Thanks for posting, Tom.

It's time to hold reporters more accountable for their words. The writer should have used neutral words, not "accident."

Incident, collision, crash, impact, what else could work here?

Calling it an accident tends to excuse the driver, when no evidence exists that it was unintentional and/or unavoidable.

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Sharon McN
@IronCharo
#TeamZoot
Clif Bar Pace Team 2003-2018

I'm just gonna go out on a limb and call it manslaughter. Or perhaps murder.

Eta for the record, MI defines second degree murder as "a killing caused by dangerous conduct and the offender's obvious lack of concern for human life.". Could be....

Wow. 30 miles from where I grew up. Thoughts with the riders and their families. Hopefully justice will be served...

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"The person on top of the mountain didn't fall there." - unkown

also rule 5

I went to school in Kzoo and live an hour away... maybe they need to check the water or something b/c there has been some craziness of late!

Yep, I agree, this is murder. It would not be surprising to find out the driver was drunk. I bet the defense will use some stupid excuse like "side effects from doctor prescribed medication". There's no excuse. This guy should go to jail for the rest of his life after killing five people.

It is stories like this that make me want to ride more and more on my kickr in the basement.



Joel

I'm sure this is a very trying time for the driver... hasn't he suffered enough?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Well Garmin Varia and a new compatible cycling computer just went into the Amazon cart. If I dont stay ahead of this the wife might try and keep me off the road.

I feel the same way.

That's the new defense after it appears to have been used successfully in the Stanford swimmer's sexual assault defense....."are we gonna let 20 minutes of action ruin this kid's life"

the "accident" and "cyclist collided with truck" or the passive "cyclists were struck by a truck" phrasings really disgust me as well.

It was not an accident, it was a murder, and they were hit by a person, not a truck.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Yep, I guess we should just make all punishment times proportional to the length of the crime.

Former reporter here. You absolutely canNOT use words that would imply the driver is guilty before he has been convicted or you risk getting sued. Up until one second before the conviction you'd have to say he "allegedly" drove through a crowd of innocent people.

As a cyclist who has had my share of "get off the road"s yelled at me, and Michigander, I was heartbroken to see this yesterday. I take very small consolation knowing that he was apprehended and will hopefully be prosecuted.

Stay safe out there.

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http://mediocremultisport.blogspot.com

I already posted this response to similar comments in another thread on the same topic so forgive the repetition but I think it bears repeating and hope you agree:

There is a danger that stories like this make us think we're taking part in a hugely dangerous sport. I do think incidents happen more often than they should on the roads but I also think we need to maintain some perspective. Do motorists have these discussions every time they hear about motorists dying in a collision? Should they?
Stories like this, while horrific should not be the core basis of our risk assessments.

There is no such thing as complete safety. There's only the illusion, which stories like this can shatter.
We need to try and see the reality instead of jumping between illusions of invincibility and extreme vulnerability the whole time.

Yep, why should his life be ruined for 20 mins of action? Seriously though, would anyone be surprised to see this guy get nothing more than leaving the scene of an accident? It would be par for the course.

Just as awful were the words a doctor from one of the two local hospitals used when he was interviewed via phone on the local news station. He was asked about how bad injuries typically are in these situations. He answered that it's hard to tell because it depends on factors such as the driving speed, etc. But then he was asked about the recovery for the specific victims in this situation and said "they don't stand much of a chance" or something very close to that. The problem is that this doctor wasn't working the cases for the two victims that were at his hospital (nor the two at the other hospital), doesn't know the specific injuries, and isn't privy to the details of the crash scene investigation. I know that one of the injuries was a broken femur; another was transported to the hospital but is OK (unsure if that person is one of the four that were counted amongst those injured in the news reports).

We're not a large city and the cycling community here is tight-knit. For those of us that don't know details of who was killed and injured nor the full extent of their injuries--knowing that among those there's an extremely high probability that someone we personally know or are friends with was impacted--it was an offensive, insensitive statement on the part of the doctor. There are many of us messaging each other making sure everyone is OK, waiting to find out which of our friends was a victim of this senselessness, and the insensitive, sensationalized statement that makes it sound potentially even worse is infuriating.

My condolences to the family and friends of those killed and injured. Joel, do you use a rearview mirror when cycling? I didn't until last year because it looked geeky, but I feel more comfortable now on the roads since starting to use one. I don't know whether anyone in this group was using a mirror or if the truck made any erratic movements when it would have been visible on the road behind the group, but I do feel more comfortable being able to see what's coming up behind me and how each vehicle is traveling. I'm certainly not blaming the cyclists for this collision, but to cyclists out there who read about such an accident and say they are going to quit riding on the roads or drastically reduce the amount of riding they do on the roads, I'd recommend a less drastic step of getting a helmet or eyeglass mounted mirror if you're not using one. I assume you use rearview mirrors when driving?

I hope the driver is punished to the fullest extent possible.

It's early in this investigation. Comments about responsibility and/or cause(s) for the incident are less informed now than they will be once the results of the investigation are published.

I'll suggest that, as with any incident, be it an aircraft accident, military incident or public safety matter as is this case, that speculation may not be the best use of our collective energies.

Perhaps the best use of our collective experience, especially within this forum that tends to be a collective of more experienced cyclists in some cases, is to talk about ways to make ourselves safer on the road.

Again- rather than spend good experience debating the merit of ideas to be safer riding in traffic and/or theorizing about the accident itself, let's talk about ways to be safer on rides.

I'll start with the obvious:

1. Wear bright colors.

2. File a "flight plan" and let someone know when you're leaving and when you'll be back as well as your route.

3. Ride on routes where cyclists are commonly seen. Motorists may be more accustomed to the site of cyclists on these routes and traffic density may be lower while traffic is slower- hence the reason cyclists aggregate there.

These are just three low-hanging ideas. I know you guys have many more.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I do ride with a mirror but I have still been buzzed to many times to count and I just don't want to deal with the danger or hastle of riding outside very much anymore. I am doing more on trails on my mountain bike and using my kickr in the mornings before work. It is just more of what I am comfortable with.


Joel

Understand. This driver may well have been driving straight as an arrow until he plowed into the group.

I'm sure his lawyer will get it reduced on a plea bargain. Especially since he only killed cyclists. If it had been a motorist, it would be different. Sigh.

This is only 60 miles away from me, so locally, we'll be following this and I guarantee the cycling community will make sure this guy doesn't get off lightly.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I've found the mountain bike a valuable addition. I've never been to nervous on the roads, or anything to be scared about, but I know that on my mountain bike on trails, no car can hit me. It almost feels safer, which is funny, because drops and jumps don't sound safe...

The driver allegedly mowed down the bicyclists as if he were intentionally out to murder them. After allegedly killing and maiming 9 bicyclists, the alleged person behind the wheel ran from the scene oblivious of the fatalities and carnage he allegedly caused. Eye witnesses confirm that the alleged perp callously and recklessly took no evasive action to spare the lives of the cyclists and also witnessed the perp leaving the scene of a hit and run, allegedly.

This is just a very tough day for the Kzoo community. I'm local and the community is shaken but coming together again as one.

As for your suggestions, I believe we need to go even further to seek preventative measures. The cyclists were wearing bright colors, they had a mapped plan, and the road is commonly used by cyclists. Do we possibly have ride volunteers that drive behind groups with flashers? This was just one suggestion I've heard that may sound like a lot of work and not normal... but maybe its time we re-think the safety of how we have organized rides on roads. This was a safe road... but it can't save you from a poor driver.

Anyone in the area, there will be a ride of silence starting at 6PM from Arcadia Ales. There is normally a huge Wednesday Night Ride but that will be put on hold. There have been people asking for motorists to show up and follow with hazard lights on to show a connection within the community of motorists and cyclists.

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COROS Sports Science

Serious question... how does the Varia help? I'm guessing by your name that you're in Grand Rapids or at least familiar with the area. I routinely ride on Belding road and it seems relatively safe b/c of the huge shoulder, despite the high traffic and speeds. I was thinking about getting something like the Varia but I'm not sure how much it would help as I'm being passed by cars every minute or two. From what I understand, my Garmin computer would flash to let me know someone was coming and then the rear lights would blink to (hopefully) alert the driver. I'm not sure what I would do with the knowledge that someone is coming when it happens so regularly. If I was riding less frequently traveled back roads it might be more useful. As for the rear lights, wouldn't a bright blinky light accomplish the same things? I'm honestly curious to hear how this has worked for people. This incident hit pretty close to home and my wife, who was already nervous about me riding outside, is going to be pretty worked up over this.

Well Garmin Varia and a new compatible cycling computer just went into the Amazon cart. If I dont stay ahead of this the wife might try and keep me off the road.

I survived being hit by a pick-up truck in 2014, while touring, and haven't been on the road again. Maybe I'm just more aware of the number of accidents now but there sure seem to be a lot.Cars and bikes just don't work together so unless the road is closed to traffic, or it is off-road, I don't bike anymore.

Yeah my thought it as least if I am about to be hit I would like to know it. I have been buzzed a few times during the Ada time trials, that is a pretty busy road with a wide shoulder. But something to keep in mind with Michigan roads is that you do not always have the shoulder even if it is wide, the pavement is getting so bad that there are some places where you just have to take the lane due to potholes, debris/glass, or stopped vehicles or other riders.

Plus there are plenty of people that drive distracted and go all over the shoulder. At least with Varia I can see when cars are approaching and hopefully take a glance to make sure they are going to yield, especially if I am in the lane and not the shoulder.

Get a $5 a helmet mirror if you want to know what's coming up behind you. Cheaper and works better. You can't realistically escape off pavement into a ditch because a computer is telling you to! You could however if you see a car headed right for you in a mirror. One of these things gives you 100% accurate information. The other runs software coded by Garmin.

 Don't know for certain but this may have been a group ride from Alfred E. Bike. They have a Tuesday night group ride that goes down Westnedge ( The road where this happened ). I bought my first tri bike from them. Just unbelievable.

I'm nearly positive it wasn't as the AE ride was cancelled last night. This was another group though that rides on Tuesday nights. I don't want to speculate but I'm fairly certain from the Facebook feedback of what group it was.

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COROS Sports Science

^this

and all of the other posters suggesting bright colored cycling jersey's, lights, mirrors, helmets, high viz etc - suggesting that cyclists should do all these things to "protect themselves" is just giving drivers/society more excuses for victim blaming.

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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

I concur completely. There is a very small percentage of cyclists who will ever be involved in car/vehicle incidence. Life is pretty dangerous. Anything I do can get me hurt or killed. Or not.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

A mirror might help, but reaction time is hard to judge. It's always tough for the human brain to say "hey I'm going to injure myself on purpose". Especially when it's so rare that a car is actually going to hit you. You'll mostly give the benefit of the doubt and by the time you realize you're *really* in danger, it's hard to react.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if at least one of those riders had a helmet mirror.

Tom, while you are well meaning, I think that the responses here are appropriate. Much like when we hear of a shark attack on a swimmer, the risks of our our hobby suddenly become very real (even if not likely from an odds perspective) and we (I) place ourselves in the position of the victim of the "crime" (and yes, I believe very much this is a crime, not an accident), or their family. It's human nature.

Add to this evidence of erratic driving before the crash and the fleeing afterwards. Speculation is one thing. Putting 2 and 2 together is quite another, and which we are in my opinion entitled to do in order to help process this. We need to not think of it as an "accident" but an assault on us. We can wear pink colors and flashing lights and mirrors, but as noted we need to be more aggressive about getting laws passed that protect us, and ensuring that those that assault us are appropriately punished.

Hello Tom Demerly and All,

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/812035.pdf

Excerpt:

"Per vehicle mile traveled, motorcyclists were more than 26 times more likely than passenger car occupants to die in a traffic crash."

Granted that motorcycles are not bicycles ..... and many motorcycle crashes are due to the speed of the motorcycle at the time of the crash ......

However ..... dissimilar vehicles in terms of speed, weight, and occupant protection do not mix well.

Additionally according to the Dept of Transportation there are over 5000 motor vehicle rear end crashes each day.

Support improved bicycle infrastructure ..... including (physically) separated bike lanes.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/...elane_pdg/page00.cfm

http://www.bikeleague.org/...making-biking-better

The leaders of the Alliance for Biking & Walking, Bikes Belong, and the League of American Bicyclists (LAB) have decided to untie to make their voice and efforts stronger and more efficient!

“Leaders of the three groups issued a joint statement summarizing the outcome of their recent meeting in San Diego, February 13-14,” LAB just noted on its blog.

“We can transform communities across the United States and accelerate the creation of a more bicycle-friendly America by combining the programs, resources, and members of these three leading organizations,” said Chris Fortune, Chairman of the Bikes Belong board and member of the transition team empowered to facilitate unification of the three groups.

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Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster

We could start by making driving under the influence a much more serious crime. In most of the US it is only a misdemeanor. In much of the rest of the world it is a felony. If drinking at getting behind the wheel of a rolling 5000 lb. death machine had more serious consequences, far fewer people would do it.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

This is horrible.

Reading some of the comments on news articles about this story is a good way to get a reality check about the general driving public.

Sad, sad, sad day.

I learned to never, ever read the comments on stories like that

Exactly why I'm riding my smart trainer now. You can't stop the drivers who are distracted by their phones, drunk or angry.

Agreed. I won't read them.

It has been stories like this that have had me do 100% of my bike training indoors on my trainer.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

We had a guy driving a truck basically do the same thing here. 3 teenagers were walking at the far side of the road, and he hit and killed two of them.
The excuse as he was on ambian. So, walking on the side of the road is just as dangerous as biking.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nah, people taking drugs do not hurt anyone. See these type of posts on ST all the time.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I have a Varia and ride with it often..

I ride my bike most often in Vancouver where I am being passed by vehicles consistently. During these rides, the radar itself for me is quite useless. It's just a constant stream of lights. I will use if I am passing another cyclist and want to quickly see there is a car near to me (and shoulder check to confirm that).

I find it useful for me in situations where I am riding out on a country road and am only being passed sporadically. In those situations I will see the unit light up before I hear the car approaching. I will typically look back to visually see what is approaching me and move over to the far side of the road. I find it helpful in those situations and if you are often riding on those types of roads (I'm jealous!) I would recommend them.

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Team Every Man Jack

Ever notice it usually a pick up truck causing these accidents?

Ok Thanks.

ddalzell
Jun 8, 16 8:57
Views: 414
I'm nearly positive it wasn't as the AE ride was cancelled last night. This was another group though that rides on Tuesday nights. I don't want to speculate but I'm fairly certain from the Facebook feedback of what group it was.

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http://www.dalzellcoaching.com
@dalzellcoaching
https://www.facebook.com/#!/dalzellcoaching

I'd argue the opposite of this. We actually need more cyclists on the road so that we are visibly seen. While this story is most certainly tragic, it is rare. I would hope that the cycling community as a whole, not just in Kalamazoo would take advantage of the national media coverage and demand stronger laws & prosecution for drivers such as this one and those that do harass cyclists.

While I understand your fear, I clinch up too when I get buzzed & I pray that myself nor my loved ones are ever hit, hiding in a basement on a trainer is waving the white flag IMO.

Excuse me if i'm all over the place on this. This brings out a lot of emotions. We lost our 15 year old son to a bike- car accident. This is the sport I love and have been riding since I guess about 5 years old, I'm 64. I love the freedom it gives me. I don't care what the conditions are, i ride all winter. This is my time, a chance to think. I would not give this up for anything. This story really made me sad because I'm sure those 9 people felt the same way. Ironically I got an email from my local bike club asking for support to pass the 3 foot rule in NY.

  More info in....

"Multiple sources tell Newschannel 3 that a group of cyclists that calls themselves "The Chain Gang" is the group involved in Tuesday night's crash.
That group left at 6:00 p.m. Tuesday from the Kalamazoo County Health Services parking lot and the route would have taken them in the area of the crash".

They also released two victim names in this article. http://wwmt.com/...it-by-pick-up-driver

Not pretty, but they've released pics of the scene and the bikes (not gory, but your mind fills in a lot...). One of the photos is of a broken mirror. And look at the damage on the front of the truck. No way a mirror or a flourescent top is going to save anyone from this guy. Clearly hit everyone at full speed.....

http://www.mlive.com/...tml#incart_big-photo

"I have a Varia and ride with it often...



...I find it useful for me in situations where I am riding out on a country road and am only being passed sporadically. In those situations I will see the unit light up before I hear the car approaching. I will typically look back to visually see what is approaching me and move over to the far side of the road. I find it helpful in those situations and if you are often riding on those types of roads (I'm jealous!) I would recommend them. "

This is basically how I find it helpful as well. Sometimes in windy conditions I have had cars passing me at the same time I hear them. It will do nothing to stop them from hitting me if they want too. It can give you a gauge of how fast the vehicle is approaching too.

Debating adding a mirror. For the price it can't hurt to try. I don't mind the trainer, but outside is better.

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Brian

The 3 foot law is a joke.

They have it now in Calif and I have not seen it change one persons driving habits around me with their car.

Laws fix nothing.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Is this 3ft law a minimum allowable clearance distance when passing cyclists? If do that's a ridiculous figure for starters and as you say s law alone won't change anything. Here (Ireland), the suggested minimum is 1.5m (5ft) but there is no law that I'm aware of.

My thoughts and prayers are with all these families. I am heartbroken over this. They never saw it coming. Just awful! We have all had our close calls on the open road and I ask my slowywitch mates to be safe out there. Even being safe is not a guarantee when you see this type of tradegy.

horrific photos of the bikes http://www.mlive.com/...tml#incart_big-photo

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Calling it an accident tends to excuse the driver, when no evidence exists that it was unintentional and/or unavoidable.

First of all this is absolutely horrible news. I felt sick just reading it. It could have been anyone on this forum, who was out for a group ride with friends.


With regards to your statement, that I have quoted, in North America across almost all jurisdictions, what is truly extraordinary, is the responsibility shedding that goes on, and yes, you are right - it's starts with the language. It's not an "accident" - not unless there was some catastrophic mechanical failure on the part of the vehicle - which does happen, but is VERY rare. 90% or more of motor vehicle incidents are cause, simply and plainly by operator error and or grossly poor choices made on the part of drivers! Yet it seems the entire system, starting with the language used, through to the courts is set up, to relieve the driver of as much responsibility as possible.


Thus you have drivers, who have seriously injured cyclists, other motorists, or anyone else, and even killed people, get off, with statements such as, "I didn't see them". That's often enough, to release them of any responsibility. But isn't seeing where you are going, and what's going on, when you are driving a motor vehicle a critical and essential skill for operating the vehicle? Isn't that a BIG part of Drivers Ed, and the test for the Drivers Licence? Yet, if you hit someone, seriously injure them, you say you didn't see them, and the whole thing is framed like an Act-of-God Accident - "That's unfortunate, please don't do that again"!


The numbers of people killed on the roads each year ( in all incidents) is staggering, but it never really makes any news. No one does anything about it. And the mayhem just goes on and on and on!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I am an attorney who has represented many cyclist who have been hit by irresponsible drivers. In almost all cases the insurance company defense raises the issue of perspicuity and perception reaction time. Usually, I think the defense is a load of horse crap. That said, I am of the opinion the most effective safety device a rider can employ is a bright, rapidly flashing red light. They are cheap and get drivers' attention. The flashing may even attract the attention of the drunks and the distracted. Please get one and use it -every ride, dawn, dusk, day and night.

Yep, minimum

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Sasquatch, this is a gem. Thank you for adding it. It's particularly significant from you.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

It made the national 6pm Nightly News NBC

The three best-selling vehicles in the US are all trucks. The Ford F-series (700,000), Chevy/GMC Silverado (600,000) and Ram (450,000) lead the pack. That's 1.65 million trucks per year right there. You have to go to #4 (Toyota Camry) before you find a car on the top selling list. Americans love trucks.

I'm not disagreeing about the blinking red light; I ride with one -- a Dinotte in fact and it doesn't get much brighter. But I noticed about :50 into this video that one of the bikes that was hit did have a blinking light: http://www.wzzm13.com/...bicyclists/235907309. I remember seeing something years ago suggesting that drunk drivers are drawn to blinking lights and I've always wondered if that is true -- not that this case provides any evidence one way or the other (especially since we haven't yet had confirmation that he was drunk). Just kind of a question that's always in my mind. I err on the side of protecting against the more frequent distracted driver than the drunk driver, I guess, and use my tail light every time I ride.

Such a horrible senseless tragedy. My heart goes out to all those affected, and the entire community of Kalamazoo.

Have any of you ever come close to hitting a cyclist or runner who was wearing black, going in the wrong direction, running a stop sign, weaving? No? I guess walking on water is nice. Don't lump this driver with everyone who has ever had the misfortune of hitting someone. Certainly, many of those people deserve scorn. Let's let the court system decide who those people are. And if you are upset that insurance companies settle the claims so the driver is not punished, no plaintiff is forced to settle.

Finally, if you are an attorney, you know that the defense attorneys defend the driver. Not the insurance company. I would think you would get that distinction. If not, you may want to brush up on the rules of fiduciary duties to clients.

All that aside, your advice is spot on. So is this advice....get more insurance. Because not everyone uses those blinking lights. And cyclists are sometimes hard to see, and sometimes act like idiots.

I just hope the driver gets a fair trial. And gets convicted...and spends the rest of his life in jail.

If he was drunk he will get some time. If he tried to flee he will get some time. Otherwise, good chance he gets a pretty light sentence. That is the reality of our legal system.

I remember seeing this guy driving up lee hill right after his slap on the wrist sentence.

http://www.dailycamera.com/ci_23160300/christopher-loven-sentenced-home-monitoring-2009-crash-that

With the Varia, when the approaching vehicle is 200 yards behind you, the head unit displays a marker on the bottom right of the screen, and as the vehicle approaches, the marker moves up the screen. So you know very accurately how fast the driver is coming and when he is going to come by you (when the marker is at the top right). When I'm on particularly sketchy roads (without decent shoulder) and/or areas where I feel like yokels are trying to hit me, I often game the passing vehicle situation such that I position myself closer to the median than is necessary as the vehicle approaches and then rapidly pop over aggressively to the right just as the vehicle is going to pass. This gives me an extra cushion for drivers who are intentionally trying to nick me or drive me off the road, and it makes me feel a lot safer.

Driver name released

http://woodtv.com/...as-battle-creek-man/

“Up to the possibility of a murder charge. If there’s evidence he was under the influence of alcohol or drugs, operating while under the influence causing death is a possibility,”

So killing while driving sober/legal speed limit/valid license is OK, while killing while drunk/drugged is a crime?

I understand that is how our legal system works, but that is just really f*cked up. Our whole "traffic law" is ass backwards: protecting the bullies and typically blaming the most vulnerable victims (those outside of a vehicle).


Just venting. Carry on.

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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.

Glad to read they are considering murder charge a possibility. They will charge whatever they think they can convict on.

We have 4' here in PA. But the only people that really know about it cyclists, and the Amish. Frankly, I think the only value in these laws is after-the-fact for prosecution purposes in the rare event that someone is actually charged with a crime for hitting something other than another car.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

And his Facebook page is still up. Looks like one classy dude.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Here's the thing. Traffic is traffic.

If you pull out in front of of a car, you used poor judgement, made a mistake. If they die, is that murder? No. Should you get jail time? probably not. Should the driver be held more liable because the vehicle the other person is operating is inherently more dangerous? Running a red light, or blowing a stop sign, or speeding excessively, unsafe pass, is different.

Once you get behind the wheel drunk however, you are automatically impaired and negligent of any action. Worse, if the manner that the vehicle is being operated is wreckless, IMO it jumps to murder.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Things don't just fail. ALL collisions have a cause. A mechanical cause still goes back to someone - poor maintenance, poor design, poor manufacture - but someone was negligent somewhere to cause the collision. Things don't just fail without cause.
There hasn't been an actual accident in over 100 years.

I'll give a pass to the first 40 years of driving cause there were no accepted practices for the most part - just try to drive a Model T some time!

None of that is relevant here. 9 cyclists didn't "pull out in front of" the truck.

I think we're talking murder vs. manslaughter, not murder vs. "cyclists fault." Given that 911 calls about the driver's behavior started well before the crash, establishing liability for the crash won't be all that difficult in court.

Quote "There hasn't been an actual accident in over 100 years."


Simple Definition of accident

• 
  : a sudden event (such as a crash) that is not planned or intended and that causes damage or injury
  
• 
  : an event that is not planned or intended : an event that occurs by chance
  

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

Off topic from this specific thread......but lets just sue for everything.....no such thing as an accident......

Ehh, I am not sure that is necessarily true. I would say an accident happens only when the driver didn't do anything wrong, yet something bad still happened. If you are going down a highway and your axle snaps, sending you careening off into the median, I would call that an accident. Could you possibly lay some blame on the car manufacturer for a poorly designed axle? Maybe. (Assume for the sake of argument that poor maintenance was not the issue).

A collision caused by someone making an improper lane change, or a rear ending, or a T-bone or driving drunk, etc is different. In those cases the driver himself or herself made a poor decision and caused a collision related to that poor decision. That is NOT an "accident"

Let's give some credit in advance to the police and the prosecutors here. It actually is pretty hard to get a conviction for a serious crime (e.g. manslaughter or murder) arising out of a car crash when most of the witnesses are dead and the rest were hit from behind and did not see anything. The basic facts are that he hit them from behind, which makes him minimally liable since they had the right of way but anything beyond a ticket is going to be because of the professional work done by the cops investigating and documenting the scene and the prosecutors in court. They will nail this guy but it will take some work and, based on press reports, they seem eager to do that work.

The highest "murder" charge in Michigan I think he could be charged with is involuntary manslaughter (aside from, of course, him admitting he meant to kill or hurt these cyclists). And I think STP is right, it's not a slam dunk if he wasn't drunk or high on something. But it's not crazy to go forward with the charges if he was just simply speeding or driving recklessly -- a death "resulting from recklessness" is right in the definition. (http://statelaws.findlaw.com/...anslaughter-law.html)

Supposedly a warrant will be issued today, so we'll find out. Hopefully they do the right thing.

Meanwhile, they had a memorial ride yesterday for the victims: http://woodtv.com/...for-killed-cyclists/

Ill do that sometimes too. Basically strongly assert my position on the road to make sure the car does not think I will ride on the gravel if they want to pass close. Get them plan to execute a proper passing maneuver as if I were a vehicle.

Perhaps the best use of our collective experience, especially within this forum that tends to be a collective of more experienced cyclists in some cases, is to talk about ways to make ourselves safer on the road.


Thank you Tom.

There will be endless speculation on this, until the trial and the verdict. History has shown, that the rulings in these cases, are more times than not disappointing. Maybe this time it will be different. We can only hope.

As to your main point in this post - yes, this is collectively what we must ALL(everyone who rides a bike) do:

- Remain vigilant on the roads.

- Ride to the rules of the roads at all times. Yes, that means stopping at stop signs and lights!!

- Be is visible as we can be.

- Help, contribute time and energy to local cycling advocacy groups in your area. In Ontario/Canada we have - http://www.sharetheroad.ca/

- Use good commonsense when riding at all times. When in doubt, yield the right of way to motor vehicles and/or be more cautious.

- When riding in groups, adhere to proper group riding etiquette and protocol at all times

- Look out for one another.

- Report, through whatever local mechanism you have, drivers who are abusive, or who have clearly broken the law, and/or infringed on your safety in ANY way. In Canada we have this - http://www.roadwatch.ca/...etectCookieSupport=1

That last point may seem like a waist of time, but there are millions of us (cyclists) on the roads. If enough complaints/reports start to pile-up in Police files collectively, maybe they will start to take this more seriously. Keep making the reports and filing the complaints.

A big driver of the behavior of motorists on the roads, is drivers THINK they are completely anonymous - but they are not. Their vehicle and license plate number can link to them quickly and easily. Keep making the reports and filing the complaints.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If he gets charged with four counts of OWI Causing Serious Injury, a 5-year felony, that's 20 years:


Michigan OWI Causing Serious Injury: In Michigan, you can be charged with drunk driving causing a serious impairment or body function. This is a five year felony with a fine ranging from $1000-$5000, vehicle forfeiture and mandatory vehicle immobilization

Plus five counts of OWI Causing Death, a 15-year, felony, for an additional 75 years:

Michigan OWI Causing Death: Michigan OWI Causing Death is an elevated and more serious offense for drunk driving in Michigan. The penalty for this offense is a maximum of 15 years in jail, a fine between $2,500 and $10,000, vehicle forfeiture, mandatory vehicle immobilization and possible restitution.

(link to the law at legislature.mi.gov)

If he has a prior conviction, those five counts become 20-year felonies and the four counts become 10-year felonies.

In theory, he could be locked away for the rest of his life. If he was drunk, I hope he is.

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http://mediocremultisport.blogspot.com

Thanks Sasquatch. This whole thing has me rattled. We ride, mostly, on rural mountain roads in SW Pa. Many opportunities for blind hills. I'll get my light taken care of today and not rely on my riding partners' light systems.

Also, the Kalamazoo Gazette's more in-depth piece.

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http://mediocremultisport.blogspot.com

Ill do that sometimes too. Basically strongly assert my position on the road to make sure the car does not think I will ride on the gravel if they want to pass close. Get them plan to execute a proper passing maneuver as if I were a vehicle.


The behavior of drivers when even momentarily having to slow down slightly behind cyclists is interesting. There is something about this situation and dynamic that seems to infuriate many drivers.

Replace the cyclist with a slow moving farm vehicle, funeral procession, construction equipment, or whatever and the behavioral sane approach for the driver of slowing down, observing what's going on, and then when safe, make a wide and safe pass.

Not so with cyclists - it's like all caution and concern, for anyone's safety, most particularly the cyclists, who are extraordinarily vulnerable, is tossed completely aside by many motorists.

I've tested this myself many times when I am driving and I pull up behind a cyclist, on either a two or four lane road. I slow down, and hold that slower speed until a truly safe opportunity to pass comes up. On average, it's 5 sec. or less that I have to "wait", to make that pass. Note, I have not stopped. I'm still rolling along. The actual real-time delay is less then 5 sec. So for all that, many motorists are willing to severaly risk the safety of the cyclist, other motorists, and even their own safety! It's absolutely absurd!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Quoted in post 3 or 4 is MI's second degree murder charge language. Might apply here. But I am not a MI lawyer so would defer to them. They'll charge the most serious offense they think they can convict on, including lesser offenses

As to the post above yours I think I read somewhere that there was a witness on the phone just prior to the accident and sounds like they saw it as well

The 3 foot law is a joke.


Dave,

We just had a 1M(3ft) pass law passed in Ontario.

I can't say as I have noticed any real difference. When I have had the squeeze put on me and I have the opportunity to interact with the offending motorist - at a stop light. When I have nicely tried to explain the new Law to them, most often I am told the usual "F-Off" or given the finger.

What I am doing as a matter of habit now, to help proactively and to reinforce better behavior is to give a nice wave to the motorists who do, give me a wide berth and who have obviously, considered my safety before they make the pass. I would encourage all of you to do the same.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think there is just an ingrained visceral notion in many drivers' heads that cyclists should not be there in the road. Other motor vehicles, even if moving slowly are "normal" annoyances which can upset people but generally don't give permission to go crazy. But cyclists somehow, in drivers' minds, are doing something bad to them and on purpose. More widespread education on cyclists' road rights could actually help a bit with that.

I'd agree with your first comment, to a point, but I disagree with your conclusion.

The common current philosophy that there is no such thing as an accident is predicated on the assumption that everything has a root cause (I agree) and that all root causes should be eliminated (I disagree).
If you keep your vehicle roadworthy, drive only when fit to do so (not intoxicated with alcohol or drugs or too tired/emotional to drive), do your best to maintain awareness of what's happening around you and attempt to drive carefully and safely, you will still make mistakes and one of them may result in an incident. Were you negligent? No. you attempted to minimise the foreseeable risks but driving is not a risk free activity and never will be. Stuff will happen.
Similarly, a company manufacturing a vehicle to best practices in terms of design, manufacture and quality control, will minimise but not eliminate the possibility of a manufacturing fault. Faults will still occur, but they should be extremely infrequent. If an incident occurs it does not demonstrate negligence on the part of the vehicle manufacturer. By all means an investigation should be conducted to identify the root cause and avoid repeat occurrences but that does not mean blame should be assigned. In fact assigning blame in these circumstances is utterly counterproductive.

What is your definition of an accident? Will one of these do?

"an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury"
or
"
an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause"




An accident is not something that happens without cause. It's something unintentional and unforeseen. IMO the incident that is the topic of this thread was an accident unless the driver intentionally struck the cyclists (in which case I'd consider it murder). It was an accident due to recklessness or negligence and perhaps criminality if the driver was not fit to drive or was driving in an unsafe manner which seems highly likely (the fact I use the word accident does not mean I don't condemn the actions of the driver).


"There hasn't been an actual accident in over 100 years. " - Nonesense based on a reinvention of the word accident as a tool of Health and Safety people.....IMO

This. Can't make all drivers not be a holes, but the more polite riders they see, maybe they start to think we're all not a holes ourselves (and we do exist)

I am not condoning the reckless behavior but do you really not see any difference between the 3 instances you site and cycling? We are an impatient society. That cannot be fixed.

I survived being hit by a pick-up truck in 2014, while touring, and haven't been on the road again. Maybe I'm just more aware of the number of accidents now but there sure seem to be a lot.Cars and bikes just don't work together so unless the road is closed to traffic, or it is off-road, I don't bike anymore.

Ever notice it usually a pick up truck causing these accidents?

Yes, I have noticed that trend.

In my case, I was on a fully-loaded touring bike, the bags were bright green, and I was wearing bright clothing and a helmet, and in a narrow bike lane. I don't use mirrors because I find they don't help, I am actually more at risk if I look in my mirror, as it is easier for me to veer into traffic.

I was hit in Oregon, on highway outside of Bend. The driver of the truck said he moved to the right because there was an oncoming transport truck. He said he didn't see me, despite all the bright colors. There was no evidence of alcohol, or even texting. Not sure how you can miss a cyclist but that is the story.

He was charged with failure to yield to a cyclist. I was touring around the world for a few years and witnessed a lot of things that drivers do. It is the texting that seems to be the big risk, people just aren't paying attention, and it is going to get worse. In countries like Thailand, drinking (or drugs) and driving is the big risk but in North America, my sense is the distraction is the top of the list.

You may want to brush up on your reading skills.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I give the peace sign rather than a wave, the intent of waves can be misconstrued. I also think we need to be really careful to follow the traffic laws to the best of our abilities. Be the cuclist that is showing cars we aren't all douchebags, then call out the douchebags.

The driver of the truck said he moved to the right because there was an oncoming transport truck. He said he didn't see me, despite all the bright colors. There was no evidence of alcohol, or even texting. Not sure how you can miss a cyclist but that is the story.

Ah yes, yet another "I didn't see them" defense!


When I used to run on country roads,I would run facing traffic on the shoulder as you are advised to do. What I always found interesting and a little scary as I tracked cars coming at me, was how late, many cars would actually see me, and correct with a bit of a swerve to their left. I'm thinking - I'm 6'2", wearing bright neon colours, and running right at you, and you did not see me until less then 30 meters away?

He was charged with failure to yield to a cyclist. I was touring around the world for a few years and witnessed a lot of things that drivers do. It is the texting that seems to be the big risk, people just aren't paying attention, and it is going to get worse. In countries like Thailand, drinking (or drugs) and driving is the big risk but in North America, my sense is the distraction is the top of the list.

The whole mobile phone thing is out of control. We really let the genie out of the bottle with that one, and now it will be VERY hard to get it back in the bottle. Even here in Ontario, where we have pretty severe penalties ($500 and 3 demerit points), I still see many drivers blatantly talking on mobile devices and many more crotch/lap staring either while driving or stopped at lights. The message has not got across to drivers that, ANY use of a mobile device in a car is a serious distraction.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I'm only making the point, that not every time a bicycle is hit by a car, should we have murder charges. But certainly in this case, the evidence so far is gross negligence from wreckless driving and worse if he was DUI. Some seem the think that any bicycle car collision should immediately be prison time.

Please understand, I'm defending this individual at all. Based on the information given, the profile I've personally put together, is pretty damning. But I just responding to some generalizations that folks make, as though they are perfect drivers or riders that never, ever make mistakes.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

The whole mobile phone thing is out of control. We really let the genie out of the bottle with that one, and now it will be VERY hard to get it back in the bottle. Even here in Ontario, where we have pretty severe penalties ($500 and 3 demerit points), I still see many drivers blatantly talking on mobile devices and many more crotch/lap staring either while driving or stopped at lights. The message has not got across to drivers that, ANY use of a mobile device in a car is a serious distraction.

B.C just increased the penalty for communicating with a hand-held device to $368 for a 1st offense and $888 for a second. Repeat offenders will have a license review. People are so addicted to their phones (God help us if we miss a call !!!) that I don't see it changing at all.

I'm only making the point, that not every time a bicycle is hit by a car, should we have murder charges. But certainly in this case, the evidence so far is gross negligence from wreckless driving and worse if he was DUI. Some seem the think that any bicycle car collision should immediately be prison time.

Please understand, I'm defending this individual at all. Based on the information given, the profile I've personally put together, is pretty damning. But I just responding to some generalizations that folks make, as though they are perfect drivers or riders that never, ever make mistakes.


My sense feeling is that because so many cyclists feel such a blatant disregard, for cyclists safety, from so many motorists, that there is a feeling that, when stuff like this happens cyclists REALLY get their backs up - it's understandable.

In my most recent close call, I was nearly run-over in a round-about, when I had the right of way in a round about and the car coming into the round about did not stop. To avoid contact with the car I had to take evasive action, and bunny hop at speed up onto the middle of the round about. When I caught up to the offending motorist at a stop light 200m down the road, I calmly asked him what he thought he was doing back at the roundabout? He laughed the whole thing off, like it was some big joke. No apology. No acknowledging of responsibility. No respect. It was not funny in the least. Had I NOT done what I did, I could have been seriously injured.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

For the photos on one news site, at least 2 bikes in that group had mirrors.

From the photos, I can imagine what velocity was required to cause that amount of damage and kill 5 of the riders almost instantly. Meaning he probably wasn't slowing or swerving during the first 20 feet or more. The final report will be horrifying I imagine. I anticipate speeds of at least 60mph. Sounds like he may have approached so quickly, in a 35mph zone, that they never even had a chance to react.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

a couple of interesting/disturbing points about Mr. Pickett.

http://heavy.com/...ims-photos-facebook/

In January HE posted this on his Facebook page...hmmm...

two things.

#1 The ride of silence last night was one of the most touching, inspiring, speechless, sad, out of body experiences I've ever had the privilege to partake in. the Kzoo community is top-notch and has been deeply affected by this.

#2. He is being charged with 5 counts of 2nd degree murder and 4 counts of reckless driving causing serious impairment.

We will be stronger for this senseless act and ways to combat these issues are being taken by many.

#kalamazoostrong

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COROS Sports Science

Is it just impatience on the motorists' part or the assumption that a car should always have the room to pass a bike? It seems that unless they ride a bike, motorists have no idea how wide a margin they should give, and that if there isn't enough room for the bike, the margin, and the car, they're within rights to squeeze by rather than wait for a better opportunity to pass.

To me, this fits with the lack of education and rolls into the impatience you talk about that have led to many of the non-blatantly hostile close calls I've had.

I'm very glad to be wrong here. Five counts of second degree murder: http://www.freep.com/...d5f820e426986c8e0113

I am pretty certain that there is evidenced research that the "i didn't see them" is actually true

It applies to motorbikes.

Car at t-junction, driver sweara they saw nothing, pulls out and is broadsided

And its not people distracted, or "not paying attention" (they are paying attention but they are looking for the wrong things)

I think the research has demonstrated that drivers are looking for cars / vans / lorries and this is to do with the frequency with which they encounter them

So they make quick decisions, miss the biker and the rest is history

I appreciate that this situation is different and that there are many instances of rage against cyclists but there are incidents where people simply make a mistake, they dont see something they are not looking for and it goes wrong. I'm not sure what the appropriate penalty is but the defense that they did not see them is legitimate whether we wish to accept abd acknowledge it or not

Nice.

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king of the road says you move too slow
KING OF THE ROAD SAYS YOU MOVE TOO SLOW

a nest of cockroaches no doubt

Andrew,

I see your point.

However, on the work-back, then, drivers need to be educated to look for and see, the cyclist, the pedestrian (pedestrian injury and death is a staggering number to) and other road users.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Nice.

I think the problem is its not just education. Its frequency of events.

Its completely experiential. Lots of decisions when driving are sub-conscious- simply habit. What were expecting is a driver who, lets say hits 500 or thousand junctions a year to see a motorcyclist. The bike is such a rare event in a situation where ot matters, that when it does happen it can get missed

Part of the solution to this lies with car manufacturers and sensing and removing some of the burden from the driver to f@@k it up

I'm in GR as well (South of Zeeland, close to Hudsonville). I can't imagine riding on Belding Road. I ride in farm country usually toward Allegan (turn around is near Hopkins). On century rides, I circle through Grand Haven. I pick routes that have minimal traffic. I would guess on a 100 mile ride, at most 50 cars pass me. On my shorter rides, maybe 10. I really really really like riding the Barry Roubaix gravel road route. In 36 miles, maybe 2 cars.

With all that said, it only takes on car....I'd ride inside as well, but my ass can't take it. After an hour, it's so sore.

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_________________________________
The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Than you for being a voice of reason and common sense.

  

In this particular instance it seemed very clear what happened from the onset...... all this talk about rider safety, what can we do blah,blah,blah, made about as much sense as a a discussion of bowling ball safety to bowling pins.... This was a sick twisted m****r f****r who decided to mow down as many of theses cyclist as he could..... no protecting against that.

At best this might give a brief uptick of motorist vigilance in the community but that's about all the happy face that can be painted on this by me.

I live in Ontario as well. My routine, as you've indicated, is to give a friendly wave when drivers give me room. I figure it is a simple gesture of respect that may impact that drivers mind in a positive way. Also, over time with some of the habitual routes I follow, I have noticed an improvement in this regard. I hope this trend continues.

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Rob

http://www.robskonadreamin.com/
https://twitter.com/KonaDreamin66

I'm a cyclist with plenty - many years worth of - road biking. This event - tragic, horrible for those involved and their families/friends/loved one - is unbelievably horrible. But this happens *all the time* to single cyclists. The tragedy seems much worse when a douchebag/drunk/texting/evil MF runs over multiple cyclists in a group. But what if there was only one cyclist? CNN does not show up. Just another statistic. This is an opportunity - horrible as it is - to raise awareness as the majority of such attacks are less sensational.

For those who might want to beef up their visibility on the road like I am doing, there happens to be a sweet deal on Serfas Thunderbolt tail lights on Amazon right now. Red light with yellow casing is $24.55, these are usually in the high $30s.



http://amzn.to/1UGEgSx


Red, green, blue, and pink are also down in price as well now.

I try to do this as often as I can as well. I check my 6 pretty often when riding and as I hear or see a vehicle approaching I'll keep double checking behind me to see what they are planing on doing. As soon as I see them either slow down because it isn't safe to pass, or when I see them start to cross the center line to give me room, I give them a friendly wave. At intersections where drivers wave me through and give me the right of way, I also either nod, yell thanks, or give them a wave. I hope this helps not only increase visibility and goodwill, but just give the person behind the wheel that I'm a person and not just a bike.

This is a crappy situation in K-zoo. My hope is they make an example of the driver that hopefully will raise other motorists awareness of what can happen if they hit or harass cyclists and pedestrians.

It's been shown that *how* you look is the most important factor: scanning the road is highly error-prone, while actually looking (as in staring) in a given direction is far more likely to spot areas of concern. Your brain has lots of ways to detect movement, but it is more capable when the field of vision is not also moving.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

^^^ this.

This road had a shoulder, not huge, but it wasn't narrow... though the riders could have been side by side, early in the ride, 35mph zone semi-residential.

At least 2 riders had mirrors

The driver about 20 minutes earlier appears to have driven clear off the road, nearly hit a house and kept going. Based on Google maps, the road was straight.


Tuesday evening 8:30PM, light traffic, I'm jogging against traffic, just on the road left of the fog line. No cars are approaching me, so I'm on the pavement, not the shoulder. Suddenly a car whizzes past me from behind about 2-3' away going probably 70mph. The car was making a triple pass of 3 slower vehicles. I was really hoping at that moment he lost control and ditched it. I was wearing a bright neon green long sleeve shirt, setting sun to my back, sunset is 9:00pm right now where I live.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I believe that but we , collectively, need to stop this "throw the book at them, teach everyone a lesson" gut response to every incident

Firstly they're not all the same and secondly the punishment should fit the crime and drivers are fallible. You can not mistake proof driving and driving is not like the airline industry where every incident is an opportunity to share learning

Most people have half a dozen or dozen lessons, pass a test and get behind the wheel. We should be more surprised the levels of carnage are not higher

http://www.stickybottle.com/...t-killed-5-cyclists/

There was a study, which I can't find at the moment, that showed a large percentage of people are only looking for what can hurt them, so a vehicle of equivalent or larger size. So yes, looking for the wrong things.


Part of driver education ought to be walking and cycling in close proximity to fast traffic (some sort of controlled situation so no-one could be injured). And a longer, scarier version for all local/state police training as well. Walk and ride in our shoes.

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

I do this too and I'm of the opinion that this is the single biggest impact you can make to cyclist safety.
I'm not just a cyclist, I'm a motorist too as I'm sure nearly all of you are. I know how we motorists can get rather irrationally upset by delays and offences (real or imagined). It makes a huge difference when someone who's just done something dangerous or discourteous apologises or someone who held you up thanks you. If I've been getting annoyed, which I'll admit I sometimes do, this diffuses things. We don't want angry motorists, nor do we want motorists building up a prejudiced view of cyclists based primarily on imagined wrongdoings and attitudes, the result of driver frustration rather than reality. A little courtesy goes a long way to eliminating this.

I can't even count the number of times while riding on a low traffic backcountry road that motorists have passed far too closely to me giving me no room for error. Often times there are no other cars and they could easily swing far out wide. Other times, they can't wait literally 5-10 seconds for the car coming in the opposite direction get past.

I always though that everyone should experience a bicycle flying past them inches away from behind as part of drivers ed. Then remind them that the rider and bike is only 200lbs, not 3000lbs+.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

The damage to the bikes is bad, but the really scary thing is the damage to the truck. It looks like it hit a car, not bikes. So sad.

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--Chris

yeah and seeing the bikes with bent chain rings is horrible. It shakes me more than seeing bodies knowing what happened when looking at the bikes.

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2019 T-Rex Tri Series

My theory is that there are two factors. The commonly discussed one is 'how dare they impede me, I must get to Dunkin' Donuts, etc.' But as another poster pointed out, that seems not to apply to a farm tractor or other slow-moving motorized vehicle. I think there is a lot of self-loathing going on out there, we're on average a good bit thinner and fitter-looking. No solution to that that I can think of.

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Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive

If you watch the video that has been posted of the crime scene, at the 6 second mark the red flashing light on the bike at the police officer's feet is still flashing http://www.freep.com/...2016/06/09/85591460/ . I'm not saying I disagree with the light, and this crime has already caused me to light up my bikes. I never thought I would drop 500 bills on lights and radar for my bike, but there it is. It's either that or my family is gonna ground me to the trainer.

My heart goes out to the victims and their families. I see the Detroit Free Press is reporting our do-nothing legislature may have found enough energy to try and pass tougher cyclist-buzzing laws. I sure hope that happens. At least something positive would come out of this tragedy.

Sorry Sasquatch, I didn't read all the earlier posts so I missed someone had already pointed out the active flashers on the bike.

I think in a lot of cases this is highly accurate.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

This is absolutely true, there are times when very obvious objects can almost be completely invisible to someone. I am a psychologist and I remember going through this in school, although it was a long time ago so I don't remember the specifics. The premise is that human beings are cognitive misers, meaning our brains will use as little energy as possible for a given task. Our brains will take a situation and make assumptions based on experience, so anything that is different or novel to a situation will not be encoded information. It plays into the phenomena of driving home from work, pulling into the driveway and having no idea how you got there. We sort of go on autopilot. So, motorcycles and bikes could be difficult for drivers to see because they are not as common and therefore not within expectations for our blueprint of what to expect and be aware of. If memory serves, there was a psychology show that Philip Zimbardo (a psychologist) used to do that showed this point where they had a bunch of stuff going on and he'd tell you beforehand to try to pick out something specific like count how many times something occurred. During that, someone would walk out in a bunny or gorilla costume or something like that, dance around and walk off. Most people never saw the bunny, but when he made reference to it, it's crazy that someone could miss it because it was right in the middle of the tv screen. I believe part of the reason why drivers become so infuriated with cyclists is they aren't expecting them to be there, and they can feel stupid because they are difficult for them to spot. So, I am in the camp that people have mentioned that we need more driver education to make them aware and thinking about cyclists, as well as making yourself as visible as possible with lights, etc. Education will work because once most drivers are aware that cyclists are out there, they will be easier to spot. I believe cyclists and drivers can coexist and I ride the road as much as I can. I've seen it in our area where education has actually been effective and the area has become safer for cycling. The idea of a cyclist being almost invisible would sound stupid to us because most of us are cyclists and therefore are looking for them, but it's true. This situation is obviously different and this guy is just an asshole who was impaired, so who knows if he could see anything.

I think the opposite. Too many people feel too self important to consider the greater good. Just 1 example is people tail gaiting the car ahead of them through a left turn signal that's already gone out. Said jackass now sits in the intersection b/c there never was enough clearance to complete the turn in the first place. Said jackass is now blocking traffic from every other direction, all b/c it was more important to them that they make THIS light than wait the 4 min until the next light cycle. If any drivers ever put others ahead of themselves, and as another post above said - LOOK for what might be coming instead of glance to verify a car isn't - there'd be fewer auto issues of all kinds.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

With drunks, these can increase your chances of getting hit. When drunk, you get "target fixation." While staring at the target-flashing light-, you drift right into it. That's why you see so many drunks plow right into the back of police cars with the lights flashing.

Has anything been released yet about the driver as far as if he was under the influence of something, or motives, etc??

Nothing has been in the media yet about that piece. The speculation is that he was under the influence, but it's purely speculation at this point. I've been told that state toxicology reports can take 1-2 weeks for full completion.

It is hard to believe that anyone could run over 9 cyclists at the rate of speed that occurred and do it while completely sober.

I think the opposite. Too many people feel too self important to consider the greater good. Just 1 example is people tail gaiting the car ahead of them through a left turn signal that's already gone out. Said jackass now sits in the intersection b/c there never was enough clearance to complete the turn in the first place. Said jackass is now blocking traffic from every other direction, all b/c it was more important to them that they make THIS light than wait the 4 min until the next light cycle. If any drivers ever put others ahead of themselves, and as another post above said - LOOK for what might be coming instead of glance to verify a car isn't - there'd be fewer auto issues of all kinds.


BOOM!

So true.

I don't know what it is about getting behind the wheel but it seems to bring out an selfishness and entitlement index of 110% in so many.

I can't begin to list them all. All the little things that drivers do, that is really all about them and considers NO ONE else on the road.

Also, NO ONE ever admits they are wrong, at any time while driving - it's ALWAYS the other driver who is the problem.

This reaches the point of absurdity when cycling, when situationally, I will for my own safety decide to give-up my right of way to the motorist. I'll motion to the other vehicle and driver to, Go Ahead. I'll then get the finger from the driver. That's right. I'm ceding my right-of-way to them, and I'm getting the finger! Remember, it's always the other guy that's causing the problem!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This incident has had me thinking a lot about biking on the roads which I have been doing for over 30 years now. I think we, the cyclists, need to be aware that for 99% of us, we're on the road for either recreation or fitness. Both optional activities. I would bet that most drivers are on the road for something required of them, i.e. employment or appointments, somewhere to be, etc. God knows how many of them are running late for one of those activities so that may explain their impatience when delayed by a cyclist. This is why I find a weekend or holiday ride is so much more enjoyable due to low traffic volumes and, generally, nicer, patient drivers. I think it will go a long way to making my biking safer if all the bikers in my neck of the woods will be more courteous to drivers and yield the right of way when safe and possible. And, no I don't have a solution to the a-hole that caused this catastrophe; there will always be one-offs.

THIS X 1,000. I drive a lot for work and I'm constantly blown away by the utter selfishness and sense of entitlement exhibited by motorists in my area. There is a general lack of concern for, and awareness of, other drivers, pedestrians, cyclists, or anyone besides themselves. Like Fleck said there are way too many examples to list but I'm sure we all see it day in and day out. I'm not sure if it's a lack of education on the laws, blatant disregard for them, or a little of both, but it's on constant display.

It doesn't help that local police here don't seem to enforce the rules of the road in any meaningful way. The State Police will pull people over for speeding and certainly drunk driving laws are enforced to the extent possible, but I can't remember the last time I saw a municipal cop stop a driver for a minor infraction like failure to yield, running a stop sign or red light, failure to stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk (which is the law here), etc. The process of dealing with a traffic ticket is a PITA and I believe it would deter many drivers from breaking the seemingly minor laws that can have major repercussions, but the lack of consequence reinforces the notion that motor vehicle laws are mere suggestions to be followed or ignored at a driver's discretion. As someone who frequently runs and rides on my local roads, I'd like to see drivers held to a higher standard of accountability.

Lance came up to Kalamazoo last night and rode the Tuesday Night Chain Gang ride with about 600 people. Say what you want about Lance, but I think this was a genuine gesture. A couple of the people still hospitalized were able to come out and watch.

Julebag wrote:

Has anything been released yet about the driver as far as if he was under the influence of something, or motives, etc??

http://www.msn.com/...r-AAhr5J1?li=BBnbfcL

updates from today. looks like drugs.

Convicted of 2nd Degree Murder and sentence to 40-years in prison. LINK

Seems like a lot until you do the math and realize that it’s just 8 years per cyclist. He should have gotten life without possibility of parole

"Charles Pickett Jr. apologized Monday and said he would give his own life for the people who were killed and injured. But a judge called his plea "woefully inadequate.""


Even so, I'm sure nobody would object if the judge took him up on his offer.

Seems like a lot until you do the math and realize that it’s just 8 years per cyclist. He should have gotten life without possibility of parole //

Did you see the picture of the dude? He will be lucky to serve out one of those 8 year sentences, let alone all of them. He got life, make no mistake about it..

Yeah the guy ain't going to last 40 years in prison.

He wouldn't have lasted 8 years on the outside from the looks of him. The morbidly obese dont have a good track record of long or even reasonable life spans.