I found that they helped me keep my hand and forearm working as a single unit. That being said, I also found that my stroke felt more awkward with them, and I was definitely slower when using them. All in all I didn't find them that useful.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I ended up not using them too frequently because of that.

This might be a good place for the real swimmers to give us some input here. I've seen and tried a variety of catch and pull techniques. An elbow that leads on the way back through the water definitely does not work well as the point of the elbow cuts through the water rather than catching the water.

Considering aero or fluid dynamics for the catch and pull, I've seen rather effective straight arm pulls underwater where the swimmer is "winging" it with a straight arm. I've also seen effective bent "wings" as long as the elbow is not leading the way under the water.

I'm trying and using both as a way to avoid getting tired of doing the same thing over and over. At first, I wanted to get down the "perfect" catch and pull and repeat it over and over because we are talking endurance, right? Then it occurred to me that I vary my stride while running and my cadence on the bike to go even further and maintain a good pace.

Now I'm a slow swimmer who may be slow because I'm older and didn't really start doing yardage until later in life so I'd be interested in the swimmers take on this.

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I use mine every now and then. I find they provide a good as a physical reminder of what the front 1/3 of the stroke should feel like. I don't use them for any main sets or anything though, just stoke correction.

I actually LIKE that they feel my stroke feel awkward - I find that if I'm doing a correct EVF, the fulcrum isn't a limiter, but once I start getting sloppy (even a little fatigue), the elbow drops, and the fulcrum prevents me from swimming with that dropped elbow. At least for me, it isn't awkward in the way that it's damaging my stroke - it's awkward because it's forcing correct EVF, no matter what.

as a competitive swimmer we have them, but rarely use them. haven't at all this year. I think for me the thing that has given me the most improvement is the finis finger (sculling) paddles, using them with the middle finger strap tight and the wrist strap loose, focusing on evf.

I suspect you competitive swimmer have a lot less need for them than us self-taught adult-onset triathlete swimmers, as your EVF is likely good enough that you benefit little from them.

I have paddles without wrist straps, but I'm finding that I unfortunately still can drop the elbow with them, as there's no penalty for dropping the elbow and flexing the wrist (the paddle stays on fine, better, even.)

Thanks for the post on the finis fulcrum lightheir. I am surprised people aren't all over this...

Yes, even with the finis agility paddles you are rewarded by dropping the wrist as the paddle stays on.

After working on EVF I am sure that my technique is better as I can feel the lats engaging. Problem is that this doesn't seem to translate to immediate speed... I was expecting my times to magically drop straight away with my new and improved form...

Have you noticed any improvement in times now given another couple of months have passed since you posted?

I'm being dead honest here. Pretty much near-zero increase in speed despite the significantly improved EVF motion. Literally like max 1sec/100, at best.

You may have read some of my other posts about this, but what my experience with swimming is coming down to after years of learning as an adult and especially a lot of Vasa trainer work, is that once you're an 'intermediate' swimmer, like 1:50/100 pace or faster, it's almost all engine to get to FOP paces. You can change things like EVF, kick, breathing, etc., but all in combination, they'll net <5sec/100 compared to the engine improvement, which willl give you the jump from 1:50 to sub 1:20/100, even with almost no technical gains.

I say this from direct experience - I made ALL of my gains from 1:45 to 1:20/100yd pace in the last year through several blocks of Vasa trainer where I was doing 6-8hrs Vasa + 0.5-1hrs per week of pool swimming. The Vasa alone caused huge jumps in speed that were immediately noticeable in the pool with the much improved power and turnover, whereas all the smoothness and technical gains I have actually resulted in WORSE times, mainly because the technique training subtracted from my Vasa power training. I really wish I could say the technique was responsible for some gain, but I'd be lying.

As is, I've said this like a broken record, but any fish here who is swimming sub 1:20 pace (or even sub 1:10pace) would STILL be crushing 1:40/100yd swimmers, even with a drag suit, or even doing a one-armed stroke with one arm tied to their waist. They have power, power, and more power, and this pretty much proves it. It's an outright lie when some fish say "I have the fitness of a MOP 1:45/100 swimmer, but thanks to my magic technique, I can hold 1:10s/100 for 2 miles", or more realistically, "you 1:45-50/100yd swimmers should be swimming as fast as me at 1:15/100, but the difference between you and me isn't power,power, power, it's techinque, technique, and maybe a little power." What I'm finding from direct experience is contradictory from the standard swimmer coaching mantra, in that it's been power, power, and more power for me, after getting decent body position in the water. I can even pull with a 100% dropped elbow and only lose 1-2s/100.

 
I'm being dead honest here. Pretty much near-zero increase in speed despite the significantly improved EVF motion. Literally like max 1sec/100, at best.

You may have read some of my other posts about this, but what my experience with swimming is coming down to after years of learning as an adult and especially a lot of Vasa trainer work, is that once you're an 'intermediate' swimmer, like 1:50/100 pace or faster, it's almost all engine to get to FOP paces. You can change things like EVF, kick, breathing, etc., but all in combination, they'll net <5sec/100 compared to the engine improvement, which willl give you the jump from 1:50 to sub 1:20/100, even with almost no technical gains.

I say this from direct experience - I made ALL of my gains from 1:45 to 1:20/100yd pace in the last year through several blocks of Vasa trainer where I was doing 6-8hrs Vasa + 0.5-1hrs per week of pool swimming. The Vasa alone caused huge jumps in speed that were immediately noticeable in the pool with the much improved power and turnover, whereas all the smoothness and technical gains I have actually resulted in WORSE times, mainly because the technique training subtracted from my Vasa power training. I really wish I could say the technique was responsible for some gain, but I'd be lying.

As is, I've said this like a broken record, but any fish here who is swimming sub 1:20 pace (or even sub 1:10pace) would STILL be crushing 1:40/100yd swimmers, even with a drag suit, or even doing a one-armed stroke with one arm tied to their waist. They have power, power, and more power, and this pretty much proves it. It's an outright lie when some fish say "I have the fitness of a MOP 1:45/100 swimmer, but thanks to my magic technique, I can hold 1:10s/100 for 2 miles", or more realistically, "you 1:45-50/100yd swimmers should be swimming as fast as me at 1:15/100, but the difference between you and me isn't power,power, power, it's techinque, technique, and maybe a little power." What I'm finding from direct experience is contradictory from the standard swimmer coaching mantra, in that it's been power, power, and more power for me, after getting decent body position in the water. I can even pull with a 100% dropped elbow and only lose 1-2s/100.[/quote]
Appreciate the honesty. What you are saying correlates with all of my conclusions.

I have heard a few pros say that when they want to crank up their swim they just punch out sessions with paddles and a band until they are strong. Although, I am sure they have a good technique to start with.

I think that once technique is at an adequate level it is about specific power. I've had young kids swim past me hardly exerting themselves, they obviously don't have more power but maybe more swim specific power or power to drag? (if there is such thing).

Think I will still get the finis fulcrum. It will be good to help correct my ridiculously elevated hand which makes it look like I am waving to the people in the lane beside me :)

LH - I'm not sure why some fish say they have "low fitness" yet can go 1:10/100 scy for 3500 yds, but perhaps it is b/c at their peak in college, they could hold 1:00 or maybe even sub-1:00 for 10,000 scy, so relatively speaking they are "out of shape". Also, guys with that kind of talent are also kind of trying to be modest, i think, but these are likely guys who swam their first 100 under 1:00 at like age 10. Have you ever looked at the USA Swimming age group records??? The 10-yr old boys record for 100 scy is 53.1, 200 is 1:57.9, and 500 is 5:14.1, and these swims are at AGE 10!!! Holy hell Batman, that is some incredibly fast swimming for a 10-yr old!!!

Regarding the technique issue, sure, you have to have "pretty good" form but not perfect. Lots of international caliber swimmers have strokes that are not perfect at all but they have lots of power and a big aerobic engine so they still go fast.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Appreciate the honesty. What you are saying correlates with all of my conclusions.

I have heard a few pros say that when they want to crank up their swim they just punch out sessions with paddles and a band until they are strong. Although, I am sure they have a good technique to start with.

I think that once technique is at an adequate level it is about specific power. I've had young kids swim past me hardly exerting themselves, they obviously don't have more power but maybe more swim specific power or power to drag? (if there is such thing).

Think I will still get the finis fulcrum. It will be good to help correct my ridiculously elevated hand which makes it look like I am waving to the people in the lane beside me :)[/quote]
The little kids going past you likely have a lot more power:hydrodynamics, and almost certainly a lot more arm-swim endurance than you do. Sure, if they had your frontal surface they wouldn't be as fast with their little arms, but for their size, they're proportionally stronger.

Those fast kids have a lot more power than you think. Sure, if you gave them your body drag and used their arms, it probably wouldn't work, but for their size, it's significant.

I spent quite awhile looking for these magical kids who swim fast with seemingly no effort that people instantly bring up when I talk about power. There's a serious 12 year old girls swim club that swam before my masters group, and the fastest girls are probably around 1:10/100 or so. Sorry, but no such magical kids there. These girls practice hard, do a lot of effort/intensity, and to prove their power, they plow through the water with paddles as big as the ones I use, at a significantly faster rate.

I think the common thing to do is to misjudge a kid by just looking at their stage of development and conclude "they can't possibly have power", when in reality, they can have elite-level power and still look tiny (Alistair Brownlee looks like a child and is a monster in all 3 disciplines.) And just because someone makes it look easy doesn't mean they are lacking power. Since I've gotten down to 1:20 pace for intervals, I've had a few of my ex-lanemates in masters remark on my improvement and say "wow you got such good technique - you're so much smoother than before!" when in reality, I'm more choppy when swimming at that speed - they're just confusing the appearance of the 1:20 pace compared to a 1:45 or 2:00 pace swimmer - looks like magic technique, but I can assure you that in my case it's power, power and more power.

Personal opinion, I have a set that we share around. The largest benefit is for BOP-Mop swimmers who are putting on the brakes at full (or close-IE upturned hand) extension. In this situation with warm up or certain intervals I think they help.

Once an athlete has a reasonable catch and is say a reasonable MOP or sub 1:50 100LCM then I give them to another swimmer.

The issue with perfect EVF say thinking of SUN Yang is that the catch happens first and then you need internal shoulder rotation before the elbow brakes, IE the sequence of events is good catch first (wrist brakes) then internal rotation of the shoulder to facilitate (lastly) a bend in the elbow….talking perfect EVF freestyle, which is not always perfect freestyle for any one person.

This is extremely hard for AG triathletes even on dry land with bands or with "jonnyO's" swiss ball roll workout, perhaps they are intended for EVF but I prefer them for initial catch, again maybe a useful tool for MOP to BOP swimmers.

Maurice

IMO- the swimming tool is only as good as the swimmer is smart. Tools such as the finis forearm COULD have a use, assuming the user knows what their problem is and appropriately selects a tool to help solve it. Then, and here's the important part, they take the tool off and replicate the technique they just gained. However, many swimmers/ semi-swimmers use a tool and think that their issues are going to magically be solved via toys. When they drop the toys, they resume their regularly scheduled broken technique. If that's the case, then the swimmer/ semi-swimmer would have been better off without it.

Here's the kicker- if you know that you have an issue with something like your early vertical forearm position, you are 85% of the way there to fixing the problem. That insight may or may not be fixed with a toy. However, putting on the toy is not really a good diagnostic tool for those who are sketchy in knowledge about their technique. I'd suspect that putting on something like a Fulcrum could mess up a good swimmer's technique, since now they have this funky thing that on their arm that changes what their brain is normally focused on. Proceed with caution when working with such tools.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Can I ask a really stoopid question? When people refer to paces (like the 1:50 LCM noted above), are they referring to race pace or time for a single 100m interval, all out?

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I don't think the Finis Fulcrum will screw up a good swimmer's stroke. Just my opinion, but it doesn't really force anything particular bad about a stroke.

I do agree that tools (toys) are best for those with a specific fix in mind. For me, it was very clear from my video that the dropped elbow was accompanied by a really flexed wrist to compensate - the fulcrum really fixes both very well. Not all swimmers drop like I do, but a lot do, and it's a pretty good clue that if you feel really awful with the Fulcrum on, it's probably worth taking a look at your EVF.

I view the pull buoy and ankle band (I've spent a lot of time with both) the same way. They're not going to make you perfect, but for sure, if you have serious issues swimming with them, it's worth taking a hard look at why exactly it's so hard for you, as it'll likely reveal a form flaw error.

The Finis fulcrum will also force a EVF in some like me with a dropped elbow far, far better than just telling yourself to do it, or even a top coach screaming at you to do it, because it literally forces you do it, even at cost of your swim propulsion until you get it right.

It varies per person, and yes, it's a constant issue on forums. I tend to mean Oly race pace, so when I say I swim 1:25s, I can hold that for a good 25-30mins or do something like 10 x 200 at that pace with <7sec rest.

Sorry I should clarify, reasonable MOP swimmers hitting multiples(10-20) of 1:45-1:50 and leaving on 2:00-2:05min. Often with pull.

LCM

Maurice

Tried them out once and thought they were just another gimmick to make money from adult-onset swimmers.

One drill my old team used to reinforce a high elbow catch (or more accurately, to dissuade against dropping the elbow) was to use 'Fist Gloves' or hold tennis balls in each hand while wearing an ankle band. You could just clench your hands into fists, but then it's too easy to cheat. In order to make any forward progress, you have little choice but to get your forearms into the correct position. Your hands will feel like giant paddles once you take off the gloves or release the tennis balls.

Despite what you say I can definitely pull dropped elbow and all with fully clenched hands, and lose very little speed (my turnover goes up a lot.) I've got a video of myself that shows it. But it does help some on the EVF - the Finis though exaggerates it even more. I don't think it's gimmicky at all, unless you're already one of those who doesn't drop the elbow so much already - in that case you won't notice much of a difference.

The Forearm Fulcrum is actually a good tool to use. However, what will get you into a high elbow catch is body position, the fulcrum will not fix or encourage this. The best drill to feel pressure on the forearm is the fist drill as noted in previous threads. Not a clinched fist, but gently fold hand like holding a butterfly.

That said I use the forearm fulcrums on swimmers to help remove "the claw" on recovery arm. A common problem with swimmers/triathletes is reaching recovery arm reaching too far forward, wrist bends 90 degs, fingers down with tense flat hand ("the claw"). Recovery arm lays flat on entry with 90 deg hand entering first putting all pressure on rotator, as well as making it very difficult to find or get into a high elbow catch. The fulcrum will not allow swimmer to form "the claw" on recovery without losing or releasing the fulcrum.

What will get you into a high elbow catch is good body position...
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Exactly. I doubt this toy hurts you but this is a "tail wags the dog" device.

The "Stop in the name of love". Most people understand what I mean I say it that way, but folks under 30 have no idea what I am saying.

Interestingly enough, the late Doug Stern, who was one of the first slowtwitch board favorites, had no problem with the swimmer's hand gliding back up toward the surface as they extend. He didn't exactly encourage it, but didn't have a problem with it. That isn't / wasn't an opinion I share and not one I have seen espoused anywhere else.

I realize your post was, um, seven years ago, but am hoping you or lightheir might still be on this forum:

What you describe is where I am: 1.50/100, and I've been here for a number of years. I've done lots of work on changing stroke technique to be more efficient but not gained any speed.

So, my neophyte question is: when you talk about "engine" do you mean just overall power/strength? And if so, do you have recommendations besides the Vasa?

I have realized a couple of things after some filming done last week: 1) I don't accelerate in my stroke very much, am more "monospeed" and 2) I just don't have a strong pull, in any stroke.

While I do plan to keep working on technique, EVF, etc, I want to figure out how to improve my engine!

Thanks in advance to you or anyone else who might see this for any info/advice/tips...
xLisa

What they're saying is just not true. There is a power and fitness component to swimming, but growing up I swam with plenty of very fast kids who were otherwise not particularly strong. Technique is more than just how you move through the water, it's also how you apply force to the water.

There is a correlation between those two things you noticed. Once you start your pull, you need to pull hard, your hand should be accelerating all the way until it exits the water. You may try doing some sets with fins to let you feel this without tiring yourself out. Another place to work on it is by doing some fast lengths. Important to give yourself plenty of rest when working on swimming fast or it'll be counterproductive.

Hah I'm still here. My old post look 'ancient' to me now on this thread, but I still stand by what I said before!

Not a fish myself (more like a log) but I've found the only way for me to improve my engine is to swim more volume, and harder. It's hard, and it takes a shockingly long time for me to amp it up, for small gains. But for sure, the stronger the engine (arms/lungs), the easier it is to make technical gains.

No magic advice here - swim as much as possible (it takes me literally 15k a week of swimming to improve a tiny amount, any less and I don't improve at all!), with a variety of speeds (avoid monospeed training, don't forget all-out sprint intervals), and be ready for the occasional world of hurt workout (like a max steady effort 20 x 100 that you even dread). And then throw in OWS training with a wetsuit to prepare for race day. It all helps.

Thank you. I need to find a way to force myself to do speed training, even tho I swim alone. For some reason I really struggle to make myself go fast.

But I will try using fins more and work on trying to pull harder and see about slowly building up stamina/endurance!

Appreciate your reply

Yay! Glad you are still here :)

So, I don't race. Or do triathlons. I just happened onto this forum when searching for people who were talking about the Finish forearm fulcrum, which I considered buying to help me stop dropping my elbow all the time (which I didn't realize I did until seeing film)

I don't think there is any way I could do 15k a week, I normally swim 3-4 times a week and around 7k-8.5k per week, tho I could probably do more than what I do. Maybe 10k.

But the principal of what you say makes sense. IE, that I need to build strength, and to make myself use it! I do not know why this is such a struggle for me.

(I was marathoner who got injured and started swimming at 43 -- now, 12 years later I am bummed that I am still so slow).

And yes, I need to make myself do sprints. I have no idea why I am so averse to anything but "all-day-pace" but clearly this needs to change if I want to get faster. I just had this idea/dream that if I improved my form, my all-day-pace would increase, as it very very much did with running.

Anyway -- I am so glad you're still here and thank you for answering!

xLisa

Swimming is great (this comes from someone who absolutely HATED swimming and clearly has low talent for it - I should be a pro triathlete swimmer for how much I swim....but I'm not even close!)

You don't have to go hog wild with sprints right away. Accept the fact that they're hard and will take awihle to build up to. Just start with the occasional 4 x 25 or 1 x 100, then maybe 6 x 25, 3 x 50, etc. Keep it short, and fun so you can go as fast as you can while maintaining form. You don't have to do like 10 x 100 off the bat to improve a lot - just doing some swimming fast helps a ton.

I'm totally guilty of not doing enough short 25s and 50s all-out myself, and my top speed definitely suffers for it.

Not to you in particular...
The resistance of water is both a blessing and a curse. Make it work in your favor by appreciating it effects when you go faster (i.e. sprinting). Only a few seconds faster on rested 50s will enhance "feel" for a longer "bigger" stroke, and, if you let yourself sense the water flowing around you all the way to the tip of your toes you can learn to smooth things out.
Speed teaches everything in swimming, to those ready to listen. AOS swimmers generally get far far too little speed in their workouts. Therefore, they get stuck with mediocrity.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Feeling the water flowing around and over your body also, IME, increases one's enjoyment of swimming. I never get bored swimming b/c I love the feel of the water flowing around me, and the feeling varies considerably depending on what stroke I'm doing, whether I'm coming off the wall after a turn, how hard I'm swimming, etc, etc, etc. I think a lack of ability to enjoy this feeling is why some people don't enjoy swimming. Feeling the water flowing around and over you is what swimmers mean by "feel for the water".

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

This is something that several people have told me, and something I don't feel naturally "good" at. When I swim, I _do_ feel totally present most of the time, I am concentrating on swimming and not thinking about my boss or deadlines or whatever, but literally feeling the water is not something that comes to me.

Just last week someone recommended to me the Total Immersion book from ages ago, specifically with reference to this, and I just got it from the library last night so will start soon!

I believe he is kind of _not_ into speed, and I want to combine the two - feeling/sensing more the water and how my body is affecting it - and increasing speed.

Thanks!
xLisa

You are welcome!
Enjoy the journey is my motto. That said, it is good to know where you want your journey to take you. It sounds like you do.
A million years ago a Olympic trials qualifier in the marathon told me when I asked "how do you run so fast?" His reply was " in order to run fast you have to run fast."
Which is a polite way of saying, do lots of intervals. I got the message, to my disappointment, I bumped into my limits at a lower level than I hoped for. Guess someone's gotta be average (insert shoulder Shrug emoji)
Enjoy the journey

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

I got started swimming with Total Immersion. It's a good book, but as a triathlete trying to RACE swimming, a few caveats:

The edition I read said to avoid intervals. He said the speed would come with technique. For me, that meant I plateau'd out at 2:20/100, and in fact it was impossible to make any technical gains at that point because my swim arm/form fitness could not sustain better technique. I'm actually completely convinced that the awesome "early vertical forearm" you see elite swimmers do is a much more a function of fitness than form (when you get that strong, you naturally use much more EVF to scoop maximal water, and when you are weaker you naturally avoid it because you're not strong enough to move that much water.) In summary, as a slow beginner, Total Immersion is right, you don't need intervals, but once you're plateauing out, you need them. There is no youth swim group that successfully makes those 'fast' swim kids that avoids intervals - they usually do wayyyy more intervals than adult swimmers.

It's like manofthewoods said - swimming fast is required to learn to swim faster more efficiently. The 'swim easy go fast' sells a lot of books, but is only true if you are comparing yourself to decidedly casual swimmers who never really worry about their form, pace, or about pushing their abilities. If that's your standard, yes, you will 'go fast compared to nonswimmers and casual swimmers' but you will get totally destroyed even by back of the pack triathletes who at least do intervals and try and improve their form.

Thanks, lightheir. Yes, this is my fear/impression. I don't want to not go fast (i.e. T.I.) but I do want to see if I can "feel" the water more. So I'm going to take all of it with a pinch of salt and a bit of philosophy and try, at the same time, to make myself do some intervals. At least to do "faster" if not sprinting.

To me, what you say makes a lot of sense, about the EVF requiring strength. I am also planning to try to up the weights I use in gym class (from 3lb to 5lb, nothing crazy - but I still have the tiny marathoner's body despite having had to give up running in 2014, so heavy weights are a real struggle for me)

Anyway - love getting people's perspective on this forum!

xLisa

Thanks for the perspective! (And I love the sign at your kid's school, lol)
xLisa

The most fun way I've done fast intervals is to do 25's on a lot of rest.

Like 15-20 seconds of rest, then just blast away at the next 25.

Bonus fun if you have a buddy to race. Send off on 45 or 60 seconds and beat them across the pool!!!

Reminds me of a story about the great Eddy Merckx when he was asked what someone should buy for their bike to go faster. He said, "Don't buy upgrades, ride up grades."

This is what I found with swimming. Just like there's "no substitute for the miles" when training for the bike and run, there's no substitute for the yards in swimming. You have to put in the work, and you have to swim fast to get faster. Though there are many days I wish it wasn't so, haha!!

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You will never, in your life, have a chance like this again.
If I were you, I would not pass this up. I would not let this go by...this is rare.
Come on...what harm??

Lisa - You might also want to get some paddles if you don't already have a pair. Since you have a a "tiny marathoner's body", you would prob want to get a smaller size. I like the Strokemaker paddles but there are several good paddles on the market. The paddles more or less force you to pull more water with each stroke which should make your pull stronger. Pulling with paddles and a pull buoy might be just what you need to get stronger and faster. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks, ericmulk,

Absurdly, I actually have _four_ different sets of paddles:

1) the finis agility, which I like best and are small (just about the size of your hand) and don't have holes in them
2) the more "standard" ones that are large and have holes and rubber tubing to attach them (which I think I need to use more)
3) the finis iso hand paddles (which I cannot remember why I ordered but have never been able to use effectively)
and, as of last week
4) some turbo (Spanish brand - I was in Spain) "finger paddles" that only cover about to your second knuckle. So far I really like them.

In the past, I have used paddles but just sort of done my normal swimming with them (i.e. no "oomph" to my pull). Now, I am realizing that I need to transition into putting some power into it, tho from what I've read not for long distances to avoid injury until I build up more strength, I think.

Also, if anyone has input (yes, I already have a lot of toys), I would be curious if anyone has tried the finis "bolster" paddles, which force you not to bend your wrist. The reviews online are few and very mixed.

Thanks for your reply!
xLisa

If you're interested in the Fulcrum, an easy solution is to hold the paddle 'upside down'. Use the 'standard' ones you have.

I made a video of it recently for a visual.



What the fulcrum does is 'lock' the wrist so that you have to get the forearm and hand doing in the same thing. Holding the paddle like I show accomplishes the same goal.

As others have said, work on swimming progressively faster and you can throw in some of this paddle work to help feel the skill.

If you do it, switch back and forth between reps with the paddles and reps without. Try to create the same sensations with and without the paddles.

Hope that helps.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

I think it's good that it forces an EVF, but I wonder if that's counter-productive. Your arm might be in the right position, but you're not pulling efficiently as it's being forced into that position as opposed to you having a light-bulb moment where you figure out yourself (without the tool) that having a EVF is much more efficient. Does it need to happen naturally to be effective?

Lisa - Ya, I think you know what you need to do: just do lots of pulling using your standard paddles. As Andrew (MasteringFlow) suggests, alternating paddles with no paddles is a good way to try to learn to pull as much water w/o paddles as with. You can time yourself for each 100 and see if you can go as fast w/o padds as with. If you're truly ambitious, you could start a logbook of your swimming so that you can compare today's swim workout with that of say 6 months ago. The paddles and pull buoy are great tools to develop your pulling ability which is the backbone of faster swimming, and with the logbook you can track your progress. :) Cheers, Eric M.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

To echo Eric, I would HIGHLY recommend keeping track of your performances as often as you can.

It is motivating in the moment and it's motivating over time.

Even if your primary goal is to improve your skills, you need concrete feedback as to whether what you're doing is actually resulting in improved performance.

In addition, keep track of your stroke counts. If the numbers are getting lower, especially when you're pulling, that means you're moving more water with each stroke. That's success.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

I forgot to mention stroke counts, prob b/c it is so second nature to me. Most really fast swimmers have low stroke counts. A couple of Christmases ago, a UGA dist swimmer came into the club where I swim, and i watched him warming up at 1:05/100 yd with 10 str/min, and he did every 4th length backstroke. He went 4:12 for his 500 free and around 14:55 for the 1650. Pretty impressive to me. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Unfortunately, it's not second nature to most, although it should be.

The observation that faster swimmers tend to have lower stroke counts is a good one and working to improve that metric is a good strategy.

It's great for knowing when something has changed. If you normally take 20 strokes per lap and all of a sudden you're at 25, something has changed and you need to figure it out. Conversely, if you normally take 20 strokes, then you make a change and all of a sudden it's 18, you KNOW you did something good and you want to do that again.

If you can swim faster AND with lower stroke counts, that's a huge win.

It's a simple way to measure your progress and tends to provide good feedback about your skills. If you swim faster, it could just be more effort. If you swim faster and you take less strokes, you may be using more effort, but you're definitely swimming better as well.

And it's free! No tech required.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

This is awesome, thank you so much! I love the upside down paddle, and I will try the pinch as well. I love that you include sample sets. Given my strength (lack thereof!), I think I'll need to work up to the distance, but I am excited to give this a try...and to not buy yet another toy! :)

I really appreciate it, thank you, Andrew.
xLisa

Thanks, Eric,

Yes, I probably should start logging. I always used to log my runs, but I was a good runner, so this felt positive to me. And I'm frustrated by the fact that I've now been swimming for 10 years now and I still suck :-0
Until recently, I was telling myself that it's because good swimmers start when they're 4, not when they're 44, but I recently met two people who completely challenged that notion!

At any rate, having some data would help me, and at least give me concrete goals...

Thank you!
xLisa

Lisa - You're very welcome!!! Discussing swimming, running, nutrition, etc, on this forum is one of my favorite pastimes. It is always interesting reading about the experiences of other athletes. :) Cheers, Eric.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Many many thanks for the 'pinch' suggestion. I tried that in the pool yesterday, during warmup and then again at the end of the session before my cool down. I found it helpful int eh warmup as I've been working hard on the front part of my stroke where I tend to glide/dolphin as the hand enters the water, and so the pinch was great to give me a quick feedback.

Only concern I had was that I initially started to reach a bit forward to get that early pull as opposed to driving down.

You bet! Just start with what you can be succesful with. Progress is progress!

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

There's a balance between being patient in the front and getting into the stroke. It's not necessarily a bad thing to be more patient in the front, although you can certainly overdo it. Likewise, there are some individuals that slam into to their stroke right away.

To figure out what's best for you, keep track of stroke counts and times and that should help give you some feedback about what's working for you.

If you think the pinch paddles are causing you to be a little too patient, BUT they help you set up the stroke, just be aware of it and know that you have to be a little more aggressive driving down once you go back to regular swimming.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

i know you ad the crucial sentence bellow but lower or faster stroke counts is just one of the metrics and lower stroke count is not always better and higher not worse .

and while in the pool it is a huge win in choppy open water it could not be a win .

that does not mean i dont agree with what you say , but i think we need to be a bit careful not to over generalise too much.

This sticks out to me right away when you speak of not improving in the water. Yeah as an age group marathoner you can get pretty far on easy running miles. Not the same in the pool.

You say you are swimming 3-4 times a week. I suggest doing a balanced approach such as a format like this:
1. Long/endurance: 300-500 reps at steady/endurance pace, or neg. split each rep
2. Middle distance reps: 100-300's at best avg pace, ex. 15x100 or 5x300 @ threshold pace
3. Short reps: 25-100's at fast pace, ex. 20x50 odds fast, evens easy

Also, do you do any benchmark testing? or repeatable workouts to track progress? What's your time in the pool for a 500 or 1,000 all out?

This morning I tried a couple of "reverse" paddle 50s as part of a pull set at a masters workout. It felt really different (i.e. showed me how much I am bending my wrist) and will work up to more! I have not yet tried the "pinch" method but saw what another commenter said and am looking foward to giving that a go as well!

Cheers,
xLisa

Oh, Sweet Jesus :-0

Okay, so I need to take this advice seriously and start: a) logging and b) pushing myself. But I think it may take ma quite awhile to get close to the reps you're talking about.

I've never done any benchmark testing, and if/when I do reps they tend to be things like: 4x50 on 1.20. Period. (Oops!).

It's interesting (and heartening, in a way) to read that as an age group marathoner you can get pretty far on easy running miles. Not the same in the pool.

At the moment I mostly swim with a masters group, which is difficult because 80% of the folks there are anywhere between WAY WAY WAY better than I am to WAY better than I am, and 19% of the folks are older and worse than I am. So I have no near-peers with whom to gauge myself/push myself/pace myself. I find it less motivating than I used to when (pre-Covid) I sometimes swam with a Tri group that had several people at about the 1.50-2.00 / 100 pace so it was often just _slightly_ too hard for me, which I feel like is just what I need to improve, if that makes sense.

Anyway, in August the swim team will return to the pool I'm at now, which means I'll start swimming alone more rather than in a "competition" (i.e. freezing) temperature pool, and maybe be able to incorporate more sessions along the lines of longer repeats, and so forth.

Thank you @pirateri, for this daunting and realistic input!
xLisa

Don't worry so much about the pinch paddles. Just focus on the upside down paddles. When you've mastered them, give the pinch paddles a shot!

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Yes. I agree.

If your stroke count is improving because you are moving more water or better aligned, this is almost certainly a good thing, regardless of the context.

If your stroke count is improving because you are gliding more or kicking harder, this is not a real change. Swimming like this is typically not a good strategy for open water.

One of the values of keeping track of your numbers is that if you head down the wrong path, you can usually figure it out sooner than later, and change course.

I almost added that caveat in my initial post, but removed it to keep it simple.

Andrew

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today

Andrew, thanks. And this is the challenge in that I can get the front working, but then I rush the last part of finishing the stroke with that push to the pockets. Or, I can get that full back end of stroke, but at the cost of adding a glide/pause at the front. Dumb discipline ;-)

The pinch paddles are good for me in that it's worse on the first half length - worse as in there is a lot of fighting with the paddle as I'm trying to push it forward into the water and it's fighting. Then I get my timing right and as it enters I'm holding it neutral in the water (relative to pool side, moving back relative to my body motion) and there's no fighting the pinched paddle.

My Coach saw me doing it this morning in the warmup - he was a bit worried that the drill would add stiffness into the stroke from the tension holding the paddle, where he's already fighting my overthinking engineers' brain in swimming and my very 'mechanical' stroke. However, for short periods and with the understanding of the potential dis-benefits he was ok.

I've got all the pace/stroke/Swolf data from Garmin. Sadly it shows some great progress a few years back and a regression more recently. Difference in the past was regularly swimming 5 times a week ( 3 squads in pool one OW and one very low distance technique focussed session) and not once or twice as of last year.

Oh, okay, great. Will do!
Best, xLisa

If you’re struggling with both components, just work on one at a time. Then switch your focus to the other component. Over time, you’ll get better at both and you’ll find you can execute both.

As others have alluded to in this thread and elsewhere, it’s going to be very difficult to improve if you’re not swimming much, regardless of what you’re doing. Even if you have the right advice and are performing the right acitivites, it takes a lot of practice.

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http://www.masteringflow.info
http://www.youtube.com/@masteringflow
http://www.andrewsheaffcoaching.com/...freestyle-fast-today