It's a free capitalist world, so its all fair game. This scenario exists in every region, but I think in your region there is no team EMJ MOP crew and BOP crew, just fast guys. I like it better when the teams have a cross section of athletes of all abilities. That's just a personal thing. Just seems more inclusive. Again, its a free world for anyone to get their message out. I kinda like out team Endurance nation does it. Athletes of all abilities, and sometimes they get a bunch of podiums too, but that's just a subset of the team.

True, but while it's a free world, I think there's something disingenous about paying and sponsoring high level athletes who are at the minimum, borderline elite, to crush the AG sections just to get your message out. I disagree that most of these same athletes would be all there sweeping the podiums otherwise - I actually looked for some of them and they def wouldn't all be there at the same time without the sponsor.

I feel that paying for race performance is more in the line of pro/elites and if you're recruiting folks fast enough to race in this division, that's where they should be, not cherrypicking the AGers - if it's a regional team like "local tri club", ok, fair game, but if you're selling a product, I feel that they shouldn't imbalance the AG division by slotting all their fast racers (who otherwise wouldn't even be there if they weren't sponsored to go there) into it. To me, that doesn't symbolize fair play in the AG category.

Just curious how you all would feel about this situation I've run into in previous years (note - I don't mean this year per se as I haven't raced much this year.)

I did 3 local triathlons last year, and they were well attended. I think 2 of them sold out before race day, if not all 3. Well run events, pretty competitive, with lots of very experienced folks showing up but also a wide range of ability.

At all 3 events, the AG podiums for every category from M<25 to M<45 were heavily overrepresented, if not outright swept by a particular 'team'. I normally have no problem with this, but in this case, this team was all sponsored by one commericial product, which was clearly and obviously emblazoned on their matching team kit. And everyone on the team was fast - it wasn't like a more inclusive commerical team where there are both elites but also MOP AGers - this team was clearly aimed to recruit podium-worthy triathletes (I found their website, which seems to clearly suggest that. I'm not going to mention them as I do NOT intend to and do not think this is a place for a company witch hunt, so please don't use this thread to try and hunt them down in public.)

I'm not one to raise a big schtick over the podium as I'm nowhere near contention for the overall at these races and can barely creep onto the AG podium myself, but there was something unsettling to me about seeing almost all the AG spots at every single race I did, nearly swept by the same commercially-sponsored venture, even if the guys on the team aren't being paid to race.

I guess it just felt to me kind of unsportmanlike to recruit the fastest racers from the region, give them perks to show up to represent your product at the race, and then crush the AGers as opposing to racing elite/pro, as I'd be most of those team racers wouldn't even be there if they weren't sponsored to do so.

Anyway, just wondering out loud about it.

In general, the more companies that support triathlon the better. The more people that do triathlon the better. Fwiw, I highly doubt they are being paid to race, but maybe the receive some travel stipends or reimbursed entries. I can assure you none of these people are qualified to be professional, I am not even qualified IMO and I have 9 pro podiums to my name.

Take a step back, do you want these people to have travel to only big races, where they are going to be rocked (disenchanted) and have to pay for travel with no stipends versus staying close to home, having fun, and racing local?

Just curious how you all would feel about this situation I've run into in previous years (note - I don't mean this year per se as I haven't raced much this year.)

I did 3 local triathlons last year, and they were well attended. I think 2 of them sold out before race day, if not all 3. Well run events, pretty competitive, with lots of very experienced folks showing up but also a wide range of ability.

At all 3 events, the AG podiums for every category from M<25 to M<45 were heavily overrepresented, if not outright swept by a particular 'team'. I normally have no problem with this, but in this case, this team was all sponsored by one commericial product, which was clearly and obviously emblazoned on their matching team kit. And everyone on the team was fast - it wasn't like a more inclusive commerical team where there are both elites but also MOP AGers - this team was clearly aimed to recruit podium-worthy triathletes (I found their website, which seems to clearly suggest that. I'm not going to mention them as I do NOT intend to and do not think this is a place for a company witch hunt, so please don't use this thread to try and hunt them down in public.)

I'm not one to raise a big schtick over the podium as I'm nowhere near contention for the overall at these races and can barely creep onto the AG podium myself, but there was something unsettling to me about seeing almost all the AG spots at every single race I did, nearly swept by the same commercially-sponsored venture, even if the guys on the team aren't being paid to race.

I guess it just felt to me kind of unsportmanlike to recruit the fastest racers from the region, give them perks to show up to represent your product at the race, and then crush the AGers as opposing to racing elite/pro, as I'd be most of those team racers wouldn't even be there if they weren't sponsored to do so.

Anyway, just wondering out loud about it.

If I understand you correctly, a team is sponsored by a product and this team is dominating in your area. But you don't think they'd be at the races without the sponsorship. How do you know this?

The better the racers that show up for a race, the better potential for higher USAT ranking scores. I would much rather be last in a race getting pulled by a bunch of
studly athletes, that be overall first any day. Getting on the podium is no big deal since no way are most of the local racers there studs.

not cherrypicking the AGers - if it's a regional team like "local tri club", ok, fair game, but if you're selling a product.

First off, a"local tri club" is still a product. You may disagree with that but it is still a product. Now it may not be a commercially available product but I don't think that matters. And I don't understand this "cherrypicking" either. Are you saying you want to race the softest field possible? Don't you want to race great athletes? Also, it is not like these athletes are ringers, are they flying in from the other side of the country to do these races on a regular basis? Have you talked to the RDs about it and got their perspective?

If I wanted to get crushed by pro/elites by racing the 'fastest people possible', I'd enter the elite divison (I can't anyway, I"m too slow!) and get crushed.

the real question is why are you sticking around for awards as a MOP age grouper? shouldn't you be at the beer tent, or sitting next to your cooler with an ice cold 6 pack?

this post makes little sense. i'm a FOP guy at some local races and back of the front/front of the middle pack at IM branded races. if anything, i should be more pissed than you about "elite squads" coming and rocking a race. i'm not though. you go to a race not knowing who is showing up. that's kind of the fun of it. in the end, you can only race against yourself. if you go out there, put out your absolute best effort and are beaten, then you need to HTFU and train harder/better, or wish you had better parents.

john

Nice way to make this a focus on your awesomeness

Nice way to make this a focus on your awesomeness

And this would be different than any other reply Dave has ever made HOW?

If I wanted to get crushed by pro/elites by racing the 'fastest people possible', I'd enter the elite divison (I can't anyway, I"m too slow!) and get crushed.

People give a lot of lip service to 'racing the fastest people possible', but for the majority of us AGers, that's just not a recipe for enjoyment. Elites are so fast that I don't even see them on the race course, and the BOPers are so slow that similarly I don't see them.

And if I wanted to just race against "team sponsored", I'd rather sign up in a specific race to compete specifically against team sponsored. If I enter my local tri, I'd much prefer that it would be representative of a typical local tri. Now, if all local tris were dominated by 'team sponsored', then ok, that's the new reality and tough (competitive cycling is like this as people have suggested above). But when the vast majority of tris are NOT dominated by 'team sponsored', but all the ones in my local area are, it gives grounds to at least consider whether something is off.

One of the main joys of smaller local tris for us middling AGers, is yes, the fields are softer, so we have a chance to pass and be passed, and get that thrill of excitement as you hammer toward the chute, and even wonder if you're lucky enough that day to creep onto the podium, or just better your AG placement from prior years especially against 'rivals' from prior years who might be in the same race. It's a somewhat different consideration than a strong pro triathlete who would be bored racing soft local fields, and who really needs to challenge themselves against the best of the best.

So the answer as an AGer to your question "don't you want to race great athletes?", my honest answer is really NO, I don't. I have no business racing them! Craig Alexander raced Vineman 70.3 two years ago when I did it and even my non-triathletes friends would have a good laugh if I even said "I raced Craig Alexander at Vineman!" because that's so far from reality that it's ludicrous. I enter races to compete against similar-abilities folks, and see how my fitness stacks up against a field of competitors on local,regional, or national levels. I definitely am NOT remotely, or ever considering racing "great" or even "good" athletes - that's already out of my league, and in fact I hope there are not so many great ones that I get left all alone on the course! (Happens to me at times, as I'm sometimes too fast for the MOP crew but so far behind the podium guys that I'm stuck in 'no-mans-land' during a race, all by myself.)

Ehh, take it for what it is...they're fast, good for them. Now it's debatable I'm sure, if some of them should be racing in the Elite division if there was one. Until there is a category system like in bike racing there is no way to really enforce that. Sounds like your a little ticked or pissed, but use it, get out there and get faster and kick their butts!

Some companies want to promote sport and active lifestyles, mine is actually a sponsor for most Ironman races and a whole bunch of others as well. I think it's great and I wish they would promote more within the company itself to develop more amateurs. I'd love to see us sweep a podium!

I see your point about the commercial flag flying and as I said it is a capitalistic world and it is allowed even though it might feel over the top. I agree if a local team that has a cross section of all speeds takes a bunch of podiums then that seems like a natural outcome of people happening to live there. I can assure you if the team you speak of (I assume you are talking EMJ so I am going to just say it) came of Quebec or Ontario, they would not sweep. We have plenty of fast guys just as fast or faster and they are not all stacked in one regional commercial team.

Too bad you didn't have the balls to call out Team Every Man Jack while you were calling them out. You clearly have no idea what the hell you are talking about. The team is local to the Bay Area. If you are too, then like me, you'll see them a lot of races including local ones. If you get beat by them, too bad. So what. Why come one here and cast aspersions on them and not even have the balls to name them?

Rich Viola kicks my ass in every race he shows up to. He is in my age group and he is fast as hell. I don't whine about it. I do this for me and I have fun anyway. He also makes a great product that I buy.

But the team is not a shill for the product. Do you have proof of the race history of each of these members to be able to say that they wouldn't be doing these races otherwise? I doubt you do.

Do you have proof that the team is paying the members to show up to races? I doubt you do.

Do you have any proof for your statement that they are just trying to get their message out? And what is the message? Our deodorant smells good? I take it you've never talk to anyone of these members to see that they're being paid to show up.

Do you even know any of these people to be able to say they don't "train like an AGer" whatever the hell that means.

Getting perks, getting free race entries, free transportation, definitely significant free additional perks in training, showing up only because their sponsor told them too, ... These are all direct quotes from you and it sounds like total crap.

I'm in the same age group as you. I don't whine when I get beat. I train and race to the best of my ability and try to be in constant improvement.

But I'm sure you're otherwise I really nice guy in spite of this really dumb post.

+1 on this post. It's obvious which team he's referencing and i echo your statements. Just a bunch of regular Joe's that happen to be good at triathlon and show up to the same races to race against their buddies. These guys are paying to race just like everyone else. Complete non issue....

Triathlon teams are lame, generally filled by look at me I am special types who are not that special

Y I knew this would come down to calling me a whiner. That's OK though - my points stand and if I'm honest to say id rather race less fast people who are near my ability level rather than get dropped cold by !uch faster racers, and you think that's weak, more power to you.

Y I knew this would come down to calling me a whiner. That's OK though - my points stand and if I'm honest to say id rather race less fast people who are near my ability level rather than get dropped cold by !uch faster racers, and you think that's weak, more power to you.

golly gee, i got nothing to say so.......ok, one thing.....more time training-less time on slowtwitch?

Y I knew this would come down to calling me a whiner. That's OK though - my points stand and if I'm honest to say id rather race less fast people who are near my ability level rather than get dropped cold by !uch faster racers, and you think that's weak, more power to you.

Because it probaly took them doing a PR effort to beat some of my athletes,.

Actually, your point doesn't stand. In fact you pretty much blew up your own point by saying you'd rather race slower people.

You're being called a whiner because the point you're trying to make is nonsense. If you'd rather "race" people more like you, then that's not "racing." You should stick to fun runs.

At the end of the day you are competing against yourself. You have seem to lost sight of that.

You're misinterpreting.

My post pretty clearly says and means I want to race people near my ability that I can actually compete against. If you want to interpret that as only racing people I can beat, that's not what I meant - I clearly meant I'd rather race slower people than pro/elites like Thomas Gerlach or Craig Alexander, who I'm obviously not even racing against in reality anyway even if we're in the same race.

And my own performance/ability has little to do with this, even though I fully expected 100% that STers would pretty much come down hard on me as a whiner and someone who's just out to win soft fields. Anyone who's' done tri for like 10+ years like me knows where they stand, regardless of whether they win, podium, or come in dead last. At the same time, you're lying through your teeth if you say you don't appreciate even a little bit, getting onto a podium, even if you're like me and don't even stay for the awards, ever, even if you know you got one.

My posts is more meant at the commercialism in amateur racing, and noticing how that it can even affect large portions of AG podiums, and whether the concept of a sponsor sending recruited fast amateur athletes to dominate local AG events is fair - clearly a lot of people here say it's plenty fair, and that's fine. I happen to think a bit otherwise, and think if you're ponying up sponorship to send or support recruited a large number of fast athletes to represent you, it is more in the spirit of pro/elite racers, not AGers.

But of course, as per ST, this comes back down to making assumptions that I'm a whiner, I'm a weak racer, and I only want to race slow fields, even all of those assumptions are completely on your part, not mine. And that's cool too - I know ST well, so nothing new to me on that front. In fact, I'd be pretty shocked if you guys didn't jump to those conclusions!

My posts is more meant at the commercialism in amateur racing, and noticing how that it can even affect large portions of AG podiums, and whether the concept of a sponsor sending recruited fast amateur athletes to dominate local AG events is fair - clearly a lot of people here say it's plenty fair, and that's fine. I happen to think a bit otherwise, and think if you're ponying up sponorship to send or support recruited a large number of fast athletes to represent you, it is more in the spirit of pro/elite racers, not AGers.

+1 on this post. It's obvious which team he's referencing and i echo your statements. Just a bunch of regular Joe's that happen to be good at triathlon and show up to the same races to race against their buddies. These guys are paying to race just like everyone else. Complete non issue....

You live in one of the three most competitive triathlon markets in the country - Boulder, San Diego, and San Francisco. Most of the EMJ guys you were referring to have been here and racing for some time. The guy who started the team owns the "commercial" product you reference so I frankly don't blame him for putting it on his kits. I can tell you as someone who trains with these guys on the weekend I can say without a doubt they work their asses off harder than most triathletes and they all are some of the nicest guys I know hands down.

With regard to your reference to Craig Alexander, the guy who won Vineman Amateur overall last year is the guy who started EMJ, and was 25mins back from the Pro winner. That is a MASSIVE difference like Gerlach said.

Don't condemn people for working hard, get out there and chop wood.

---

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I guess it just felt to me kind of unsportmanlike to recruit the fastest racers from the region, give them perks to show up to represent your product at the race, and then crush the AGers as opposing to racing elite/pro, as I'd be most of those team racers wouldn't even be there if they weren't sponsored to do so.

Anyway, just wondering out loud about it.

With regard to your reference to Craig Alexander, the guy who won Vineman Amateur overall last year is the guy who started EMJ, and was 25mins back from the Pro winner. That is a MASSIVE difference like Gerlach said.

Don't condemn people for working hard, get out there and chop wood.

If I wanted to get crushed by pro/elites by racing the 'fastest people possible', I'd enter the elite divison (I can't anyway, I"m too slow!) and get crushed.

People give a lot of lip service to 'racing the fastest people possible', but for the majority of us AGers, that's just not a recipe for enjoyment. Elites are so fast that I don't even see them on the race course, and the BOPers are so slow that similarly I don't see them.

And if I wanted to just race against "team sponsored", I'd rather sign up in a specific race to compete specifically against team sponsored. If I enter my local tri, I'd much prefer that it would be representative of a typical local tri. Now, if all local tris were dominated by 'team sponsored', then ok, that's the new reality and tough (competitive cycling is like this as people have suggested above). But when the vast majority of tris are NOT dominated by 'team sponsored', but all the ones in my local area are, it gives grounds to at least consider whether something is off.

One of the main joys of smaller local tris for us middling AGers, is yes, the fields are softer, so we have a chance to pass and be passed, and get that thrill of excitement as you hammer toward the chute, and even wonder if you're lucky enough that day to creep onto the podium, or just better your AG placement from prior years especially against 'rivals' from prior years who might be in the same race. It's a somewhat different consideration than a strong pro triathlete who would be bored racing soft local fields, and who really needs to challenge themselves against the best of the best.

So the answer as an AGer to your question "don't you want to race great athletes?", my honest answer is really NO, I don't. I have no business racing them! Craig Alexander raced Vineman 70.3 two years ago when I did it and even my non-triathletes friends would have a good laugh if I even said "I raced Craig Alexander at Vineman!" because that's so far from reality that it's ludicrous. I enter races to compete against similar-abilities folks, and see how my fitness stacks up against a field of competitors on local,regional, or national levels. I definitely am NOT remotely, or ever considering racing "great" or even "good" athletes - that's already out of my league, and in fact I hope there are not so many great ones that I get left all alone on the course! (Happens to me at times, as I'm sometimes too fast for the MOP crew but so far behind the podium guys that I'm stuck in 'no-mans-land' during a race, all by myself.)

I tend to side with you. The team in question in untouchable in our area, gram an AG perspective. I've just come to see it as fait comply that they will sweep the top spots, but I actually enjoy seeing them race. I always they're spouting off in local races for tuning up, not proving anything.

Unfortunately, as you note, they race in our comp set but are in our comp set in name only. They have elite abilities and it's definitely not a fair fight.

That said--I've not thought of it as unfair. Just as a selection that's been made.

BTW yes it was pretty cool to come through the choute in Windsor and see Crowie standing there in the tent. I'm taller than him.

on a semi elitest, in their own minds, ST forum anyway,

Fixed that for you Dev.

With regard to your reference to Craig Alexander, the guy who won Vineman Amateur overall last year is the guy who started EMJ, and was 25mins back from the Pro winner. That is a MASSIVE difference like Gerlach said.

I see some of this sort of thing and it does not bother me.

I think in most cases if the team did not exist the same people would be on the podium, they would just be wearing different kit. I'm sure certain teams will target particular races and maybe be represented more than is ordinary, but so what? The sponsor should be happy with all the exposure, and I think it is good for the sport if it can attract more sponsors.

I guess it just felt to me kind of unsportmanlike to recruit the fastest racers from the region, give them perks to show up to represent your product at the race...

Are you saying we want to be considered elitests but can't quite manage it?

Of course the irony here is that anyone who does triathlon in reality is in the elite end of our society - however you define "elite"!

I think the EMJ guys have done a great job with their strategy. They've built a strong brand around very fast athletes. Even in Kona, a big % of the top AGers are EMJ. Before triathlon, I had no idea that the EMJ products existed, but their presence at these events even resulted in me buying some of their products. I get to shave my legs with the same product that Rich Viola shaves his square jaw with!

I can't say the same thing for any other company that sponsors triathlon. I've never purchased Gatorade, I've never gone to Bahrain, I've never banked with Comerzbank, I've never shopped at Freshii, I don't run in Asics, I don't get coaching from sans-ego, I don't drink Biest Milch, I don't ride a Canyon or Scott, I don't use Fuel Belt, I don't drink Chocolate Milk. But I have bought some Every Man Jack products... maybe some other companies could take a lesson from them!

In terms of them dominating the AG ranks, personally it gives me more motivation. When I'm getting run down by people, instead of me needing to focus on a particular individual, I can be motivated by not being beaten by another one of those EMJ f&#@3rs!

I actually think amateur triathlon should do more of this. In amateur bike racing, even "slow teams" wear subsidized kits with as many sponsors on them as pro kits. And get discounts. "Unattached" riders are distinct minority.

And the faster teams get more stuff, like free kits, bottles, bikes at wholesale prices, etc.

In triathlon the industry and the major race organizers have done a good job at setting up a system to extract money from racers.

In bike racing we've done a better job at extracting value from industry and organizers. Our entry fees are a full order of magnitude less, e.g. around $25-$75 vs. $250-$750 (granted it's much cheaper to put on a bike race, generally speaking.) And we extract things from industry. Your logo doesn't get on our kit for free. Even if we're a mediocre Cat 4-5 team. And even if it's just like 3 boxes of past-sell-date Clif Bars.

People make fun of the "prof-amateur" bike racer strutting around in a kit that looks pro, even though he's at 0.5 W/kg.

But we make fun of Ironman triathletes who *pay* to put the race organizer's logo on themselves (or any number of clothing with the IM logo). Bike racers would never do that! Nothing for free.


As an example, I'm not that great of a masters cyclist (win maybe 1-2x podunk races per year out of ~20 races per year) But I get entry fees comped. Free hotel sometimes. Bike stuff at LBS cost.

I guess it just felt to me kind of unsportmanlike to recruit the fastest racers from the region, give them perks to show up to represent your product at the race, and then crush the AGers as opposing to racing elite/pro, as I'd be most of those team racers wouldn't even be there if they weren't sponsored to do so.

If I ever have kids I will never involve them in any sport that doesn't keep score or calls every game a tie to shield them from losing. So that when they grow up and get beat by faster people the first thing they do is think of how to improve their own performance, not complain about the fast people participating.

Dude. This is why you race yourself and race for your own time. If you let your assessment of your own performance be based on where you finish in any given field, you're kidding yourself. It all depends on who shows up. Even my 10 yr old son understands that. He doesn't give a damn if he wins an event at a local developmental swim meet, and he's disappointed if he adds time regardless of where he finishes. But if he drops time in the finals of the state championship meet and finishes 5th or whatever, he's pumped.

If your times are continuing to drop or are at least competitive with the others that were the "usual suspects" at your local races, then be happy. Just because some other guys move to town and start taking your spot on the podium doesn't diminish your results.

The more people that do triathlon the better.


I got out of triathlons because they are too crowded but to each his own.

The more people that do triathlon the better.


I got out of triathlons because they are too crowded but to each his own.

Are you still having fun racing? If not, then don't. Life is too short to not have fun playing a game that we are just doing for fun...that includes those fast guys/gals too. What you describe is one of those hard things to pull into perspective. You said yourself that you have been doing these races for a decade; so therefore you have a significant amount of time invested in something that you have grown to like or love. It is hard to quit something that you have such an investment in (money, time, mental), but if you are not having fun, it is just not worth it. Try something else that is a little bit 'softer' if you really like to be on the podium (i.e. something with less competition...not necessarily easier). There is nothing wrong with that. Hope you find your happy place. I mean that very sincerely.
Stephen J

lightheir wrote:

Just to say again - it's the entire ST crowd that's projecting this image of me as this whiny, "I hate losing" and "I only wanna race people I can win against." That's fine - I actually expect that from ST and would be shocked if otherwise!

Did you or did you not post that you would rather race against "less fast" racers?

As for the "entire ST crowd", I refer you to the early 21st Century philosopher, Raylan Givens

In NorCal I'm not to sure many races are selling out. HITS races, Tri-California, and my guess is USAP could use more racers / have open slots. Not sure about others, but between USAP and Tri-Cal there is a lot of open opportunities to race!

I do not know why you seem to be calling top AGers elites. Either you have a pro card or you do not.

In NorCal I'm not to sure many races are selling out. HITS races, Tri-California, and my guess is USAP could use more racers / have open slots. Not sure about others, but between USAP and Tri-Cal there is a lot of open opportunities to race!

No one was asking if you wanted to race against a pro or elite. The question was don't you want to race great athletes, meaning the fastest, and you turned GREAT into PRO/ELITE. Remember, this was in response to you saying Team EMJ was engaging in unfair competition by sweeping up Age Group podiums. You are the one saying Team EMJ is basically pro/elite status and you don't want them in your age group when really it is just a bunch of fast guys who are on the same team and would be the same fast guys with or without the Team EMJ kit.

Do you want the fastest people to show up or not?

No one is questioning your reading comprehension… But… The team that is being complained is made up of local people racing local events so ... Not sure if you understood that from what you read.

The OP is saying they are not local and were "sent' in to "crush" and "dominate" the AGers, but where is the proof. Last time I checked, just about every race shows where the athletes are from. So where are all of these out-of-towners.

And the OP was not talking about open vs AG. He was complaining about the commercializations of a team and how that team was unsportsmanlike and not engaged in fair play.

Show me where Team EMJ is registering for a bunch of races that has an open division but is registering in AG only.

Yeah, you think so highly of him that you came on here and trashed him and his team. Right.