check out the splits for the London triathlon. ridiculously short course i am guessing....


http://www.triathlonresults.co.uk/2005results/Michelob%20ULTRA%20London%20Triathlon%20Sunday%20Results/ResultODEliteMale.htm

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
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I heard Brad make these comments on Sunday. I could not believe it!! Wasnt like the run course is totally flat either. I was wondering the same question.



Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It is impossible to tell since the accuracy of many "10k" legs of triathlons can vary significantly. I remember the Guelph course in Ontario was alway listed as 10k (they now advertise as 9.5k which is closer). I ran 31:15 there my first time racing. The km splits were pretty accurate up to 9k and I still remember looking at my watch and laughing since I covered the final "km" in around 2:00. I also remeber hearing people talking about how fit they must be getting since they ran faster at the end of a tri than they normally do in a 10k road race :)

Chris Emme passed me with about 200 meters to go on the run at Folsom. He was moving! I suppose trying to out-kick someone that fast would have been an exercise in futility. The funny thing was we came out of water at exactly the same time and finished in nearly the exact same time.

--Marcus George
UCLA Triathlon
http://www.triathlon.ucla.edu/

Well, one look at the splits makes it clear he hasn't worked on or had much experience with transitions. He gave up 1:30 to you right there...

The run course was legit (the swim was damn long though)...Kevin Kennedy remarked how startlingly fast that Emme went by him.

ot

The announcer said it was his first triathlon. They probably don't give you much time to practice such things when you run for Stanford...

--Marcus George
UCLA Triathlon
http://www.triathlon.ucla.edu/

Pretty tough to tell as sometimes courses vary and older races incurred T2 in the run split. I would guess 30 and high change? I am just thinking that in the old Desert Princess series there were 5 or six guys running 30-31 min splits Souza, Molina, Allen. Christian Bustos has run around 30 flat for a 10 k. I don't think there will ever be an established "fastest" time that I would be 100% convinced on in a tri split.

That was not only his first tri ever, it was also the first time he swam in a wetsuit. Not bad for a rookie...

I didn't realize there were so many STers there...

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Class Rank Class First Name Last Name Sex Swim Swim Rank Trans1 Bike Bike Rank MPH Trans2 Run Run Rank Pace Final Overall Rank 1/26 M PRO CONRAD STOLTZ M 00:21:57 2 00:00:14 00:54:22 1 27.3 00:00:18 00:31:28 3 00:05:04 01:48:21 1/39 2/26 M PRO GREG BENNETT M 00:21:47 1 00:00:13 00:57:04 7 26.0 00:00:14 00:30:01 1 00:04:50 01:49:21 2/39 3/26 M PRO MARC LEES M 00:22:20 10 00:00:16 00:56:26 4 26.3 00:00:18 00:31:03 2 00:05:00 01:50:26 3/39



Chicago Triathlon 2001. 30:01 is ridiculous, and he didn't even win.

Bevan Docherty, Hunter Kemper, Tim Don, and some others have all run in the 29:30-range during races. Problem is, there is no way to know if that is legit or not in terms of being EXACTLY 10K. And that is for ITU races, usually ones with a very flat bike course. Not sure what the fastest non-drafting 10K is.

You have to remember, distances are VERY suspect in triathlon. So that 31:02 might have been 31:02 or it might have been like 33:02. No way to know... It is sad, because I think this is one of the things that is somewhat shameful to triathlon as a whole. I understand why it happens (connecting three loops of exact distance is very hard, even with long transitions), but it is still unfortunate.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think the RD said this guy posted a 13:40(?) 5k at the end of the Stanfurd track season. I *might* be able to keep up with him on the run leg...if I'm on my bike. ;)

ot

29:54 for Bevan Docherty and 29:56 for Ivan Rana at 2004 ITU Worlds in Madeira. All the stars were aligned: big race (for which people tapered), Olympic year (when the best were peaking), extremely competitive field, high stakes (several teams, including the U.S., were using the race as an Olympic qualifier), major prize money ($160,000 overall, plus major bonus money from sponsors and national feds), sunny, cool, virtually no wind, huge pack on the bike, shortish bike course. I can't be sure about measurement of the run course itself - but they had used the same run course for several world cups in previous years and the women's splits were spot on for what those women had been doing at a number of other world cup races during 2005.

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Lew

I'm sure this guy could run a 31:02. The point is, with triathlon, you just don't know. Especially for a guy who is doing his very first tri, it is entirely possible that he would run significantly slower than his XC/Track times. Even if the run was a hair short, that is still a smoking time, especially for a first tri. My point was only that 10K in a tri is RARELY 6.22 miles... I did not mean to discredit this fellow's run in any way. My answer was more, with regard to the *fastest* triathlon 10K, it is almost impossible to say, since the courses, in general, are not very accurate...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

If people are really running sub 30 10K's, then they are in the wrong sport. I know it is possible (ie Mottram started as a triathlete) but, realistically, 29's can be lowered alot with focused run training only and no swim or run before the race. Considering Meb and Abdi as well as the other top US runners aren't running much faster than 28, these people running splits that fast could be making a killing on the road circuit.

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Go Faster

That's debatable. They already are doing LOTS of focused run traning. They are running those kind of times at the top of their game (these guys are not the "newbies" on the ITU circuit). And they are running them in races where the swim/bike portion is *somewhat* easier (i.e. they are sitting more in the draft and not blitzing the 40K). They are also, quite possibly, running them on slightly shortened courses. All those guys I mentioned can definitely go mid-to-low 29's on a track if they train specifically for a 10K. But they are all tremendously efficient at all three sports, so there is not as much upside potential as for an age-group athlete. They don't run much faster not-off-the-bike than they do off-the-bike.

Plus, Meb didn't win an Olympic medal in the 10K. And he has never won a 10K world championship. Simon Whitfield is a great runner, but he would not win a gold on the track. But he did in triathlon. That also counts for a lot.

And all those guys that I mentioned are also multiple world-cup winners. The money for a top-level triathlete who is consistently winning world cups is probably on par and maybe even better than for a mid-level road circuit runner.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I think you might have misunderstood me, I am agreeing with you. I was insinuating that the runs are definitely shorter than 10K. While there is absolutely no doubt these guys are legit, those times are comparable to a much more than mid level road racer.

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Go Faster

I remember Simon Whitfield being interviewed and saying that he and Greg Bennett wanted to try to break 30 minutes in an olympic distance triathlon. I believe he said that no one had done that yet on a measured course.

As previously stated, run courses in tri are suspect at best. That being said, Greg Welch was a member of the Aussie Junior National XC team and had (assuming the were legit courses) more than a few run splits that were high 29 minutes. If I recall correctly Mark Allen ran sub 30 at the SD Intl Tri about 13 years ago. While not tri, Benjamin Paredes of Mexico was a 2:16 marathoner and did a few duathalons where he posted 10k times that were 30 flat.

Miguel in the 'No...El Tribato

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Michael in Fresno
"Do you spend time with your family? Good. Because a man that doesn't spend time with his family can never be a real man" V. Corleone

This is something that I often wonder....I do think most of those ITU run legs must be short. When I see mid 29's, I wonder why these guys cxan not run thaty fast in an open 10k. Can the swim/bike warm one up for their best 10k? If so, Ritzenheim should invest in a bike and some goggles before he is off to his next 10k.

My guess is that some of these race directors like fast times on their courses.

In 1999 I ran 15:27 for a 5k at the end of a Dannon Race. The course was not long or short. I felt like Superman that day. If these guys are running double the distance, at 15 sec/mi faster, please let me bow down.

When I asked Simon Lessing what he can run for an open 10K, I was surprised to hear him say mid 30's. He also said the 29 min runs off the bike are bunk.

The real question is, what will Souza run for his 30k in Zofingen?!

With all due respect, Simon L. hasn't been the gold standard for Olympic distance run speed since the late 1990's. Dmitri Gaag, Peter Robertson, Ivan Rana, Simon Whitfield, Bevan Docherty (who together have won five of the last six worlds, plus a gold and a silver in the Olympics) are all significantly faster runners than Mr. Lessing ever was. I don't know their pr's for 10,000 meters fresh - but I'll wager that nearly all of them are capable of 28:xx. [That's not unheard of for a triathlete, by the way - if I remember correctly, Harald Robinson (4th at the 1991 worlds) ran 28:xx while on the track team at Cornell.]

The appearance of these burners has coincided with triathlon's admittance to the Olympic Games. As Sydney approached, the quality (and quantity of quality) of athlete entering ITU racing escalated by multiples. This should have been no surprise, of course - the Olympic dream (and the money that often comes with realization of the dream) has been a powerful stimulant in nearly all of its member sports.

The woman I coach is a good example. She entered the sport in 1999, having run very little in the first 29 years of her life - and having never even owned a bicycle. But she did have an olympic engine and the body-in-space control of a gymnast - and after five years of training, clocked a legit 33:40 at the 2004 Toyota Runners Classic at Disneyworld (beating one of the four invited runners and nearly catching two more). I think she had the potential to go 32:xx fresh - but age and injury and other ambitions are going to get in the way.

Sheila is but an example of the quality of athlete attracted to triathlon by the Olympic dream - but even better ones are on the way. IMO, the new group of Aussie women (very young Aussie women) have significantly more potential than anything the sport has experienced thus far.

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Lew

Lew, just out of curiosity, what did Sheila run in 1999?

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Actually, her very first running race, after just a few weeks of training, was the 10K on July 4, 1998, at Whitmore Lake, Michigan. To hear her recount, "I went out fast and died like a dog". Time was near 42 minutes. In her first year of triathlon (1999), she had a couple of 38's, some that were slower, and one where she passed out in the heat (St. Anthony's). In September, however, she ran 36:xx while winning The Triathlon at Pacific Grove.

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Lew

From 42:xx to 33:xx in five short years is stupendous progress, especially later in life.

I remember chatting with her on one of the group rides in Orlando last summer about her running. She said there was a long period she wasn't able to run more than ~25 mpw due to injuries. Not many people can claim that kind of progress on that kind of mileage. She must have been well coached. :-)

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Considering that the Cornell school record is 29:00, I think you don't remember correctly.

Ken "Class of '80" Lehner

P.S. I was a teammate of Pfitzinger when he missed the school record by :04 (29:23).

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I was going to jump on 28:XX thing at Cornell as well, I'm don't remember what the school record is, but I know Brian Clas never ran sub 29:00, and that 29:5X by my teamate Dan Danbrowski was still in the top 10 all time.

Class of 02

Talent, determination, smarts, courage. That combination can make any coach look good.

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Lew

You'd be real ugly if you were my coach then. :-)

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In 1984 in my first ever pro race, the Penrod's Triathlon in Ft. Lauderdale, I ran the 10km split in 31:02. This race was similar in set up to today's ITU races (minus the draft legal part). The bike consisted of 4 laps up and down the coast highway, and the run was several laps inside of the bike course. There were also some elite relay teams and Greg Meyers and Thom Hunt battled it out for the relay team win on the run, both running low 29's for th 10km on what was supposed to be a certified course. I think Monty might have done the swim leg for one of the relay teams? I know John Howard was also on one of the relay teams. I think I was about 15th overall, came out of the water 10 minutes behind Scott Molina (I had just learned to swim that summer) and finished the race ten minutes behind him. Three months later I ran a 29:52 for an open 10km on the roads.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

I have no first-hand info - but I do remember that item from his bio. I've asked slowman if he knows where Harald is now - and if he does, we'll just ask him directly. Is it possible he ran the time in a road race while in college - or grad school? If it wasn't done in a school meet - or if it was done after he used up his collegiate eligibility, it wouldn't be reflected in the school records.

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Lew

[reply]I was going to jump on 28:XX thing at Cornell as well, I'm don't remember what the school record is, but I know Brian Clas never ran sub 29:00, and that 29:5X by my teamate Dan Danbrowski was still in the top 10 all time.

Class of 02[/reply]

I'm still in the top 10 in the high jump outdoors (from 1979, when I was 3rd all-time), last I checked. Could have been bumped out this year, though.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

In reply to this entire thread:

there are three kinds of measurement - metric, imperial, and triathlon.

there is no way that anyone breaks 30 min for a real 10k off the bike. Courses are short, as simple as that.

I say this as a ex runner who placed 5th in the Oly trials in my country, and someone who has broken 2:20 for a marathon.

If people could do this, then they could run ~ 28 mins for 10k. Wow. That's a lot of Olympic 10k finalists floating around in another sport. I know Craig Mottram very well (bronze in the 5k in Helsinki) and know what kind of a runner he is. There is no way that any triathlete could run at that level unless they gave up triathlon and were very very gifted and very very lucky.

So sub 30? No way. I reckon 32 mins on an accurate course would be about right.

Possibly 28:XX is the a 6 mile time? I know there have been a few of those.

Also, in agreement with the poster below - there is no way that many of the sub 30:00 10K splits are legit (maybe there have been a couple). As a former 31mid 10K runner turned triathlete, I slowed down approx. 1:30 (to 33:00) in stand alone 10Ks after switching my training. My splits in tris have ranged from 15:51 5K to 41:XX 10k within weeks of each other, so my faith in the accuracy of courses is low. I just don't believe that there are guys with sub 28:00 potential doing tris, much less a whole bunch of them. Sub 28:00 is just so ridiculously fast (there are probaly less than 50 people in the world at any given time capable of it) that someone could run 29 low on a legit course at the end of a tri seems far fetched at best.

In another life when I was a runner it was like triathlon - a long accumulation of strength over a number of years. I did the standard 100 miles a week, with the standard periodisation plan for the year (base, strength, race speed). I peaked at 220k once, but the trick was the whole week after week. Obviously, I was just a runner then.

The key was staying uninjured doing the volume. When I was at my best I managed 18 months without an injury.

Funnily enough, I have done tri's for about four years. I am yet to really nail the run in a race (1:17 for a half, 2:53 for an IM - I haven't done a short race yet).

Even more funny, I am now injured, with my first injury since I started triathlon.

I don't believe any of the low 29's either. If you will check my original post, I was proposing that the 2004 ITU worlds run course was pretty accurate. Don't know that for a fact, but I charted the splits of 20 elite women who did the race and compared them to the splits run by the same women on courses known to be accurate. The result? The accumulated difference was less than 1 second/athlete.

Based on that analysis (which admittedly could be flawed, if only because of sample size), the run splits of Bevan Docherty (29:54) and Ivan Rana (29:56) were pretty impressive.

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Lew

"If people could do this, then they could run ~ 28 mins for 10k. Wow. That's a lot of Olympic 10k finalists floating around in another sport. I know Craig Mottram very well (bronze in the 5k in Helsinki) and know what kind of a runner he is. There is no way that any triathlete could run at that level unless they gave up triathlon and were very very gifted and very very lucky."

I don't think that is necessarily true that a triathlete capable of running a 30 minutes triathlon 10k would be able to run 28 minutes in an open 10 k. I know of an Olympian triathlete whose triathlon running splits improved after he made each single run workout a brick (in other words, every time he ran, he made sure it was of the bike). In that case, the running speed in a triathlon leg does not necessarily translate into a faster open 10 k.

Tim Don has run 8.06 3000m. Docherty and Kris gemmel have run 14.3x 5000m. Apparently Lessing has run 28.5x for 10000m. The top few runners in the sport can no doubt go low 29s for 10k on the track/certifed 10k race. Why wouldn't they be able to run 30 flat off the bike? After all they train so their triathlon run times are as close as possible to their stand alone times. Those top guys are very talented/hard working and low 29min 10k ability is not out of the question for them. As a former high level runner I thought you'd understand that 29min ability and low 28min ability is worlds apart... kinda like 35min 10k compared to 39min.

I am not, in any way, questioning the ability of any of the high level 10k off the bike athletes. At all, in any way.

I just think, and I have no science to back me up on this one, that it just can't be done. I base this on experience, and my understanding of running. I may be wrong in some people's view, but that's ok. it's just a debate after all.

Craig Mottram has broken 13 mins for 5k a number of times. He did an Oly tri last year (Noosa) and ran 32:xx. Now I suppose you could say that he doesn't train for tri's at all, which is more or less true, but I defy you to find more than a half dozen faster 5/10k runners in the world. That's what he ran that day. He had the fastest run split of the day (beating Craig Alexander - who can leg it ok) so that's all I can offer as evidence.

I am probably still a runner at heart. I just think it can't be done if the course is accurate. As I said, I think there are three kinds of measurement - metric, imperial, and triathlon.

That's not to say that the fastest runners in triathlon aren't great runners, but it's another sport.

I don't think anyone doubts that top tri guys can run sub 30 stand alone on a track, but low 29 at the end of a tri is more like 28:00 stand alone on a track. As you said 28:00 and 29:30 are worlds apart.

Results don't lie. Are there any printred results of a triathlete running a sub 29 min 10k on a certified course, while in the middle of their triathlon season?

Paul Amey has the ability to run sub 29 min for a 10k, but not in the middle of training for triathlon.

I remember in college, there were always the runners that had these great times run over the summer, or some unknown race. The best thing about computer technology and the world wide web, it is much harder to lie about your performances.

I never said they could run low 29 in a tri or that low 29 in a tri was equal to 28.00. There have been recorded results of sub 30min runs in a tri (worlds 2004). Why is it so hard to believe that these guys who, without doubt some can run low 29s whilst in top tri shape, couldn't run 30sec or so slower then their stand alone 10k PBs? Especially off of a easier than normal bike. I think the majority of those who say it can't be done are thinking about this relative to themselves and how they struggle in a tri run compared to a fresh run. Though we need to remember the top tri guys are the best for many reasons some of those reasons are they are more effiecent than the average and can run very close to their potential in a tri run.

Yes, I was on the team that beat John Howard and Tom Hunt, but I was the cyclist. It was a winner take all race, $5000 to 1st, cameras for second. I called Greg Meyer and Charlie Graves and made the pitch to them, and we went for it. On the other team it was Dale Bascescue, John Howard, and the world record hloder in 10k, Tom Hunt. I was a bit nervous because Greg was a marathoner, but he looked me straight in the eye and said, "You get me an even start with Tom, and I will beat him". Every leg came down to the wire, and bu the end of the bike, John and I had attacked so many times for a few second gap, we were trashed. Probably rode the fastest 40k of my life that day, low 50 minutes or so. We sprinted across the line together and the race was on. They ran stride fo stride, very similar to the Ironwar of Scott and Allen, then with a mile to go, Greg smiled at me and put the hammer down. Unbelievable head to head race, I;ll never forget it...

As for tri runs, virtually every course is off one way or the other. Race directors are just not concerned with exact distances, and no governing body makes them be. There is no way to compare times of todays athletes, or with the great running triathletes of the past. I will say that in a "non drafting" triathlon, that Mark Allen, and Greg Welch, were the two fastest, and toughest I've witnessed, including todays athletes......They always found a way to win, even against many who were faster pure runners....

[That's not unheard of for a triathlete, by the way - if I remember correctly, Harald Robinson (4th at the 1991 worlds) ran 28:xx while on the track team at Cornell.]

I found Harold Robinson (running a venture capital firm in San Mateo, CA). His answer to my query?

" . . . My policy is never to deny a really, really, really good rumor.

"Sadly, this one is so good I feel compelled to set the record
straight.... you are out of your freakin' mind (Lew: I had proposed that possibility in my e-mail message to him). I would be surprised if
any of the triathletes I knew (including myself) were below about
29:30. I actually do not have an official 10k track time as I ran the
mile, 3k and 5k in college."

So, mea culpa. Either my memory is faulty - or I remembered fine, but the information was faulty in the first place. Nonetheless, I still think the 29:54 for Bevan Docherty at 2004 Worlds is legit.

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Lew

Tell him to quit wasting his time behind a desk and come back to racing. We need to sick Robinson, Riccitello, and Pigg on each other again to satisfy our blood lust.

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I raced in the elite race at London a couple of weeks back - course was between 500 and 1000m short.

Check out the splits for the ETU cup in Zundert in June - I think Will Clarke went close to 30 mins - it's a pretty accurate course.

Also, the Echternach ETU race is on a certified IAAF 10km course, have a look at the top guys' times there.

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"Language most shows a man: Speak, that I may see thee. It springs out of the most retired and inmost parts of us, and is the image of the parents of it, the mind. No glass so mirrors a man's form or likeness so true as his speech." - Ben Jonson, Timber, or Discoveries made upon Men and Matter.

This thread brings to mind two words: (sp?) Jann Million.

Of course, these were duathlons, but sweet lord of all considered holy could that cat move.

I agrree, Jan Million was one fast mother! But as an example, he ran 15:17 for his final 5k at the 1999 world champs in NC. I ran 15:27 on the same course 1 month earlier.

One thing I have not taken into consideration in running sub 30 off the bike, is the difference between triathlon and duathlon. I am guessing it is considerably harder coming off a run-bike than a swim-bike.

I do know that it has taken me much longer to recover from a duathlon than the few tri's that I have done.

Anyone agree or disagree?

You know I'm biased similarly, but I would think a run-bike precursor is going to be much more devastating to the final run than a swim-bike.

Back to Million, I think he could hold that same pace for a finishing 10k. If I get some time tonight I'll dig into some results. I'm thinking that he had a low 28 and change PR on the track.

i think bevan docherty has raced track nationals here in nz..i can find out what his times are if you want ;)

Awesome! Then I can finish my dissertation!

Actually I was thinking along the same lines with Yann Million. I think he is on the French all time list for 10k. We can get Francois to create some sort of algorithm to calc for Pro and AG'r... SHIT! But what if the athlete competed as a pro sixteen months prior?! Awwwww....

Another thing to consider is that the run courses where guys have gone 29 probably were pancake flat, and huge squares. These runners almost definitely spent most of their time running in a straight line and very little time turning to slow them down.

To whoever said the fastest guys could only run about 32....my bet is that there are probably 100 Pro triathletes that can run a 32 off the bike on a legit course.

well i should probably know for sure how fast some of these top triathletes can do a straight 10kms in in a few days.



i'll let you know. ;)

In an article I read on Mottram he said his 10k time went up to 29mins on the triathlon training for Noosa last year. He noted how it scrubed that bit of extra speed off that top 10k runners have. I think he ran a 32min 10k leg at noosa.

I have heard the Benny Van Steelant might have run a sub 29min 10k. Unsure if this is true, but even if it is not he is one scarrily fast runner - looking foward to watch him and Tim Don striding it out at the Duathlon Worlds next month.

didn`t mark allen run a 31ish 10k chasing down pigg ( triathletemag july issue or june i think) on a fairly accurate course they said....non-drafting race then

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"Pain is NOT temporary,you remember every bit of it"

<< didn`t mark allen run a 31ish 10k chasing down pigg ( triathletemag july issue or june i think) on a fairly accurate course they said....non-drafting race then


I've got those results somewhere, just can't seem to find them right now, but at Hilton head, 1988 I believe, Mark Allen ran a 30:58 to chase down Mike Pigg.

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Mike Plumb, TriPower MultiSports
Professional Running, Cycling and Multisport Coaching, F.I.S.T. Certified
http://www.tripower.org

Strictly for accuracy sake, the number of times Mottram has run under 13 is 2 (which is indeed anumber), and quite a few people have fast PRs.



Styrrell

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Styrrell