freestyle and Brian286?

---

_______________________________________________

I went to the best school in the world for looking at a set of things and making an analysis.

I am very concerned. The downside to this has become so enormous that our exposure to risk is too great.

The last time there was this much sensationalized, circumstantial discussion about something it caused us to invade a country.

I really embrace the idea of the conquering hero. Those beautiful Nike commercials actually brought tears to my eyes- literally. It is all so fairy tale.

And that (among other reasons) is why I am concerned. I so hope I am just being a paranoid old fool. I am so hoping that. God, I hope that.......

---

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I don't like Lance...

Having met him, viewed his actions and rhetoric from afar over the last five years, and having talked to people who know him well, I can say without hesitation or remorse that I do not like him. I think he is great for cycling but I think he's an ass and if more people would get past the idol worship and listen to what he has to say and view his actions objectively, they would come to a similar conclusion.

Tom, you started using drugs?

---

_______________________________________________

what, you think we're going to invade France?

---

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Amen to that.

He was a pompous ass in high school. Today, I don't know. He survived cancer, and has made invaluable contributions to the sport of cycling and to his fellow human beings. No one is perfect, and if he's still an ass, who cares? There are an awful lot of asses in this world who haven't contributed nearly as much to their fellow human beings as has LA.

Whether he's an ass or not, I'm still pulling for him.

---

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

I think Lance is great. Now name a top athlete that is not an ass. Having played baseball at a pretty high level I can tell you that most baseball players be it rookie league college and all the way to the majors are for the most part ass. My cousin was/is a football coach in Boulder and on a number of occassions has told me about a certain former top US Marathoner who consistently complains loudly and is extremly rude to others that are on the track at the same time he has. With greatness comes arrogance.

---

All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

Tyler Hamilton, Eric Wholberg both very nice guys. Eric did a homestay with us several years ago and would be welcome back in the house any time.

"Now name a top athlete that is not an ass"

You've GOT to be kidding right?

You're justification for LA's arrogance speaks volumes...

I am not a Lance fan.

I don't know if I love him, but I have a deep and abiding respect for what he has achieved and the good he has done for many people in the world.

I look at it like this: He may be an asshole. I don't know, but if so, that's his personality. (I'm a bit of an asshole myself.) But you have to take everything into account when you measure the man. He does what he wants, the way he wants, and he steamrolls you when you get in his way. And he wins. Not just at cycling, but at other things as well. Further, he takes that winning ambition and uses it to raise millions for his cancer foundations. How many really nice cyclists do you know that do as much charitable fundraising as he does? That have their own Foundations?

The only thing that I fault him for is leaving his wife. I don't know all the circumstances, but based on how devastated she was by the breakup(read the latest Runner's World), I am not convinced that it was a mutual decision.

---

------------------------------------------------------------

Not a Lance fan, either. He ruined it when he dropped his wife and took up with the skank.

---

______________________________
Have you hugged Your Mom today?

I <3 Lance!

---

------------------------------------------------------------
"One thing I have found there are just two ways to go
It all comes down to livin' fast or dyin' slow"- Robert Earlk Keen Jr.

Current players only major sports (first two that come to mind per sport):

Tim Duncan
Steve Nash
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodrigez
Zindene Zidane
Terry Henry
Ernie Els
Phil Mickelson
Andre Agassi
Lindsey Davenport
Jarome Iglina
Joe Thorton
Mark Martin
Bill Elliot

That wasn't so hard was it?

I don't see any hero worship going on. I don't equate calling him the best bike racer to a hero. Praising him for being a great bike rider and competitor is not hero worship. It's merely acknowledgement of his ability.

I went to HS w/him, and yes, he was an ass. Guy never had one kind word to say to me even though we competed on the track team together. I was willing to accept that he had changed a bit after cancer survival, but judging from things I heard from people working for his foundation and others who had some contact w/him when I lived in Austin, he was still fundamentally the same guy.

Strangely, I've started to soften a little on my Lance stance this last year or so. I don't want to go into too much detail here, but I think we have had to deal with some similar issues in our lives, and it just appears to me that he has made some serious strides in the last couple of years which have nothing at all to do with cancer survival. Maybe that's why he's starting to grow on me a bit. I was hoping for someone new to win this year(I've been rooting for Jan, Mayo, Levi, and Roberto), but you've really got to appreciate what Lance has done. The guy's single-mindedness is amazing. He's got one goal - to win the Tour, and he does everything in his power to reach that goal. I think there are other guys who are probably as strong as he is, but Lance's overall preparation is 2nd to none. Off-season prep, team shaping, technological awareness, race strategy, timing his peak, natural talent, hard work - no one else appears to have the same package.

I am awed by Lance's accomplishments in the sport. He is a joy to watch.

I am a little put off by people who delve deeper than that, whether they're for him or against him. I don't know if he's an ass or not, and I don't care. I'm only interested in him as an athlete, and as far as that goes, he's great.

Why the need to demonize/canonize the man?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Just the nature of the beast. He's a famous athlete - it usually comes with the job.

"Now name a top athlete that is not an ass"



Jan Ullrich. You said name one, I could name many more.

---

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

Yeah, I was a year ahead of you guys, I guess. I didn't really know him... which isn't surprising, since I was a basketball player, not a runner, swimmer, cyclist or triathlete. My limited interaction with him led me to conclude he was yet another extremely talented athlete who thought that entitled him to be a prick.

I don't know Lance today, and I doubt he'd have any idea who I am. I'm in awe of his drive and his ability. However, he is not my hero or someone I want to be like in any sense... except that I wish I had 1/10 of his ability.

I suppose I've been pulling for him for the same reason I pulled for Jimmy King (of the Fab Four from University of Michigan) to make it in the NBA (which, of course, he hasn't). Hometown kid makes good.

---

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

Correction:

Lance is not the best bike racer. He's the best Tour de France rider right now but by far the best bike racer.

Just the nature of the beast. He's a famous athlete - it usually comes with the job.

Maybe. Do you think this happens more frequently and with greater intensity in participatory sports like cycling than in spectator sports like football, or auto racing?

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

That's an asinine statement. In order to be a top athlete you have to be an ass?

I think it happens when you author books about yourself and put yourself out there as a public figure. You are inviting a higher level of scrutiny. More apt in individual sports because you are clearly accountable for your performance.

you don't need to be an ass, but I think arrogance is a key part of becoming #1. As with many others here, I don't particularly want LA to win the TdF, (ie. love him) but I certainly respect his prowess. He deserves what he gets (winning) especially when you see him against the field.

I honestly can't judge people's characters that I've never met (Lance, Tyler, Jan) - the media obviously portrays them the way they want to. But I will say that some of the more gifted athletes that I have met over my -short- lifetime (olympics qualifiers, national champions) are also some of the nicest, quietest, reserved individuals I know. They have brought more to their sport in their communities, (ie. kids programs, coaching ) than anybody could have imagined.

Lance Rocks! Who cares about his personal life, I love the way he crushes his competition. I also like his crusade for cancer, helping others and fighting a cause.

I would assume that you need some confidence and cockiness to be such an intense competitor and believe that you can win. And who knows about his marriage, knowone really knows what happened, its all speculation, ive heard his ex aint no angel.

---

-----------------------:)
SUPPORT OPERATION REBOUND:
http://www.operationreboundcalifornia.kintera.org/ejs3

Kestrel Syndicate
Macca Fan Club

that IS a ridiculous statement.

I think in order to achieve greatness you have to have total confidence in yourself, which in turn can be sometimes seen as arrogance. Maybe it is arrogance, but it doesn't have to be, I think it's more likely to be cockiness. I have no issue with cockiness but I draw the line at arrogance. Arrogance to me means one feels superior to others. At the end of the day he's still a guy that rides a bike. However, I do give him a lot of credit for the work his foundation does for cancer victims.

Exceptional success in anything doesn't mean you have carte blance to be a dickhead or an ass. An ex-girlfriend of mine wisely said (while seeing someone berate a waitress), "the true measure of a person's character is how they treat people who can do absolutely nothing for them".

Your ex is truly a feminine version of Confucious. I find it funny that someone would say that regarding a waitress... in a restaurant... LOL...

---

-
"Yeah, no one likes a smartass, but we all like stars" - Thom Yorke


smartasscoach.tri-oeiras.com

You dated Ann Landers?

;)

---

_______________________________________________

Dude! that was hilarious. Thanks for that, I've been having a shit day at work and that made me laugh so hard I had to shut my door. No, she's definitely no Ann Landers. She's a hot one and a 3:10 marathoner. Too bad I found a way to F that one up, but I always do.

Ann Landers, damn, I'm still laughing.

Post: Not a Lance fan, either. He ruined it when he dropped his wife and took up with the skank.


Can you point in the direction of the source for this? Do you know for a fact Lance dropped Kristin? Maybe she wanted out. Maybe he suggested marriage counseling to see if they could make amends. Maybe she still said no way.

I've followed the last 5 years of Lance as closely as any cycling fan, but nowhere have I ever heard or read that Lance wanted out of his marriage.

For the record, I think Lance's racing is fun to watch, but I'd much rather see Tyler win the Tour. If forced to label myself a fan of someone in the TDF, it wouldn't be Lance.

---

----------------------------------
Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Looks like the marriage was all about Lance.....



As a five-time Tour de France winner, Lance Armstrong knows more than most people about the importance of hard work. In his book, Every Second Counts, Armstrong describes his regret that he did not put the same hard work into his marriage that he put into his bike racing.

Kristin Armstrong (February 2003): Marriage problems were "brought on gradually by a number of pressures, rather than one big blow-up. We've been together 4 1/2 years, and we've had six homes, three languages, three countries, one cancer comeback, three children, four Tour de France wins and one rise to celebrity. You're not supposed to cram such a huge amount of events into such a small period of time."

Lance Armstrong (September 2003): "The craziest thing is, we're closer now and better friends than ever before. We're truly committed to maintaining a good relationship, but not a marriage."

While they have been very quiet about the details, in the latest Runner's World, Kristin talks about being devastated when she and Lance got divorced. That is not typically the feeling you have when you are the person who wants the divorce. She deserves a great deal of respect(and his cash) for being so devoted to him, raising his three kids, and keeping mum about all things Lance.

Think about it: His life is the Tour, the fame, the money, the slut-, er, other things that fame and money brings. Her life was him. How likely is it that she wanted out? Anyway, when is the last time you saw a picture or article about Kristin being with someone else? And how soon after the breakup was Lance with Sheryl? (Hint: it was less than four months when the rumors started.)

Conclusive evidence? No. But this isn't a court of law, so you can use your common sense.

---

------------------------------------------------------------

Off the top of my head I can think of about 10 reasons she would want out.

I can't think of any for Lance.

Sure he may have been a lousy husband in some respects, but that doesn't mean he wanted it to end. In fact, his lousiness seems exactly the type of thing that would push Kristin to take action and get out.

Aside from that... The fame, the travelling, the unannounced doping checks, the pressure on Lance to win... Those seem like pretty compelling reasons for the OTHER person to want a different life. A life Lance couldn't offer.

Seems straight forward to me. Why would Lance want out? In the end it seems like another case of guilty until proven innocent. All we know is what we've read and none of that says who specifically wanted out. If we believe everything we've read then Lance is a doper, as is everyone in the peleton. So, tell me again why people blame Lance for his divorce?

---

----------------------------------
Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Marriage is a compromise. Lance didn't compromise. She did. Got tired of it. And left.

It is with the deepest of regrets that I have to say that Joe Thornton IS an ass. I say this as a lifelong Bruins fan, and I say it as someone who has defended Thornton against any number of arrogant Montreal fans. But there he is, the captain of the team, requesting a trade because management seems to be letting a number of players "walk". As captain, it is Thornton's right and duty to appeal his case to the top brass, but what kind of captain is he if he is willing to abandon a (lord how I hate to say this!) sinking ship? When training camp begins, and beyond, how can the rest of the players respect this guy if his main interst is being on a "winner"?

As for the original idea of this thread, no, I do not love Lance. I respect him as a cyclist and an advocate for cancer awareness, but beyond that I won't/can't commit. Part of me wants to see him win #6, parts wants to see an upset. But watching the fire as he finished today's stage -- mercy!

Because despite all that he has been through, his career is more important to him than his family. Consequently, he was not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to be a proper husband and father.

It's not for me to say that he should throw away what might be the most impressive career in the history of cycling, perhaps even sports, so that he could be with his family. My guess is that Kristin was not happy with the amount of time he spent out doing Lance "Tour de France Champion" Armstrong things, and he was not willing to compromise by spending more time with the family.

In reading what little the two of them say about the whole thing, he comes off as very matter of fact about it, while she seems very honest and affected. Perhaps he is more closed than her emotionally.

Personally, when I got divorced, it was quite some time before I was ready to start seeing anyone again. Therefore, I interpret his being with Sheryl Crow so soon as an indicator that he wasn't all that broken up by the divorce. Perhaps I'm projecting, but I think that hwo soon you start seeing people again after a breakup reflects your investment in the relationship.

---

------------------------------------------------------------

Not that it should be an excuse but Armstrong never really had a strong father figure in his life. Makes it harder to be a father and a husband when there's no one directly in his life to set the proper example.

Oh my good God, you all are a bunch of old hens. If gossip mongering was a sport, this would be the world championships.

Let it go, already- it's just a bike race, for crying out loud.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

- To be with Sheryl Crow (not sure why)

- To avoid the responsibilities of raising your children

- To be able to focus solely on HIMSELF.


I'll give you the last one.

The other two are pure BS/speculation/nonsense/.

None of you have any facts to back up your assertion. All you can say for sure is they got divorced and now Lance has a girlfriend. The rest is just how y'all imagine life is with the Armstrongs. Get over it. This is the classic guilty until proven innocent. At least admit that.

---

----------------------------------
Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Wow you guys know the ins and outs of Lances divorce, you even know he doesn't want to raise his kid and he an Crow hooked up before the divorce. Wow.

You know how you seperate the dead crabs from the live crabs in a barrel? You grab a crab and lift. The live ones latch on to the first crab then each other, a lot like they want to pull the others back into the barrel. Some of you are nothing but petty crabs in a barrel.

You do not know why he divorced or even if he did it. Yo have no evidence and y'alls cheesy Dr. Philing of what you see as facts means nothing.

He is not your friend and not your buddy. If he is a real fucker it is really no of your buisness. Sometimes I see myself as one pathitic jerk but all the Lance haters make me feel better about myself.

I like him because he is a local boy who did good. I have met him and he was a single son of a single mother who had the worlds biggest chip on his shoulder. So what? I bet there are thousnads of cancer paitents and survivors who think is a great guy.

What is the need to put so much emotion into an athlete?

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Henpecking gossipers reading info from the enquirer.

I don't know why we put so much emotion into athletes, but we do. it's not all clinical and logical. there's no point in saying "I'm not a role model". all athletes are, from top athletes in the TDF to the amateur ones you see at the local rides.

True he is a role model but he doesn't have to be yours (not you just saying yours for sentece structure.) If an athlete doesn't act like you think he should then that is your problem (again not you). There is a lot about Lance we do not know and how he treats those around him is one of them.

While I was in the Air Force there where two of me. The one at work was a type A over achieving beating. At work I busted my ass to know everything and be ready for anything and that could easily come off as not only coky but real assholish. At home I did my best to treat everyone around me well and be a sweet guy.

The guy on TV is not always the guy at home. I don't judge the guy from the jerk I met in high school. Who is really the same person they where in school?

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Lance haters need to find another hobby this summer, 2004 is not working out for ya.

Normally I never advise anyone on anything but focusing on your own racing might be a good idea.

Just think how fast you could race if only you'd use some of that Lance hatred to your advantage. Of course the down side is that you'd have Lance Armstrong to thank if you ever placed or something...

Sorry Lance haters, this is going to be an ugly year for you guys.

Better luck in 2005 or 2006.

Now you go out there and make it a great day...

there's no point in saying "I'm not a role model". all athletes are

I think Lance is an excellent role model. As a cyclist. If you're looking to him to be a role model in other aspects of life, I think you're acting unwisely.

---

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

What's Tyler doing now? Picking out a headstone for his dog I'd guess.

Tyler will never win the Tour. He's a nice guy, sure, but he just does not have command of his bike. He's proven that over and over.

It's pretty important to be able to keep your bike upright as often as possible if you want to win the Tour.

I respect his athletic abilities and charity commitments, but I don't like him.

---

------------------------------------------------------------

You are so full of crap. Since when does a stopwatch or calendar measure how someone feels about someone else or how broken up one is???? Everyone deals with things differently.

>>She deserves a great deal of respect(and his cash) for being so devoted to him,<<

Would that include going out and screwing someone else? Which is what I heard from someone who knows her.

Like Tibbs said.....

---

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

what is your goal for 2004?

Goddamn dude is there anyone who can live in your perfect little world?

ironclm stop going out the door and meeting people. Larry does not approve.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

Except you called her CLAM then changed it.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

You know, the only thing about him that I find inspirational is the level of fury he directs at his goals. Watching his face as he nails those climbs...that guy is a lesson in focus.

As for his personal life - let me put it this way, if my personal life had as much attention directed to it as his does, it would stink like a long drop on a summer's day.

---

kiwipat

per ardua ad astra

I have to say, I've heard the same story Cathy alludes to from some "insiders" in Austin. I don't know if it's true, but word is Kristen wasn't faithful(Lance either).

Of course it could be all gossip, but I've heard it from more than one source, at least one of which I consider to be very reliable. Who really cares?

1) Lance describes his regrets. Anyone ever ask Kristen hers?

2) Kristen's quote is very one-sided, no?

3) So they are committed to a good relationship, but not a marriage. This sounds mutual to me.

Brian, you made three points about how their marriage was all about Lance. Funny thing, though, you forgot to prove your point.



I'm getting a really weird feeling that you're not Lance's number one fan. So you don't like him as a person or cyclist. How about moving on.

I've never met the man, so can't say whether I like him or not, but it certainly appears as though he can ride a bicycle....

Did you go to PESH or Plano in high school?

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

PESH. Didn't graduate from there, though.

Hey Tibbsy. You're not a PESH grad are you? I know you live in the Dallas area, but it would be WAY too coincidental for there to be THREE PESH "alums" here.

---

-------------------------------------
Steve Perkins

I am a not so proud grad of Lakeview Centennial. Shit hole.

---

customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.

I am skeptical of Lance. The Lance I saw in his biographies is very different than the Lance I hear people talking about. Lance has almost reached Davey Crockett (Does Lance kill bears with his "bare" hands?) status where there's so much legend, you don't know what's true and what's myth.

He seems like a great rider with a poor personality.

I was shocked at how many times he quit when things didn't go his way .... only to be talked into coming back by friends and family.

By the stories you hear, you'd think he'd never quit anything.

I credit him for being very honest in his autobio ... most folks would sugar-coat their flaws.

--------------------------

I've read a lot of biographies about superstar athletes. Supreme confidence, ultra-competetiveness, and Selfishness are the 3 qualities they all share. Everything is about them winning. It's a trade off.

---

=======================
-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --