i wouldn't pace line in the aero bars unless practicing for a TTT

but big rocks like that in the road might take you out regardless. it happens.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Yes, as you have said... aerobars make it more difficult to signal. Additionally, I've found that it's more difficult to reaction-steer while in aero.

A couple of other disadvantages:
1. You can't brake while in your aero bars. I'm not saying that being on the brakes would have prevented this, but it's nice to be able to touch your brakes quickly if something comes up on you while you're in a paceline.
2. With more weight over your front wheel, it's going to be less likely to roll over the grapefruit-sized asphalt, and more likely to send you rolling over the handlebars.

Sorry to hear some of your riding buddies took it pretty bad and will be out for a while...

I'll leave the discussion to others as to whether or not you belong in the paceline if the only way you can stay in it is in the aerobars :)

I have noticed this in the group rides here. Nobody ever plans for the upcoming obstacles. They direct the entire group right towards them and then go around them at the last second instead of planning the group path away from the large chunks sitting in the middle of the road.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

OK, I'm going to sound like a self absorbed roadie ass, but so be it. The only cause of the accident as described is riders outside there skill level. If you need someone to tell you there is something in the road to avoid then you have a serious problem. If you are on aero bars in a pace line - you have a serious problem. Let me guess - when someone yells "clear" at an intersection the rest of you put your head down and go without looking yourself? You are responsible for yourself on the road, no one else is. As for the wind and pace line, we ride a lot faster than 19 mph in some not so nice wind and no one says a word or uses hand signals. Again - rider and group skill.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Spot on. I was taught many years ago that what is "clear" for one rider is not "clear" for another. Each rider needs to evaluate the turn himself and not rely on what others call out.

AS for riding aerobars in a paceline, I can't think of something much dumber.

Great blog below on the lost art of the Group Ride.

http://carolinacyclingnews.com/...t-of-the-group-ride/

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Great link. Thanks.

that link..i was trying to explain this concept to my wife. that some people's group rides they just want to go for a nice ride

and she was like "but, what about zone 12? how do I get ready for the next race? what of the crushing of dreams?"

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

pat your self on the back, then add something worthwhile to the dialogue. You must always have been experienced and fast. I was leading and keeping it at a decent pace to keep the group together and foster improvement in some less experienced riders. I'd love to ride you off my wheel to prove a point.

So you're saying you ride in a pace lined group ride and no one signals anything? Everyone is on their own 100% of the time?

Interesting, as I've never once gone on a group ride with experienced riders and not had some type of signaling system (hands, voice, head movements). Impressive, no doubt about that!

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Aerobars in a paceline in traffic no less, what's the name of the group "Team Deathwish"?

Absolutely crazy, I think if I was training for something like a team TT (the only reason I can think for doing such a thing) I would want to practice only on closed courses that have be ridden by all the riders in the team so everyone knows where the obstacles are (if any).

I would never ride [close] with another cyclist in a pace line if he/she wants to use aerobars.

I ride a TT bike in one of my local group rides, but I never go down into the drops unless I drop off the back on purpose to do so. I always have my hands near the breaks. I am totally not aero, but I at least get to have the legs get used to pedaling in my TT setup. I don't have a road bike because I'm only riding to get better at triathlons.

They accept me fine under those conditions. I'm think they'd start whispering amongst themselves if they saw me in the drops while sucking on someone's wheel.

I am totally not aero, but I at least get to have the legs get used to pedaling in my TT setup.

_______

Is sitting on the bullhorns for 90% of a ride getting your legs prepared in the "TT" setup? Sitting up on the bullhorns and riding in the aero are 2 completely different positions.

Are you getting your legs prepared for cycling? Sure

Are you getting your legs prepared in the TT position when your sitting in the bullhorns? I would have to say that would be debateable.

It's a great position to be on in a group ride when all you have is a TT bike, I'm just not sure your actually preparing your legs for the TT setup if your on the 'horns the whole time.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Agreed. I only do that ride 2-3 times a month max. I feel like I get some benefit out of it -- mostly as a longer ride.

My Group (mostly Triathletes) will always ride their full tri bikes or road w/clip ons during our training rides. We usually try to space out a bit and not bunch up in a tight paceline. When things do bunch up...guy on the front can ride in aero's....and anyone falling off the back (sometimes guys will fall back on purpose so they can ride in aero position)

But like a few others said, sometimes these things happen and there isn't much you can do about it. In this case, if the rider leading the group could have identified the obstacle earlier and steered the peloton out of harms way, it would help alert the group that something is coming and nobody has suddenly swerve out of the way. As a rider who's not leading the paceline, its still their responsibility to be watching more than just the tire in front of them too, which is hard to do in the aero position.

Hope your buddies heal up quickly!

When my roadie friend posted that link to Facebook, I asked if a "small ring" meant a 53 tooth instead of a 54

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IG: idking90

Sorry dude, and sincerly sorry for those hurt, but, if you are an experianced rider you should of not let them ride a paceline in aero positions in traffic. If they wanted to, you should of left the ride. I do not mean to sound harsh, but how are unexperianced riders supposed to know its not smart to do that with traffic unless someone speaks up. My two cents. I sincerly do not mean to offend

Yes, among other things, being in the aero-bars in a pack / group ride is one of the primary causes for this accident. The other things are: lack of experience amongst all of you. Those in the tri bikes should have been holding the base bars and if they wanted to ride in the aero bars then they should have kept their distance. For those in the road bikes they should have steered clear of the guys on the aero bars following someone else. Riding 3,000 miles in the summer doesn't correlate to experience and wisdom - it simply means they rode 3,000 miles this summer. If I happened to be riding the same road as you guys were riding and you passed me, I would have stayed off your entire group as soon as I saw those riders in the aerobars in the middle of the pack. Absolute recipe for disaster.

I ride in my aero bars all the time but I keep a 20 foot distance from the rider in front of me for two reasons: (1) My reaction time riding close to the guy will be too slow in terms of braking and in terms of avoiding obstacles, (2) I ride aero to be strong as an individual rider without the benefit of a draft. What's the point of being in an aero position if you are drafting anyways. This only makes sense if you are practicing TTT. Note that even the pros practicing and racing TTTs in aero positions crash.

Civil enough?

.

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.....~_.o^,....(...)./.(...)......._/\...

It's why I haven't gone in a group ride in 14 years. Last time I went, I was 4th in a double wide pace group, rider in front of me did not signal obstacle, he moved left, I headed straight into big rock on the road going about 22 mph. Flipped my bike, landed on my tail bone, broke two discs in my back, took two years to recover. Yep, you guess it, guy in front of me was on his aero bars. So no more group rides for me, not worth it because there is always someone who is inexperienced, on their aero bars, and dangerous.

To be brutally honest, people who ride on their aero bars in a group, deserve themselves.

I refuse to ride in a group with people who ride on their aero bars.

IF I'm in an unfamiliar group and some dickhead ahead of me is on aero bars, I leave a huge gap, until I can get out of the group.

In a group I used to ride with, every time a new person would join in, we'd give them the rules. Not just verbally, I'd hand them a sheet of paper with our rules. Most of the rules were basic and common, but better to make sure everyone was playing by the same rules. One guy was a bit "slow" and would pull bonehead moves from time to time. So, we introduced a new rule. 3 bonehead moves (or breaking of the rules) and you were kicked out of the group! He got to two strikes and several gentle reminders before he got the hint. I don't ride with that group any more (they are too fast for me) but I heard from one of them the other day, that he's back up to 2 strikes! LOL

In your case, riding on the aerobars is a major factor in the accident. Quite simply, on the aero bars you

1. can't see up the road as well (to get as much advance warning as possible)
2. can't react as well or as fast
3. can't signal as well (if you're not lead dog that is)

How to improve safety?

1. Don't allow people to use aero bars in the bunch
2. Don't ride with people who break rule 1.

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

Touché.

Wow

Is see pace lining in aero as worthless unless they bring back Clearwater.

Really though, tri bars don't belong in the group rides with roadies. If you are riding with triathletes then feel free to use them, but make sure you are keeping the 3+ bike lengths between each other.

As for pointing out ALL obstacles, there is a core group of us on our team that really trusts each other. When the hammers are flying and heads are down I know whose wheel to stay directly behind and who I need to drop a little off and over to the side so I can see for myself.

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Tim

Looks like the truth hurts as much as the results of being stupid on a group ride. If being blunt doesn't give you the guidance you were looking for, then that's too bad.

As others have said, aerobars in a pace line in traffic is just dumb. As for directions in a pace line, not necessary if you are doing it correctly. By the way, riding in a pace line is not the same as a group ride. Different skills, different rules. The C group in the bike club rides in a group just fine, they would never be safe in a pace line, apparently like you and your buddies.

Which brings me to my point (again). If you think it is OK to ride in a pace line on aerobars in traffic, you have serious problems.

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"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Pick any of the following.....

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Thanks. Good "civil" dialogue. I think that much of what happened could have been avoided.

A leader needs to think and lead. I should have avoided that stretch of road.

Better decisions could have been made all around.

Maybe we all learned something. ;)

I have seen groups of triathletes training many times but not once can I recall a situation where they were all spaced out by three bike lengths. It always struck me as odd as that would be a great opportunity to learn how to legally pass and how to judge the three bike length distance.

Let's say you're in a 6-man break in a race, and everyone is rotating through. No one is calling out or signaling anything. Because you're focused on racing. But you're not just staring at the ass of the guy in front of you, so you are able to react as needed.

Well it's the same way when you're riding with a group that knows what they're doing. It's unnecessary to be constantly calling out "hole", "gravel", "road apples" or whatever ...

Even in a race guys will occasionally call out obstacles. Maybe its just the old guys. Here is how I look at it. Calling out or pointing at stuff is a courtesy, Like opening a door for someone. Its nice to do, but if you walk into a closed door because you were expecting someone to hold it open, well thats your bad.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

"The internet and a power meter do not replace 50,000 miles of experience, but try telling that to a fit forty year-old, new to cycling, on a $5000 bike. Or, god forbid, a triathlete. "

:D

so in this road race series this past spring there were two groups A's and B's.......there was an individual that could no longer hang with the A's so under the cover of the term "Mentor" was riding with the B's. He would CONSTANTLY yell at the group to attack or bridge or this that and the other. Annoying is the nicest word ANYONE could come up with. So, he's finally pissed me off verbally through out the last couple races and this specific race he was doing it again. On a looped course 4 loops/race, we have a 5-6man break away (why this "Mentor" that wasn't "racing" decided he needed to be in our break i don't know) the mentor was taking super short pulls right behind me in our break paceline. coming up in the road there was a big pot hole, the same one that had been there for 3 laps earlier as well as last week and the week before. it was set up perfectly. the paceline pulls right up next to the hole at speed the mentor is the last man on the pack, i'm right in front of him. at the last possible millisecond i 'swerve' 2inches to the left skirting the hole just barely. BAM pfsssssssssssssssst FU#$#!...........bye bye mentor! everyone said 'thanks'.

i know it was a dick move, but dude we've gone by that hole at least 15times before that?!?!

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Tim

I'm all for courtesy, but karma works also.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

Why aero bars and pacelines don't go together caught on video: http://www.youtube.com/...x=5&feature=plpp

you nailed it...
dick move.

LOL, love how the guy after recovering somehow didn't think "hmm, maybe I should be un-clipping myself now that I didn't eat road", what an idiot.

Let me ask a follow up question for the roadie experts. I typically ride my tri-bike in group rides within a pace line. My rule has always been that I stay on the bullhorns while in the line, but do switch to the aero bars when pulling the group. I feel like I can signal almost as quickly from the aero bars as the bullhorns anyway. Bad practice?

The answer depends alrgely on the make-up of the group, but overall, I think most would view that practice as acceptable.

The one thing you may wanna consider is that you are kinda screwing the guy behind you when you get in your aerobars. I've been behind guys with good aero positions and when they get on their bars, the increase in wind resistance is notceable. So the guy behind you is gonna end up working harder than most of the guys in the group. Not a huge deal, but....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I would not be happy sucking anyone's wheel when they're in aerobars, they can't react as fast to problems and would have more trouble recovering if they hit something unexpected.

Additionally I would also not accept someone in aerobars sucking my wheel, they can't brake/react fast enough if I need to do something unexpected.

Aerobars are for lone-riding or riding at a significant distance from other riders, it's as simple as that, if I had to put a figure on it, I would say go with the 2 second rule (be at least 2 seconds away from each other if you're riding "together" with people)... some might say "bah, 10m away from each other is fine", but people aren't generally as alert in training as they would be on race day.

While I still agree that aero bars are not to be used in a group, I do think that odds are quite high that even with a road bike in the mix, the accident would still occur. I've been in 3 similar incidents in the past 2 years, none of which involved aerobars, and not too aggressive riding.

I know on a roadie forum, everyone would pin ALL the blame on the aerobars, but while I think they certainly add to the risk, I do think it would be incorrect to attribute most of the risk to the aerobars - more often than not, in a fast line, things do happen even without the bars.

I especially like the "oh s**t" moment at 0:16. I'm sorry, but it's hard not to laugh. Glad he's ok though.

as i don't have a road bike (read poor student) i only ride on my tri bike, and that means group rides. i am never in my aero bars, unless i'm pulling off the front on a mega downhill. otherwise, i'm usually on the horns. i've never had any problems being able to shift my gears fast enough. it's just a courtesy, and i don't want to be blamed for ruining someone's season.

And the track people would pin all the blame on having brakes! :-)

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

the leader of the pace line is LARGELY at fault.

you knew all of them were pace lining you.

you knew many of them were on aero bars.

you knew all of them had limited reaction time, UNLIKE YOU.

you knew all of them had limited view of the front, UNLIKE YOU.

you knew all of them were relying on you, to a huge extent, as a leader and for their safety.

you knew all of them were relying on you FOR ALL THE WARNINGS.

you knew you could have slowed down.

you knew you could have avoided the rock farther.

you knew you could have shouted as loud as you can (I always do as a pace line leader, ALWAYS. the longer the line / bigger the group, the louder)

and because of your omission to do any of these BASIC THINGS ---- SERIOUS INJURY TO OTHERS HAVE RESULTED.

the worst part was --- doing these basic safety measures was not going to cost you anything. NOTHING AT ALL.

yet look at the resulting damage and injury for omitting them?

YES, YOU ARE LARGELY AT FAULT.

andrew

If that dude had just stayed in his bars he would have been fine. Looked like when he grabbed for the drops he chunked it. Regardless of the gear there are just some people that you really do not want to ride in close proximity to. The nice thing about things like that is that it always seems to be the jackass that gaps and hits your wheel from behind that goes down.

Totally agree with you Andrew. In the air force, in formation flying, were taught as the lead you are the eyes and ears of the group as those behind have to focus more on those in front of them. Lead only has to navigate the space safely and the rest should sort itself out. As lead we were always taught to avoid sudden and abrupt movements if able and to think way ahead of the formation. I often resort back to those days when cycling in a group and think it helps to make me a better cyclist. If riders would think more about those behind them there would be a lot safer group rides.

Number one rule in formation flying....don't hit lead!

On another note, one of the clubs I cycle with won't allow aerobars in group rides...seems like a pretty sound rule to me.

When someone's pulling in aero at the front of the group, and I'm 2nd wheel, I'll typically give them a big gap (or just let them drift right off the front entirely). I don't trust them to signal fast enough and I want a clear view of the road. As soon as the guy gets into the bars I consider them temporarily out of the rotation and I'm now leading the group.

Somewhat in the guys defense, he had a severe issue with his front wheel. You can see the broken spokes flapping around after the contact and the wheel becomes horribly out of true. Any number of issues could have caused the endo at that point....spokes getting jammed in the brakes, partial wheel collapse, etc.

Not excusing his jacka$$ riding, but I dunno how much he can be criticized for the endo......

Note: I had the same reacion as you when I first saw the vid..."Why the hell does he grab a bunch of brake then? Fookin dyot!" Then I went back and looked a little closer at the scene. He is lucky he made it as far as he did on that wheel.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Wow - remind me to never ride with you. Dick move. What if he had actually gotten hurt? It's people like you that give roadies and triathletes a bad name.

I was referring to jackasses in the general sense rather than that particular guy. The error was gapping and hitting the other guys wheel. After that his did look shredded and I agree that he was lucky to slow it down a bunch before the endo. Assuming no broken collar bone that is actually a pretty good way to end that scene, way better than a bunch of road rash.

+1

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http://www.jt10000.com/

I'm a "roadie" and pin the blame on the riders. All the same. I don't understand why people freak at aerobars. Use the appropriately, within your skill level. I've done plenty of TTTs and know it's possible to use them safely, if done with skill and focus. Like not being on them in the middle of a line unless you know the road and are confident with the other riders.

The problem is too many people use aerobars at the wrong times, or with too much weight on them for the road conditions they're riding in.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

#COTDnomination

and in a road race, i'll attack every time there is a bad road surface. i guess i'm exploiting the fact that i have good bike handling skills and others don't, perhaps i trained them better? in the same sense i would suggest anyone that is faster than your fellow racer to slow down, because it's unfair that you are faster......

i learned a long time ago that we ALL race the same course. it's our own job to get around it as fast as possible.

nobody EVER pointed out shit when i was racing motorcycles? they didn't signal when they were turning or stopping or if they were running over a guy in front of them.

i guess all those guys were dicks too......... i should have never raced with them either.

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Tim