Lot's of pro men in the 27's, so either long or conditions.

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I saw some of the top womens splits, and it looks like it swam out about 3 to 4 minutes long if they had wetsuits. A little less if they did not...

They named the river Choptank for a reason.

No wetsuits.

The real carnage is on the run course. Anyone living in the mid-Atlantic is not envious of anyone who has to race in this heat today.

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Seems unlikely that it was particularly long. Tri Columbia tend to know what they're doing.
Far more likely to have been due to current and possibly chop. When it's long people tend to go a similar percentage slower than normal, regardless of speed, but when there is current the slower swimmers spend a disproportionate amount of extra time swimming into the current, so they swim further than the fast folk, and thus their times are disproportionately slower, which seems to be born out in the results today.

No wetsuits for pros, or AGs too?

I was wondering what was up on the run. Top AG times seemed slow across the board.

No wetsuits allowed for any of the racers. The announcement apparently came this morning while people were in transition setting up before the swim starts. It took many by surprise. All week the water temp signaled a wetsuit race. At the pre-race meeting on Saturday, everyone was told it was a wetsuit swim and that the water temp was below 78. The announcement this morning was that the temp was just below 80. Apparently the river temp went up approx 2 degrees overnight. They wouldn't allow people to wear wetsuits and just sacrifice awards or an official time. You couldn't race at all if you had a wetsuit on.

Wow...a RD with balls. Good to see...

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blood, sweat...and big gears

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Don't know if this is true but I heard from several athletes that the boueys shifted overnight making the course longer. Could have been a rumor, but I didn't think the conditions were bad so this would make sense- even with no wetsuit.

Weird, what rules where they using? USAT rules are from 78-82, you CAN wear a wetsuit, just no awards. Only above 82 does the rules say NO wetsuits.

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Not sure if the RD has balls. If this was a USAT rule race, it states between 78-82 wetsuits are allowed, just no awards. So, if the RD did not have a backup plan to deal with water temp between 78-82, then the RD was not prepared. I know at vineman if the water is in the range, they have all the wetsuit folks start last in the corral, and get their chips numbers as they leave the corral. Meaning, the RD is ready for any water temps with processes to run his race.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Good question, and one I think a lot of people would like the answer to. It was a USAT race. It was also an Ironman qualifier event. The race officials responded to inquiring minds by stating that the USAT rule was trumped by the Ironman rule, which apparently (I've never seen it) says that, if the water is over 78, no wetsuits for anyone...period. The only rule published on the race site says "5. Wetsuits are allowed for all athletes if the water is 78 degrees Fahrenheit or colder."

Just home after 1 1/2 hour delay over the Bay Bridge. I DQd swim - first time ever. Looks like a bit less than 10% may have missed the cut-off. I was caught with swim suit in my car at their shuttle pick-up and wound up swimming in bike shorts. Really expected wetsuit since it was cleared in the pre-race announcements on Saturday. Completed the bike course, but there was tape on my rack position saying I was DQd and not to run. Now that I look at the results, I see several folks ran anyway - maybe should have taken that option.

For those that want to criticize my swim training - I swim 3d/week with Masters and attended a swim camp in Florida in March. Completed Hawaii twice well within the cut-off. I'm not fast, but this is the first time I've come up short. Philly Tri in two weeks to get back on the horse.

Jim B.

Well, we all know WTC can have some approved modified USAT rules. But, they would have had to have been published. So, what does their athlete guide say?

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The "Ironman and Ironman 70.3 Race Rules Overview" distributed to all athletes states exactly this "5. Wetsuits are allowed for all athletes if the water is 78 degrees Fahrenheit or colder." I don't believe anything else distributed to the athletes before the race expanded upon or contradicted this. That's obviously not to say that there isn't something, somewhere, that gives them the discretion to make this type of call. My personal view is that they should have made the call much, much sooner, as there's no way the Choptank River went up 2 degrees overnight, and everyone was told on Saturday that it would be a wetsuit swim.

This has been the issue I have had with some of the WTC changes. A number of them may not be throughly thought out, IMO. The USAT rules have been around enough they handle most situations, just like what temp from 0 to 200 degrees.
They have a must, optional for awards, optional no awards, and a cannot wear temps. I guess before I jump to conclusions like I have been accused of in the past, Jimmy, where is the written rule for this situation? If you have not wetsuits period over 78, I sure missed where USAT approve this one. And since starting in Sept the temp goes to 76, what happens after this? Customer are just SOL and cannot wear them even if they do not care about awards?

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Definately long but very very calm for eagleman standards.
The run, in that heat, was a beast. Everyone seemed to be affected, across the board.

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Jonathan Blyer,
ACME Bicycle Co., Brooklyn, NY

Only slightly long, had it clocked at 1.24 on my Garmin which has been pretty accurate. The current is what I think the issue was, I swam through 2 age groups ahead of me and I thoght I was having a good swim until I looked as my watch and saw 38:XX Im usually around 30ish.

I did notice a few of the buoys drifting after the first turn. It seemed like half the athletes went on either side of the yellow buoys.

I do think the current was a major issue. I also thought I was having an awesome swim until I got to the second turn and saw 38:00 on the watch. I've never gone above 33 minutes at Eagleman. This year -- 47 minutes. Completely shot my chance at going sub 5 hours. The bike seemed a bit faster this year, but the run was a sufferfest as usual.

No wetsuits (which few others than pros were prepared for- I don't know if they told the people that took the shuttle that wetsuits were banned). I heard from someone that the swim was like 1.5 miles if you followed the yellow non-turn buoys- apparently some of them shifted overnight. The two red turn buoys were apparently not affected. I also heard that like 197 got DQ'd for not making the swim cutoff. I was in the last AG wave and though I'm a good swimmer and usually pass some in the wave 2 in front of mine, maybe a couple 3 waves in front of me, I passed people wearing swim caps from about 6 different waves. At least when I was in there, there was chop going out and tough currents coming back in. Tough swim for non-swimmers.

The winds were constant on the bike course- worse I've seen there all-around, and the run was brutal with high humidity, and the 15 minute start delay really didn't help the later waves. Rough day.

I remembered that the announcer said something in the morning over the speakers to the effect that the reason why they didn't allow wetsuit was because there was no way for them to determine who was there to race/podium and who was there just to complete the race. I thought that that was odd when I heard it. It seems like if that was the case then it wasn't a RD with balls but rather a RD who was not prepared to handle water above 78 degrees. If it's the later then that is really sad.

Also to 2x what someone has already said. Not sure how the Chesapeake was able to heat up 2 degrees overnight.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Yep, you might be right on. Technically, if you ask an RD before the race what is their written process to deal with water between 78-82, they are supposed to give it to you. So far in all the race I have asked, only the vineman had a process ready. Just another hole in enforcement from WTC/USAT with RD's not ready to follow all the rules. Since it happened at Worlds last year to my family, it even happens at all levels of our sport. So sad. I hope someone bugs WTC to deal with this issue in this race. I also hope folks on races that will be closer if not over in the future, you might want to start writing the RD/WTC and get the issue dealt with BEFORE it happens.

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I'm searching all over for even the slightest indication that this could happen, and nothing. Even in the "most common rule violations" distributed to the athletes, it says:

"10. Wetsuits:
Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wetsuit without penalty in any event sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit. When the water temperature is greater than 78 degrees but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wetsuit at their own discretion, provided, however that participants who wears a wetsuit within such temperature range shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Above 84 degrees, wetsuits are prohibited."

It's very disappointing. Eagleman is a big event and the fact that the RD didn't have a plan in place for water above 78 is unacceptable. It will be interesting to see if participation drops next year when people considering the race recall/learn for the first time how this went down. In the interim, there needs to be some uniform implementation of a rule that allows amateurs to race w/ the wetsuit if they want, up to 84 degrees. In a field of 2200, most racers aren't there for prize/award eligibility.

Put the lunch bag over your mouth, breathe in, breathe out, breathe in, breathe out. Now hand the bag to H20fun. When you both have stopped the hyperventilating, you'll both feel better. If participants choose not to participate next year due to the wetsuit "situation" this year, there will be plenty of other triathletes lined up to take those spots...triathletes who don't need their wetsuit to do double duty as a life preserver. BTW, I am a LOUSY swimmer, and it was great to have non-wetsuit swim today.

The RD did everyone a favor as far as I'm concerned. I think people at Memphis in May this year learned what happens when you combine above 78 temps with wetsuits and then hot humid weather on the run.... It is a recipe for heatstroke and other bad things. The fact that the RD actually had the guts to pull the plug on wetsuits make me vote to do this race next year, and not the other way around. Congrats Eagleman RDs.

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totally agree. Despite swimming 12 mins longer than normal I personally felt much better coming out of the water than normal when I've been cooking in my wetsuit. (oh, and I am one of those triathlete pull buoy crack heads in the pool who needs a crutch and left my speedskin at home since I never imagined it wouldn't be wetsuit legal). Bravo to the rd!

Side note: the potty lines were insane after 90% of the athlete heard the rule call and instantly dropped a load!

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Can RD's just randomly change rules whenever they feel like it? If so, then cool. If not and the rules say people can wear wetsuits up to 82 then the RD's have to be prepared for 100% of the field to use them if it is 79 degrees. There are no excuses for not having a plan. Obviously SOOO many things that go into putting on a race of this magnitude. However, this is one detail that can not get overlooked given the current clientel.

FWIW, I raced today at another event and didn't even wear a top because the water/air temps were too warm let alone wear a wetsuit like some other folks were doing and by ST standards I shouldn't even be near water. Unfortunately, the rules said they could so to each his own.

I did the race 2 years ago when the temps were a bit above what they were today ... I had an awful swim in my wetsuit as I couldn't seem to navigate worth a damn and kept getting caught up in traffic from earlier waves ...

... that said, I absolutely cooked in my wetsuit and couldn't take in nutrition on the bike without getting sick. I had to go to water for the first 2 hours of the bike and just melted down on the run, suffering from the 108 heat index and a lack of calories. While I love wearing a wetsuit for a swim, I can't imagine wearing a full suit in water temps of 80 degrees or more.

I was at Eagleman and was near the head USAT referee when someone questioned her about being able to wear wetsuits and not be eligilbe for age group awards. I believe it was her call to not allow any wetsuits and not the RD. Her reasoning was that they would have no idea which athletes wore wetsuits and/or didn't wear wetsuits in the final results.

I was really surprised that they could not find water that was 77.9. I bet alot of athletes were freaked out that they were not able to wear there wetsuit. Seems a bit safer to have the AG athletes in wetsuits also.

Mike

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do a regression analysis of race swim temperatures and I'll bet you'll find an inordinate amout of races at 77.5 degrees. This race director does indeed have balls. He runs a great race and was firm in his decision making. Good on him.

What plan are you referring to? The water temperature was 82 degrees or more. No wetsuits period. What's the problem with that? How can you be "ready" for certain water temps?

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don't you think it's actually refreshing that they didn't "find" water that was below whatever limit?

End result: learn to swim.

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When in doubt...go without...RD did the smart thing! wish I'd been there...heck I hate wetsuits unless the water really is cold. It's all about the run in the 70.3 and ups anyways

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One of our other local race directors, piranha sports uses this same rule. Over 78 no wetsuits period.

However, they have it stated on their website and send a reminder email to those registered if the water temp looks close.

So it looks like the race directors are asking for these deviations ahead of time from usat, just that some may not be publishing it.

These responses are amazing. This rule is okay, that is not. An RD can do this on race day, an RD cannot. But no, the RD did not make the decision, the USAT official did. What a cop out.

I have told USAT a number of times that saying a race is USAT certified can be a joke, just like it looks like this race might be. Meaning, when I do a sport, and there is a set of rules, I expect these rules to be used at this event.
Now, per USAT sanction requirements, one of many process they state they must have in place when they sign the contract is if the water if between 78-82, they have a process in place to change the swim portion of the race so folks CAN swim with a wetsuit, just not get awards. So, if a RD does not have this ready to go, what other corners has the RD cut? And NO WAY would an official say break the USAT rules.

Now, I guess it might be possible that a race could have gotten a written wavier for ignoring this rule, but I would be surprised.

Now, is piranha sport a USAT race? If so, do they have in writing from USAT that they have an exception to the rule? And if so, it MUST be published BEFORE the race and ideally before anyone signs up so they can decide if this is the type of race they want to do.

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Thank you I couldn't have said it better myself. Wetsuits are supposed to help with water temperature, not be your crutch so you can limp through the swim.

I am usually a 30 minute swimmer (if I'm training) and a 35 min (if I'm not)

I expected to go about 35-36 min yesterday and ended up swimming 46 and change. My longest ever!

Tack on a minute for the lack of wetsuit, but it was mostly current. The last 800 meters to the finish took forever.

Then why do folks like yourself and others who state folks should learn how to swim, are not pushing WTC and USAT to use the ITU water cutoff temps? At the ITU levels, a lot of races would be no wetsuit swim.

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Let's keep the argument about wetsuit rules somewhere else and the insults directed at weak swimmers to a minimum.

The question here is whether the Eagleman RD gave adequate warning about the absolutely-no-wetsuits policy. In my opinion they did not: in 3 of 4 links on the Eagleman page they quote the standard USAT rule; and they were apparently telling people on Saturday that wetsuits would be OK. Balance that against 1 link (to the Ironman rules) that does not explicitly say what happens over 78 degrees.

Three Garmins had it 300 meters long and the current added to the swim disaster.

Bob

Fixed it for you.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I think that whether you agree or disagree that this race should be wetsuit illegal above 78 degrees is irrelevant. What's relevant is that there is a rule in place that says you could as long as it's below 84 and you are not seeking a podium. If it was the RD's intent to deviate from this USAT rule then that should have been published ahead of time ... and it wasn't. It wasn't written anywhere not talked about during the briefing.

What if the RD on race day said that no aero helments were allowed if the air temp is above 85 degrees? How would you feel? Your reaction would probably be ... "ok that's fine, but how come it's not printed anywhere on the website or the athlete's guide that says aero helmets are not allowed when the temp is above say 85 degrees?"

I do just fine swiming in a pool without a wetsuit. I'm fine in the open water with no wetsuit wether it's 77 or 67 degrees. I just have a problem with the deviation from the rule without communicating it to the athletes beforehand.

I don't believe once second that the rule for no wetsuit was a USAT official's call. The call may have came about because a USAT official may have asked the RD what his plan was to accommodate wetsuit wearing vs non-wetsuit wearers and the answer was "we have none." In that case, the USAT action was dictated by the RD's action. The USAT official didn't arbitrarily say no wetsuit over 78 period.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Is that 300 meters long as measured while the swimmers zig-zagged, or 300 meters long after post-processing the tracks to measure start to turn to turn to finish?

in defense of Vigo (The RD) the announcers were giving more than adequate information on the WTC rules about NO wetsuits. I think they went over it at least four or five times in transition.

This was the first time EVER that EMan was non-wetsuit and caught a lot of people off guard.

Bob

Start to turn in straight lines. One of the folks had a top 35 swim overall, so I am assuming he's a pretty good swimmer. The issue was the drift of the turn buoys overnight. The course was laid out the day before and then not remeasured the next morning.

Bob

Unless WTC has specific rules changes written, which USAT would have approved, then ALL USAT standard rules are in effect. Meaning, there are NO wetsuit or water temp changes for WTC at all until Sept. So, why is it even a question that it looks like this race broke the rules? (With the data that has been posted to date) And in Sept, since so many seem to not care about the details of WTC rule changes, who knows what WTC rules for the water cutoff at 76 means. But who cares right, the RD can just make up what ever rules they want on race day. :o)

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Sorry, no excuse!! Any triathlon race that gets a sanction from USAT says they must have a plan, that any racer can ask to look at, for what happens if the water is over 78. No excuse just because it did not happen before.
How about if the swim had to be stopped for some reason, and the RD said, oh, I have no plans for if there is no swim so there is NO race, and you do not get your money back. I guess this would be okay too. Bottom line is we
pay a lot of money to RD's to be ready for many things that might happen. No swim is one. Water over 78 is another. Etc. Anything less means, well, we all might have difference opinions of expectations of RD's. But since I am putting my safety in their hands, I have high expectations.

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I guess one needs to spend extra money to make sure the swim bouys do not move. :o) Let alone verify the morning of the race. Now, I do wish more races had the swim leg too long.

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The rule for wetsuits was a clearly stated modification of USAT rules done under their agreement with WTC for Eagleman and other races that are sanctioned by USAT. See here on the CTA website for Eagleman: http://www.tricolumbia.org/..._Race_Rules_2009.pdf It took me approximately 30 seconds to find these.

The rule is as clear as any statement in the English language could possibly be. "Wetsuits are allowed for all athletes if the water is 78 degrees Fahrenheit or colder." Why people keep coming back to some supposed ambiguity in the rule if the water was 78-84 is beyond my comprehension. There's the rule. Live with it. BTW, if you go to weatherunderground their marine weather for Cambridge yesterday indicated a water temp of 79.5 degrees.

As for implementation and enforcement, USAT rules and procedures place this in the hands of the head referee, not the RD. See competitive rule 4.6. That rule is further elaborated into how it is implemented in the USAT officials manual. The relevant portion is excerpted below:


Measuring Water Temperature

The Head Referee, or his/her designee, will measure the temperature of the water at the swim venue the day before the event. The temperature should be measured as close to the actual next day start time of the event as logically possible. Changing weather conditions may dictate the requirement for an additional measurement on race morning. This will be at the discretion of the Head Referee.

A Fahrenheit or Centigrade thermometer, approved by the Head Referee or his/her agent, will be used to measure the water temperature. The recommended model is found at http://www.professionalequipment.com/...te-4146/thermometer/

Temperature should be measured, at a depth of not less than 6 inches, nor more than 24�, and at a distance of at least 60� from shore. Understanding that all swim venues will be different, it is the responsibility of the Head Referee to devise a method to measure the water temperature in a manner that will stand the test of the �Reasonable Man� (that the reasonable person would agree that the method used was sound and will give the Head Referee a reasonably accurate and representative water temperature). Section 4.6 of the Competitive Rules suggests a method, which may or may not be practicable.

The water temperature will be posted at the packet pickup site, and will be announced at any pre-race meetings. It will also be posted at the race site on race day. If changing weather condition necessitates a race day measurement, participants should be told that they should be prepared to bring wet suits to the race site on race morning pending a measurement.

Understanding that a boat may not be available, the Head Referee may decide to measure at or near the shoreline. The coldest measurement will be in shallow water near dawn. Only the Head Referee is delegated the authority to modify the guidelines for measurement. There can be no modification of the temperature requirements for wetsuit usage.


So as you can see, there is some room for discretion in how the referee tests the water, and how that determination is presented to the athletes. Although I was not there, it seems that the biggest beef that some folks have is that the announcement was not made the prior day. That's a pretty small whine in the big scheme of things.


What irritates me is that some seek to impugn the RD (who has been at this a long time) and the officials, who it seems to me tried to do everything they could to get it right, even at the cost of annoying a few swimmers who seem a bit attached to their neoprene.


Glad everyone made it home after what sounds like a tough day in the heat.

http://www.tricolumbia.org/..._Race_Rules_2009.pdf (as linked to from the "Race Rules" link at http://www.tricolumbia.org/Eagleman/):

5. Wetsuits are allowed for all athletes if the water is 78 degrees Fahrenheit or colder.

If you think that means that wetsuits aren't disallowed if the water is over 78, then you are living in an alternate universe.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Amazing, so you are saying that you or anyone else can make up rules. I read it as over 78 you must swim in your birthday suit and do the butterfly stroke the entire swim! This continues to be the issue I have with WTC when they ask USAT for a rule mod. They seem to never think about the details. Now, I could blame USAT for approving these type of exceptions, but USAT has told me that it is not their responsibility to tell WTC that their rule mods lack detail, it is a WTC issue.

That is one thing about rules, they must be written so they ATTEMPT to cover, at least, the obvious questions. So, since you are saying wetsuits are not allowed over 78 AT ALL, in your opinion, I guess the rule that USAT has that below a certain temp wetsuits MUST be worn does not matter either.

Why are you sticking up for WTC not doing the full job if they want to become the rule owners?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Now, since I did not see your response in pink, are we actually agreeing on something? :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Also interesting that this does not say 77.9.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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They also link on the Eagleman web page to USAT's rule where it states that 78-84 is optional. I just think that it should be more clear. You can't send people to 20 different web pages all with a different set of standards. If you want absolutely no wetsuits above 78 ... don't send people to a link references where it say that it's optional. That's all that I'm saying.

And to your question .. no I'm not living in a alternate universe but thanks for the name calling. If I'm wrong then say I'm wrong but why resort to personal attacks? Can we have a debate without personal attacks? ... oh nevermind. This is ST.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

where did I insult slow swimmers? All I'm saying is that the argument about race director decisions needs to go both ways.... we supposedly respect their decisions when they choose to "find" 77.5 degree water so why not do the same when they choose to stand firm on 78.1 degree water.

It's no insult to encourage people to learn to swim. I was a non-swimmer when I started racing and I've worked hard to improve. I know a no wetsuit swim hurts me more than it hurts a good swimmer but I still look forward to them because I know I won't be overheating and relish the challenge. Basically, it is what it is.

We wouldn't be having this discussion if we all swam better.... after all, we're talking about a mere 1900m swim in warm water. Why would you even WANT to use a wetsuit?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Anyone who hosts a USAT sanctioned race can petition for a modification of the rules. That's what Tri Columbia (the race owner & operator) did, and that's what they received. Of course you can bypass USAT sanctioning altogether and make up your own rules all you want.

I actually find the lack of gray area in this rule refreshing. Very few things are like this in sport or in life.

The logic in your second paragraph does not follow. Wetsuits not being allowed over 78 degrees F is not my opinion, it was a stated rule. No one is required to wear a wetsuit under USAT rules, but I understand that some races require them for hypothermia safety under the same rules-modification procedure I just mentioned. (Escape from Alcatraz, perhaps? Anyone?)

If you have read my posts before you know I am not a WTC apologist. I just can't see anything they or the RD or the head referee did wrong here.

Well, if you cannot see that they did anything wrong, then I guess we can agree to disagree. I see so many RD's like this, such lack of detail, but I tend to be the odd man out who cares about detail, which is why I became an engineer.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Don't USAT rules allow some leeway for the RD to make calls like this on race morning? A static set of rules doesn't necessarily fit a dynamic environment.


I think changing the swim temp rule down is going to have a big impact on how some of the 70.3 AG races turn out. I wonder if this will be a factor in registration #'s for races where they typically border on 78F water temps?

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I don't do that many races per year. I do perhaps 2 per year and I do it for fun as opposed to trying to be at the top of my AG. I think that many people are like me. For people like us who do races for fun, we are inclined to sign up for races where we know, based on history, that wetsuit legal will be highly in our favor. I don't think that the new water temp rule will affect Ironman branded races but will for smaller races. If you are a RD for a small non-WTC race where the water temp tend to be near 78 every year, I think that you should be concerned.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

On the Eagleman home page, there is a link called "Race Rules". In the following document is a line that says when wetsuits are allowed. Why do you think that some other rule somewhere else would supercede the explicit rules in "Race Rules?"

As for name calling: I apparently incorrectly assumed you read the "Race Rules" and were still unclear, after reading 5. above under what circumstances wetsuits are allowed. Do you agree that the cited rule is pretty clear that wetsuits above 78 would not be allowed?

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Some things they can but the wetsuit stuff is set in stone since before they made these rules, some RD's would never allow them no matter how cold the water was.

All this comes down to is poor planning. As a former RD, one just needs to ask a few simple questions like:

1): what issues could we have on the swim that might make us have to change from the standard process. Water temps. Weather. Water quality. Permits. support does not show up, Etc. And each one of these possible issues should have a written game plan as to what would happen on race day if the Murphy showed up.

2). Bike course: Accidents. Fires. Road construction. Rain, hail, or snow. Wind. Dust. Floods. Etc. And each one of these possibilities should have a written plan as to what changes would happen.

3). Run, just like the bike.

So, just not that hard.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Then I guess you should be very concerned with IM branded races since starting in Sept, the water cutoff rule will be 76 degrees for WTC.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Brian, please see my post a few spots up on this. It is a dynamic process leading up to race morning, and it's not up to the RD, but the head referee. As to your second point, yes, I think it may very well become an issue for the very casual athlete (that's a description, not a condemnation folks) who wants a wetsuit-friendly swim. For Eagleman and its field, I would foresee no impact at all.

Good decision by the RD and it makes sense paricularly on a hot day. Why encourage dehydration in the swim with wetsuits when they are not needed for temperature? If you saw the medical tent in 2008, you would understand. Deciding not to race because of the wetsuit restriction may have saved a few people further peril in the heat of the day...

I would agree with you if it stoped there. However, it also references the USAT's rule which states:
"4.4 Wet suits. Each age group participant shall be permitted to wear a wet suit without penalty in any event sanctioned by USA Triathlon up to and including a water temperature of 78 degrees Fahrenheit."

Which is also pretty clear and sounds like what Eagleman says but then USAT goes on on further to clarify that

"When the water temperature is greater than 78 degrees, but less than 84 degrees Fahrenheit, age group participants may wear a wet suit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range shall not be eligible for prizes or awards. Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal to or greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit."

If #5 is taken in context with USAT's rule, it gives the impression that between 78-84 it's optional. If Eagleman stated "Age group participants shall not wear wet suits in water temperatures equal to or greater than 78 degrees Fahrenheit." I think that it would have made it crystal clear. It would have made it crystal clear had they also mentioned it during the briefing. During the briefing, they kept saying not to worry that the AG will be allowed to wear wetsuits.

My problem is with the mixed message and ambiguity.

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__________________________________________________________________________
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Mathematically, "if" is not the same as "if and only if." "If the water is 78 or colder then wetsuits are allowed" doesn't state what happens when the water is above 78. It is still a true statement if the water is 79 degrees and wetsuits are allowed: a conditional statement is automatically true if its antecedent is false. "Wetsuits are allowed if and only if the water is 78 or colder" is quite clear.

Details, details, who cares about small things like details. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I understand, believe me. I have overheated in a wet suit during a Oly swim when the RD said the water was 77.9. :o)

So, again, if folks are serious that there is all of a sudden a safety issue with the rules, get WTC and USAT to change to the ITU water temp cutoffs. Then you fix a number of concerns all at one time.

Here is the ITU rules for water temps and wetsuits, which I would love to see used by both WTC and ITU, AS IS.

Go to page 14 at http://www.triathlon.org/...-2010_2010-02-11.pdf





4.2. Wetsuit Use:
a.) Wetsuit use is governed by the following tables:
Elite, U23 and Junior athletes
Swim
Length
Forbidden
Above
Mandatory
Below
Maximum
Stay in Water
300m 20o C 14o C 10 min.
750m 20o C 14o C 20 min.
1500m 20o C 14o C 30 min.
3000m 22o C 16o C 1 h 15 min.
4000m 22o C 16o C 1 h 45 min.
International Triathlon Union
Competition Rules
2010-01-23 15
For Age Group athletes:
Swim
Length
Forbidden
Above:
Mandatory
Below:
Maximum
Stay in Water
750m 22o C 14o C 30 min.
1500m 22o C 14o C 1 h 10 min.
3000m 23o C 16o C 1 h 40 min.
4000m 24o C 16o C 2 h 15 min.
4.3. Modifications:
a.) The swim distance can be shortened or even cancelled according to this table:
Original
swim
distance
Temperature of water
16.9�C �
16.0�C
15.9�C �
15.0�C
14.9�C �
14.0�C
13.9�C �
13.0�C
Below
13.0�C
750 m 750 m 750 m 750 m 750 m Cancel
1500 m 1500 m 1500 m 1500 m 750 m Cancel
3000 m 3000 m 3000 m 1500 m Cancel Cancel
4000 m 4000 m 3000 m 1500 m Cancel Cancel
* Note: The temperatures above are not always the water temperature used in the
final decision. If the air temperature is lower than the water temperature, then the
adjusted value is to decrease the measured water temperature by 0,5�C every 1.0�C of
difference between the air and water temperatures.
(*) Air temperature
15�C 14�C 13�C 12�C 11�C 10�C 9�C 8�C
Water temperature
18�C 16.5�C 16�C 15.5�C 15�C 14.5�C 14�C 13.5�C 13�C
17�C 16�C 15.5�C 15�C 14.5�C 14�C 13.5�C 13�C Cancel
16�C 15.5�C 15�C 14.5�C 14�C 13.5�C 13�C Cancel Cancel
15�C 15�C 14.5�C 14�C 13.5�C 13�C Cancel Cancel Cancel
14�C 14�C 14�C 13.5�C 13�C Cancel Cancel Cancel Cancel
b.) If other weather conditions dictate, i.e., high winds, heavy rain, etc. the Technical and
Medical Delegates may adapt limits on the swim length or provisions about the
wetsuit use. The final decision will be made one hour before the start, and will be
clearly communicated to the athletes by the Technical Delegate.
c.) Water Temperature: Water temperature must be taken one (1) hour prior to the start of
the event on race day. It must be taken at the middle of the course and in two other
areas on the swim course, at a depth of 60 cm. The lowest measured temperature will
be considered as the official water temperature.
International Triathlon Union
Competition Rules
2010-01-23 16
d.) Athletes must wear their ITU approved uniform for non-wetsuit swims. If athletes
choose to wear a second suit, it must be worn underneath the official uniform and
cannot be removed during the entire competition.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I took "End result: learn to swim." as condescension, which is insulting. I apologize if I misinterpreted your tone.

I'll admit that I wanted to wear a wetsuit because it makes me swim faster. I did a 1.2+ mile swim in an 82 degree indoor pool prior to the event to make sure I wouldn't overheat. I didn't -- the trick is to pull on your wetsuit's neck every once in a while to flush the body-heated water out and let cooler water in.

If it had been stated clearly and consistently from the start (that is, when registration opened) that there was a decent chance that wetsuits would not be allowed then I'm sure some of the 100+ people who were DQ'd would have spared themselves the $255 registration fee + hotel + getting stuck in bridge traffic on the way home.

I would argue that yesterday was harder than two years ago. First the race was delayed for almost 20 minutes. Second, people exerted themselves far more in the water than two years ago. Third, the wind on portions of the bike was tough. Fourth, by the times people hit the run it was well after 11am and the run course was baking hot with a nasty wind.

Bob

Why are you all continuing to debate this w/ H2OFUN. He is not going to concede even if he's dead wrong.
There is a long history of that archived here on ST. Its easy to criticize while playing Monday morning quarterback.
The RD put on an amazing event and dealt with the situation with amazing professionalism.

There is no such thing as a perfect event for everyone. CTA did a great job.

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Robert Flanigan

That is the issue, am I dead wrong, or dead right? Maybe you thought the race was run perfect, but from some who were their, do you call them monday morning quarterback.
The common issue I will keep beating on is any group, whether it is WTC or USAT or ITU who has done a poor job with rules. So far, the group that clearly needs the most improvement in how to write rules, with the needed details, is WTC from what I have seen a number of times. Not saying anything about if I agree with the rules changes, just how they are documented. But, I guess this little silly issue should just be ignored, right. :O)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It was inevitable that some would try and morph this into a "learn to swim" string. That's not the issue. If you're comfortable swimming without a wetsuit, good for you.

The issue is the lack of notice (and the lack of a contingency plan). People came to this event from cold water climates, like Rochester, where the water is too cold this early in the season to train in open water without a wetsuit (and unsafe to do so). They did so knowing that Eagleman has always been a wetsuit race, and believing that the USAT rule posted on the race site indicated that water temps between 78-82 would make it wetsuit optional w/o the chance for awards. People DID NOT KNOW that temps 78 or higher would turn it into a mandatory non-wetsuit swim for everyone. If they knew that, this thread wouldn't exist. How you interpret the Ironman rule, and then suggest someone else's alternative inerpretation is unreasonalbe, really highlights the issue. If people knew the water temps were hovering around 78, and that at 78 the swim would convert to mandatory non wetsuit for everyone, people would have saved money and planned accordingly.

At the pre-race meeting, the RD asked "how many of you are doing your first 70.3 race"? More than half raised their hands. It's no secret that this wasn't a field of 2200 elite athletes competing for a Kona spot. They marketed this event as an ideal first timer's race, and they confirmed that at the pre-race meeting, when they also confirmed it was a wetsuit swim.

Here are the questions no one seems able to answer: Why did the race director tell everyone on Saturday it would be a wetsuit swim and that the water was 76.something (to resounding applause amongst the racers in attendance)? How did the river heat up over 2 degrees overnight? Please, tell me how the river heated up over 2 degrees overnight.

Don't lead people to believe it's a wetsuit swim all along, including the day before the race, and then tell people while in transition a couple of hours before the swim starts that the water temp went up 2 degrees overnight, that the race is now non wetsuit for everyone, and that the 78-82 optional wetsuit/no award rule doesn't apply.

The reason people are upset about this is because they DIDN'T KNOW it could happen, and were being led to believe all along that it was a wetsuit swim. It's irrelevant whether you personally liked the RD's call or not, and it's irrelevant whether you think people should learn to swim better.

People had a right to know and plan accordingly.

Ask the masses of DQ'ed people whether they agree.

A swim which is 300 meters longer than anticipated constitutes a disaster? What is it like to live in a world of such profound hyperbole?

Great post, now will see if you can get any real, non emotional answers. And I thought it was just me who was interested in this mess. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nah, if they had just learned to swim, they would not have had to worry about something simple like rules and processes. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When folks complain about the bike and run being a little off, what do you call a swim that is off around 15%? So, it would be okay if the bike was 64.4 miles and the run was 15 miles? Might has well make all the legs equally long.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Not sure if it's been posted, but these are the CURRENT Ironman wetsuit rules as posted on Ironman.com:

Until Sept. 1, 2010 there are no restrictions on the type of wetsuit worn, provided the water temperature is less than 78 degrees Fahrenheit. Athletes may choose to wear a wetsuit in water temperatures between 78 degrees Fahrenheit and 84 degrees Fahrenheit, with the understanding that they will not be eligible for awards, including World Championship slots. Wetsuits are prohibited in water temperature greater than 84 degrees Fahrenheit.

We would not want to worry about a little detail like what is a current rule, vs an old one. Great find!! Now, I wonder how they will mod this when it is 76 degree on Sept 1st. And I wonder why so many are saying this is not the rule and it was okay for eagleman to ignore it. Yes, if I were one of those 100 DQed folks, yep I would be all over ST pissed, but I just need to learn how to swim. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Exactly why I referenced an alternate universe. It obviously isn't explicitly iff, but anyone living in this universe should understand that iff is implied.

I'm all for "say what you mean, mean what you say," but after 52 years I've come to the conclusion that it just isn't worth it to do that level of parsing. At some point, one profits by asking what was the intention of the statement.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

Buoys do that all of the time. I used to lifeguard at the beach in San Diego. I've seen quite a few things which were supposedly buoyed move quite a bit with the current. It happens swim buoy locations are highly dynamic.

Run and bike turns are at fixed points. Unless the fixed points somehow move overnight due to an earthquake or some act of God, then I wouldn't expect the run course to change materially from one day to the next.

For a multiple turn-buoy swim course, where the buoys are placed in a dynamic, active, flowing river, I would assume 15% is well within the margin of error.

You mean like how one profits by having racers spend lots of money at the event expo the day before the race/morning-of surprise announcement about the rule change?

I'm curious as to why no one has commented on the yellow buoys moving. I guess I am probably wrong to assume that most know they do not have to go around the yellow buoys but rather ony go around the turn buoys??? If you followed I could certainly see the extra yardage coming into play.

Congrats to Vigo on his decision and as "Not so" Slowterp said - preventing further peril
RD makes all decisions and is also therefore held personally accountable for anything that happens on course. Put that weight on your shoulders one morning with 2700 athletes about to race.

Lastly - head official did tell me in the morning she measured in 7 different places and she could not find legal temperature.

Did we have a new head official that plays by the rules? Ok we all know she does!!! Did they previously?

Is it a circumstance of know that it has been brought to the RD's attention he must adhere to rules or face some negligence issue if something happens?

We will never know what was going thru his mind that morning .... but I'm sure he made what he felt was the safest and smartest decision.



.... tin can ironman ....

In this case the intention was made unclear by other links (at least the Event FAQ, Key Race Info, and Most Common Violations) that quoted the standard USAT rule.

(I have no clue what this means, unless you are suggesting that people bought wetsuits the day before a half ironman? Talk about lack of preparation)

Why is it that people assume that, because it's never happened before, a race is always wetsuit legal? I just don't understand this mindset. Be prepared: the Choptank isn't the St. Lawrence River. Every triathlon has the possibility of odd weather, including water that is way beyond normal temperatures. Deal with it and stop whining. Nothing in any set of rules anyone comes up with says that a race is guaranteed to be wetsuit legal or illegal. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

---

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"

So, based on the officials measurement on race morning, who measured the day before and got 2 degrees cooler? Can you say 77.9. Thank you USAT official for doing your job correctly!!!

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I won't complain about the rule interpretation of USAT VS WTC.
I went and did packet pickup around 3:30 on Saturday and no one mention water temp or westsuit over there
I did a practice swim Saturday around 5:30 PM and that water was really warm I would say 80 at least once you warm up it felt really hot.
After that practice swim I knew a wetsuit swim was not happening.
Here somebody didn't told the truth about water temp on Saturday or just as they anounnce on Sunday they were not prepare on how to know who was wearing a wetsuit and who was not.

Oh for crying out loud, this is ST, I get my hyperbole. In the grand scheme of things, this is really only comparable to the Gulf DIsaster and, perhaps, the death of Michael JAckson.

And,the "disaster" was mostly a personal once since I, uh, got off course twice an, uh, swam a good it slower than I thought I would.

Bob

Participants would evaluate those chances differently for no-wetsuits-over-78 vs. no-wetsuits-over-84. One might register for an event if one figured there was a 1 in 100 chance of not being allowed to wear a wetsuit but not if there was a 1 in 20 chance. Thus the need for explaining the rules clearly beforehand.

"Why is it that people assume that, because it's never happened before, a race is always wetsuit legal? I just don't understand this mindset. Be prepared: the Choptank isn't the St. Lawrence River. Every triathlon has the possibility of odd weather, including water that is way beyond normal temperatures. Deal with it and stop whining. Nothing in any set of rules anyone comes up with says that a race is guaranteed to be wetsuit legal or illegal. You pays your money and you takes your chances. "


Exactly. I keep coming back to the question of why everyone is so worked up over the fact that wetsuits weren't allowed. If you go to a race which historically has been wetsuit legal, but is not the day you show up, is that the RD's fault? No. There is no guarantee that any race will be wetsuit legal (other than Alcatraz, but you get my point).

Now, I understand that if Vigo stated on Saturday that it would be wetsuit legal, then changed that on race morning, people may have a legitimate gripe about being misled, etc. I would tend to agree with that, since the water temps likely don't increase overnight and perhaps he should't make such absolute statements if there was ANY chance they would not hold true. Also, the announcements yesterday morning clearly stated that they weren't allowing the "optional wetsuits swim" because they would have no way of telling who wore one and who didn't for purposes of awards, slots, etc. Again, probably not a legit excuse and definitely something that could be dealt with via some advance planning.

However, with all that said, I simply think each athlete needs to show up for any race prepared to swim w/o a wetsuit. Look, I suck at swimming and had a 45 minute swim yesterday. Would I have preferred using my wetsuit? Of course. But after swimming in the river on Friday, I definitely thought there was a good chance they'd scrap the wetuits. It was just too freaking warm to do the 1.2 miles in a fullsuit. Some posters have said that the decision to swim naked ruined people's races because they had to expend so much more energy, but I think just as much damage could have been done if it was a wet suit swim and people started overheating before they even got to the bike. No matter what teh case, there will always be people who are not happy.

On a positive note, I think the race was well run and CTA puts on a great event. The conditions were pretty tough in all three disciplines so whether you had the race of your life or just finished, it was a good effort and congrats to you. Personally, I will be signing up for another Eagleman.

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I proudly DO NOT post my workouts on Facebook!!!

To turn our attention back to something perhaps more productive than arguing about whether CTA did a good job of explaining/following rules yesterday...

What exactly was the deal with the current yesterday? I see that high tide was at 5:43am. Were we swimming into a strong outgoing tide? And I did not notice any difference on the inbound leg -- were we swimming the wrong way around an eddy?

Someone's purported ignorance of the rule that day is analagous to racing a bike course you have never seen, and trusting that all the turns will be clearly marked and marshaled. They trust that the RD and his deputies will bail them out by telling them where to turn and if not, then they better hope they get it right. Exactly that scenario happened a couple of years ago at Columbia when Chris McCormack and a couple of other leading men rode off the course because they didn't know a turn and no marshal happened to be standing there. To their credit, they acknowledged their responsibility: stuff happens sometimes. It's up to the athlete to know the rules before race day.


I don't know. I was not there. Giving you the benefit of any doubt, look to my earlier post on the process of measuring water temperature in the day before and the morning of the race. Can the water change two degrees overnight? I have no idea (physicists and meterologists, help!). Maybe they took a bad reading the day before? Maybe someone dumped an ice chest 10 meters away from where they dropped the thermometer. Who knows? What every athlete should know is that the ruling is not carved in stone until race time, and then it is the head referee's call, without regard to anything the RD did, or did not, say at the meeting the day before.


See above. That is exactly the procedure called for in the rules. Yes, it is rare. In fact I have never seen it changed from the day before the race, but that is what's called for if the temp is 78 or above.


I would take your statement and turn it around: people have a responsibility to plan accordingly, including the foreseeable possibility (not certainty, not even likelihood, but the possibility) that they would not be permitted to wear a wetsuit. It seems like you did not have the Eagleman experience you were hoping for, so that is always disappointing and you have my sympathy for that. But if your disappointment is based solely on having your wetsuit taken from you in transition on race morning, then I think it is sorely misplaced.

Does anyone know what the water temp was on Saturday? That would give us an idea if it went up 2 degrees or not. I've read a lot of people state it was warm. It probably should have been posted at Registration to give everyone an idea/expectation if it would have been wetsuit legal or not. Then race morning, you can bring your wetsuit or not when the final decision is made.

---

"The men who try to do something and fail, are infinitely better off than those who try to do nothing and succeed." Lloyd James

Agreed.

Vigo is one of the top RDs in the country. He made the right call based on the rules and situation at the time of the race.

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http://twitter.com/tridave

| Bonzai Sports | Blue Seventy | First Endurance |

Back to the argument...

How are we supposed to be aware of a rule that is never stated? And don't point to the "Race Rules" because, as I mentioned above, it does not logically follow from that statement that wetsuits are disallowed at temperatures above 78.

X2

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I proudly DO NOT post my workouts on Facebook!!!

I think you attended the same logic class as Woody Allen:

All men are mortal.
Socrates was mortal.
Therefore, all men are Socrates.

That was right before he was expelled from his metaphysics class when the professor caught him cheating by looking into the soul of the student next to him.

If you fail to see the inverse of the rule there is nothing I can say that will persuade you. Best of luck to you sir. I'm finished here.

"I told him "Be fruitful, and multiply." But not in so many words"

I don't know anyone who knows Woody Allen's standup routines!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yes the tide was going out and it is much stronger than we realize sometimes.
I did hear a rumor they were delaying due to tide, hoping it would be a little more slack when the later waves went off.

As an Eagleman registrant, you received an email (I wonder if you read it) that contained the following statements:

"Ironman and Ironman 70.3 events are sanctioned by USA Triathlon (USAT). Ironman has been granted certain rule dispensations so please read the following information carefully as the rules may differ slightly from other USAT-sanctioned events. "

and later in that same email -

"5. Wetsuits are allowed for all athletes if the water is 78 degrees Fahrenheit or colder. "

and later in that same email -

"Ironman reserves the right to make changes to these rules at any time. Notification of any change will be in accordance with USAT procedures."

Please note the following from USAT's website information on Rules.

1.4 Rules Exceptions and Additions. For any particular event, a race director may request from USA Triathlon a

specific exception or addition to these Rules. Any such request should be made with the consideration of the

participant�s safety as the highest priority. All requests for Rule changes must be made in writing. All exceptions or

additions to these Rules must be expressly approved in writing by the Executive Director of USA Triathlon and

must be announced to all participants prior to the event.

I see the inverse of the rule. The inverse of the rule is "if the water temp is above 78 then wetsuits are not allowed." The problem is that the inverse is not the same as the original statement.

Please see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_(logic)

and note the statement "the inverse of a conditional is not inferable from the conditional." (Or check this out in any Discrete Mathematics or Logic textbook).

So again: someone please find where CTA clearly states the rule "at Eagleman, wetsuits are allowed if and only if the water temperature is 78 degrees or lower".

Let's see, this is not even the current rules, as was posted. Yep, they did not have any pro-active USAT ruling if they wanted to ask for a waiver from the 78-84 rule. Looks like someone tried to play games with the water temp since clearly, it had to be over 78 on Sat based on folks comments who were there. Sounds like if there was not a first class USAT official the water would have been 77.9, since this race did not have all the required processes in place, like what do they do when they have to use the 78-84 rule.

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Exactly the reason for the delay.

As we swimming before the race, one of the lifeguards who waved people in said "You'll are going to get your asses kicked swimming towards the bridge."

Yes, I did read it. I read everything on every link before the race. Nowhere did I find the statement "wetsuits will not be allowed if the water temperature is over 78 degrees." I recommend Discrete Mathematics with Applications by Susanna Epp if you would like to read about conditionals, their inverses, converses, and contrapositives.

Or are you saying that CTA made their written request Sunday morning and that the announcement at 6:30am or so was the prior notice?

I have refrained from comment but can't bite my tongue anymore.

This all makes me sad. This is a sport for most and something done for enjoyment. There are rules and sometimes they need to be bent due to circumstances and mother nature. The rules are in place to protect the athletes and spectators as much as possible.

Eagleman is a long running triathlon and the RD's and their crews put on a very good event. What they could have done or should have done is now irrelavent, but can be lessons learned for the future events.

That being said, anyone that enters a triathlon should have the common sense to know there are inherint risks that are beyond the control of humans. Sh!t happens.

What I'm guessing happened is that the USAT official took the temp on race day, stuck to his guns that it was 78+ degrees and the RD's had to make a very quick decision as they had 2500 athletes jacked up on caffeine and god-knows what else waiting to SBR.

As athletes entering a triathlon, we should be ready to adapt to the situation at hand. The RD's did not make it so it was impossible for people to compete (like the comment about no aero helmet, which is not the same because a helmet is required for safety and some people might not have brought another non-aero helmet and therefore would not be able to participate at all).

It could have been done differently (not better or worse, but differently), but I honestly think it's a shame that there is so much arguement over specific symantics of rules for a sport that we "participate" in. For the vast majority, peoples livelihoods were not at stake on this fateful Sunday.

Adapt and overcome. Or maybe I'm just an elitist.

I do not understand your position. I go to a race with my wetsuit. If the water is 77.9 or under, I use it. If it is over 78, I need to look at the conditions and see what I am racing for. I might decide to follow the rules, which were published, and use my wetsuit and not worry about awards. So, what quick decision was there for the RD to make? He had already better have had ready what contract he signed to agree to follow the rules. Sorry, I do not understand, with the current data presented, how you can defend them. And to be a "surprise" on Sunday the the USAT official did their job correctly, is even a bigger concern. When I was the RD for the race at LOP, I would measure the water temp each morning and update the website with real time information. No surprises. Since so many have used attacks to defend this RD's process, rather than facts that everything was above board, it just does not smell right. Now, there are some RD's out there that just stand up and admit their mistakes. When Charlie did this with his Rev3 race, he got lots of points from me. Why is the RD from this race not getting on and stating the facts. It is one thing to say one messed up. It is another to try and deflect the fair questions. Remember, no dumb questions, only dumb answers.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If they allowed people to wear wetsuits and not qualify for awards how would they know at the end who wore wetsuits and who didn't?

Mike

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WTC policy.
I think it was a good idea. Perhaps lessons learned from Timberman '09 where a wetsuit was a bad idea in the respect continuous overheating of the body.

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I've been at a couple races where they have one heat after all others with all the folks that want to wear wetsuits. With chip timing it is not too hard to back out all those folks in the results. It usually is not too big a heat, as most feel pressure to not wear their suits..

But they did make it much more difficult for people to avoid being DQed without giving them the information they would need in order to assess their chances of being DQed.

That is exactly the process that must be ready to go, as per the USAT contract. Now, the only RD I have found so far who would answer the question was Vineman. For the few times in their history the water is over 78, and using a wetsuit means no awards, they have all the folks remove themselves for the normal wave starts. Then they added one wave start at the very end. When they exit the corral with there timing chips on, it records all of them. The time then just makes these all wetsuit folks who cannot get awards, and off they go. Pretty simple, if you have the plan done before hand, like all RD's should have ready. Not the water is 77.9 answer I have seen a number of times first hand.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What do you mean WTC policy? Uncle Phil posted there latest rules and it clearly stated, wetsuits can be used between 78 and 84, just no awards

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I will stand next to the RD as I have raced at Eagleman and I have Co-RD'd a large tri event and can understand the confusion. Bottom line is the safety of the participants and it sounds like there was great potential for heat exhaustion and heat stroke.

As much as I enjoy ST and the fine people that post here, I don't think it's a rquirement for all RD's to have to come on ST and defend themselves.

I agree, I give a big standing O to ANYONE that stands up and admits their own faults. Rev3 guys are way above par in my book, but then again, I alone don't appear on anyones radar...yet...

The money and masses will talk and Eagleman will sell out completely next year. And I'm sure they will have a plan for water temperatures between 76 and 84 degrees.

Yep, exactly what Vineman does and I would expect all others should do

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Now, if only the RD would come and post I am sorry, I messed up, and I will have a written plan ready for next year. At 76 as the cutoff, many of these races in WTC better be ready.

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Do yuou really want too ?

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Then in that case, those people were not trained well enough to handle the situation. Not every race is going to be perfect conditions for every athlete.

And this goes back to the arguement of learning to swim better. You are implying that people needed their wetsuit to aide them in order to go faster to beat the cut-off time.

And before anyone says it, yes, I think there should be a "Kona" rule for bikes that states that if the weather conditions call for it (excessively high winds), then disc wheels should not be used. It's a matter of safety and all racers should come prepared to use a non-disc rear wheel.

Why are you so mad at the RD?

Just don't sign up for Eagleman next year.

Do Vineman or Rev3 next year and wear a wetsuit when its 78+ degree water.

I think you need to get over it.

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Yes.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I am not "mad" at anyone. BUT, I do care about our sport. I care how others in our sport are treated. I care about our rules. I care about trying to see RD's follow rules. I care that ITU, WTC and USAT have different rules which makes these types of messes happen, and they seemed to be getting further apart, which makes it worse. I have worn a wetsuit when the RD said the water temp was 77.9, and I measured 82, more than once. I care that so many seem to just want to ignore rules THEY do not like, but bitch on others they DO like.

Just my personality, I try to help improve stuff, which means one has to start by asking tough TQC questions on what the problem statement is.

Yes, and I fully understand this means I have lots of arrow in the back. :o)

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

  

"Now, if only the RD would come and post I am sorry, I messed up, and I will have a written plan ready for next year. At 76 as the cutoff, many of these races in WTC better be ready.[/reply] "

OMG, an RD doesn't need to come on ST and apologize. LOL. That's absurd. If he did, then cool, but not a necessity to ease the wounded ego's of triathletes not able to cope with a non-wetsuit swim.

Listen, I spent a TON of money to go to Oceanside this year to qualify for Clearwater. I lost 4 minutes on a drafting call when the dude in front of me just past me and sat up to take a drink on the steepest incline of the bike course. He was blocking, but I lost 4 minutes for the penalty. It pissed me off for the entire race.

Bottom line, sh!t happens and I didn't qualify for Clearwater. But not because of the drafting 4 minutes, but because I wasn't prepared to deal with the situation and I let it ruin my race. And I wasn't really fit enough to battle Desert Dude and JPFlores. But should I go on ST and demand the bike marshall should come on ST and apologize for all drafting calls that are actually should have been blocking calls? Please.

And before I argue anymore, Dave, did you or have you ever raced at Eagleman before? Just wondering, because anyone that has been in the Choptank should know that it can change rapidly there. Either way you are entitled to your opinion, I'm just curious.

[reply
Just my personality, I try to help improve stuff, which means one has to start by asking tough TQC questions on what the problem statement is.

Yes, and I fully understand this means I have lots of arrow in the back. :o)[/reply]

TQC....there is the problem. The specs have been upgraded in the past decade, we no longer use TQC or TQM, it was all BS anyways.

OMG, an RD doesn't need to come on ST and apologize. LOL. That's absurd. If he did, then cool, but not a necessity to ease the wounded ego's of triathletes not able to cope with a non-wetsuit swim.

Listen, I spent a TON of money to go to Oceanside this year to qualify for Clearwater. I lost 4 minutes on a drafting call when the dude in front of me just past me and sat up to take a drink on the steepest incline of the bike course. He was blocking, but I lost 4 minutes for the penalty. It pissed me off for the entire race.

Bottom line, sh!t happens and I didn't qualify for Clearwater. But not because of the drafting 4 minutes, but because I wasn't prepared to deal with the situation and I let it ruin my race. And I wasn't really fit enough to battle Desert Dude and JPFlores. But should I go on ST and demand the bike marshall should come on ST and apologize for all drafting calls that are actually should have been blocking calls? Please.

And before I argue anymore, Dave, did you or have you ever raced at Eagleman before? Just wondering, because anyone that has been in the Choptank should know that it can change rapidly there. Either way you are entitled to your opinion, I'm just curious.[/reply]
Nope, other than Nationals or worlds, never done a race out of Calif, and have no plans to.

You, and some others are totally missing the point, but I am just trying to ask a fair macro level question, and some folks want to just go for the kill. I understand this, seen it many many times in life.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

TQC....there is the problem. The specs have been upgraded in the past decade, we no longer use TQC or TQM, it was all BS anyways.[/reply]
Well, I used in the last decade many times to work on tough emotional issues. Now, maybe in the last 15 months with no job things have changed. :o)

I guess you are right, who cares. All these races fill up anyways. Forward on

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just so this thread doesn't die ...

I'll restate that I was DQ'd; swimming 1:14 in my bike shorts. I left my swim suit in the car at their shuttle parking lot because I thought it was a wetsuit swim. No way to get back to the car when I learned it was no wetsuit.

Something that hasn't been discussed is the large number of folks shown on the 'unofficial results' as finishers when they should also have been DQ for exceeding 1:10 in the swim. When I finished the bike, there was duct tape at my bike rack with my race number and 'Do not run.' I asked to run, but was told to turn in my chip. Not sure how they are dealing with the folks that kept their chip and ran anyway.

$250 for a shirt that I can't wear! Still debating going back next year.

While we're talking logistics - the traffic getting back over the Bay Bridge was a bear - 90 minutes to cover 5 miles. Why can't this race be scheduled a week before Memorial Day so we have cooler weather and avoid the summer beach crowds?

Jim B.

I think you are wildly blowing this out of proportion. It is not the end of the world and I, for one, am not taking a "kill shot".

I just think that an athlete should be able to adapt to most situations. If they can't, then they can go back, train, and try again.

Again, it sucks for those that were counting on a wetsuit swim. But I don't think people should go into an endurance race thinking conditions will alwys be the same. Everyone should plan for a little extra distance, a little extra heat, a little extra wind, a little extra humidity. But again, that's just my opinion.

Dude, that sucks, I feel for you.

But...do you mean swim skin when you say swim suit? Were you planning on a full wardrobe change? I mean, that is totally your choice to do so, who am I to knock it, I'm just wondering what the plan was?

While this does suck for you, I would email the RD with your concerns and any comments regarding the race, negative and/or positive (feedback is always a good thing either way), but I wouldn't let it get in the way of signing up again for next year. Get revenge on the course. Train your butt off and destroy the course next year. It's the epic battle of DNF to PR!!!!

All I would like to see is the ability to know the rules before I sign up for a race. Then as things happen and changes are made following the rules, I am 100% with you. When I RD a race, I try to exceed this goal for the athletes. The couple of times things did not work out as planned, I said I was sorry, offered them free entry into the race for next year, and made changes to hopefully fix some things we had not thought of.

Now, I do think that taking a person who signed up for a race, and trained for one assuming they could wear a wetsuit up to 84 degrees, and then giving them a surprise on race morning is putting folks safety at risk. But, just my opinion, and something I hope I would never do to racers.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Will you wear your wetsuit at your next race if it's over 78 degrees...or will you follow the rules the RD hands down on race morning? Will you argue the rules or follow the direction of the RD? Can you accept the fact that the RD is in charge and will make his/her best judgement given the information at hand?

On Sunday, Vigo made the call based on the information given to him. He made the call with the rules and safety of the athletes in mind. He didn't make this call lightly knowing the consternation it would cause.

Having raced on Sunday, I can say he made the right call. The water was very warm and fudging the 77.9 temp would have raised the risk of more heat exhaustion for athletes racing in the 90+ degree heat.

It sucks that the swim was 'long' due to the current. It sucks that some people were DQed because of it and couldn't finish the race. But this stuff happens all the time. All you can do it prepare the best you can and accept that the conditions might not be ideal on race morning.

It is easy for you to pass judgement from California for a race that occurred in Maryland on Sunday. You look at the facts and compare the language in the emails, website, and rule books. But in the end, the facts on the ground at the time of the race are what determined the actions of the RD.

Bottom line, the RD made the call. If you plan on doing a race in mid-atlantic region, you better be prepared for the possibility of a non-wetsuit swim. It could happen and when the decision is made, it will come from the RD and you'll need to deal with it.

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Yes, that's what I'm implying. I wouldn't have any problem with it if it had been announced ahead of time (prior to registration) that there would be no wetsuits over 78. Then everyone knows what they're getting into. But asking quite a few people to fork over $255 and then changing the rules at the last minute into something they won't be able to finish seems wrong, especially if the reason for the rule change is because the RD wasn't prepared for high water temperatures despite readings around 78 for the previous week.

That is what they announced. i assume because you cannot win an award if you wear one and it is above 78 that they decided the risk of heat stroke from overheating was more of an issue than having a faster swim. I was in an early wave and the heat was brutal. if you were in a later wave and spent an hour cooking in a wetsuit, then went for the bike and run, the risk of overheating would have been far greater than if you had not worn a wetsuit. It sounds like a smart risk management program for the RD to me.
I actually felt like I had a good swim but the tide was ebbing at the start (causing us to swim against current) and the return leg was in an area where the tidal current was effectively negated by the Yacht club Pier. I think the amount of time gain was fairly inline with what I have previously seen in other races where we swam with a strong current so i don't think that the course was off by much.

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Allowing someone to wear a wetsuit in a jacuzzi before racing a half ironman in 90+ degree heat is "putting folks safety at risk".

I think that is the point you don't get. The rules might allow wetsuits up to 84 degrees, but the RD can trump that rule if it puts the athletes safety at risk.

The RD made the call with the athletes safety in mind.

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The last race where I knew the water was 82, and the RD said 77.9, I did NOT wear my wetsuit since I had overheated in a previous race where it felt hot. (I was not able to measure that race). I got my buck kicked in the race and it impacted my ranking, but my safety was more important. Now, if USAT every lowers their wet suit temp, it shall be interesting since some races I do tend to be on the warm side. I am always ready for a non wetsuit swim. I just would like a little more time to mentally prepare but I understand the need to just go with what happens on race day.

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But they stated over the PA system that the reason was that they didn't have a way to keep track of everyone, not that they were concerned about safety.

Just to clarify - I planned to wear bike shorts and a long-sleeve Craft sun shirt under the wetsuit - so that's what I brought to the start area. I had a regular swim suit and a Blue-Seventy swim skin in the car, but left them because everything you took to the race start you had to shlep 4 miles back to your car after the race. Once you arrived at the race site there was no way back to the car (unless you took the initiative to ignore their parking plan and parked along the local streets - as apparently many folks smarter than I did). Hope this provides additional perspective on why the 180 degree wetsuit change from Saturday to Sunday caught me off guard.

Also not sure why folks that missed the swim cut-off are shown in the results when others were told to get off the course.

Just to clarify - DQ - not DNF, but the end effect is the same. I already sent a note to the timer to clarify the results and will send suggestions to the RD.

Thanks for your comments, Jim B.

I believe you are missing the point. It is not like this is something new. When WTC put out rules, they could have made a change like over 78 no wetsuits, period, or 76 or whatever they want. WTC, they, are the experts. RD's should not be second guessing them, IMO. But the difference is I am a process guy, and believe RD's should be ready for what happens on race day, just like you are asking us athletes to do. But, it looks like we just have different expectations of an RD.

And if you can show me, in published writing from WTC, that the RD has the authority to basically throw out the rule book on race day, based on just his/her opinion, I guess I will have learned something new about WTC.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

They also said "the tide is ebbing... no the tide is slack there is nor current"

you realize that if they say that there is a heat risk and they don't cancel the race and someone suffers a heat stroke or similar injury they will probably get a lawsuit from someone ignoring the "participant assumes all risk clause" so they probably would not make such a statement.

honestly, it being a qualifier race look at it as practice for the event that you are qualifying for.... a race where you cannot wear a wetsuit...

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I think CTA knows full well that not all of the 2000+ participants are in it for the slots. If they want to run a race solely for those folks then I doubt they'd get as much support from the community. Bottom line: if you're going to allow the masses then you ought to treat them fairly.

To be fair, it was only 2 1/4 miles back to the parking lot. But where were the shuttles that were supposed to start going back at noon?


Let us know what you hear from either of them. I'll do the same, having sent my suggestions to CTA this morning.

Absolutely. But certainly we can expect the same degree of preparation from the RD. There are over 140 posts on this thread, and still there is disagreement about what the rules required. While there are a bunch of anectodal swim reports about the water being hot and the possiblity of overheating with a wetsuit, the fact is that was not the stated reason for the change on race morning. The announcement was only that they were changing it to a non wetsuit swim because the water was over 78 and that they had no way to track people who would have decided to still race w/ a wetsuit. That was THEIR reason. Since they didn't have a system in place, they wouldn't allow racers to use wetsuits. The decision was never communicated to be one based on safety considerations. It was communicated to be based on a desire to ensure tracking accuracy. The safety issue is hard to argue with -- of course everyone wants to make decisions to protect the safety of the racers. But in this instance it's being used to justify a rule deviation that was made for completely different reasons. They had no way to track wetsuit racers, so they said no wetsuits.

People on Saturday were hovering around the "swim-out" and going for quick swims in their wetsuits. There had to be close to 50 people there at one point, all in wetsuits, all jumping in and taking short swims. None of them came out complaining of the water being too warm. Lots of people were complaining when they changed the rule on race morning. The water on Saturday couldn't have been very different on Sunday (see some of the posts above about people doing a quick test swim and stating how warm the water was). We were told on Saturday by the RD that it was a wetsuit swim. There were 2 pre-race meetings on Saturday, and not a single comment was made that raised even the slightest possibility that there could be a change that eliminated wetsuits altogether. Not a single comment at packet pick-up, not a single comment at the pre-race meetings, not a single comment when racking your bike. The river didn't shoot up 2 degrees overnight. Why didn't they tell everyone on Saturday? Why did the RD sound so absolutist about it being a wetsuit swim less than 24 hours before the race?

Conditions less than ideal? Adapt. The bike is windy? Adapt. The current is strong? Adapt. The rules are unclear? Make them clear. You're an RD and not sure if it's going to be a wetsuit swim? Don't tell everyone it's a wetsuit swim. You have no way of tracking wetsuit racers who want to race and forego awards? Adapt. I guarantee you the RD will have a contingency in place next year, and that with the exact same conditions they'll allow wetsuits and have a system that tracks those racers.

This was not a safety-based decision. This was a decision based on not having an adequate tracking system in place for people who wanted to race w/ wetsuits.

 
Unlike the apparently thorny issue of whether "yes < 78" requires "no > 78" the swim rule no.7 seems pretty transparent: "The time limit for the swim is 1:10 from the start of your individual wave."

Doesn't quite square with the 40+ people recording finishing times with swims of 1:11 or more. To say nothing of two finishers with swims over 1:40.

I assume the results are still preliminary and they'll be DQ'd later, but how hard can it be to spot a cap that's 1:53 after the appropriate wave start? And how cruel to let them finish in 9:21 and then DQ them afterwards.

Sounds like you got a rough deal. Or maybe you were spared!

Maybe the RD can make the following adaptations to the 2011 event.

Last wave is for all those who wish to simply participate to complete the course rather than race for awards or slots.

Last wave is a "participants" wave and goes off 60 minutes after the previous wave to keep it mostly seperate from the competitor waves.
Wetsuits allowed, use at your own discretion
Drafting discouraged but not penalized
Blocking discouraged but not penalized
Overtaken/Position fouls not assessed
Official race results say FINISHER (no splits or time, they were not properly racing for time anyway) - but you can still get a slip with your time from the timers just like they did at the race site after you finish.

OR

Maybe those who sign up for a half ironman race can treat the challenge with the respect it deserves and put in the time to learn to swim with more confidence/faster/safer or whatever their concern is that makes them feel the need for a wetsuit.

And everyone should get a nice trophy for "participating", to recognize their achievement.

They do dont they ? Does not everyone get a nice finishers medal :o) If i did the race I would look at it as a equalizer not having a wetsuit. Anyway if i did do it I would be pissed tha they offered a KONA spot to any 40-44 who would take it but they are the breaks. I should not have himmed and hawed about signing up. anyway what is done os done you cannot get it back.

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You're right - 2 1/4 miles - I just checked Google Maps - had to stop to ask a policeman for directions - luckily I knew it was the Middle School - he wanted to send me to the Elementary School. As far as shuttles - we were told no bikes on the shuttle - you were expected to ride your bike back to your car. Of course this wasn't an option before the race because bikes were 'locked' in transition.

Thanks for your comments. Hope you had a better weekend. Jim B.

More condescension towards weak swimmers. Thanks.

Stop giving official times for "participants" and you'll find far fewer of us in your way at events. But then fewer triathletes = fewer, more poorly supported races, less money invested in developing new gear, etc. That's not going to be good for anyone. (This is the way this argument usually goes, right?)

I'm getting the feeling that those who don't care about rules changing 1 hour before an event are all in the front-of-the-pack crowd who aren't affected much by the change.

You're right, of course: no bikes on the shuttle even if they had been running. My wife would have appreciated a shuttle, though. We were lucky enough to stumble on the signed route back to the lot even though we apparently went out the "wrong" way from the park (meaning out an exit from which the route wasn't signed), and I had my phone for maps so that wasn't a problem for us.

Good luck at your next event -- I'm doing the bike leg of a mixed relay at the Celebration Sprint in 2 weeks.

For all the people that was not there, re-read the bold. The RACE ANNOUNCER did not state safety as a reason why wetsuits were not allowed above 78. The RACE ANNOUNCER stated that the reason was because they had no way of telling whether a person was there to race to just to complete the event. All of these posts citing safety as a reason is a bunch of uninformed people.

Safety might be the reason but that was not what the RACE ANNOUNCER stated was the reason. This means that they had no plan for an above 78 degrees swim.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

"I'm getting the feeling that those who don't care about rules changing 1 hour before an event are all in the front-of-the-pack crowd who aren't affected much by the change. "


I am not a FOP racer but I didn't care about the rule change and still don't see what the big deal is. All of us who raced were subject to the same conditions, rules (or changes thereto), etc. No one had any advantage over anyone else. I carried my wetsuit to transition in the morning only to find out it was a non-wetsuit swim. Sucks, but what you gonna do? I am not a strong swimmer by any stretch but if you're going to show up to a race, one should be prepared to race in the conditions on the day. If the water was >78 or the RD (or USAT Official) said no wetsuits, then you swim without one and it what it is. I agree that it shoudln't have been stated as a certainty on Saturday that wetsuits would be allowed, but as I see it that was the only mistake. If people are picking races based upon the liklihood of wetsuit swims, then they should either put more time in at the pool or pick another sport. At 78 degrees, no one NEEDs a wetsuit. I wasn't happy with my time (slower than I've gone there before) but I think that most people on this thread should spend less time online and more time in the pool. Again, not picking on weak swimmers, but come on guys . . .

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I proudly DO NOT post my workouts on Facebook!!!

We were prepared a week in advance for a nonwetsuit swim. A simple google of bay temps would have given anyone who cared to check it an idea that the swim might be too warm for a wetsuit. I am not a good swimmer, however I don't think anyone should be doing triathlon if they 'need' their wetsuit to feel safe in the water or to complete the swim distance. It is triathlon and that implies that you not only know how to swim, you consider it a segment of a competitive event.

Here is the link for water temps, it may come in handy at some future race:

http://www.wunderground.com/MAR/AN/533.html

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Nor do I use punctuation in the way a child sprinkles glitter over a ribbon of glue on construction paper - Trash Talk

More condescension towards weak swimmers? I AM a weak swimmer...so put your high horse back in it's stable with the horsepoo arguments you are spouting. Next time you are out on the course, look around you at your fellow athletes. 95 percent of them are HTFUing and just doing the race. YOU are the exception, the whiner, the one who just can't accept the results of your own lack of preparedness. What was your plan if race day water temps had been 85 degrees? Consider yourself lucky that one of the properties of a wetsuit is it's positive flotation so that you can participate in a sport which you would otherwise be unable to participate in. Ingrate.

Seriously, cry me a river. David Kahn swam the course in 25 minutes. If people can't complete the swim at 36% the speed of him, then they should be DQ'd. There are other people who got closed out of registration who certainly can complete a TRIathlon. Its pretty hard to argue someone is a triathlete if he or she is reliant upon a wetsuit to make it through a 1.2 mile swim. So like I said, cry me a river, or at least don't swim in a river which has a history of tides, winds, jellyfish, and hot temps.

 
All this swim condescension is juvenile. It seems to assume that all of our methods and rationale should be the same. Who's to say that one persons rationale is superior to the next. And where are the USAT or WTC swim requirements? I do agree that every person needs to show up on race day prepared to cover the distance within the time limits. In my mind that's actually rule number one in triathlon. This was my second Eagleman. The 2008 race was my first HIM. I'm probably like lots of people, in that I *assumed* that wetsuits would only be banned if water temps were above 84 degrees. So yeah, I was surprised by the announcement that wetsuits were banned. My normal anxiety about the swim was definitely increased. Anyway, in 08 I swam 46. This year I swam 1:14 and I'm a better swimmer now than I was 2 years ago, having done lots of work on my swim in preparation for IMLP last year, and continuing to work up to the current time. So I finished the swim, huge triumph in my mind. Me overcoming my own self inflicted limitations. I then proceeded to complete the bike and the run. Afterward I sat and ate and chatted with my friends and family for probably an hour and half. It wasnt until I went back to get my stuff out of transition that I noticed a piece of duct tape next to my name on the bike stand that said to not run because I had been DQ'd. No one said a single word to me about getting off the course or being DQ. So if noone stops you what does DQ really mean? If someone had said something, given some explanation, I would have stepped aside without much ballyhoo. Glad to not have to run in that heat. As it is, I finished in 6:55. Certainly not up to ST standards but it's a number for me to shoot for next time. Heck I knew coming in that I wasn't going to win any awards. The results say nothing about DQ. I didn't like the last minute wetsuit ban but I understand that we need to show up ready to deal with whatever situation presents itself. Also, if they knew about the tides and current, why didn't they reverse the course so that you'd be swimming with the current down the final leg? Just like it was 2 years ago? Don't they have enough experience with this location to understand how the current works? That's not a complaint, just wondering. I'm glad to be able to say I completed it just as it was.

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"Just HTFU and out sprint whoever tries to take 96th from you. This is a RACE, not a cupcake walk! " -Fungshuay@ST

I feel bad for you that you weren't able to finish the whole course, but really? Carrying about half a pound of clothes would have put your load over the edge?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Those transition areas are small enough that why would you need to bring extra stuff there that you don't need? I brought my wetsuit with me to the transition area. When they say no wetsuits allowed, I walked back to my car (10 min walk) to put the wetsuit away. I think that it's common courtesy to not clutter the transition are with anything that you don't need. If you are lead to believe (correctly or incorrectly) that it's a wetsuit legal swim, why would you bring your wetsuit and the skinsuit?

It's kind of like, ok ... it's going to be 90 degrees today but I'll bring my long sleeve bike jersey and long leg bike tights with me just in case it gets cold and drafty when I get out of the swim. If I don't need it then I'll just leave it all there in the transition area like a locker room area. Same type of situation. Why bring things that you don't need and clutter up the place?

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Not to dog pile, but I always carry my B70 Helix full sleeve and B70 Swin Skin in my Zoot Transition bag. I will only wear my Helix if it's too cold or I think I have a shot at the podium and my competition is wearing a full sleeve as well.

I was a Boy Scout, so I am always prepared. When I get home from a race, I clean the clothes and put them back into my Transition bag and replenish my supplements for the next race.

To dog pile, same here but no swim skin. I do have a speedo FSII and desoto tri top . It goes right under wetsuit and guess what I can take wetsuit off and just swim in that. Probably does just as good as a b70 :) or not. Any how talking about a thread that keeps on beating a dead horse.

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Official Polar Ambassador
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My plan for 85 degree water was to swim without a wetsuit -- just like I did on Sunday. The difference is that I knew that there wasn't much chance of the water being that warm, so I was willing to take the risk.

My plan for 79 degree water, which I knew was likely because I had been following NOAA's reported water temperatures (see http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/...ge.php?station=camm2; there's a link at the bottom for 45 days' worth of measurements), was to swim in a wetsuit and accept the lack of awards and prizes I wasn't going to win anyway.

The only reason for the complaints that have been aired in this thread is that CTA was not prepared to follow the wetsuit-but-no-awards rule for 78 to 84 degree water. That rule was clearly stated in at least three places on the website. It is also stated on the WTA website. The document on the Eagleman site's "Race Rules" link, which some, falling victim to the inverse error, see as contravening the standard rule, gives a summary of the standard rule and omits what happens above 78 degress for brevity. That document comes from WTA and is the same for every Ironman race; how can it be read to contradict the full WTA rule?

This isn't a matter of people whining because they had a few extra minutes on their times. This isn't a matter of the 10th place M35-39 whining because the swim is his weak leg and he thinks he'd have gotten a Clearwater slot with a wetsuit. This is a matter of people being DQed -- and many of them obeyed their "do not run" notices. Perhaps the weakest of the weak swimmers wouldn't have made the cutoff even in a wetsuit. But we've already met a few in this thread who probably would have made it.

Those people spent $255+ on a race they had every reason to think they'd be allowed to finish. Because of CTA's lack of preparation (and remember, they can use the NOAA's site too) they were not allowed to do so. Is that fair?

I've corrected attacks on my logic from people who don't know what they're talking about. It has been implied that I'd drown without a wetsuit (obviously I didn't). I've called people out on their condescending "if you're slow, don't compete" rants. I've tried to present some facts. For this I'm a whiner?

CTA should have noticed there was a good chance of high water temperatures and done one of the following: 1) developed a plan for tracking wetsuit versus non-wetsuit; or 2) announced the possibility of 79-degrees-and-no-wetsuit with the offer of a refund or deferral.
Given that they did neither, they should offer a refund or comp entry to those who were DQed but likely would have made the cutoff in a wetsuit. (But even this doesn't do justice to some who completed the swim but in such bad condition that they DNFed. Again, some would have DNFed anyway, but a few would not have if they'd had a wetsuit.)

USAT officials measure the water temp, not the RD. From what I know the water was measured below 78 on Sat., not the case on Sunday morning. This could happen for numerous reasons......mainly location of taking the temp. Maybe the RD assumed that if it was good on Sat then it certainly should be good on Sunday??? as far as the lack of a plan to account for "non-award" participants, not sure what was the case there. I can say that I was in the Choptank the Sunday before the race and the water was warmer than it was this past Sunday.

"Given that they did neither, they should offer a refund or comp entry to those who were DQed but likely would have made the cutoff in a wetsuit. (But even this doesn't do justice to some who completed the swim but in such bad condition that they DNFed. Again, some would have DNFed anyway, but a few would not have if they'd had a wetsuit.) "

You're arguing 2 different things. I agree they should have allowed people to use wetsuits for temps between 78-84, but they didn't.

HOWEVER, you should not need a wetsuit in 78+ degree weather to complete a 1.2 mile swim in the required cut-off time. If you can not do this without a wetsuit, then you should wait to enter a race such as a 70.3 until you can.

Also, for the athletes that were not allowed to run while others were that had a swim time over 1 hour, I think the ruling is up to the RD and it has to do with wave times. I think the cut-off is 1:05 after the start of the last wave. So if you were in the first couple of waves (besides the pro's), then you had longer to complete the course than the last wave did.

By definition, when CTA signed the contract with USAT to be sanctioned, they agreed to follow all the rules, and have plans in place to implement any of them if needed. This would be how to track folks wearing wetsuits when the water was 78-84 and could not get awards. I continue to be shocked to hear the NOAA's website had the water temp which showed it would probably be over 78. And folks are letting the RD off by when he stated on Sat, from what folks posted, that the swim would be a wetsuit swim. Some seem to suggest the RD might have been going to announce a 77.9 degree water temp until the USAT official did their job. And folks can defend this race. Oh well, sure would be interesting to see what WTC thinks about this since one of their events did not follow their rules. I guess that is okay, but if any of us athletes break the rules, we get nailed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

But you don't think that there should be any consequences for CTA failing to follow the rules?


Make it a rule and I won't. Or at least I'll pick races with colder or easier swims, or choose to do Eagleman when conditions might be better (meaning less current, although NOAA's predictions were for near slack water this year: http://tidesandcurrents.noaa.gov/...ts10/tab2ac5.html#57).


The cutoff is 1:10 from the start of your wave. I think the people who were "allowed" to do the run simply ignored the DQ notice or were so focused or dazed that they did not see the notice.

 



The cutoff is 1:10 from the start of your wave. I think the people who were "allowed" to do the run simply ignored the DQ notice or were so focused or dazed that they did not see the notice.[/reply]
Man, we learned the hard way at Worlds that basically ignore the officials, keep your chip, and keep going. If my wife and daughter had done this, which I believe is "against" the rules, they would have finished their race and gotten a full time. But instead, they listened to the marshalls, gave their chips when they stopped the race illegally, and where told after from USAT, they should have kept going and not given them their chip. So, never ever listen to the race folks. Finish the race, and then deal with what happens after the fact. If you do not finish, there is nothing you can do about a time. But if you do finish, there is a good chance your time will stand. Pretty sad, but when races mess up, usually the athletes are the ones to get screwed.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

By definition, when CTA signed the contract with USAT to be sanctioned, they agreed to follow all the rules, and have plans in place to implement any of them if needed. This would be how to track folks wearing wetsuits when the water was 78-84 and could not get awards. I continue to be shocked to hear the NOAA's website had the water temp which showed it would probably be over 78. And folks are letting the RD off by when he stated on Sat, from what folks posted, that the swim would be a wetsuit swim. Clearly, the RD was going to announce a 77.9 degree water temp until the USAT official did their job. And folks can defend this race. Oh well, sure would be interesting to see what WTC thinks about this since one of their events did not follow their rules. I guess that is okay, but if any of us athletes break the rules, we get nailed.

Dave, in the statement highlighted above, you appear to be insinuating that the RD intended to dishonestly represent the water temps, but was thwarted by an honest USAT official who did not allow that to happen. Is that your assertion?

I have no idea what anyone was doing. I facts are the NOAA info any could see. The RD stated on Sat is would be a wetsuit swim. Folks ask how overnight the water temp could go up 2 degrees. No idea.

I do not first hand an RD who wrote me that even though I measure water at 82, his race would NEVER have a water temp over 77.9 So yes, I have seen first hand what some RD's do to avoid having to deal with the USAT rules they signed up for.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Back to the question Dave, are you asserting that the RD for Eagleman 2010 intended to dishonestly represent the water temps, but was thwarted by an honest USAT official who did not allow that to happen? Maybe a Yes/No with explanation following (if needed) would bring clarity to your position.

I have no idea who did what since I was not in their shoes, or there, so if I only get a yes/no answer, it could have to be no. I really could care less, what I care about is the rules were not followed which means the race had a process ready and used on race day for wetsuits to be used in water between 78-84

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I was wrong here: there were apparently signs in the trees directing us back to the parking lot, and the shuttles were running if you knew where to get them -- your driver on the way in was supposed to point out the pickup location.

Amazing Dave, really amazing. The phrase is "I couldn't care less", though your unintended butchering of the phrase renders it the most sensible thing you have written in your post. Yes, you COULD care less, and probably should.

I don't mean to be rude, I am not a good swimmer myself and am very thankful when a race allows for a wetsuit swim. However by definition a wetsuit is "A tight-fitting permeable suit worn in cold water, as by skin divers, to retain body heat"

It is not a swim aid. I understand your argument that the USAT rules state that a wetsuit maybe be worn between temps of 78 - 84 and you are upset that the RD didn't seem to have a plan in place for those temps and that option. I think the RD was correct not to allow wetsuits at all. Anyone who wore a wetsuit for that swim would have exited the swim dehydrated and with core temps much too high to continue in a race where effective temps topped 100 degrees.

If you were DQ'd because your swim was too slow then I would suggest spending some time working on your swim instead of posting complaints on slowtwitch.

It is triathlon and that implies an ability to meet cutoffs in three events without any assistance. If you were a weak cyclist and it was a windy day would you suggest allowances should be made or the cutoff extended for that circumstance?

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Nor do I use punctuation in the way a child sprinkles glitter over a ribbon of glue on construction paper - Trash Talk

And of course NOAA follows USAT guidelines for measuring the water temperature. You know, more than 6" and less than 24" below the surface, at the appropriate distance from the shore, and on the course.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I am sure the guy is a good dude.

But technically, the link on his website is from 2009. The rules have been changed since then. This was a USAT sanctioned race and should have been operated under 2010 USAT rules. From the current USAT website:
http://www.usatriathlon.org/...l-sanction-questions

"What are the temperature guidelines for wearing a wetsuit during a sanctioned race?
Wet suits may legally be worn when water temperature is at or below 78 degrees Fahrenheit. Participants are allowed to wear wet suits when the water temperature is 78-84 degrees but are not eligible for prizes, awards, or age group placement. Wet suites are not permitted for temperatures above 84 degrees Fahrenheit."

I personally don't care. But if everyone takes a step back and looks at the facts. The RD should have updated his website and should have been prepared for this situation.

Having an out of date website doesn't make the RD right.

From Section 4.4 -

age group participants may wear a wetsuit at their own discretion, provided however that participants who wear a wet suit within this temperature range

shall not be eligible for prizes or awards.

My interpretation of this sentence is that if the RD does not have in place a provision that excludes wetsuit participants from awards, i.e., no system for tracking those who wear wetsuits; then it is no longer the athlete's choice whether or not to wear a wetsuit.

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Nor do I use punctuation in the way a child sprinkles glitter over a ribbon of glue on construction paper - Trash Talk

So you say the RD is correct in not following the rules he posted? Post a no-wetsuits-over-78 rule and people like me won't register. Post a wetsuits-OK-but-no-awards-between-78-and-84 rule and we will be upset at the waste of $255+ when the rule is changed at the last minute. The issue here is not whether wetsuits should be allowed or not or whether weak swimmers should be allowed or not, it is about sticking to what you told people to expect.

If the wetsuit option had been allowed, I'm sure that most people would have elected to not wear one. I would have worn one, and I wouldn't have overheated. As I mentioned before, I've done longer swims in warmer water and felt fine. But that may just because my scrawny arms don't generate a lot of heat and my weak kick means my legs don't get a chance to.

Let me turn this around on the weak cyclists. Suppose there's a nice flat route that crosses one major ridge four times on an semi-circular out-and-back course. There are three roads across the ridge: roads A and B cross at very low passes (say 250' elevation gain); road C crosses right over the ridgeline with a 2500' elevation gain each way. Road A is the planned route for the course, but there's road construction on it. The RD thinks that the construction will be over and up to race day tells everyone that, even though there's good evidence that it might not be. One hour before the race the RD announces a course change -- onto road C, even though with minimal planning road B could have been used instead. Dozens of people are DQed or DNFed because they were not prepared for the climbs. Many others are unhappy because they brought their tri bikes when they'd have brought their road bikes if they knew there might be a lot of climbing. Do you think they would have the right to be upset or would you just say "learn to climb"?

My bike example isn't even as bad as the wetsuit situation because no new rules are being made up on the spot, but the rest of it is similar: the RD should have known there might be a change, he should have let everyone know there might have been a change, and he should have been prepared to keep the impact on participants minimal in the event of a change.

Here's the simple, on-the-spot solution for Eagleman: have everyone w/o wetsuits enter the water 6 min before their swim wave goes off. Pause, note the time, run a dummy chip across the timing mat, or something. Then 3 min before the wave start have everyone in a wetsuit go over the mat. Post-processing the data in Excel would take 10 minutes, tops.

I would not take the NOAA's data as evidence that it should have been a wetsuit swim. But it should be clear from that data that water temps between 78 and 84 were rather likely. It is interesting that the temperature at the buoy was actually lower Sunday at race time than it was at the same time on Saturday. It is also interesting that the temperature shot up well over 2 degrees F by the same time on Monday.