what if they draft during the penalty lap? ;)

It's a good idea, much better than the country-club sin-bin!

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Just to clarify, the extra 2 mile penalty loop is RUNNING (thus the 12-14 min addion to the time). In the current country club sin bin, all they are missing is a quick 3 min massage !

I wasn't paying close attention...that was two miles running? That's cruel.



Sounds perfect to me!





;)

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Well maybe for the pros, IF there is very good and fair enforcement of the rule. (As Francois has told about Olaf at IMH, even pros are subject to bad calls on penalties.) For AGs, I guess I'm opposed because that would be a very harsh penalty IF you are victim of a bad call. Unless you have very good and fair enforcement, AGs are going to be very angry if they are unfairly penalized and receive such harsh punishment. I don't think that the quality of enforcement is sufficient to allow more serious penalties for AGs. There is too much subjective judgment involved.

Have you ever received a bad call? I'm sure you have done many more events than I. But I've done a fair number of tri's over the last 15 years (I'd guess 30-40). This year, I had a bad year with many injuries, but managed to go to the Great Floridian Half after about 2 months of decent training. It was a hard race, I was slow, but I was reasonably satisfied that my year ended on a up note. Then I see I had a 4 minute penalty. I never had one before and have always been careful to follow the rules. They never posted the basis for the penalties and it leaves me with a bitter feeling. However, I can swallow what I believe is a 4 minute officiating mistake. If I had been told to run 2 penalty miles before starting the run course, I probably would have been so angry I would have said screw you and picked up my stuff and gone home.

So I guess I'm not a fan of penalties right now. But that will probably change next time I get passed by a drafting pack.

HH

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

2 years for EPO first offence is to much. They should check them more often for a year or two. Probation of some kind. Send them to a shrink for mental mastrabation. The drug is just the tip of the iceberg . Help them out in some way.

You make a good point about applying this to pros. Maybe apply it to all the elites, pro or not. Maybe apply it to anyone in line to get an award in their category...sort of like the wetsuit thing...if the water is above 78 degrees but below 82, you can wear a wetsuit, but you are ineligible for any awards in your category.

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Quid quid latine dictum sit altum videtur
(That which is said in Latin sounds profound)

Biathlon has a system like this in place if you miss a shot. I don't think an extra 2 mile run would fly, but I think an extra 5k on the bike would be a fair penalty. Thats about 8-9 minutes of extra riding.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

So much for the "26,2 miles" of running...

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http://twitter.com/krepster || http://www.pedro-gomes.com || follow all the action on facebook

But PED use has more far reaching consequences than does drafting. It enhances your training, and all 3 legs of the race.

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A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is just putting on its shoes.
- Mark Twain

Slightly OT, but you might be interested in taking a look at these ideas by a coach I know on how to make drafting tri more exciting/even using (for instance) run shortcuts for people who win primes on the bike or run:

http://www.perfectcondition.ltd.uk/...riathlon%20might.htm

This might be hard to do.

At IMFL I was able to chat with Charlie Crawford after the race. He recognized that the officials only see a snapshot of a racers day and therefore miss many infractions or happen to catch people at their one bad moment in 5 or 6 hours. He also said that the officials threw out 100 penalties (leaving something like 250+) because they may have been too subjective. Example of thrown out penalties included the motorcycle being behind and not beside the infraction for the entire time duration and bikes within 3 bike lengths (i.e. 2 was penalized; 3 was considered OK since the marshall my be estimating the distance incorrectly). Charlie also mentioned he worked hard to throw out penalties that would have resulted in a DQ despite some people being "bad boys" (Charlie's words)out on the course.

So while I like the idea of a non-resting penalty, it would be difficult to implement in light of officials themselves recognizing a need re-evaluate infractions after the race.

the problem is the creators of the problem offer no solution. I'm leaving individuals out of this on purpose but getting to the root cause. ITU couldn't stop drafting so they went to draft legal. WTC has too many people on too small of a course. Drafting will be as much of an IM as the S,B or R. Until WTC has the cajones to do something like limiting numbers or completely closing the roads IM's will have drafting. Safety is another issue. IMAZ w/ a double out n back will be interesting.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Dev, is this your plan for the Ottawa IM?

Your suggested penalty might be a little severe, but the drafting at last year's 1/2 was quite blatant. Hope it's better controlled next year since you're going to a full IM distance.

Great White North Triathlon in Edmonton, AB this year had something like that. They decided that even a few drafters is too many, so they decided to get rid of the sin bin for a sin-track. You had to run 800m on the track instead of sitting out for the 3 minutes or whatever. 800m is pretty significant, and would take most 3-4 minutes. That, and the race is only a 1/2 IM, so it was a pretty cool rule.

I think there were maybe 5 drafting calls on the whole day, not too bad for 800 riders.

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

I was at the GWN tri and then Charlie Cooper decided to do the same thing at his triathlon, the Prestige Cranbrook Half Ironman... it is a GREAT idea. They make big anouncements pre-race to all the spectators to come and 'boo' the drafters on the track.... what an AWESOME idea. I tell you, I sure as hell made sure I was doubly legal all damn day.....perfect. There were NO drafters in Cranbrook despite there being lots of motorcycles around all day.


Trev

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Trev Williams
http://www.thedoctrine.ca

PENALtY LOOP.. Thats just mean! your spending way to much time thinking this stuff up.



Paul

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Imagination is more important than knowledge. Albert Einstein

I was thinking for the pros. Perhaps 1 mile for age groupers at the full Ironman and 800 m at half ironman like they did at the Great White North Tri.

Trust me, if the rule is there, you will see much cleaner riding amongst the pros and age groupers. To Cerveloguy, no, this is not the penalty format we plan for the Ottawa Ironman and Half Ironman next year. Being a competitor in the half Ironman and being out there on my own for much of the race in the top 10-20, it was frustrating seeing huge packs of people coming from behind, but realistically, they were mainly caused by the tri a tri sprint and half Ironman being on the course at the same time. We are making recommendations to the RD to space the events out a bit more next year and personally, I will be asking that the try a tri be removed from the Ironman weekend, although it may be too late.

dev

Dev, I'm sure you know this, but right now the Try a Tri is part of the weekend, beginning 1:50 after the Iron-distance. The overall spacing, though, is pretty good - iron tri at 6:30, iron du at 7:15, try a tri at 8:20, half-iron events at 8:30, sprint at 9:30. As you found last year, and as I remember from the first two years of the 1/2, it will get very crowded out there on the bike! As I view the day for the people doing the full iron, it will resemble a bell-shaped curve in terms of participants on-course.

The more I think of it, this is probably the one I will do for my full next year. The price is right, the proximity is great (30 min.), and I want to support this race and see it grow. I am pleased to read that Terry and Cristine are open to the idea of extending the bike and run courses to reduce the number of loops on each, and I accept that the decision will come down to the number of entrants.....and with that in mind I'm not really optimistic. What's your guess on how many might enter the full iron? They do a good job with their races, though, and even for the repetitiveness of the likely course, at least it's a beautiful venue. I did LP this year and had fun with the bells and whistles and hoopla, but I'm more and more liking the idea of a smaller, independent iron-distance for next year. Have you heard anything further about the possibility of one down around Sandbanks?

Finally, as for drafting penalties, next year Great White North is having an extra 800 meter "Lap of Shame" to be run before heading out on the actual run course, in addition to a stop-and-go penalty. I think this will prove to be a very effective deterent. By the way, GWN is already filled, actually with 100 people over the limit. So much for my road-trip to Alberta next July!

so does drafting...the principle remains the same, you cheat and you go faster.

I prefer someone who dopes. it's not something that bothers me in a race because I don't see it. when someone drafts, the person is cheating and it pisses me off, because it bugs the hell out of me to have some moron sitting on my wheel....

at the end, you draft (or you cut the course) and you can gain as much time as you would from taking PEDs.

Francois, do as I do with drafters on my wheel, pee on them! It definitley makes them go away :)

EPO should at least be two years.

Steroids should be a lifetime ban! Especially in other sports than triathlon, with that shit you can achieve results/muscles/levels that you never could have achieve without it. Levels that you can maintain and therefore should have alifetime ban!

Dave

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http://www.nasvik.se

At Powerman Zofingen drafters had to run about 1km in the stadium (around transition area). That was a great idea. Everyone in the stadium could see run the drafters 2 loops in the stadium (or 4 for 2 drafting penalties). And the could not rest :)

In Switzerland race organizers can choose if they want a penalty box or a 'penalty loop'. I wish more races would choose a 'penalty loop'.

Felix

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http://www.weilenmann.ch.vu

Dev,

This is an excellent idea, that I have often mentioned, that I think should be implemented, or at least given some discussion.

Fleck

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Now, we have to come up with a name for the "penalty loop"

Lap of Losers, The Sin Circle, Wheel of Misfortune, Circle of Cheats, etc.

Love the idea. Cheating is simply the worst thing you can do in sports. Bd calls? Don't give them an opportunity to make a bad call [It's the human element. Mistakes will happen. Everyone accepts this.].

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EPO should at least be two years.

Someone willingly takes a drug that will improve performance when they know it's illegal in their sport. People want sympathy or lesser penalties for these folks? why? Is there anything worse in sports than a cheat?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

I vote for lap of shame. It should be like ancient Rome, where the crowds throw things at the participants as they are chased by a hungry lion...

Seriously though, I am sure this will clean things up in a hurry even at Ironman NA races. Do you think ANY age grouper in his right mind will ride on the "edge" of being legal with the threat of running an extra mile or two on top of a marathon ? NO f***ing way. Everyone will ride clean even when it is congested. I would drop back and lose a couple of minutes over the course of the bike when being passed then having to come into T2 and run a couple of laps of the Lake Placid Olympic Oval and further fry my legs for the run !

I might push the RD at the Ottawa Ironman to try it, but we'll also need the cooperation of the OAT/Triathlon Canada officials and we'll also have to ensure that the Ironman and Half Ironman folks get to ride a very clean race and not be inhibited by positonal violations of sprint racers.

Longspur, if you recall, the half ironman was a very clean race until the sprint and try a tri participants appeared on course and started riding 4 abreast at 25 Kph while many half Ironman folks were trying to ride in the 30-45 kph range (depending on wind direction). This was the real cause of the congestion.

I did the first two legs of the 1/2 Iron Du this year, and think your idea is great - definetly like the lap of shame. However, I think for it to be successful there has to be more officiating. Several times I came upon groups of cyclists who were riding in a pack, several riders abreast. While sitting back trying to figure out how to pass (without crossing the yellow), an official on a motorcycle would whiz past, yet do nothing. We're not talking about a subtle violation here - there's a wall of cyclists caring on a conversation as they ride - pretty difficult to miss. If you aren't going to enforce the existing rules...

This is the problem when you have a try-a-tri race on the same course as a competitive race. Its hard to DQ try a tri participants for riding 2 breast (although I would argue that you should), but in any event, they impede the competitive race.

Perhaps I need to present the lap of shame penalty proposal to the OAT/Trican board next fall during the AGM or whenever they revise the rules.

Dev