You have a point and I do agree with the information you have presented. I have seen this myself so I have a feel for what you are describing.

I own a bike shop, a tri specific bike shop, so I will keep my bike shop owner's hat on for a moment while I present the utterly opposite perspective- please read before you get mad at me, then get mad at me.

I'll preface my statement by saying that there are some tri clubs, most probably, that are very good.

But...

Some clubs- not all but a few- create substantial problems for retailers akin to organized crime, racketeering and run a "protection" scam. Here is how, and this is a real example:

Each year we used to get a letter from a local "Touring Society" club that solicited discounts for their club members. Fair enough. The club is large and their members are avid cyclists. Good customers. Here is where this goes south, and where they got themselves in trouble and I phoned the FBI.

The letter inferred, quite heavily, that if dealers did not sponsor their club they would not endorse the shop and in fact advise members to shop elsewhere, Oops. That is organized crime.

I phoned two friends at the FBI who work organized crime and are good buddies. They stopped by the store and I gave them the letter. I asked them to make a "courtesy call" to inform the authors of this letter that this was intimidation at best, extortion at worst.

The letters stopped.

Also, clubs have a habit of taking shops for all they are worth, abusing them financially and promotionally, and leaving them in the dust. They are willing to take the discounts but when it comes time to teach newbies a transition class, volunteer at the local race for clean-up or help with training rides, they are no where to be found.

When a club fosters education in the sport, helps new athletes, is a resource for information about local rides and an advocate for the sport: Hats off to them we will and do gladly help.

When they threaten us and shake us down for protection money and then bounce us checks, don't pay us the money they owe us and our employees (when they went through our "back door" to get stuff from our employees on the cheap)- I call foul. In one case I had "buy the debt" a club owed employees of ours, pay the employees myself, and then act as the collection agent for our employees to get paid by the club.

So, two sides to every coin.

For the purposes of the circumstance you outline in your post, I see your point and agree with you.

The view I am presenting is a deifferent perspective but related to the club theme from the retailers view.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Oh, I should add: One of the most notorious "clubs" we dealt with had a membership whose income was so far above what any of us make it seemed inappropriate and in poor taste to roll in here and shake some kid down for 15% off a 2.99 patch kit when the kid made $12 an hour and the guy doing the panhandling made well above six figures.

That's just lame. Especially when its the same guys who participate in the events we pay for the production of so they can continue- and they can race.

One thing I don't think some people realize when they ask a small retailer, "Can you give me a discount on this item?" is what they are really asking is: "Are you willing to accept a lower standard of living so that I may profit from it?"

Sometimes the answer to that questions is: "Why Yes Ma'am/Sir, it is our pleasure to be of service."

Other times it is rude, presumptuous and in poor taste to ask.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I'm confident that the type of situation you describe happens across the country, though I don't think that's the case with our club.

I was looking at it from a sales perspective and seeing a huge missed opportunity for the various shops that frequent the meetings.

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Father Kevin

http://www.churchofcycling.org

Actually I apologize. I totally hijacked your original topic with a rant. I'm sorry Sir., I do apologize.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Fantastic response Tom. Great explanation. Thanks for taking the time.
But yeah, some business owners in general just don't get it. They are usually weeded out.

Eh, I always like intrigue.

And please, enough with the "sir". You can just call me "Rat".

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Father Kevin

http://www.churchofcycling.org

I had frequented both stores in the past. Nytro is great in my opinion. Hi-Tech is good too. My club is sponsored by Hi-Tech and TimeTrial.org by Nytro.

It's Christmas time, these guys are beat, selling lots of bikes/gear.

Do these guys race, are they triathletes? If not, then they may just be there to work. Maybe they are coming off a 10 hour shift.

I am not defending them, just trying to understand your case.

On the other hand, have you been to Trek SD in Kearney Mesa, do you get that attitude there? Probably not.

Different stores, different attitudes.

These are the same guys that I've seen at the meetings for the last 6 months and I've dealt with them at the stores.

As for Trek in KM, I bought my P3 from them last month because they took so much time with me, spent almost an hour to fit me for a test ride, answered all my questions and gave me a great price.

Their service was fantastic.

After the great test ride at Trek, I went to Nytro and said, "I just rode a P3 at another store, can you show me what you have in that same price range/performance range that I might like?" and what did the guy show me? A P3SL.

I'll tell you that if I knew that I had a room of 150 motivated, dedicated people that were interested in my "wares", I'd make a better effort.

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______________________________________________
Father Kevin

http://www.churchofcycling.org

Tom, maybe the answer here is to have a written agreement about what both sides agree to do, you agree to x% discount etc and they agree to find 5 people to help in clean up for 3 specified races or to help volunteer races. If they really want a relationship with your store then they will agree to it and if not then all they wanted was to take some $ out of your pocket. Does any club really drive enough business to you to make those discounts worthwhile? I understand sponsoring events because you get in front of so many people, but people are always looking for the cheapest deal it seems so I wonder how much you benefit in short or long term?

I think it is fair to reward loyal customers but not so sure they are loyal but rather price shopping. Just a thought

Another possibility here is that the bike shop hires primarily (1) people that are good at fixing bikes and (2) whoever will work for whatever they can pay. As a result, they might end up with no one that is also a great salesman.

I was at the club meeting also last night and know where you are coming from. I've always been kind of "wowed" (not sure if that's the right word) by the way the shop owners give their presentations. I too agree that this should be a great way for them to build their business but they seem to miss the boat.

When the guy from Nytro (Jim I think) get's up in front of the crowd and reads his "specials" off the flyer, it'd kind of depressing. At lest the Massage Therapist trying to drum up business had a science experiment. I give her and "A" on effort! I do realize not everyone is comfortable in front of a group (and this doesn't apply to shop owners - some of the guest speakers (ie pros) aren't very good speakers either), but there needs to be more enthusiasm. I think Nytro should send over Mike Drury or Sonja to do the presentation. I think it would give them more credibility. I know I'm going to shop at Nytro more because of their presence. I asked the Nytro guy were Drury was and he said "at the store"...duh...

And it doesn't always have to be about discounts!

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TheBikeRacer.com

Hmmm. I would figure 'ol Craig would be at the meeting himself.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I've noticed this about shop owners for ANY hobby. The owners/employees tend to be more interested in the hobby itself than in the business of selling the hobby. The result is usually some form of "I would rather be doing [whatever] than standing here talking to you."

But the behavior that really irks me is the "I'm doing you a favor" attitude. If a shop wants more than I'm willing to pay (either because I can get the same product cheaper elsewhere, or I simply don't want to pay what they have listed), I usually haggle a bit. I've had more than a few shop owners act like I'm trying to steal from them when I ask them to price match or discount. I think of it as the free market, where "no deal" is a perfectly acceptable outcome. If your supply curve doesn't meet my demand curve... fine. But don't act like you are doing me a favor by making a profit off me. I'm doing YOU a favor by giving my $ to you instead of your competitor. As the old saw goes: $ talks, B.S. walks.

-Mark Rebuck, http://www.markrebuck.com/

Although you are not, let's pretend you, Tom, are my LBS.

I want a widget.

I can buy it at your shop for let just say $10.

I can also buy it from a pre-race Expo from you for $8. I don't know if you do, but pretend you participate in these where you give discounts)

I can buy it off the Internet from a non-brick and morter outlet for $7.

If I am going to need either up front or constant service / setup on this widget, I buy it from you. If I just snap it on and go, I will probably buy it off the net.

My quandry: I would rather (honestly) give you my business and my money because I want you to remain in business because A) you are a nice guy and B) it is convenient to have a LBS. But, let's be realistic, shouldn't I ask for a discount because I can buy this no-service / setup widget for less elsewhere... even less from you at expos? Would you rather have the business at a discount or lose it completely?

Before you explode, don't. I only ask for tri discounts from my lbs to which I am very loyal to. I have dropped 3k for my last bike there and he does all my service.

That was quite a rant, Tom.

Let me see if I got this right: a local club wants "sponsorship" (whatever that means--I assume a discount for its members) and if you don't comply, they tell their people to shop elsewhere. That sounds like an attempt at a group boycott (which is generally an antitrust violation). That might be criminal, depending on the circumstances, and it might not. But it doesn't sound like organized crime in the sense you're using it. It's not as if they threatened you physically or threatened damage to your business.

So then you call up your "buddies" at the FBI, and they pay the senders of the letter a visit. I hope you haven't given your FBI "buddies" any gifts anytime lately or socialized with them too much. The FBI has very strict procedures and protocols about opening criminal investigations, and their agents don't pay "visits" to people on behalf of their "buddies." Seems like you're using your "buddies" in law enforcement to get something that you'd likely never get otherwise.

Tom, I don't know you personally, and I'm not accusing you of anything. But be careful before accusing someone of organized crime. Your actions could be interpreted by them the same way.

Hello, I'm not Tom but let me play him for a minute (boy that sounds odd!).

We as consumers have the right to buy our goods as cheaply as possible. I have no problem with e-commerce or asking Tom for a discount. If bringing in a hot chick to ask for a discount will work I have no problem with that either. I do think its unethical to try on clothes or test ride bikes with the idea of buying off the web. And as Tom said its not only unethical, but illegal to extort business. (I'm willing to bet i know what club Tom is referring to, frankly I would love to see most sponsers give money to clubs only with strong junior programs and only to races/events that have significant price breaks for juniors)

For a shop to survive they have to provide a service. Immediacy, the ability to try something on, expert advice, repair, etc. Thats where a shop will survive. If a shop expects to survive based on good will, well lots of luck but i doubt you will get many bank loans when your business plan is "I'm starting a small business in a very competitive market and I expect people to buy from me at higher prices because the like me".

For some reason people like to make a distinction between the local store (LBS) and e-tailers.

To me they are one in the same. What is to keep an LBS from becoming an e-tailer? Sure, it takes some work, but it is worth it.

So far today we have sold things all over the US: Wheels, shoes, transition bags- we've sold a half dozen transition bags today.

When LBS's cry about e-tailing and on-line sales I say, "If you can't beat 'em, join em."

On the Internet everybody is the same size: 600X800.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I hope you have a happy, healthy, safe and profitable holiday season and new year!

Cheers!

That's his name. Craig was at the meeting.

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TheBikeRacer.com

Hey Dopey, I like you. You call it like you see it and aren't afraid to buck one of ST's "big boys." Maybe when the FBI is done looking into Tom's terrorist threat they can investigate how he's singlehandedly hijacked the ST forum for blatant self-promotion.

Thanks, Guy. I do tend to call things the way I see them. And no, I'm not afraid of the ST frequent-posters (why should we grant them the moniker of "big boys"? Aren't they really just frequent posters?). What's he going to do, complain to Slowman and get me "banned for life?"

As I said before, I have nothing against Tom. I accuse him of absolutely nothing. In fact, I believe he cannot be doing anything untoward. After all, anyone who has any criminal intent would never say in public (in writing, on the internet, no less) that he uses his "buddies" at the FBI to obtain favors. Organized crime is more subtle and sophisticated than that. (And yes, I know what I'm talking about--I'm an attorney who defends white collar criminal cases.)

Suppose that it's true that he has "buddies" at the FBI and he used those contacts to get a special investigatory favor, and the biking club or whatever reads his post. They could complain to the FBI's equivalent of an internal affairs division. I think it's unlikely that his "buddies" would be disciplined internally for something like this, but they could be investigated.

Dopey, I agree. I put "big boys" in quotes because I was being somewhat sarcastic. I agree something like "enormously frequent posters" would be more appropriate. People who claim to have "buddies" in positions of governmental authority (especially law enforcement) and who also claim their "buddies" do them personal favors under the color of their governmental authority make me very nervous. If what he says is true, i.e. he sent his FBI buddies to some poor guy's house to intimidate him, IMO it would deserve an investigation. If there truly was a potential violation of the law he should have reported it to the proper authorities just like anyone else.

Guy,

I think you and I will soon be "banned for life." And given that we have single-handedly taken on Michigan organized crime, those lives might not last too much longer, if you get my drift.

You mentioned in your prior post about Demerly's use of this forum for self-promotion. He is very knowledgeable, and many of his posts are entirely appropriate, but I do agree that a lot of his posts should be moved to the classifieds forum. The recent thread about the Hed S Bar extensions is a perfect example.

Dopey,

As I've already said, I agree with everything you've said in this post and others. However, ever since I did my first post about this I've been very concerned that someone from the FBI is going to pay me a little visit. Maybe I'll leave town for a couple weeks until things cool down. Keep your head low, buddy!

I have a petition for YOU dopey, you already made a thread about how you think Tom shouldn't promote himself on here, how about you keep all the posts regarding your feelings on that subject on that thread! Stop trying to hijack other threads to get your point across, I do enjoy watching you talk to yourself using two screen names though.

I thought that was cool too... :)

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I hate when people don't have a profile filled out...

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What the mind can conceive and believe, the body will achieve.

Dopey, I agree. I put "big boys" in quotes because I was being somewhat sarcastic. I agree something like "enormously frequent posters" would be more appropriate. People who claim to have "buddies" in positions of governmental authority (especially law enforcement) and who also claim their "buddies" do them personal favors under the color of their governmental authority make me very nervous. If what he says is true, i.e. he sent his FBI buddies to some poor guy's house to intimidate him, IMO it would deserve an investigation. If there truly was a potential violation of the law he should have reported it to the proper authorities just like anyone else.

"big boys" - let us all hope that was sarcasm, jesus christ! too funny - just what the f*ck are you giving them credit for?

i use that term for the 15 minute 5k crowd - not the dude who is writing 50 posts on day on the internet to line his wallet.

i like dopey's style. direct and pulling no punches. tristan

Hey, no fair, you haven't filled out your user profile! You're Dopey, aren't you???? (Just kidding.) Yes, indeed, "Big boys" was sarcasm.

No, Mike, it was "Dave, from Nytro. I'm going to read the same specials we've had for the last 3 months. Let me put this flyer in front of my face, because I can't remember that tri-club members get 25% off on all X-Lab wheels and that there's a great $999 tri starter kit."

Christ, I think I could give that presentation from memory.

BTW, congrats on your award. I don't remember specifically what it was for, but congrats none the less.

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Father Kevin

http://www.churchofcycling.org

my tri club is really lucky to have a great bike shop that really gets it. They are incredibly helpful, offer great discounts, and understand our limited budget as college students. We previously had a rather lackluster sponsorship with a different shop, and am really glad we went with the new place. Aside from helping our team with discounts, they've given us free clinics on bike repairs, and sometimes send employees out on our big beginner group rides to act as a sag wagon of sorts, helping with flats, giving riding tips etc.. I'm sure they'll be glad when team members graduate and continue shopping there, its probably at that point which the deal will really pay off for them.

stop hijacking threads...it's slightly annoying.

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

Thanks.

As for the Dave/Craig thing...maybe I shouldn't have been yakking it up with Pooks in the back when Jim announced his name ;)

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TheBikeRacer.com

Goose--

I started the other thread after I posted to this thread, so I'm not hijacking here. I started the other thread because I felt it doesn't belong here. No hijacking.

And, in posting here, I was only responding to something Tom said, and then to others. Again, no hijacking.

I do not have two screen names, just one, and I am not talking to myself in this, or any other forum.

You're a lot like many of the others in the other thread. You have trouble arguing that what I've said is true, but you don't like the message. So you shoot the messenger.

Goose, don't hijack this thread.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I accuse him of absolutely nothing. In fact, I believe he cannot be doing anything untoward. After all, anyone who has any criminal intent would never say in public (in writing, on the internet, no less) that he uses his "buddies" at the FBI to obtain favors. Organized crime is more subtle and sophisticated than that. (And yes, I know what I'm talking about--I'm an attorney who defends white collar criminal cases. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You and your friend Guy should not be talking about organised crime and using insinuation in your posts.

Tom wrote "The letter inferred, quite heavily, that if dealers did not sponsor their club they would not endorse the shop and in fact advise members to shop elsewhere, Oops. That is organized crime"____________________________________________________________________ I would think, a reply along the lines of , We are fairly priced, if you clubs purchase volume deserves a discount is still under consideration, Sounds more like business ,then organized crime, not worth a call from the G-men.

Nytro is a wondrefull shop , but they are high end . Years ago I started going there , in 45 minutes a sales man sold 3 bikes over the phone ,with the last line of one conversation sounded like this " second day air ,with 2 sets of wheels $3945.99 ,thanks " . They have helped me many times . They had a great" take off rack " seats ,bars , stems, that someone rode for a 30 miles an didn't like the fit. Now its on sale at 80% off.

Hi-tech is great as well , Their yearly swap meet / sale ,, I still dream about .

The worst are the lower end (bottom feeder) shops, That aren't old family shops. These have a turn over in mechs & sales personel,which seems weekly. One manager / head mech. knows everything, normally stands ,rattling off, that wont fit this wheel because, X YZ ,,

The rest of the shop are homeless people in clean close or someone fresh out of drug rehab. They get into the "home-depot-osis" ,you find your stuff in 5 minutes ,go to to the register but nobody is there, 6 people in line , your hear 6 guys in back " so dude are we gettin Mexican food for lunch ,I only got 3 bucks .

This is where I slap the 20 wheels hanging from the ceiling to get a wind chime noise going , Now They come out ,pissed of that somebody is buying things, The bar code isnt the sale price , someone has to show him ,,,,You know the rest.



God I love to buy local ( local dollars ) ,,,,,,,,but give me online 70% of the time.

"I phoned two friends at the FBI who work organized crime and are good buddies. They stopped by the store and I gave them the letter. I asked them to make a "courtesy call" to inform the authors of this letter that this was intimidation at best, extortion at worst."

Tom,

Amazing! You've got a couple FBI buddies that you can call to handle your business irritations. Why don't you post their names so the rest of us have a couple buddies we can call if things don't go our way. After all, we pay their salaries don't we?

This stinks to high heaven.

First: There's a domestic war against terrorism going on. The Feds should be expending resources there rather than on your petty problems. (Sorry, but in the big scheme of things, its petty!)

Second: The FBI should make enforcement choices based on cost-benefit, rather than on who has friends in the Bureau. I know thats idealistic on the macro scale since those choices are sometimes based on the politics of funding. But your "buddies" boss ought to have his tit in a vise if he approved their visit on your bidding. Did he? Your use of your "buddies" is as unethical as the local club's attempted extortion is illegal.

Third: Try to handle your petty business problems yourself. If you really can't, have your lawyer fire off a letter outlining your position and plan of attack if the offending party persists. I'll bet that would end it. If you really need intervention, call the local cops. They will probably tell you that they dont have the resources. If you really think that the friggin FBI ought to get involved, call the switchboard and see if they will act. I sure hope that they will also tell you that they don't have the resources. If you really think that you will prevail, sue the bast@rds. It might cost you a bit, but it saves the rest of us a bundle.

God, I hate paying taxes when I hear this kind of stuff!!

Trader