.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

The only counter I’ll say to that...and no I’m not predicting the sport evaporates....at some point in order to trend back up, something has to change.

Price of bikes/races etc has to change or else no your not going to have boom years because there will be no incentive to do it. IE- if the young generation is going through harder “times” (less money to spend) and tri was already “down” when it was in their early adult life, triathlon won’t suddenly come into their radar when they are now 45, and settled into a career.

Because I think these older guys are showing, the people who are 50’s now have essentially grown with the sport. So what they did in their 20’s and was affordable suddenly stayed with them and tri has always been an option for them. That essentially Mark Lemmon’s Generation has been the top generation of participants almost since tri started. Maybe they put their goggles away for a period, but tri was in their DNA. Tri has always been an successsful option for them. And then those who hit 40 and did tri as a “mid life” crisis, great they can because it was so popular, you had choices to race. But if races become fewer and fewer those under 30 year olds in 10 years will have far fewer options to choose from to “trend” back up. So then when they have fewer options, they decline to give it a tri when it’s their “mid life” crisis moment.

But right now, under 30 something’s find tri boring/unrelateable and its now on a decline. That’s not a recipe for success down the road. That’s recipe for a sport for the few and fast only who are into it.


So I’m not predicting doomsday, I’m more suggesting tri is going to become even more exclusive unless something drastic causes it to change. Generation of athletes isn’t going to skip the sport and then suddenly come back to a dying sport and revive it. By then the options will be so limiting, that there won’t be ability for an upward trend.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am just 5 years out of U30 crew but do associate with them. One thing also to mention is the path to prize money. Open it up to armatures, no pro license needed. Many oly tris such as lifetime did have prize money. I see participation very good in Mexico for races as they even give out cash to age groupers. The Ocr/xfit events are offering money ... That is what will bring competition back

Something will have to change for another boom, I agree. My point is that something probably will - the market will shrink until some players dissolve or radically shift, some new ones appear (maybe a revitalization of the shorter distances, and/ or gravel, or whatever), and new life is given. That's what happens when sports (or any market) booms - there's a catalyst that triggers it; it's not just random spontaneity, even if it appears so at first.

I will say you misunderstood me when you talked about the current Millennials (god I hate this generations crap and naming them) not taking it up when they're 45; you're absolutely right. The boom, likely, would be the next generation down. Not their kids, for the most part, but maybe their nieces and nephews. And they'll think that our version of it, now, looks as goofy as the '70s racers with Scott aerobars and Speedos and all that.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Coming from a cycling perspective here, I've seen declines across all ages groups over about the last 10 years with all field sizes shrinking about equally. In my local district, at least, there are a lot of guys who were racing 35+ 10 years ago who aren't showing up in 45+ today.

As you yourself point out the changes we're seeing are too broad and happening too quickly to be primarily generational issues.




I don't know about that. One of the healthier areas of cycling for the younger generations is fixie crits, and that sure ain't for the risk averse. I'm actually excited this year to get my old track bike into a fixie crit this year. My 44 y.o. GenX ass is going to be sliding smoking-tires-sideways through turns at 35 MPH while taunting the kids with self-aggrandizing "millennial" jokes in the boorish style of h2ofun.

Kids gonna rebel against whatever their parents want since the beginning of time.

The u20 crowd is the generation that will likely shift the new sport of tri. People think I’m crazy when I say, but to me the big boom will come when legalized drafting (Mexican racing scene) takes over and it’s simply “go race and whatever you want to do, you do”. It makes it far more simpler (really no need for officials on bike) style and also the u-20 generation is racing that pretty much regularly now.

Of course that’s going to get a “wow wow wow calm down young fella” response from the old generation because it’s such a drastic change.

But tjay I see a reality in 10 years. Much easier on racers in terms of equipment purchases. What I think will be hardest on is the RD who has to figure out road closures and/or quieter routes, etc.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

http://
I agree. It would be nice for aquathlons to get a push too, they are low cost. None of the swim run style kind (stupid teammate rules). SD tried club, UCSD puts on aquathlons here and they have very good attendance. Now if someone started a series offering prize money, there will be a good reason for people to put themselves in the pain cave

Penny puts on I believe the largest Aquathlons on the west coast. She had USAT nationals last year. Great race. Have done a few and plan to do more next year.

http://www.finishlineproduction.com/...AquathlonEvents.html

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Can you admit now that Gwen Jorgensens Gold Medal did nothing for Triathlon participation?

Are we talking immediate or long term?

I've said all along the impact she has and is much more behind the scenes with numbers that you can't put a direct number on, and it hardly fills up USAT quota numbers....youth participation....NCAA numbers.....Before Rio i think they had 7 ncaa schools....since Aug of 2016 they've added 18 schools. That's 1 school a month, but no one on ST talks about that. No one on ST talks about the HS numbers that are growing and the number of HS teams that are popping up.

ETA: The impact that GJ has is not ST friendly, so no one cares about the parts that she's having an impact. They see that she didn't turn the tidal wave around and suggest that it's not helped. But I think that you were foolish if you thought she was going to turn AG racing around. Her impact is more grassroots style versus AG participant numbers based. If that means she hasn't had an "impact" from her gold medal, then fair enough. But youth and JE racing is exploding in the US. We have the best junior program in the world. We are sending more juniors to international competitions then we've ever had, and coming away with podium spots. Yes she's having a very good impact on ITU. Now of course that's not as fun and no one really cares for that on ST, and I get that. But let those 16 years old filter through the system a little bit and just see if they don't stay in the sport and grow it. HS numbers (non-draft) are growing and each of the last few years the youth nationals has sold out. 5 years ago, that wasn't even a thought.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Aquathlons are cool races, even though I can't swim for crap. When I was living in San Diego, I would love doing the TCSD races at LaJolla Cove. Great race and great post-race party.

To tie this into the U20 group, the USAT Aquathlon Nationals in Austin TX this past October were ruled by the U20. The first two female finishers were 15 and 16, respectively. The first male finisher was 19 and there were 5 U20 in the top eight.

My experience has been in Sprint distance Aquathlons, in most cases, who ever can swim the best, usually can out last anyone who can run well.
Now when you make the races Olympic distance, then things become more balanced.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I agree. Tri was the perfect sport for those of us who loved to train to grow up with in the '80s. I'm sure there are young people today who need an athletic challenge the same way we did. If they have found something other than tri I'm totally cool with that. If I was in my 20s now I may have ended up focusing on trail ultras instead of tris. If the % of young people who need an athletic challenge the same way we did has dropped, that is sad and I hope our generation didn't contribute to that.

The very generation of u-30 athletes who grew the sport up from the 80’s are basically now the parents of a generation of young people who DON’T want to do the sport.

Brooks,

There is definitively a pattern there. I do see that.


The question is, how can we change that? How can we turn triathlon around and present it as a sport that the younger generation WILL find attractive?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

John, it helps you put on world class level races!


Rhys,

Full disclosure as you, know, Multisport Canada and John Salt are clients of mine and you are right, they do put on world class events. Why? They look after those small details that REALLY do matter these days in the endurance sports race business. It's startling to me that many in the race business think they are still putting on a race, and that's all they need to do. They seem to NOT realize that their participatory customers are a VERY sophisticated bunch and they expect more when they spend their money.

Some things are going to cost a business/race more money to up the experience quotient - others will cost you nothing - the latter need to be well thought out for good impact. They will be different for every race. One thing I know that Multisport Canada does is just past the finish line, John Salt (Founder & President) is standing there personally greeting EVERY finisher who comes across the finish line with a hand shake and a personal, "Thank you for racing with us today". I'm sure that many don't even know who John is - it does not matter - there has been that one-on-one reach out and connection with each racer. And for the ones that do know, John, that is a DIRECT connection to the race/event!

Obviously you could NOT do this with a 2,000 person 5K race - that race/event would have to come up with a whole bunch of other things to make it unique, to make the day-of experience memorable.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I've said all along the impact she has and is much more behind the scenes with numbers that you can't put a direct number on, and it hardly fills up USAT quota numbers....youth participation....NCAA numbers.....Before Rio i think they had 7 ncaa schools....since Aug of 2016 they've added 18 schools. That's 1 school a month, but no one on ST talks about that. No one on ST talks about the HS numbers that are growing and the number of HS teams that are popping up.


Brooks,

This is great news, and yes, it does not get the exposure that it does. Reason - here, and elsewhere in the triathlon media its all Ironman all the time!!

As for Gwen - I think there was some hope that her Gold medal win would help boost interest and numbers of youth/junior athletes. That is a typical Olympic pattern - an indirect connection between success (Gold Medal) in a sport and participation numbers in that same sport. I know that we see that in Canada - but we don't win a lot of Gold Medals - so those Gold Medalists really get the full VIP treatment in the media. The U.S. by contrast, wins a lot of Gold Medals - so that dynamic may be more muted in the U.S.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

FWIW a few people I either work with or casually know have openly complained about price of events.

If you're kind of thinking about it, it can be a deciding factor. If the market moves just enough, a lot of those "maybe" participants turns to decided "no's".

Price and fees as well. There's only so many times you will let Active.com screw you over. Races are expensive and registration fees often make signing up a rather negative experience because you didn't expect there would be a fee or how high the fee would be.

I don't know. But I know that triathlon has lost whatever cool factor it used to have. I remember back in the 80's-90's, it was something a little counter-culture. Triathletes were giving the middle finger to organized mainstream sports. Just a little subversive. Even sponsored by Bud Light or whatever.

That's gone. The current top triathletes have no whiff of being "different." Great people, and great athletes. But not any more counter-culture than golfers. Back when TRS was funny he nailed a parody of modern triathletes being super boring.

Not helped that one of the biggest players in race production has become a high-end resort vacation company that happens to hold a catered get-outdoors day for an extra $1000.

The hard part in all of it is that is that it's going to take some balls by race companies to push for a change. Currently IM is the end all be all. Everything in our sport is geared towards IM. Even beginners are doing the sprints and then running to coaches "ok coach i've done the 2 sprints this year, can i move up to an IM in the next year or 2". So what that is going to mean is that race companies are going to have to see "big picture" and push for something that will go against what is currently feeding them. And that's a really really hard sell. To tell someone to make a radical change and potentially upset the 50 year old dudes that are filling what's left of races now.....some people would rather dig their feet in cement and ride out this dying wave, then go completely opposite AND IT MAY NOT WORK.

I know my idea is going to come off as hooky and "oh you always beat that drum", but I think the sport needs to relax on the rules. Relax on the sport having to spend $3000 on a "basic" tri bike. Cut out all the BS of finding aero gains here/aero gains there and simply let racers race. You want to draft, go draft. You don't want to draft, then you don't draft. Cuts out the arms race for equipment (people will still be buying road bikes), and get back to basics. Of course this is very very different especially for Americans. We clutch to this idea of "individuality" like it's their last dying breath, yet that same guy wouldn't care if he was caught on a ST IM draftfest photo "oh man you can't tell if im drafting, that's a bad camera angle....that's only 1s of time.....but i couldnt do anything about.....I was only doing what everyone else was doing....."

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

So essentially what i'm saying is.....evolve. Whatever the best idea is, let's evolve the sport. But again that's really really hard when currently the ones that are feeding races (40+ year olds) are the ones that are likely to not want to accept the changes and thus cause even more trepidation by race companies to change.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Muted? Here is my prediction: all this youth participation and Gwen's win will not result in squat for increased participation.

Allowing drafting would not result in increased participation....like someone said, millennials aren't doing triathlons and drafting wont entice them. Hell, most of the local races I do people in the back of the pack (and mid pack) draft a bit on normal bikes and many of them don't know what drafting isn't and don't really understand what the rules are...nor do they care. They are just biking along after the swim and cant wait to get to the run. What you are proposing really already exists at the local sprint races and participation has not stopped dropping. You are missing the mark.

And I am tempted to pull out race results from the 80's since i kept many of them and I started in 1985 as a 28 year old...if memory serves, 25-29, and 30-34 were large age groups compared to others.

The U20 generation now is growing up to DL races. In 10 years they are the 25-29 and 30-34 AG that will have experienced it already and looking around and saying “why IM when I can do that”.

Like I said I’m not saying it is the answer. I’m just giving things to think about and no one else has brought up anything besides “we are losing numbers”.

We’ve already discussed the 30 year olds in 1985 being in large numbers. It’s also the generation that has resulted directly in their kids NOT picking up the sport. Not placing blame, just find it ironic the biggest numbers in the sport has resulted in the next generation not doing it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

WTF does that even mean? Are you saying they don't count or you are forecasting in 7 years when they become "adults"?

ETA: I'll go ahead on record and say stick to talking AG participation numbers, because you are incorrect with the wave of youth/junior numbers in the US. And it's only going to increase with the structure USAT has created.

US has for the last 10 years had only a DL pathway for juniors. It's very competitive and has also created a high burnout rate from juniors advancing into ITU (they still do tris they just give up elite development pathway). You have to travel to select races, very demanding competition demands, etc. So the solution that was created was the "HS" pathway. It's a non-draft "team" oriented structure. It's the "age group" pathway for juniors. It will create far bigger numbers in the upcoming years then I imagine the junior elite/DL pathway because it's much less intense and the demands of competiion aren't there. You don't have to worry about getting lapped out, you can race for your "team" and you have a team atmosphere to race with and for. 2018 will be year 3 for the HS "championship". It's still mostly club level teams versus actual high school school teams, so if you live in an area you can form a team and race under 1 team. There are some private schools that have picked it up.

But again, that's not ST approved (most don't even know anything about). So it won't get taken into consideration. And will it cause overall numbers to improve? Of course not, this is probaly at most 15-20% of the population. And that's the funny thing. They get totally blown over yet in 10 years they are the ones that you will be looking for to grow the sport.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

The one thing you must give the sport credit for. They atleast are creating a pathway to get the next generation in the sport. It may fail, but it's going to give it one hell of a attempt to get more numbers.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I have been in triathlon since 1985 and I agree with Mark. As I remember 25-29 was large and there were many <30 participants. So I got out my old results and found some from 1991 and found a results book for a nice size local event the Tulsa Triathlon (I lived in Joplin Missouri at the time)

I think this Triathlon reflects typical numbers for a 1991 Triathlon.

Here are the facts

Total finishers 260

M 15-19 4
M 20-24 12
M 25-29 32
M 30-34 57
M 35-39 48
M 40-44 35
M 45-49 21
M 50-54 8
M 55-59 3
M 60+ 3

% of the field M <30 18.5%

And I picked a single event triathlon from 2017 The Minnetonka Triathlon

Total finishers 451

M 15-19 18
M 20-24 14
M 25-29 25
M 30-34 32
M 35-39 32
M 40-44 26
M 45-49 33
M 50-54 35
M 55-59 34
M 60-64 10
M 65 + 9

% of the field M <30 12.6%

actually the 30-39 year old are letting us down in participation more than they under 30's (even they they share some blame)

M 30-39 as a % of the field in 1991 40.4%
M 30-39 as a % of the field in 2017 14.2% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And as you can see the older age groups grew huge!

And my reply was when your generation had kids and then didn’t get those kids (who are now the millennials we talk about) in the sport. You are the generation that raised the millennial generation now. So I’m not blaming you guys just stating that as you guys grew the sport, you never looked for the next generation. For whatever the reasons were, that generation that grew up with the sport from the 80’s is directly responsible for the millennial generation that we are now perplexed why they won’t do it.

hint hint- it has everything with the sport/athletes turning the sport into IM and LC focused as you guys "grew" the sport.


That to me is the most puzzling....the people seemingly most shocked by tri participation numbers are the same people who didn't do anything to keep new generations coming into the sport...that's head scratching.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

ha!....i didnt know i was responsible for "getting millennials in the sport". I dont remember anyone "getting me in the sport" I did it because i wanted to. I thought it was a cool challenge to try and be competent at three endurance sports....if you have to "get people in the sport" it assumes they arent internally motivated to do it....and likely wont stick with it. They best situation is you do it because YOU want to do it. Millennials don't and I don't see that changing. Despite all the your USAT and College teams of draftathletes that are small in total numbers anyway....

by the way, I have completed 389 triathlons and only 2 were Ironman, (LC) never my cup of tea, Vast majority of my finishes are sprint triathlons that I have always loved....

You are proving my entire point. Your celebrating you've done hundreds of triathlons....How many triathlons have your son or daughters done, why aren't you celebrating that? You made a point...."you do it because you want to do it"...That's exactly my point, for whatever reason your generation's kids who are now the millennials want nothing to do with the sport. Your generation who's basically been among the largest age groups from the 80's to now, has created the sport that younger generations want nothing to do with. It's a sport that is filled with old people. And then you wonder why the sport isn't growing?

ETA: Which is my point...to make a change you need to evolve. And as I said a few pages ago, some of the changes are considered far to radical for your generation. The biggest reason for pro drafting you completely missed....cost. Draft legal races are cheaper for equipment purchases for the overwhelming majority of people. No longer would it be an aero arms race to "buy" speed that it is now...just look at the prices of an average tri bike; almost $3k? You have far better choices of road bikes at cheaper price points than you do for tri bikes. You simply get back to the more basics of show up with what you got, and get after it.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

What i see in general is the baby boomers was all about me rather than give back. I always wondered why there nevet were any other grandparents pushing their grandkids in stroller 5k races. Oh yea our sport now is only about the bike

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

My generation doesn't even want to race 5k's. It's not about long course. It's about people not wanting to do competitive sport in any form. Look at all the "fun runs" and the obstacle course races that aren't timed. It's about the experience and the Instagram photo. Plus you have to actually train for triathlon and that's too hard.

Which is the biggest point he missed for why athletes would benefit from draft races....Financial side of the sport. But for that generation, you guys have always been able to afford the price changes in the sport, because you are the RICH PEOPLE who make up this sport. TRI is the perfect mid life crisis sport for the lawyer/doctor/engineer/self employee because it's a great challenge and it's niche enough that it makes it special and "cool". ETA: It was "the" sport to do for the 40 something who needed a challenge, because all the other 40 something's were doing it. So it was inviting to that generation. Steve-oh just showed 13% of a race in 2017 was 30 and under.....and the solution to getting more millennials is what? Why would a 28 year old want to get into a sport that is filled with people that are nothing like them. Who wants to get into a sport where your racing a bunch of 45 year olds? But past generations always had many like them, so they could relate.




I just did a quick search of one of the biggest cervelo dealers....

They have 8 bikes in the under $3k for road bikes (3 different models)

They have 4 bikes in the same price point for tri bikes (the same model)

Again if you don't think draft legal races are the thing to bring them in, fine. I just want Steve-oh to tell me what it is. What's the solution? Because this is a sport for old, settled in life people. Now in the last 10 years and specifically in the last 5 years, the U19 category has really been plugged in. It of course will take 5-10 years for them to filter into adulthood to see if they stick. But we are a sport that is old, and when those old people die off, what then?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Wish i was one of those rich folk but..

It is not just tri. Look at golf. How many baby boomers play let alone young folk.

Lots of sports are asking how to get more young. Even hobbies. I play with toy trains. Who are the old folks going to sell their collections to. Or old car buffs?

Young kids are smart. They do not need the stuff their parents slaved for and then got laid off from their jobs by their kids.

Bottom line is most young folks do not have the killer work ethics. Whether work or hobby. They saw their parents get screwed by the company's they made. So why do the same

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

So then you either evolve and figure a way to make it work or you continue to have 25% of your fields 39 and younger....ie old man races. And when those old men die out and races die off because they lose people from the 75% category....you create even a bigger void because less options for new people to come into the sport.

And I'm only suggesting one avenue to evolve...I dont know if that's the right or wrong way, but I'm asking for more suggestions, and no one seems to have them. It also likely is a thing where the people I'm asking suggestions for also don't care if the sport dies off (I'd wager most people in this thread are older....i think very few are younger than 35....i'm 35). They've had their cup of tea and celebrations with the sport. They have no incentive to see the sport evolve.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I am old and want the sport to evolve. Reason why i support short course racing, dl racing and just get rid of the drafting rules

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well I am one one of those younger people, as long as I've been racing I've thought it's ridiculous that there are so few people in my age group. I think formats like super league are far more attractive to my generation to watch. The question is participation, and I don't know how to do that. I'm in the process of starting my second collegiate triathlon club. The first year of the first one, we were sitting in a booth at the activity fair, I had at least 50 people seem interested in joining. When it came time for the first practice, maybe 10 showed up and I think we had 4 or 5 who actually stuck around. I am proud of the fact that two years later that club seems to be thriving with lots of new members. New university and I'm going to do something similar next week, it'll be interesting to see what happens. There are more races in the conference I'm in now so I hope that helps.

Draft legal racing has some promise becaude its a bit more exciting, but the problem with that format is that the swim is so critical. Most people in the clubs I've been in struggle with swimming, so it's not really a good option for them.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. I don't want the sport to die; haven't even hit my prime yet. If anyone has any ideas as far as clubs go, I'd love any suggestions for gaining/retaining members.

I ran some numbers on the AG DL world tri qualifier in 2017 (i rounded accordingly for each %)

Male vs Female numbers:

Female 70 racers

Female U-30: 19%

Female 30-40: 20%

Male 122 racers

Male U-30: 19%

Male 30-40: 8% (30-34 was smallest AG of any gender category)


Here's the breakdown of DL duathlon nationals:

Male 133 racers

Male U-30: 16%

Male 30-40: 10%

Female U-30: 17%

Female 30-40: 20%




13% non-draft vs 19% DL within the U-30 numbers. What's surprising is that the 30-40 numbers had seemingly the lowest AG numbers within the whole AG ranks (not counting like the 85-89 AG, etc). Now I wanted to use both tri and duathlon DL races to try and show numbers. I don't know of any other well known AG DL race beyond the EDR races that are pretty much U-25 and only (clermont EDR races). I guess I could go back and look at the Rev 3 Rush numbers a few years back (that race died after 2 years). But that race had a very sparse crowd and my junior team and the local junior team took a good number of athletes to it, so it would be skewed.

So again, I'm not saying it's the answer. All I'm saying is that what is the other options.......

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

And to show you why USAT is pushing for more females to get into triathlon......

At the same event I just put numbers on, from the worlds tri qualifier they put on a "free" sprint race. It was free event because it was a give back to the community in Sarasota a month after being hit by a hurricane. I was at this race for the weekend.

AG Sprint "free entry" race.

Female U-30 category- 38%

Male U-30 category- 19%

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Swim in DL is only important for FOP people because AG DL races don't have a lap out rule. But let's go with that premise that you do need to swim more. That's evolution. Your trading in $$$$ spent on geeking out on aero bikes for hard work in the pool. It may not be the answer, but that's what it takes. It takes changing, it takes understand you have to change. You don't get to sit back and think/hope it'll change. You have to accept that what you think of tri now, may not be what tri is in 10-15 years. And like I said, that's mighty hard for people to accept when you've been sitting in the cat bird's seat for pretty much the entirety of your tri career. But I get it, why the hell would a 55 year old want to change how they've race for the last 20 years, when if they just kinda hold out for a few more years, they'll be out anyways.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I agree that this really did nothing for triathlon.

In order for it to have an impact on Americans it would need to be sustained and at least moderately visible over a period of time. I don't think that her win even had moderate visibility in the US, and certainly was not sustained. The last example I can think of leading to a change in participation of americans in an endurance sport was Lance Armstrong in cycling, sustained presence, fairly visible to the broad population of Americans.

Gwens performance while totally admirable has passed in the wind at this point. Totally wishful thinking if you think that would make an impact on triathlon.

 
Here is my prediction: all this youth participation and Gwen's win will not result in squat for increased participation.


The Gwen-Factor and opportunity came and went quickly.

I think as I previously noted, the U.S. wins a lot of gold medals, and triathlon is not one of those marquee or sexy events in the Olympic games like the 100m final in Track & Field or Gymnastics (which NBC is obsessed by). Consequently Gwen's win, get's lost in the mix. And then for completely personal and totally understandable reasons she steps away from triathlon to have a baby, and then when she does decide to, "come-back" from the pregnancy-leave, she comes back not to triathlon, but to running - so the opportunity for triathlon is not just lost, it's dead!*

As for the youth/junior programs - we don't know if this is going to be a "winner". That will only tell over time - a 5 - 10 year period. So you'll have to have some patience for that. In classic sport development, you want to have high numbers of youth participating at the bottome of the sports development pyramid. You know that not all will go on to higher levels of competition, but you know that you will have more coming out the top of the pyramid, if you have more at the bottom!

*It was a different time and era, but Simon Whitfield's Gold medal win in the first Olympic Men's triathlon in Canada, led to a large surge in triathlon participation here. Several factors contributed to that growth - but Canada does not win a lot of Gold medals, so Whitfield instantly became a celebrity and household name across the country! That profile, and exposure certainly helps. By the time we had reached the Beijing Olympic Games (when Whitfield won a silver medal), the Olympic Men's triathlon live TV coverage, was the most watched event on the CBC for the whole of the Olympic Games in Canada!!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I signed up yesterday to do the indoor tri organized by the triathlon club at Ohio State where I work. I've done it for the past 10 years. It's fun to race with college kids at age 58. I'm thinking about going to draft legal nationals this year and am excited about doing another draft legal tri (I did a draft legal duathlon in the late '80s and there used to be a draft legal race in the TTT). I'm thinking about racing on my road bike in all tris (draft legal or not) when my 2000 Cervelo tri bike frame finally cracks. I haven't done a WTC event or a long course tri in a decade.

So I'm willing to evolve. That being said I agree with Steve:



Steve, maybe next year you shouldn't start a thread about triathlon participation being down another year since you write that you don't see it changing.

I think as long as athletes want to do a race combining SBR they will find a way to race. If the bubble bursts on professionally-organized tris in this country, maybe it will evolve (devolve?) to low-key events organized by local tri clubs. I'm guessing those tris would not be draft legal, but instead rely on racers to police themselves regarding positioning rules.

I didn't do a search, but has anyone suggested that us rich old folks with lots of bikes and equipment organize a way to donate our old stuff to tri-eager young adults (post college) who feel they don't have the $ to buy the needed equipment to compete in triathlon? I would suggest we ask in the application how much $ the applicant spends per month on his/her phone bill and other entertainment streaming services. :)

I think you are maybe not seeing the scale of triathlon and what an impact would look like. Do you think there are 1,000 kids who are runners/swimmers that saw Gwen win and now plan to start triathlon? Maybe 10,000? I’m sure no one is talking about a massive groundswell of participation that hits the mainstream levels like soccer or football.

fyi, as a manufacturer, we've seen a spike in demand for swimsuit-style racing gear since she raised to fame.
now does this translates in participation increase? not sure, granted.
but we should be careful in dismissing completely her impact.

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Kiwami North America
http://www.kiwamitri.com
http://www.aquamantri.com
contact@kiwamitri.com
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There are a lot of routes to triathlon and you are making the assumption that us old people doing triathlons are part of the group doing them regularly since way back when. I'm only a data point of one, but I did 2 triathlons in 1980 several years before USAT existed, before rules existed (i.e., all races in 1980 were draft legal), before gear existed, etc. Then I went right back to running because triathlon was EXPENSIVE and time consuming. I paid $15 for a half-iron in 1980 and thought that was really steep. I thought about doing another tri in the late 80s but by then lock step pedals and aerobars were on the scene, helmets were now required and I didn't have the money for that. On a lark, I competed in a sprint triathlon in 1994...only my 3rd triathlon in 14 years, and that was that. Finally, I came back to the sport full-timein 2006 just before I turned 49, because I simply could no longer withstand the mileage I needed (wanted) to run to stay competitive in single sport. So now I've been at triathlon for a little over 11 years.

My influence has led three of my four kids to have done triathlons. Two have done 70.3s and one has completed an ironman. But none are in the sport now for the same reason I didn't stay with it in my 20s...too expensive and too time consuming. You can change the rules all you want but you cannot change this one fundamental nature of the sport...even if you go draft legal. Equipment requirements (even with a good road bike) plus entry fees are just so much more expensive than other options.

Meanwhile, the sport is evolving. XTreme triathlons have proliferated as Ironman became Everyman, the IM70.3 circuit and associated WC was created and is extremely popular while Olympic distance has shriveled, Duathlon is nearly dead, and SwimRuns are exploding. I look around and I do not see stasis. However, I am not against change at all. I am merely a consumer of sports experiences; and as a consumer I look at the market offerings and select those that provide the most value for me; just as my adult children look around and do the same...and they have all chosen the same sport I did at that age ... running. It is classic, simple, and inexpensive. My point is that triathlon will never be mainstream and the fact that the sport is retrenching back from a short-lived stretch of extreme popularity represents a return to normalcy and nothing more.

Except draft legal racing creates far cheaper equipment options. Like I’m not sure how that is debatable. Road bikes on average are far cheaper option than a tri bike. And let’s not forget a road bike isn’t really an aero arms race that led to the price of bikes like they are. Sure there are aero bikes vs non aero frames but a road bike isn’t designed to buy “speed” like tri bikes have become.

But if your telling me price of tri vs running is reason why tri won’t gain appeal, that’s not even a debate worth happening; of course that’s the case. But if your asking me ways to make the sport cheaper and still competitive- take away the tri bike and relax on the rules....

So I’ll ask this.....what other options can you suggest to make the sport cheaper that can be real world applicable. DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do? Cheaper races....ok where is this happening at?

So I’m just asking how do you actually make changes beyond saying DL isn’t going to help. If it doesn’t help, ok cool. But is that all you can say to help?

We are on 180 replies and not one single thing has been suggested except my DL theory.

ETA: I’m cool with DL not being the thing that brings it back. I’m not cool with saying it won’t work or won’t make it cheaper and come up with no ideas. That’s sorta pointless to tell me x won’t work but not come up with Y, when the reasons why x can work are things that help with the issue- financial cost.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Just a few comments:

1. The aero arms race is over. We are at peak aero which has been noted on thread after thread.
2. I don't think a change to road bikes would make any dent in tri participation. Most folks ride tri bikes like road bikes anyway.
3. I cannot suggest any options that makes triathlon cheaper that doesn't change the nature of the sport.

Triathlon is what it is. Just as yachting is what it is. Hi cost, niche sports that aren't for everyone.

You point is key running is simple let alone cheap and easy.

Swimming is a pain. Takes too much time. Too much effort to find a pool. And when i did masters not friendly unless you had swim genetics. Swim with a wetsuit, swimmers that we are a joke and have problem telling us non swimmers this.

Most folks who ask why will never get it. As posted only folks with top genetics are asking the question.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Excellent idea from another recent thread - http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ur_help._P6503881-2/. Definitely something different. Probably too boring, however, for all but the hardcore. I'd consider doing, but I'd have to buy a more expensive device than the Timex IM watch I currently use to track my training. :)



A variation would be to do a time-trial start tri with a club or group of friends. Ride at your own risk. No entry fee. Just for bragging. Not glamorous for sure, but it is cheap racing.

DL races are becoming a thing so what option can the sport do?
Where? Not in New England. There are no RDs in the area planning to put on DL races. I've done seven in the states since 2015. Five were USAT races and two were ITU.

Back to the point: A question to ask is where are we going get new participants from (or said another way, what s the target age pool). I started my athletic "career" in 1993 at age 31. I did a 5K road race in June and a sprint triathlon in September. I honestly don't know how I found out about that race. Should we target high schoolers? Collegiate? 20-somethings? 30-somethings? The older groups are already reasonably well represented (in a lot of races the 45-59 AG is a majority of the men's pool). I suspect a lot of respondents to this thread fall into this (and the 60-64) group.

My 16 year old son is not interested. Tennis is his "thing". He's done 5K road races but they are "too hard". I have two teenage nephews and a teenage niece who are on their HS cross country/track team and one even swims. None have any interest in triathlon (even though they know about the sport). They prefer Spartan races.

On point 2... Forcing people to use DL style bikes equals the playing field, so people don't feel the need to buy a tri bike. Road bikes are everywhere. The races need not DL. Just ban TT bikes

There's a lot of equipment that you could ban and save folks a lot of money. I'm not holding my breath that USAT will take that step and thus put a lot of companies out of business.

I think you should move the decimal 3-4 places to the left and you will have an accurate measurement of the effect.

Yeah, I think maybe 10 is the right answer.

They aren’t in a lot of places but the fact that you have done 5 DL races in US in 3 race seasons and 2 itu (I’m assuming worlds) sorta is my point. DL racing is a thing much more than any other discussion point. While it may not be in many locations and they aren’t, they are atleast at a starting point.

So my point was DL is not this imaginary thing that Brooks on ST is pushing on my own island. You may not think it is going to help and that’s fine but to simply say DL won’t work.....cool. Just give me something to discuss to actual solving the problem.


I think the next starting point is women. Which is what the federation is pushing (women and short course focused racing). Get more women in races and you’ll bring the full family into the sport potentially.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I think you mis-understood my point. I'm all game for DL racing. I love it and would love to see it expand. My point was that currently, it's primarily USAT putting on DL races (although there may be one in San Diego and another in FL). Based on my chats, the RDs in New England aren't really interested in putting on DL races because of insurance and course availability (they need to close or more tightly control the bike course).

Which age group women are you targeting? USAT has their big collegiate push, which is good. There are several women only races in NE that are very well attended. They provide a LOT of support on the swim, though, for those who are weak swimmers. Swim is the biggest impediment. My brother is a strong cyclist and a decent runner but swims like a brick. He does Spartan races, not triathlon.

Right but what I think will happen is this. Let’s say in 2020 or 2023 every region suddenly has an RD/Race that puts on DL. I’m guessing suddenly those same RD’s who say no now, *may* change their mind. No way in hell do I think races become DL in 5 years, it’s a process. I just think it’s a format that will become more popular.

I mean I get it, DL right now has to be an RD with balls. But usually it’s when those with balls go for it and then suddenly people jump on the idea as well. So do I think it’ll only be USAT races in 3-4 years, no. Clermont usually puts on an AG race with their EDR race weekend in March. I like that venue a lot.

The thing with those venues are that it’s setup for lap races because it itu course. But for AG racing you can do 1 lap venues if it is easier on RD’s...that will allow race timeline to go faster then waiting around for each race to finish.

Collegiate numbers are increasing a lot. Like I said pre Rio 2016 I think there were 7 schools. Since then it’s up to 25ish schools. I’m not saying it’s directly correlated to GJ, but if some want to say she’s not had an impact cus numbers still suck, I can showcase that the numbers in that age group are this. Was it GJ? Is it free money? Combo? So this whole GJ has failed to increase numbers is too simple of a statement when there are layers you have to look at.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It's not a RD with balls that's the problem. Draft legal courses will require closed roads. Permits for these races just won't be approved in many areas. This is also a large part of the problem with race entry costs. Cities make it prohibitively expensive to hold a race. At the same time, if the race is somewhere far away, people have to pay for travel and won't go.

I agree with you on DL racing. That's why I ask the "ballsy" RDs in the area every year about their DL game plan. I'm trying to do my very small part to move the needle.

But, this won't help the non-swimmers. If they had more duathlons in the area, I wouldn't do triathlons. But I like competing so I struggle through the swim to get to the run.

You are without doubt 100% incorrect. Just as a question, how much contact do you have with youth sport participants? Are you a high school/college coach? Do you run a club? Are you a race director for youth events? Just curious to add some context to your replies.

DL not tri or du imo has nothing to help the decline

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

DL races are going to be venue specific as to the needs. If you want to do an urbanish venue, the solution to a closed course? Lapped bike course. Go look at the Sarasota race course. It's located just outside the mall and a 4 lane road goes around the lake. So they simply shut down 1 of the lanes and leave 3 lanes for traffic. Clermont venue closes off the beach section of the state park. A course that is done at the IM Raleigh 70.3 swim venue could be done with "rolling" closures similiar to what bike road race events do. Atleast the races here in NC, they have rolling closure with cops leading front and back of the packs, and if you fall out of that "closed" area you are simply on your own...ie- ride to the right. So it's simply going to be very venue specific to the needs, and you can work the needs in a few different ways. The New Orleans course last year was I think 1 or 2 laps, so there are all kinds of different courses they can use that addresses the permit type of issues.

And I also said early in this thread, the biggest headache for DL events if for RD's dealing with these added permit issues and what that does to the cost. The RD's in the NE who aren't doing it, I can also guess why- because there is no demand for DL events still. 3 out of 100 want really care to do DL events, so of course it's easy to use the excuse of permits, etc for why you aren't doing DL events. To them, it's a solution to something that isn't currently a problem for them. Which is why I said, it just takes others who want to take on the headache and maybe the succeed and maybe they fail. But if they succeed and demand increases, you bet there will be a race in the NE....

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I have no idea how you could entertain the notion that Gwen Jorgenson has brought 1000 -10000 young women into the sport - to me that seems delusional. She does not get any exposure outside of our universe. More than that at this point it is a year in the past.

I am a member of a tri club. I have teenage daughters. One has raced Xterra and other tris. The younger 15 year old does road and mountain bike races. There is a massive high school mountain bike league in New England that has 600 racers spread across 40 or so private and public schools. Mountain biking is growing at high school ages around 20%. The 18 year old who races tris has never once had a competitor in a local or regional triathlon. She qualified for Nationals in Omaha but decided not to go.

Different sport - same concept - Both of my daughters are also high level nordic skiers. The US Womens Nordic team (Jesse Diggins, Sadie Bjornsen, Sophie Caldwell, Kikkan Randall) is the best it has ever been in world cup rankings and podiums in history but I would not believe for a minute that has effected even 200 young girls positively in a way to make them join the sport.

Most tri bikes can be converted to road bikes. Also they can be phased out, perhaps a points system awarding more for those who use road bikes. Hmm maybe we can throw wetsuits into this game

I'm looking up numbers for her scholarship which was started in 2014.

2014- "over 100 applicants"....cant find exact number.

2015- 111 apply for her scholarship.

2016- 223 applied for the scholarship.

2017- not sure how many applied, i can only find the winners just not total applicants. They also made applicants send in videos for their application, so that was a cool social media savy move on instagram (my juniors who applied were so nervous applying for it on "camera", lol). I would also wagger it kept some people from applying as the scholarships were for race directors/coaches/athletes. I had applied twice when it was a paper email entry, before but didn't want to send in a video blog, so our juniors sent in individual applications.


Like I said earlier with NCAA schools. Before Rio NCAA schools were at 7 or 8. Since Rio, it's gone up to 25 schools. Is it because of GJ? Free money has been there for the schools since the start. Is it because of budget and schools being initially afraid? Better marketing campaign to schools from usat staff? Could be a number of things, but I can just tell you that from when she won in Rio, suddenly NCAA schools tripled. She has likely a larger reach then some are suggesting and maybe not as big as the biggest number mentioned. Irregardless of whether it's her directly or not, but youth numbers are improving. HS numbers are growing as it's HS club/school racing is now going to be in it's 3rd year.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

There are time trial races where they have an "Eddy Merckx" segment - those who race regular road bikes.

I think USAT is pushing draft legal so that road bike owners could have a equal standing in a race. If you do draft legal tri bikes are dead, so are the costs associated with them. Too bad road riding is dying too so that pool of road bikes out there will shrink....

Usat is only doing dl because the itu forced them. If a choice usat would never do. No real value just issues.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Let's run with this. To keep the arms race from simply shifting over from tri bikes to road bikes we need to also ban clip-on aerobars, tri-cockpits on a road bike, reversible seat posts, Red Shift seat posts, power meters, any cycling computers on the road bike, disc wheels, wheel covers, and any deep dish wheels. Road bike frames must be entirely aluminum with box rim aluminum wheels, and mechanical shifting only with nothing better than Shimano 105. All road bikes must compete with Gatorskins and bike must weigh at least 18 lbs. Hybrid bikes get 3 mins deducted from their split and mountain bikes get a 5 min advantage. USAT refs need to be retrained to ensure to focus on maintaining lowest common denominator equipment.

But before we get to this stage, please tell me when you realistically expect USAT to ban tri-bikes.

I don't know anyone who bailed on tri because they couldn't afford a nice bike. People my age get that they don't need one to compete, at least the ones who will actually stick around anyway. Also, the used market is generally fairly good if you shop around. People who leave tri do so because they don't like swimming, too busy, expensive races, they're not good at swimming, or they leave for a single sport. Those kinds of things.

It amazes me that duathlon isn't more popular, considering most triathletes don't like swimming and/or they're not very good at it.

Yeah, I was just being facetious because I'm absolutely convinced that tri-bikes are not a deterrent to entry, and are not the reason why participation is falling. There are a lot of other issues that are endemic to triathlon as a sport that make it difficult for young adults and especially those with young families to decide to try it, and even more so to stick with it.

I completely agree with you on duathlon. I do them wherever they fit my schedule and have competed at national and world champs in the sport. But there aren't many to choose from nearby and most triathletes avoid them like the plague.

How many really race for a podium?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep