I would hate to win because my competetor lost his chain, yes, I think dick move.

Yes he should have. Dirty riding. Further cements my negative opinion of AC.

Poor form. No class.

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Suffer Well.

You mean waited while Menchov and Sanchez rode away from him?

Almost funny, Phil and Paul are arguing with each other.

Phil - It's OK for Contador to take off.

Paul - It's poor form for Contador to attack.

Phil - You're wrong, Paul.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Absolutely should have waited. Now if he wins there will always be an asterix on the win and if he loses then he'll have failed even with a dick move like that.

This ^^

SRAM - what can you do?

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

did AC KNOW that schleck dropped his chain?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

AC went first and as the defending champion I refuse to believe that if he had sat up Menchov and Sanchez wouldn't have followed suit. His sprint past AS gave the others permission to follow.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I think he did...he was right there when it happened

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Member of the Litespeed Factory Team
www.litespeed.com

Poor form by a man who was just starting to be put to the sword by Schlek. The guy has no class. The signs of a scared man. Man I hope he gets booed going up for Yellow. I wasn't really following anyonw up until now. Now I hope he crashes in the TT.

AC saw what happened or heard it on his radio. To attack the yellow jersey when is has a mechanical problem shows that AC has zero class.

I think from the arm chair perspective yes, he should have waited. It will be a topic of debate for years to come. Who instigated the attack? Who responded? It was a slippery slope for Contador, as soon as the group formed he had his 2nd place at risk.

What a great ride by Voeckler!

I knew that thread was coming...how funny...I guess some should stop listening to Paul and his biases...

AS attacked first. AC didn't see the attack (not sure what the heck he was doing on the other side of the group), he sees AS go away, goes for it head down. Not even sure he knew about AS's chain.

Anyhow, Shleck would have done just the same.

Worse, he was BEHIND AS when the chain was dropped. Previously, the real contenders have stopped when mechanicals happen that affect the yellow.

It comes down to being a dick move by AC. Way to be gentlemanly, in a sport that has prided itself in the past for such acts.

Would you stake the TdF on that? What if AC had sat up and Menchov and Sanchez blew by, and took a chunk of time out of him? Menchov can TT and isn't that far behind. AC can't afford to play around and give him a bunch of time.

What happened to AS sucks, no question.

Total dick move...bad bad bad...You don't attack a mechanical like that...terrible.

Let it go...AC is a dick..the reasoning is as follows: AC beat Lance last year. Became a dick in the process. And nothing he does can change that. Shleck would have done the same. Lance would have done the same.

Go rewind and watch again. AC rides face up the whole way up to AS and when he reaches him has to swing way off his line to go avoid AS on AS' left because by that point AS was virtually stationary. There is no way he didn't know he'd had a mechanical.

As to whether or not Schleck would have done the same I've no idea.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Mostof what ive been reading is what Ibelieve to be true. , He saw the chain then gunned it. Sad day for schleck.

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Strava:https://www.strava.com/athletes/20890878

Did Saxo Bank wait for Contador/Armstrong when they had problems on Stage 3?

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Very poor form by AC. If he waits for AS the rest waits too, no question.

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T1bicycles
Cycling and Triathlon Accessories
Import and Wholesale
Dusseldorf
Germany

No kidding. AC was chasing down AS. Not like he was going to pull up and ask him what's happening.

Missing the important point here. What kind of chain was it and what kind of derailleur? Isn't it about the bike? The actual bike?

No but he had the option to try and halt attacks and the cameras would have shown that - he was with all the other contenders when AS attacked so he wasn't giving anything up. If Menchov and Sanchez had blown by the best climber in the world wouln't have had much trouble matching them up to the summit and then he could descend with them as he ended up doing anyway with a clean conscience.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

same thought here. so predictable.

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_________________________________________________
CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Stage 3: Armstrong was not considered a contender. Contador did not crash, had no flat, no mechanical. No reason to wait.

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T1bicycles
Cycling and Triathlon Accessories
Import and Wholesale
Dusseldorf
Germany

I'm no Lance fan, far from it I think he is an egomaniacal prick.

With that said I don't know AS or LA as you apparently do so can't attest to what they would have done.

If you watched it happen it's impossible for AC not to have known he had a mechanical. He had to dodge AS in the process of him stopping.

Looks like everyone forgot AS attacked first.

AC - hey man, what happened? Your chain dropped when you attacked me?

AS - yeah man, that sucks

AC - OK, I'll wait. You want to replay it?

AS - sure, thanks man.

Geeee...it's a fucking race...Bad luck for Shleck? Yes, of course. Poor form? BS...I guess everyone on this forum did buy the Lance media machine, saying AC was a bad sport. What a load of crap.

What a douche move...

I would not expect any other behavior from a potential tour winner. You use all weaknesses of your opponents!

Just curious if you watched the same stage 3 as me? AC made out well in the cobbles, LA got pooched (although with his handling, it may have been inevitable). Also there was general consensus that a mechanical on the cobbles was more of a situation normal as opposed to a mechanical happening that affects the race like this one did.

Look back in your history of the tour. During Lances reign it happened, before Lances reign it happened. If the leader of the tour, who is a true contender has a mechanical, then the group he is in waits. ESPECIALLY if they are contenders themselves.

The real winner here is Shimano (PINK FONT)

thats how I see it.

For some it has nothing to do with Lance vs AC. We're also perfectly capable of making up our own minds free of other's (Sherwin's) influence, in fact done well before their comments went to air.

I don't buy that he wasn't aware of what was going on. He was that far back after AS's surge to have time to see what went on. What little he couldn't interpret (his mind being cluttered by wrestling bears and eating gels etc) would have been conveyed to him by team radio very smartly.

AC is the worst culprit, but DM and SS are also to blame.

Remember when Zabriski crashed in the TTT and it put L.A. in yellow? He refused to wear the yellow and race officials said he had to or he could not start. At least L.A. had some class.

I hope that this means that its open season on Contador.

the root of this whole problem is ShitRam

If you're going up a hill and drop your chain...isn't that your own fault?
Personally I wouldn't consider that a mechanical I'd call it poor bike handling/shifting.

granted I don't know exactly what happend as Ive only read some tickers. But if I drop my chain in a race I expect to lose time...that is why you train to not drop a chain.

But i will say that the tour is known for not attacking the yellow with mechanicals...so can see why some think AC is a bit of a dick. But I'm not so sure. If AC was behind and saw Andy drop his chain...why not go. that is a mental error.
If the chain snapped I guess that is different. did that happen?

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________________
Blogging

Why are you intent on attributing to Lancelove to everyone who is critical of AC? I'm a big fan of AC, can't stand LA, but throught that was a dick move. Do you admit now that AC knew AS had a mechanical or are you glossing over that now?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I thought it was very poor form.

@CarlSpackler, I think it was more of a case of Menchov and Sanchez following Contador's lead. If AC tried to slow those guys down and they keep the gas on, that would be one thing, but that is not how it played out.

Just saw the replay. No question that AC saw AS's mechanical and gunned it as he passed AS. You can't argue that AC had no choice because of Menchov and Sanchez. They were forced to go because of AC's move. Very low class move by Pistolero. Just not sporting.

Wonder why he just got booed off the podium then? Bunch of Lance nut huggers in France too I guess?

He just did the pistol thing as people were booing when he put on the yellow, DOUCHEBAG!

AC was actually winning me over in the past few days, and I was hoping to see him win. Now I hope he rides off a cliff (not sustaining serious injuries) and loses 10 minutes.

Couldn't agree more. Sad to see the yellow jersey switch due to a fluke, AS was looking like he could do more damage to AC today. AC knows he can't hang in the hills with AS and is willing to do whatever he can, honorable or not, to win. Sad.

They need to redo the Specialized ad with AC and AS....

AS: My bike drops chains.
AC: My bike drops the yellow jersey when he drops chains.

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Suffer Well.

That was bad! ..it will be interesting to see how the rides and fans react to him over the next few days.

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Member of the Litespeed Factory Team
www.litespeed.com

Yep...just saw the replay too, and indeed, no way he wouldn't know.... At that stage Menchov and Sanchez were behind, only Vino was ahead of Shleck (aside from early attackers).
I stand corrected.

At the time (Stage 3), at least a few people thought Armstrong was a contender. He flatted and no one waited.

Contador got caught in a crash and then he limped in with a broken spoke/bad wheel. The bad wheel wasn't noticable to anyone else until the final meters of the race, but he lost time to A. Schleck.

Contador and Armstrong (and a lot of other folks) lost time while Cancellara drilled it to the finish with A. Schleck in tow.

Cobbles, hills, a mechanical is a mechanical. No fun for A. Schleck, that's for sure.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Ullrich would have waited...but this one is a toughy since a dropped chain is arguably not a mechanical per se...

Either way, it all adds up to enhancing the spectacle for us watching from the arm chair.

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Schleck can't expect his rivals to wait every time he fucks up, but this move stinks of fear and is unfortunate.

There's nothing better then when rivals dislike each other, so maybe this will prove the defining moment of a great rivalry in the years to come.

lol ....I don't think you'll ever see them doing a commercial together again...

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Member of the Litespeed Factory Team
www.litespeed.com

I'll agree that AC knew, but AS wasn't going to do any damage. Vino had closed on him before the chain dropped. AC was closing on AS before the chain dropped. The question is more, what the heck was AC doing with Shleck attacked??

There's the ST audience: "AC sucks, he MUST have known and HAD to do this to win."

Then there's the actual bike racer, Ryder: "that's bike racing, <laughing> nobody is going to wait."

Provided Tyler told him too ;-) (take that Lance)

Agree on this adding to the drama - Schleck said something along the lines of having a belly full of fire and wanting his revenge in the interviews.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I'm not saying that what AC did was unfair, just that AC must have known about the chain drop. Anyhow, a chain drop isn't really a mechanical...it's the rider's fault...

Here at work (bike shop) the name "Alberto Contador" has been replaced with "Little S**t"...probably for good now.

Question… Will the riders feel the same and work against Contador tomorrow or any of the following days?

> AC knows he can't hang in the hills with AS

Uh, maybe he can't beat Andy in the hills, but let's not overdo it. He can clearly hang.

When AC made the comments about Lance this year and his bad luck etc. I gained a little bit of respect, but all that just went out the window..... dick move.

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Agreed. Anyone have a link to the replay?

I was iferring that IMO AS had the legs to do damage today, not on that particular attack per se, but I feel he would have kept attacking all the way to the top to get a few more seconds on AC before the final tt. AS knows he needs to win the tour now, AC is just praying he can keep a manageable lead/deficit going in to the tt

I don't see it happening. They've been neutralizing each other rather well over the past few days. If anything AS will be thinking he should have tried to attack a long time ago.

Just saw the stage live and to me it looked like AS attacked AC because he was trapped in (dick move?) and Vino started chasing him. Then AC reacts and do a counter attack, AS is still on his bike and i don´t think anyone looks at the chain as you pass. Small road and lots of people. Then AC hears on the radio that AS have problem and slows down, you can see him riding and looking back all the way to the top. When he AC can see that AS is riding again he continues to ride. I think AC did the right thing, he could have put a lot more time on AS but didn´t. You can´t expect the riders to wait for each other all the time since you only got a few stages to make a difference and i think it´s fair AS lost some time because this "mechanical" is probably his own fault.

>>The question is more, what the heck was AC doing with Shleck attacked??

It was like Boonen / Fabian at P-R. Maybe that's where AS got that move.

Also, Menchov and Sanchez rode caught back up to AC, which seems to indicate that he didn't stay full gas. They haven't be able to match his attacks to this point.

I think he should have waited. SS & DM were at the time 2 + minutes down. He knew and he was only after putting time on AS. What I feel he should have done was wait for AS, then AS & AC should have caught up to SS & DM. I do not feel as strongly about SS & DM now waiting since the time differences. Also once AC didn't tell them to wait, why should they. It was AC's call to have them wait. 3rd & 4th place riders are not the patrons of the group.

I think all this did to AC is earn him bad karma. It shows how little AC truely feels about himself.

I agree it has been a great back and forth, but AS knew that 31 seconds wasn't enough and that he needed more time the next few stages. You will def see a more agressive AS now, but I think we would have anyway

They didn't attack knowing that Contador/Armstrong had a mechanical. The attack was on at that point. AC attacked (in my opinion) knowing that Schleck dropped his chain.

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f/k/a mclamb6

Sad day for Contador. If he had waited, he would have gained the respect of 99% of cycling fan. Instead, he is now seen as a total little shit by 99%. No one will forget or forgive that move. The European press will destroy him!

AC was already hammering because AS had attacked. It's not like AS and AC were riding, AS's chain dropped and AC went. It was a counter attack to AS's attack.

I don't think this one was a rider error. The way the back wheel popped up it looked like he might have hit a bump of some sort, maybe as he was shifting, and that caused the chain to jump. I recall in tours gone by, Lance waiting for Ullrich when he crashed and a group waiting for Lance when the fan snagged his bars on a climb and he went down. That is showing sportsmanship. There is no possible way that AC didn't see the chain drop since AS was pulled off to the side by the time he caught him and you could see AC looking behind after he went by. If AC had sat up and waited then everyone else would have too and a lot of the fans sent him that message when he pulled on the yellow jersey.

Exactly. First impressions - haven't watched and only read the cyclingnews text feed - AC et al knew it was a simple mechanical or should have known very soon afterwards and waited. If AS was not in yellow, the AC attack would be OK, but you just don't attack the yellow when they have a mechanical. It may be OK in other sports, but that's not how the TdF works.

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Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj

SCHLEK DID NOT LOSE THE YELLOW BECAUSE AC ATTACKED HIM ON THE CLIMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! AC only had 13 seconds at the summit - FS would still have been in Yellow. Andy lost it because he can't descend. End of story. I wish AC would have waited and put the screws to him on the descent instead, but unless AC wins the tour by less than 13 seconds that attack won't ultimately control the outcome. The descent however, may play a major role.

Contador is a douche.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

I've been an Contador fan since his '07 Paris-Nice win and also an Armstrong fan (but not a LA nut-hugger). I'm actually hoping for a Schlek overall win so we could have a great AC/AS rivaly for the next 10 yeras.

I am so disappointed in what AC did today. And unfortunately, I have to hear all the LA nut-huggers say "I told you so" for a while.

Go Andy!

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_____________________________

That's why I wear my Road I.D. while driving my Ford with Sync technology

Except that it never played out like that in the past.

Remember when Ullrich rode his bike into a ditch, and Lance sat up and waited on the descent?

Remember when the spectator caught Lance's handlebars with the Mussete bag and Ullrich, Tyler and the others waited?

Remember when Lance went across the field after Beloki's crash? The guys following eased up to let him get back on the group.

Alberto instigated the attack. He rode by Andy, who had come to a complete stop - it was obvious he had a mechanical. The fact that Andy had attacked first is a moot point. The bottom line is that it's unethical (in bike racing terms) to take advantage of the MJ because of a crash or mechanical. Had Contador waited like he should have, he could have signaled Menchov and Sammy to ease up. In that instance they would have not have ridden away from him, as Contador is one of the patrons of the peleton. His counterattack though indicated that riding hard was kosher, and so Menchov and Sammy followed. That said, I find it equally slimy that they pushed the pace as well. AC was not alone in the wrong-doing.

That said, I think the boos during the jersey presentation were a pretty good indication of how the move is seen in the eyes of the public.

As for the cobbled stage to Ardennes, mechanicals, crashes, flats and equipment selection are considered part of the race. Logical or not, it's the exception to an otherwise golden rule in the pro peleton.

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___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

I agree that AC was going hard to close that little gap, but it sure looked to me that AC gunned it again at a point when he had to have known that AS dropped his chain. I still don't see the comparison to Stage 3.

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f/k/a mclamb6

EXACTLY. Well observed.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Let me say further....

Looking back on another website, you can clearly see a set of photos that show that AC attacked KNOWING on the mechanical.

Also keep in mind what was said yesterday(?) by AC himself "Andy and I marked each other we are not worried about SS & DM"

So now he clearly attacked when the mechanical went down. I'm sorry, but this is what it looked like.

For decades the top-end European (now international) pros have always followed the omerta that contenders do not take advantage of another's misfortune. There are dozens if not hundreds of examples of this code being honored. Other sports (auto racing) may treat a mechanical as tough luck, but every TdF rider, every coach, every director sportif, every swanieur (sic) knows the right thing to do. That Contador didn't do it is confirmation to me of just who he is.

I think its a borderline dick move, but then again, didn't Saxo neutralize the field when Schleck was in trouble and then the next day when another GC contender (may have been Lance, pre crashes) was in trouble the picked up the pace?

If that's the case I would have went too.

You're flat out dead wrong. They finish together if they go over the top together. They put time into Schleck, b/c they had 4-5 guys pushing the pace. If Schleck is in that group, he doesn't get dropped.

The stage doesn't play out the same way if the group goes over the top together. I also think Schleck stays with the group by following others' lines (like AC did) versus having to take the line himself.

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f/k/a mclamb6

contador could have shown some leadership and stood them down, thats what a true champion would have done. lots of new shleck fans today, no doubt.

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http://www.PatGriskusTri.com USAT Certified Race Director
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Exactly!!!! Other people are talking of waiting after a crash, this was a dropped chain and totally different. In my mind if AS so strong then he should have been able to catch AC after getting going again. The only person to blame is the mechanic of Saxo.

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Contemplating a multi-sport comeback

And AC is going to easily beat him in the Time Trial

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

No way Schlek stays with them on that descent. He lost over half a minute doing EVERYTHING he could to catch up. Contador was on the front of that downhill train for a good part of it too.

All 3 of them knew he was having a mechanical, impossible not to, and all 3 attacked. All 3 should have waited, IMO. Uncool on all their part, IMO, and not just AC's part. But I agree that if Menchov and Sanchez went then Alberto had to go too.

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Attacking your rival because he isn't in proper position is a dick move. You can't be serious.

Watch the replay there is no shifting when the mechanical happens. This was not Andy's fault. Andy was almost to a complete stop when Alberto passed him, so there is no way that Alberto didn't know that there wasn't a problem. Alberto should have waited for Andy to return to the group and not return to riding. That was a classless move by Alberto and the rest of the riders in his group.

replay ... http://nos.nl/...na-pech-schleck.html

You seriously have no clue.

You are wrong. First, the descent wouldn't have been as fast anyway, if they were all together. Second, the benefit of following others' lines and drafting off them would be more than enough for AS to stay with the group.

Was this the first bike race you have ever watched?

Ha, you obviously haven't taken may 50mph twisty descents before. I have. Drafting, my ignorant friend, is far less important than bike handling. If you think AC got 30 seconds from drafting on a downhill like that I suggest you take your aerobars off and ride a real bike for a change.

I noticed you didn't say anything about following the lines of great descenders like Sammy Sanchez during the descent. You really have no basis for an argument because you are flat out wrong.

And I saw Contador carving out many of the great lines too. Especially early in the descent when they put a lot of time into AS

You look even dumber than normal when it's obvious you don't know what you are talking about.

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

The bad thing for Contador is, even if he wins the TT by 2 minutes over Schleck, even if he gains time over AS in the mountains, people will only remember this incident as why he won. I wonder if he'll get booed in Paris?

I'm not a big fan of AC, I see him and Lance as the last two of the previous generation that have had major success while almost cleanly shedding their past ties to doping.

Haha...right...

A group of 5 all working cohesively together goes down a mountain faster than a group of 3, where one is sitting on, another is visibly cooked, and the other is doing 90% of the work.

Each time you see AS tucking and coasting is costing him time, as the group up the road is always driving the pace. The slingshot effect of drafting from guys working together downhill is astounding, as it enables them to maintain a speed which is significantly faster than what one guy can do. There were numerous times when they would show AS tucked and AC's group was working together. This is how most of the time was lost.

At the level these guys ride at, descending and drafting are what determine how fast they go downhill. Go back and watch it again. The AC group is tight together, as they are sling-shotting past each other to constantly keep a high speed. They kept the best descenders on the front to take the best lines. The other competent descenders took turns rotating through. The less competent guys followed lines. Its not like AC's group dropped anybody out of it. What makes you think AS would have been different, getting gapped off and then dropped?

Just drop it. You are looking like a complete noob. Regardless of everyone's position on Contador's move you are the only one arguing he wouldn't have stayed with him on the downhill. Heh...they just decended together in the Alps...why didn't Contador just easily ride away?

Why am I discussing this non-point? GAH.

For what it's worth, Contador said that he really didn't know Shleck had a mechanical, and that he was constantly checking behind to see where AS was. When he heard AS had had a mechanical, it was too late and the race was on (dixit l'Equipe).

We get it. You have huge balls.

Your irrelevent 'mad descending skillz' aside, it's still a moot point. Andy shouldn't have been put that position in the first place. I agree that he's not a great descender, but if you watched the stage today, he did well for himself and took a lot of risks. JVB was working hard to stick on him - and he's normally a much better bike handler. The top was moderately technical, but then it straightened out for quite awhile. Over 20 kilometers, drafting makes a difference on any descent, and especially today on the lower parts of the descent. Having Sammy Sanchez's line (unanimously one of the best descenders in the business) to follow on the technical portion isn't so bad either.

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___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

Contador = Punk

He attacked first and the others followed his lead. If he had class and was a leader he would have had everyone slow down and wait.

Do you believe that? I think you posted that you saw the replay. I don't buy it.

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f/k/a mclamb6

Not sure anyone is going to win the wait/no-wait debate.

Having said that Andy should not have been in that position in the first place. He seems to be the strongest, but lacks confidence. To many games. When his last domestique moved off the front, he should have gone and not looked back, kept the hammer down till the top. If he had chain problems lower down the slope, more likely all would have come back together. It's like he is marking AC till the time trial and then we all know what is going to happen then. In retrospect, this may be the best thing to happen to Andy. "Anger in the belly", how long where you going to wait to unleash the beast?

Whatever. Shocking however that so many of you think AC should have waited for a guy who needs 30 seconds to put a freaking chain on, and probably a chain dropped by a mis-timed shift. This is all on Schlek, and as Liggett says there is no reason to wait for anyone within the last 20K of a race. None.

I don't really know. From the replay it's hard to say...I mean, watching that comfortably in a chair, it's hard to say. But when you're the one hammering things appear different.

Moreover, why not believe him? There are a lot of folks on this forum who have believed things a lot more unbelievable than AC not noticing... ;-)

You must really hate Lance to bring him into this discussion. Kind of like the people blaming Bush for the oil spill. Contador = Punk

How come AC didn't just descend away from the Schleck brothers last year on stage 17 in the final descent into Le Grand-Bornand?

http://www.broadbandsports.com/node/28172&gvsm=1

Yup, just like Andy should have told Fabian to hold off on the cobbles of Stage 3 when Contador had a broken rear wheel and rode the last 30km to lose 41 seconds...?

Shit happens. Andy dropped his chain... rookie move.

I don't hate Lance. But I like seeing how some here like to label people who disagree 'haters' right away.
Most folks here started following cycling in 99 (or 2000). And know pretty much nothing about cycling, aside from the comments of Liggett and Sherwen, who happen to really lack any insight.

It was my impression he was going to wait until Menchov and Sanchez took off.

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Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks

Wait, I thought he lost the time because of the descent, not because of the mechanical. Which is it?

And there's a difference between stopping (no one is arguing he should've stopped) and not attacking.

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f/k/a mclamb6

My god this is really getting dumb. Who was in yellow genius? Any reason for him to take risks and ride away from people who were BEHIND him. And you jokers call me noob. Triathletes. Geesh.

I have no pity for someone who doesn't ride with a chain watcher.

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"Yeah you point a finger back far enough and some germ gets blamed for splitting in two."

Colonel Saul Tigh from Battlestar Galactica

We can debate this indefinitely, but the bottom line is, none of us are professional bike racers, and I think we may need to defer to their sentiments on this - which I imagine will also be divided. Ligget, as entertaining as he is, was not a professional bike racer. Interesting that Sherwin, who was, disagreed with AC's move.

I was watching Eurosport and Sean Kelly said without hesitation that it was unequivocally the wrong thing to do.

I think it'll be interesting to see comments from the current peleton on. We already saw how the French fans felt about it...

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___________________
Twitter | Kancman | Blog

You must be new here...its his agenda in all cycling related posts. For the past 9yrs or so its been the same:

1. Demean Lance.
2. Tell american's they don't know cycling (strawman argument to reinforce point 1)
3. Defend/elevate Condator (or other great non-american rider at the time or historical cycling figures) while taking snide shots at Lance.
4. Insult VS coverage and preach that real cyclists watch an international feed all the while quoting Ligget and Sherwin (also making point 1 easier).
5. Demean Lance.

I can probably write his posts for him if he wants to give me his password. ;)

And in my first post I also said it would have been better if he had waited. Even Contador didn't think it was the right thing to do if you listen to his comments after. He said he sat up after he found out (which is clearly an admission that sitting up was the right thing to do. But, fact remains. Andy really doesn't descend worth a shit. And he really rode like a complete pussy the last two days. He attacks with so little mountain left that even if AC counters he would have a hard time getting yellow, yet knowing all along he will only have 2 stages left to put time into AC that he needs come the final TT. Does AS really believe he can TT. He TT's as well as he puts his chain on. He's not riding to win the TDF despite what he says. He's riding to hold the yellow as long as he can. He rode like a pussy yesterday and today.

Fixed that for you ;-)

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

Well, I can disagree with what AC did and it has nothing to do with LA. That's all I'm saying. In a sport historically full of dopers (ie, cheaters), it's interesting that they typically don't attack someone having a bio break or mechanical failure. This is one area where the group normally has class and ethics and it's an unwritten law that this type of thing is not done. In a way, you could say that what AC did was worse than doping. They all look the other way regarding doping but an act like this could stain AC forever in the eyes of his fellow riders.

Don't forget that Voekler was putting time into the Saxo-led peloton. AC doesn't need to go. Schlek does. But he waits to within 2 miles of the summit to attack? Even if he gets away he still gets caught on the downhill. Schlek was riding not to lose the yellow, not to win the tour. He will need a lot more "anger in the belly" if he wants to win.

And do you guys really think being booed bothers AC???? He eats up the bad boy role. Look at how much it hurt him last year to be despised - he just takes out the pistols and annoys the shit out of everyone, and uses it to his advantage.

AS's post on twitter:

"I lost yellow today!shit happens but the race is not over yet!!!I be back!"

Anybody read or hear anything else from him on how he dropped his chain?

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twitter

LOL!

Any comments from LA on this yet? LA should organize Radioshack to ride for Schleck now. Go Team Radioschleck!

Moreover, why not believe him? There are a lot of folks on this forum who have believed things a lot more unbelievable than AC not noticing... ;-)

AS says he wouldn't have attacked and you dismiss that out of hand but you believe AC?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

Francois, How was Schlecks interview in French? The English on was great, he was pissed. Said he couldn't wait to get revenge. Had he calmed down when speaking to European reporters?

Did AS wait for AC when AC's wheel was defective? How time did Saxo get that day? 40secs or so?

The interview in French (at least what I read in l'Equipe) was hmmm....well, he was pissed ;-)

He said that this was going to give him extra motivation in the coming days.

Well, as Hesjedal said in his post-race interview, "it's a bike race".



I'll make a prediction: LA will say it showed no class....

It was probably the last 2K available to attack in the entire race, and Schleck was already gifted 6 minutes on stage 2. It looked to me like Contador got off the gas when he saw Schleck off of his bike. And ultimately, it's not his fault that Schleck mis-shifted.

By the way, how many times did Cancellara wait for Chavanel when Chavanel flatted on the cobbles and Cance took the yellow jersey back?? None. Saxo didn't say anything then.

You mean when Frank "Human Roadblock" Schleck threw himself on the ground and slowed up Contador? That's totally different, since Cancellara said they were allowed to race that day....

Noticing a break pad rubbing the wheel is not as easily noticed as a dropped chain.

What happened today just shows that Alberto was very insecure about winning this year's Tour. Andy now knows that Alberto fears him.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

Good, I've become a huge Andy fan as of today. It should add to the drama of the Tour and overall be great for cycling for awhile.

I find all this talk about fair play interesting considering all the GC guys are drug cheats.

How exactly are you perfectly sure of that?

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I find all this talk about fair play interesting considering all the GC guys are drug cheats.

You could easily argue that that makes it fair.

We'll never know because AC made the decision, himself, to keep riding the wheel rather than stop for assistance. I have no idea when AC knew his wheel was broken or if and when AC was ever aware. There's also a big difference between waiting in stage 3 of a wide open race and waiting in stage 15 of a two horse race.

If everyone on ST knows nothing about cycling (because they ONLY started following it 1999 or 2000), if all we do is regurgitate Sherwin and Liggettisms (even though your beloved Sean Kelly said the same thing), if , as you say, you predicted this laughably naive thread would appear long before I posted it...then why do you bother?

Why don't you just get uli and Carl's email addresses and have your own little party?

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

It wasn't a brake pad rubbing. It was a broken spoke and the wheel becoming more out of true as he raced.

From my perspective... AC DID SIT UP. But Menchov and Sanchez didn't... so he had no choice but to follow.

Or very unfair to the rider now in the 10th position.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

Cn

When the spoke broke the wheel got out of true and "started to rub against the brake". Contador's own words.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I already have their email addresses...


AC answers: http://www.lequipe.fr/...e-ne-savais-pas.html

Let me see if I have this straight. Are you saying Frank Schleck crashed intentionally to slow Contador?

Hmmm...I guess you've never lost time going down a dead straight descent just because you couldn't close the gap to a group just prior to the descent, huh?

I have, and it's not like I'm totally "unaero" on my road bike or anything...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

It always happens to me. I guess it has to do with my braking all the time, because images of tires flatting and forks snapping arrive constantly as soon as the speed reaches 50mph.

"What happened today just shows that Alberto was very insecure about winning this year's Tour. Andy now knows that Alberto fears him."

This is my take as well. Lance, for example, never waited for a yellow jersey wearer OR contender while the race was still in doubt. Not in 1999, nor in 2004. He didn't even wait for Ullrich in 2001 after the race was decided. The only reason people say he did is because they believe what Lance tells them, anyone who watches the video would see him go with Beloki and Kivilev when they went by. But enough about Lance, the point is that the "rules" are not hard and fast, they are usually a matter of perspective and always open to interpretation.

In a way, this is justice because I don't really agree with the way Andy gained all this time on stage 3 after his brother blocked the favorites only to have Cancellara pull him to the finish, one stage after all the favorites waited for him.

An angry Schleck and a nervous Contador is great for us-and remember this is the Tour de France, ultimately the strongest rider is going to win.

Or very unfair to the rider now in the 10th position.

I agree on principle. My statement was based on the previous statement being true, that all of the GC guys are drugged. I guess if you go far enough down the line someone is getting screwed.

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

Brake pad rubbing - wrong. Broken wheel. Pretty hard not to notice a broken wheel.

AC said days ago the only man her feared was AS. Nothing today changed that.

AC has been riding like the race leader since the first mountain stage, as he should be. He is the leader of the race. All he needs to do is sit on AS's wheel and he wins. Every once in a while he test AS, but for the most part he's riding safe and smart. Schlek is riding like the race leader, and he'll lose the tour because of it. They go up today's final climb at a pace slower than Voekler, yet Schlek waits until the last 2 miles to go. Can ANYONE explain the logic of that. He isn't going to get much, if any time in such a short distance, and if he does gap AC, then AC will take him back on the descent. Schlek needed to go from way down. This is his type of climb. It shows that it's actually Andy Schlek who has the most fear. Not AC. AC is just riding smart. On the wheel all the time, looking for an opportunity to go if there is one, but not doing anything stupid. Great riding by him this year. He shouldn't have gone today, and he gunned the first 5 downhill km so I don't buy that he was really sitting up just following Sanchez, but I don't think he was obligated to. There's a difference between taking advantage of someone's misfortune and someone's mistake. You have every right to exploit a mistake. AS made a mistake today - bad shift followed by the lamest attempt to put on a chain that I've ever seen. Much different than a crash in a peloton where most who go down have down nothing wrong. LA had no obligation really to wait for Ullrich a few years ago - Ulrich crashed because he made a mistake. It was a classy, but unnecessary move.

That's your self-preservation gene expressing itself. That gene expression tends to increase the older you get ;-)

Now then...what I was referrring to above was no braking at all. It's pretty disheartening to see the group pull away as you're in a full-on aero tuck and going faster than it would be practical to pedal.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Dead straight descent??? I guess I was watching a different race. You don't think AC is good enough to gap Schlek on the downhill? Maybe you need to watch more than just the TDF each year.

I guesss I wasn't clear. The point I was making was that a group of riders will pull away from a single rider (which Schleck effectively was) even on a dead straight downhill. It's not so much about bike handling ability, it's about group aerodynamics.

You stated that AS can't descend and used today's stage as an example of it. I'm just saying that the gap from the Contador group to Schleck increasing on the downhill wasn't all about bike handling/descending skill...got it?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Here's what Barry Petchesky at deadspin.com had to say about today's stage:

http://deadspin.com/...manship-expectations

I haven't seen today's stage and was trying to avoid any seeing any results until I saw this headline screaming at me when made my once-every-two-months visit over to deadspin. So I read what Barry said then read through most of this post. I have no problem with AC dropping the hammer. The biggest bike race of the year is on the line. When it's time to go, you go.

Yeah, I got it and agree to a point. AC has the lead by 8 seconds. I bet his bike handling versus AS was worth double that today. Did you watch AS's aero "tuck". Horrible.

Funny to watch triathletes argue over this one. Did we see the lead women all pull over and wait for Chrissie in Kona when she flatted a few years back. How about for Normann when he couldn't get the tire off his wheel, maybe the entire men's pro field should have pulled over and helped him out. How many of you have stopped while a competitor who was leading the bike flatted or dropped his chain? It was bad timing, but ultimately it is our own responsibility to have our bike in good working order. In this case, the team mechanic. Maybe it was a bad adjustment, maybe it was just bad luck, who knows. Easy for us to call foul from the sidelines, but we don't know what was happening, especially in the heat of battle after 12miles of climbing. It's a race, it happens!

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Daryl
http://www.advantagemultisport.com

Quotes from Robbie Hunter on Twitter:

AC also had Sammy Sanchez to follow. Don't underestimate the value of following the line of an excellent descender...

Your aero tuck would be "horrible" too if you were all arms and legs like AS.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

He lost me at "I pay attention to cycling precisely once a year..."

Fail.

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Yet AC admitted AS had a "mechanical" (quoted because that was exactly what he said) on his interview on Versus.

Funny to watch triathletes argue over this one. Did we see the lead women all pull over and wait for Chrissie in Kona when she flatted a few years back. How about for Normann when he couldn't get the tire off his wheel, maybe the entire men's pro field should have pulled over and helped him out. How many of you have stopped while a competitor who was leading the bike flatted or dropped his chain? It was bad timing, but ultimately it is our own responsibility to have our bike in good working order. In this case, the team mechanic. Maybe it was a bad adjustment, maybe it was just bad luck, who knows. Easy for us to call foul from the sidelines, but we don't know what was happening, especially in the heat of battle after 12miles of climbing. It's a race, it happens!

You do realize you are talking about a different sport right? You might as well make a comparison to football.

I agree with you Francois.

I would also like to point out that the majority of the time gained was on the decent. 18 seconds at the top of the climb isn't indicative of Contador setting the pace on fire. It probably took 18 seconds for AS to get his chain back on. I think some people feel AC should have stopped alongside Schleck today.

In soccer you stop play if a player on the other team is injured by putting the ball out of bounds. Should a triathlete stop for another to get treatment for an injury?

You see how stupid that sounds comparing two different sports with different histories and traditions.

Contador would've clearly seen the chain drop if he would've utilized Hawk-Eye like tennis players do.

That's not the point because they were not in yellow at the time. You are not suppose to attack if the yellow jersey is down.

With all of this said, I will admit that in practice it is pretty much impossible not to take advantage of these types of situations in bike racing.

A few months ago, I was in a two man break in a crit. The guy I was with dug a pedal and almost went down. I was on the front, heard the commotion, and I attacked, held him off and went on to solo in for the win. I felt a little bad about it, but at the same time "that's bike racing".

The irony is that if he just crashed, then he could have gotten back in behind me on the next lap; "that's bike racing" too.

Thanks, but it was already perfect ;-)

It's different when the yellow jersey goes down because the yellow jersey is attacking and the yellow jersey makes a mistake withing 2k of the final climb. To sit up means you basically call off the stage for the leaders. Even the yellow jersey does not garner that much deference.

According to Velo News, A. Schleck was only 13 seconds behind at the top.

It looked like it might have taken more than 18 seconds for him to get the chain back on. (He needed two tries.)

It didn't appear that Contador, Menchov, and Sanchez (especially Contador) were going as hard as possible until they went over the crest of the climb. (They did drill it on the descent.) How long were they supposed to wait?

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Obviously this was just a case of the Saxo Bank Bike Motor mis-firing! Imagine if the motor properly engaged the drivetrain. Schleck would have put 3 minutes into Contador!

The swedish commentators said that he (AS) lost 40 sek b/c he lost his chain. If AC had 18 sek on the top it means he slowed down so AS got 22 sek back...

Based on recent history, until he was back in the group.

I actually blame Cancellara for this whole thing. If he had made the selection, he could've just neutralized the stage after Schleck had a mechanical.

I heard Cancellara was already maneuvering to neutralize the final TT for Schleck as well.

Tell me how Andy made a mistake? Take a look at the stage and you will notice that Andy wasn't shifting when the chain came off. Something very strange happened and it was not the fault of Andy.

I wrote that as a JOKE since on ST, everything AC does is a dick move and everything everybody else does is great tactics :-)

Precisely. Contador didn't 'attack', he just didn't stop. Any time a man on a bike stops and everyone keeps going there will be time loss. Not sure why people don't get this. Like I said, apparently people think Contador should have stopped and waited. Had Contador 'attacked' he would have had a minute and a half by the top of climb, especially if it took 40 seconds for Schleck to get his chain on.

From LA's interview:

"It is better to wait but this is different now because it was the last climb of the race and the race is on. I don’t want to make a hard judgment without having seen the images,” he concluded.

Assuming you are referring to Stage 3, was it OK for Saxo Bank (Cancellara with A. Schleck) to attack Chavanel who was in the yellow jersey when Chavanel had his three flat tires?

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

Uh no....

FWIW, (and as you say, not much around here), I agree with you and Carl.

With regard to proper bike racing etiquette, has anybody here noticed that even Contador seems to be admitting that the accepted thing to do in this situation is to wait? Now he is defending himself by saying that he didn't really know what the situation was (kind of hard to believe from my perspective), but even he isn't saying that it's okay to attack in a situation like that.

If you disagree with this, it's because you disagree with the tradition and the unwritten standards of behavoir within the pro peloton. That's fine, but I kind of feel like if you're not part of that club, maybe its better to just keep your mouth shut.

Have these descending genes be mapped yet? What are the regulating factors affected while you age? Awesome stuff tom :)

As for your second comment...I wouldn't t know. I can't descend at all.

Everyone including 'Berto...


http://www.cyclingnews.com/...-attack-on-the-bales

Ummm...right 'Berto...that's how it went down...mmmhmmmm....sure it did...

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Contador is a very little man. He proved that today.

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That's a shame, since you missed these two comments, which are True Gems!!!

Little Known American League rule from the 50s:
You don't hit the ball to center field in Yankee Stadium during innings in which Mickey Mantle's receiving a blow job in the bullpen

***

Miss Manners writes that etiquette should remain a vital part of the sporting landscape. She points to a contest in August 1926, when the St. Louis Browns delayed the game just long enough for Babe Ruth to alleviate his hangover by banging two flappers and eating three hot dogs with relish.

Not to be pedantic or anything, but that game was actually played in late July. Babe did recover enough to at least hit a home run.
[http://www.baseball-reference.com]

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

A great quote from one of the untouchable gods of ST:

@gvroomen: Contador just gained a great chance to win, but he lost the chance to win greatly.

Sometimes a "broken" wheel is very hard to notice, particularly when just one spoke was broken.

I was quoting Contador. He was the one that said that the problem was when "the wheel started to rub against the brake, but I didn't want to take a chance to stop and switch bikes,” (his own words). If you have a problem with that use of words, you will have to correct Contador, not me.

With only one spoke broken, sometimes it is hard to notice that a wheel is "broken". Check in this video when Contador arrives and you will see what I mean http://www.steephill.tv/...01&player=letour the comentator mentions a "punctured tire" other comentator said he "had a flat"

I reiterate that Contador's wheel starting to rub against the brake (because of his wheel out of true) was not as easy to notice as Andy's dropped chain. That is a fact.

Sergio

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Note: English is not my first language. Please read this translated post considering that.

I knew that thread was coming...how funny

I knew it too. Many here are looking for any reason to jump on Contador and now they are saying "I used to like him but now..." but really, they have resented him for the last few years.

OK, to summarize: Contador is a douche, Andy lacks the focus and attention to detail to beat Contador, Contador is in the driver's seat (but no one will wait for him now if he suffers misfortune), and the most boringly talented grand tour rider is quietly inching towards the podium (if not victory).

Menchov has got to love the fact that people are only talking about AC and AS. The way he is effortlessly following Contador in the mountains, I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see him win it all. After all, he could win the final TT, he has one of the best super-domestiques in the race, and he can strike if Contador shows weakness after having to respond to attacks from AS and Sanchez. He's in an enviable position.

It is entirely plausible to think that he in fact didn't know what to do. He is a cyclist who has raced primarily with a race radio and the reliance on team Director telling him what to do.

If you say that, it's because you have an anti-American and anti-Lance agenda. Actually, you must be French.

This is what Johan Bruyneel thinks by the way...

http://www.lequipe.fr/...l-pas-de-cadeau.html

Wasn't saying it wasn't plausible, just saying I don't believe it. In the moment I could see him missing it, but I don't believe that his DS did not tell him what had happened on the race radio within 15-20 seconds. That's the part I find hard to believe.

Can you translate Francois, or just paraphrase?

no gifts

Tell me how the 30 seconds it took him to put it back on wasn't.

The only thing that brings into question about the "code", is stage 3. Fabian (with Andy Schleck in tow), pushes and decimates the pace when the crash/mechanicals happened (yellow jersey involved). We all claimed that as just "bike racing on the pave". Now it seems we have some code of honor on not to attack like that on the mt top. Yet it seems like Saxo Bank themselves more or less use it for a convience (funny how Fabian was the leader of the Stage 2 relegation...it certainly helps when Andy Schleck was 5+ mins down after the crash).

So it seems like cycling/people wants to cherry pick it's "code".

So are we only killing AC because AS got a mechanical on a mt. top? It seems if this happens on the pave, all is fair in love and war?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Damn if you do, damn if you don't:

“My stomach is full of anger. The race I not finished and I want to take revenge,”. “I would not have raced like that and taken advantage of the situation. For sure, those guys don’t get the fair play prize today.” said Schleck.

“There are people who understand and there are those who do not. Today was circumstances of the race. I had already opened up my attack. The stage was already launched,”. “The peloton waited in Spa, but today the circumstances were different. I can understand why there’s polemic.” said Contador

“In the heat of the race and the finale, you cannot say to Contador, ‘wait for Andy.’ Andy didn’t wait for Contador on the cobblestones, either,”. “You can’t say to Sammy Sánchez, I’ll let you go because I’ll wait for the yellow jersey. No, there are no gifts in this race.” said RadioShack’s Johan Bruyneel.

“Sánchez and Menchov were going full gas. It won’t help to criticize. For us, it would have been better if they had waited, but we cannot expect any help in these circumstances,”. “I think Contador waited at the beginning, but it took awhile before Andy was on his bike again. How long can Contador wait? I don’t know. Of course we’d have hoped he waited more. I don’t want to create a polemic, but how many guys crashed today? Nobody helps them, nobody waited. That’s how it is.” said Riis.

“Off the record? That’s bullshit,” one former Tour rider said in between team buses.

“In 2001 I waited for Ullrich when he went down off the road,”. “But maybe this is different, because this was the last climb of the race, and it was really on. I don’t want to make a hard judgment without seeing the images.” said Armstrong.

“It’s hard to say. I didn’t really see what happened,” he said. “If Contador waits, the other guys have to wait, too. He needs to follow, of course. It’s a shitty situation.” said Riis.

“everybody was 100 percent.”
“When everyone is going 100 percent in the final, if Alberto waited, the others, Menchov and Sanchez, would keep going, just like they did yesterday,”. “It’s not really possible to wait.” said Vinokourov

“Contador just gained a great chance to win, but he lost the chance to win greatly.” said Gerard Vroomen“If Contador had waited he would have won the heart of the world. Like this he got a yellow jersey on his back, but it’s always gonna be a (question mark).” said Robbie Hunter

"Contador is sure to face a bigger test from the enraged Schleck on the road to Pau tomorrow, but will perhaps take consolation from the thoughts of some respected Tour veterans. Asked for their opinion on the incident, Laurent Jalabert, Bernard Thévenet and Bernard Hinault all described Schleck's incident as an inescapable part of racing and said they were looking ahead to see how Contador and Schleck will respond"

IMO AC could have waited and I think he did to some extent but when the race was on, it is called racing. Besides, not even current or previous tour riders or team directors are agreement hence I won't judge AC, but that's just me. I can't wait to see what's next on during the week.

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Jorge Martinez
Head Coach - Sports Science
E3 Training Solutions, LLC
@CoachJorgeM

If you say that, it's because you have an anti-American and anti-Lance agenda. Actually, you must be French.

I'm considered one of those Lance haters simply for saying Contador would beat him again. I've also been told I love cancer for saying I think Lance was on PED's and unbelievably, I did not question the ethics or manliness of all French lab technicians.

However no one has ever said I was French, that is a low blow.

The pave is all about destroyed bikes and bike handling. Mountains are about ability to ride hard.

What's the bet that we see spartacus on the front next time Contador stops for a piss?

I have to say, if it was a chain drop from shifting then they all should have gone as hard as they could. If it was his fault the hell with AS or AC or anyone else who drops a chain. I have been in that situation and you DO NOT shift under maximum load no matter what the manuf. says (you can do it if you are careful)....and that is what it looked like AS did.....he shifted under extreme load and while keeping a high cadence. As everyone that rides knows, there are times you just don't shift or you will drop a chain. Everyone that has watched it multiple times has said AC knew exactly what happened as he was behind him and saw it when it happened. Well, if AS drops a chain then hammer on....that is not a mechanical but rider error. The only thing I think AC did wrong was not state this....." AS dropped his chain when he was trying to attack and we took advantage of it. That is not a mechanical but rider error."

The only thing that brings into question about the "code", is stage 3. Fabian (with Andy Schleck in tow), pushes and decimates the pace when the crash/mechanicals happened (yellow jersey involved).

Not at all a comparable situation. The yellow jersey at the time was in no way an overall contender for the longer-term.

People always refer to Armstrong/Ullrich incedents but seem to forget the travisty of Zulle. I beleive no time was lost after that day. The tour is cruel and a little luck always plays a part! I'm on the fence on this one although he (AC) could have stopped driving the pace on th DH into the finish if he really thinks he has the TT advantage. The debate over the DH skills and if AS would have hung are lame. The guy only lost 20 sec or so on the actual DH against a powerful group.

Sad day for Contador. If he had waited, he would have gained the respect of 99% of cycling fan.

Contador has won a few TDF's by beating everyone soundly but still didn't have the respect of the "cycling fans" here so I doubt that this incident would have made any difference.

There is no Dana, only Zulle.

Also, don't forget 2004 where USPS attacked a crash that not only involved a favorite (Mayo) but also the Yellow Jersey (Hushovd).

Nice play, Keymaster

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

You know...with the UCI's overriding attitude being that bicycle racing is about a competition of man against man and not about the machines (i.e. see "Lugano Charter), then I'm surprised that all mechanical failures aren't accompanied with a race neutralization... :-/

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

For those saying he should have stopped, where is there precedent in the history of cycling for holding up specifically for a dropped chain???

How is it not a comparable (did you miss where I said cycling basically seems to cherry picks this "code" of attacking)? We are talking about the "yellow" jersey. If the "yellow" jersey has the reponsibilty to handle the peloton even in the early stages (how often do we talk about Lance didnt want the yellow early because he didnt want his team to have that responsibility to control the race early on), I'm not sure you can cherry pick what the "yellow" jersey is.


AS certainly didnt feel "angered"/ashamed to get that 40 sec time gain did he over the yellow jersey and other (potential longer term) GC guys.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm not aware of one but you're reading far too narrowly. The understanding is that you don't take advantage of bad luck. I am mystified by the distinctions some seem to be drawing between mechanical issues that are not the rider's fault (where they seem to argue one should wait), mechanicals that are the rider's fault (when it's apparently ok to attack), and crashes (when you should always wait).

Seriously?!

Bad luck is bad luck, a mechanical is a mechanical and they're almost always partly the rider's fault. Flat your front tire? Avoid the pothole. Melt the glue on your tire? Brake less.

Everyone seems to think it was right that the group waited for LA when he hooked that musette (ignoring whether or not they actually did wait for the time being), but watch the replay and he could have avoided the whole issue by riding six inches to his left in open road.

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

I'm with most people here that the crap that hammering ahead on stage 3 and neutralizing the race in stage 2 when they were in trouble, was just as much a dick move as what happened today. You can say Chavanel wasn't a contender but others that lost time from the move were.

Also, who's to say that a rider isn't a real contender; I know its rare but there are riders that just come out of nowhere and place well, ie Wiggins.

He wasn't shifting when the chain dropped.

[reply...... And he really rode like a complete pussy the last two days. He attacks with so little mountain left that even if AC counters he would have a hard time getting yellow, yet knowing all along he will only have 2 stages left to put time into AC that he needs come the final TT. Does AS really believe he can TT. He TT's as well as he puts his chain on. He's not riding to win the TDF despite what he says. He's riding to hold the yellow as long as he can. He rode like a pussy yesterday and today.[/reply]

Agree. This whole wait/no-wait debate is just noise. He already has a second from last year. Put the freaking hammer down. Your either going to crack AC and win the tour or not.

Can you imagine all the hate for AC that could have been erased had he waited? He would have gained so much in terms of respect. Very short sighted.

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Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj

Not siding either way but as for the slowing down thing both AC and AS basically did track stands yesterday out there checking each other out at one point so the other would lead. just saying this as maybe AC thought AS was stopping for him to lead, or not. In either case I will wait to see the actual for my judgment; although 40s to put your chain on; did he put it back on or replace it????

S

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Banger

Heck, he almost could have swapped a crank in that amount of time ;-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Really. He could have stopped by the side of the road to rescue a baby from a burning house and most Americans and STers in particular would hate him just as much. It's been hard for fans at the end of an era, it always is. The king is dead, long live the king.

It takes him about 26 seconds to remount it twice the first 8 of which he's coasting trying to work out what's going on. It wasn't as bad as people make it sound (though he'd wish he'd got it done in one shot no doubt).

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

No it was not, but one could argue that he was not an overall contender, but thats another matter all together.

I doubt it. If he had waited, people would have just said he was tired, and was lucky Schleck dropped his chain...

People keep talking about some "code"...I know of no code that says you slow down when the race is at it's pivotal moment, basically the last 2K in the race where one can attack. Waiting in that situation would be ridiculous. And besides, it's Schleck's fault for not being able to shift his bike. At least that's what his team director thinks.

You need to look at that again...from the moto's viewpoint, he was clearly shifting with his right hand.

The bike is part of the race. Some people choose heavier components that are more reliable. Some people choose lighter components that are less reliable. Isn't this supposed to be called chess on wheels? If you make the wrong decision, why should your competitor have pity for you? Should they stop and wait if your leg is cramping up? Maybe they should slow down a little if your bike isn't quite as aero as theirs. This code stuff is crap.

I have watched in multiple times and he isn't shifting. You are wrong.

Can anyone show the vids from the different viewpoints? The Velonews highlight video doesnt really show close enough to actually see if he is shifting or not.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Here's a link to the best YouTube video I can find highlighting the "incident." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcN2HrkrnF4 (pardon the German)

From this, I'm seeing two distinct events that determine the outcome of the wait/no wait debate.

1. Andy is attacking, Vino responds first, Contador starts givin'er - AC is not looking anywhere near AS when he goes past.

2. Andy looks to be shifting in the sequence leading up to the chain drop. Watch his right hand, he's riding SRAM so it's a very short action behind the brake lever but you can see the little wrist flicks that shifting SRAM creates. Does it happen a split second before the chain drops? Maybe not, but certainly in the seconds immediately prior to the chain drop. Almost immediately he tries to pick the chain back up with his left hand/front derailleur.

From the side view when his wheel bounces it looks to me like his chain gets sucked up into the chainstay. More likely though, that bounce was caused by him standing up and hammering while dropping the chain.

Ultimately this debate comes down to whether or not you believe what happened today was a the result of a "mechanical" or rider error. I completely support the gentleman's code in the TdF that you don't attack/win against a true contender when the contender is dealing with a bike issue/crash caused through no fault of his own. That's the honor in the sport (all drugs aside).

I don't see today's events unfolding as a result of mechanical. Andy shifted at the wrong time into the wrong gear or attacked in the wrong place or whatever combination was required to drop his chain. He was slow to put it back on. This happens in bike racing.

This situation is not too unlike when Lance popped out of his pedal twice in a short sequence in a previous tour on a similar climb. IIRC, Lance stated at the end of the stage his pedal was indeed broken. No one stopped for him then. They didn't even slow down. He just got up with the fire in his belly and rode himself back into the pack. The difference is he could. Apparently AS couldn't today.

I'm no fan of AC. I've been cheering for AS this whole tour. But IMO, AS's attitude/comments at the finish was as classless as AC's celebrating the move into the GC lead under unfortunate circumstances.

But it sure makes the next few stages more interesting doesn't it?

I just watched the Eurosport re run just to see what happend now when i know the outcome and AS i clearly shifting with his right hand.

http://video.eurosport.se/...d142780/videos.shtml

He was shifting...Riis said so in an interview.

Why didnt people wait for Chavanel when he was in yellow with issues?

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Banger

Here is AC's comments about what happened and how he would do it again

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOJLuePexs

From my perspective as a road racer who raced the majority of my fifteen year career on FRICTION SHIFTERS MOUNTED TO THE DOWNTUBE- Andy needs to man up and take responsibility for blowing his jump and shift. AC was absolutely right to drill it at that point- after all, he was attacked! WTF? Wait for some idiot who blows his attack because he doesn't know his bike and can't even put his damn chain back on?

If I had a nickle for every top ten position lost in a race when someone blew a shift (friction) at the bottom of a climb or the start of a sprint I coulda invented indexed shifters myself and turned those nickles into millions. Shesh.

"Wait up guys- I suck at operating my bicycle and can't tell my chain from my chainring."

Bike racing isn't just watts/kg- It's tactics, it's pacing, it's luck and yes, knowing how to expertly operate your bicycle. If Andy is pissed at anyone, it should be at himself for throwing his chain.

The good news- now THAT'S entertainment. Can't wait for tomorrow and the final Tourmalet day.

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Mr. Uncaptured External Costs

Fossil carbon is planetary poison.

Another thing that is quite funny is that they were like 15 guys in the group and i think only AC and Vino was in front of As when he stopped and got off his bike. The rest just rode past him when he stands in the middle of the road and one of these guys is Lance. If there is a code, shouldn´t all of them have been waiting, especially those coming from behind that with no doubt knew he was in trouble.

Maybe Lance didn´t see him b/c he was thinking of all class acts he has done and will be doing ;-)

I saw lance give him a push when he was coming back through the carnage.

He wasn't shifting. He was trying to operate the gruber assist he borrowed from Fabian, but the thing vibrated (it doesn't vibrate with FC because he is heavier) and caused the chain to drop.

I guess I still question when AS says, "I wouldnt have attacked like that", yet he jumped on Fabian's wheel when the stage 3 attack went and he even acknowledged it in his post race comments:

"The prologue went badly, yesterday I fell three times, but it was hard for everybody. Today we knew that we could change that. I was well placed on Fabian Cancellara's wheel. I rode flat out with him and I made good gains."

Here is Chavanel's comments:

Sylvain Chavanel was disappointed to lose the yellow jersey due to mechanical trouble. "There was that crash that made my chain come off, and then I was the victim of two punctures," he said. "As I didn't have the legs, it became very difficult [to get back on].

If they are going to race to some "code", I guess to me they should stick to the code, while not having these variables with the code.


A question for the bike mechanics/others; if it wasnt a shifting issue that everyone seems to suggest it wasnt, than would he have needed a bike exchange (ppl suggested it was a "mechanical" issue)? It seems he simply dropped his change because didnt he just get the chain back on(although a trouble time at it) and continue?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No comment on the overall AS vs. AC discussion, but you're citation is just wrong. The stage you're talking about is the SAME one where Lance went down due to the hooked bag. It was while he was trying to get back to the lead group that he popped out of his pedal a couple of times. Tyler Hamilton was at the front aggressively waving the others in the lead group down until Lance caught up.

The important thing to take from all this is that I already got an e-mail from competitivecyclist.com advertising chain catchers.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

So is the new Specialized commercial with AS/AC fighting in that email as well?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

2011 Specialized commerical:
Andy: I can drop you on a climb.
Alberto: I can shift without dropping a chain.
Andy: (lowers head in silence)

Ha! Yes, I got mine at 1:27pm Central time. They are quick!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot1bka0AR-o

(not that funny but someone beat you to it)

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"Are you sure we're going fast enough?" - Emil Zatopek

That would be funny!

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.