I'm sure Mark Allen's gas tank has extra compartments that most of the rest of us don't have. I race at a high level of discomfort (i.e. at about my 95% level) and save my surge (if I need it) for the end. I can't imagine surging on and off in a race unless I was running at about an 80% or less discomfort level.

makes no sense.

Kenyan runners often work together taking it in turns to surge and break others and Henry Rono was famous for continually dropping surges to break guys, but if you are trying to catch someone the best way to do it is to run steady. Surges only work to break another runner if that other runner is running with you....if he is 200 yards up the road all you are doing is breaking yourself.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

riiiiiiight...

Tell that to The Great One.

Haile Gebrselassie
Platz / Overall: 1 (in Altersklasse / Agegroup: M30)

5 km: 00:14:44
10 km: 00:29:27 / 00:14:43
15 km: 00:44:16 / 00:14:50
20 km: 00:59:10 / 00:14:54
25 km: 01:14:05 / 00:14:55
30 km: 01:28:56 / 00:14:51
35 km: 01:43:38 / 00:14:43
40 km: 01:58:08 / 00:14:30
FINISH: 2:04:26

I thought it was a bit different myself, but it worked for both these guys...and continues to do so for the first. He constantly comes from off the pace on the bike to run down the leaders and win races.

Also, just to clarify. When I say backing off, I'm not talking about walking or slowing to 8 minute miles or anything. For the ITU guy it amounts to going from sub 5s to 5:20ish or so. Just easing off enough to give the body a bit of a break.

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Fit2Tri Multisport
http://www.fit2tri.com

Looks like Gebrselassie did some serious slacking off between 10k and 30k.

I remember Dave Scott saying the same thing many many years ago. He ran hard and when it started to hurt he would slow down until he recovered and then went hard again. He didn't have the prettiest running style but it seemed to work pretty good for him. Of course, until Mark caught him in '89.

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18x Ironman, 3x Hawaii
US Army (Ret.), Vietnam Vet ('71-'72)

Those are steady 5ks, and I'm sure if you took the 5k splits from the two athletes that I got this from theirs would be pretty steady too. The harder efforts are less than 5k, and there are a lot of ways one could vary their pace within that 5k and still have steady 5k splits.

I'm just asking because these 2 guys are 2 of the best runners in our sport and they have and continue to race this way.

Not advocating it, saying its right or wrong...just that I heard it, hadn't before and thought it was interesting.

Sounds a lot like what I've heard people advocate for pacing a sprint on the bike...go til you feel like puking, back off a bit, and go again.

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Fit2Tri Multisport
http://www.fit2tri.com

Next time I'm 200 yards up the road and you are trying to catch me...PLEASE run this way.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

What's your deal?? I never said I did run this way, or that it was the right way to run. I just heard that 2 of the top runners in triathlon have and are running this way and was interested to see if any of the guys on here who come from a running background had heard of this before or ran this way.

Who knows. I've always run steady and tried to build my effort level throughout the run, but maybe I will run this way and run you down...but then again you have to manage to get 200yds up the road on me ;)

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Fit2Tri Multisport
http://www.fit2tri.com

Maybe there is some merit to this. I did a similar thing to chase down a guy in my AG in a race last weekend. It took me about a mile to close the 200 yard gap through surging and recovering. I finally caught and passed him then backed off slightly and he passed me. Then I just ran on his heels for a bit while I recovered. About a quarter mile from the finish I then put on a strong pass that we couldn't respond to and put over 15 seconds on him at the finish. Of course we're both in our 50s and neither of us is exactly elite status.

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Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!

 
I don't have a deal. I told you, the most efficient and therefore the fastest way to run is evenly. Constantly surging and then backing off is a very inefficient way to run and makes absolutely no sense in any way shape or form unless your competition is on your shoulder or can see you and you are trying to break him. Using this tactic to catch a guy ahead of you or who doesn't know you're there doesn't make any sense. Run a steady pace and you'll catch him faster and you'll be in better shape to drop him too.

And I can guarantee you that Geb's mile splits are as even, probably moreso, than his 5K splits.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

I don't come from a running background, and I don't recall the specifics of the article I'm referring to, but I do remember reading an article once where the author spent some time training with elite Kenyan runners and described a similar tactic. They're running at the same pace as the person they're trying to catch, but instead of pushing the pace and running them down, and possibly blowing up, they take it in chunks by surging faster for up to a minute then backing back off to their previous pace.

scott

I've always been more in the steady pacing camp, unless I'm head to head with someone then surges are appropriate, but that has never happened in an Ironman. But I think what they are referring to is as much a mental surge as actually increasing the pace. My guess is running like that kept Mark's pace pretty consistent but it took more and more effort as the race went on. So by making a decision to surge he was probably maintaining pace, but digging deeper into his reserves.

MC

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http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com

That's what I've always heard/thought, which is why I was interested to hear Mark Allen and this other ITU athlete (one of top runners) say they ran almost like they were running intervals during their race, with the ITU racer actually measuring it to 2k on 30" 'rest'...if you can call 5:15s resting. Listen to that competitor podcast with Mark. He said he felt he wouldn't have been able to catch him if he just tried to run steady. Again, I'm not saying its right or wrong or faster or slower...just that its interesting to hear something against mainstream thinking/practice from 2 of the sports top runners.

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Fit2Tri Multisport
http://www.fit2tri.com

Good point. That makes a lot of sense. 1 of them I can actually talk to about it, so I'll have to do that to get it sorted out. That's actually how I try to run, especially for events longer than 10k. The pace doesn't change much if any, but in order to hold it as the tank runs low it feels like I'm working a lot harder.

Thanks.

Mark

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Fit2Tri Multisport
http://www.fit2tri.com

Somewhere along the way I picked up "feel good-run good." Running this way gave me faster times at ironman than proper pacing.
Also surging, and chasing are very risky, which can really pay off. We don't always know what we can do and sometimes going faster than we might plan results is finding out we can go faster than we think.
Lastly in short course running it can be good to run someone down but then recover before trying to drop them. A strong move can break someone while going by someone gassed is an invation to battle them and then sprint to the line. That's less good.
That said I always race best when I measure my pace properly in half ironmans. So there you go: three different distance-three different approaches. Lucky for me I hear at least 3 voices in my head :)

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http://www.johnhirsch.org
http://www.stronglikebulltraining.com

They are called ins and outs. I will do a 2-3 mile ins outs as part of my weekly interval workout. Ins at 3k pace/ outs at marathon pace. The time interval is 30 seconds. It will take you a few months to get used to them and it might take longer to race that way. I don't race that way the whole time. I only incorporate the ins/outs towards the end of a race.

Surging in a race is nothing new, you can look through the race reports of just about any XC race, marathon, road race and many triathlons and duathlons (especially the first run). Not the most economical way to run, but if you can run a 5;30 pace per mile and the other dude can run only a 5;40 ppm and you guys are racing at 5:50 ppm your surge if you hold it long enough can be a way to get rid of the other guy. Abdi broke the back of the entire NCAA XC nationals field one year doing this repeatedly, well broke everyone but Goucher that is.


If you are not going over your limits too often but forcing others over their limits more often, sooner or later they will disappear.

Most triathletes are in decreasing velocity running mode once they get off the bike until the final 200m.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Runners do this when they're racing tactically-- i.e., trying to win the race, but not necessarily PR. When they're going for a record, they have a rabbit to help them hit the splits pretty even except for a fast finish. Road cyclists do this too, only they call it "attacking." However, when cyclists are time trialing, they pace as evenly as the terrain allows and finish hard, just like the runners going for a record. Both types of athletes train specifically to be able to handle these efforts and not die. The only time I've seen this approach be useful in triathlon is in ITU Oly distance. I think most of us non-ITU triathletes are better off using those training stress points in other ways rather than developing our ability to surge and recover in races.

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__________________________
http://www.aliciaparr.com/blog
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Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?

That sounds like a brutally hard workout. When you race that way, do you really surge to 3k pace? How long are the races where you employ this tactic? If I dropped so much as 800 meters at 3k pace in the middle of a 5k, I would blow up within a couple of minutes.

Another real good workout is to do 10x1k @ 5k pace (30sec rest).

Yeah ... I definitely wouldn't put it past you to give me that workout.

Yes the technique of surging then backing off does work in a race, of 10 km or 5 km , Not sure if it would work to your advantage in a long triathlon , I could see this idea working in a sprint tri. 750 swim , 20 k cycle, 5 k run.. longer tri's require you to the conservation of power and energy'
just my opinion for what its worth . Master's Long course triathlon champion 2004 ..
a runner for over 35 years and a cyclist since 1980, Track & field coach ..
http://www.idorun.ca
good luck in your training

There is no secret sauce that works for everyone. Try it in your training...especially your tougher bricks and see how it goes. Sometimes mixing things up a little can yeild a breakthrough. Hell...doing it in training could potentially benefit you in a race where you run steady the whole way anyhow...just from the adaptations.
I think I may fiddle with it...why not.

ADW

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ADW

It's only tangentially related, but Jeff Galloway has always recommended running marathons using walk breaks to achieve your best performance

http://www.jeffgalloway.com/...ing/walk_breaks.html

This is his recommendation for beginners shooting for 6 hours all the way to folks looking to set a BQ time and faster. There could be something to the psychology of it. YMMV.

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M
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'tri or tri not, there is no du' - yoda

"...Mark Allen who made reference to it on that competitor radio podcast when he was talking about chasing down a competitor at the Nice triathlon. His quote was something to the effect of "if I wanted to catch him I couldn't race like a triathlete, I had to race like a runner. "

Runner's don't race like that. Not good ones, anyway.

It has to be towards the end of a tactical race. And it is a great way to begin my interval workout. I enjoy doing ins/outs versus strides.

In the workout (trails) you are only going 30" on / 30" off. Just set your watch for 30" and change pace at the beep. On the track the corners are at marathon and the straights are at 3k.

I have used this tactic in a recent XC races and a 10K two weeks ago with success. XC is tactical since time does not matter. So breaking your competition or trying to surge around people on trails and catch back up to the leaders takes practice of some sort.

In the 10K I was even paced through 5 miles and at the turnaround I noticed 3 guys with much better mile speed 10 seconds back. Rather than panic or pray that they would not catch back up. I made a deal to ins/outs until i was comfortable just hammering until the end. It worked for this race.

Also, you might not be the one dictating the race. So the training helps get used to the known/ unknown changes in pace.

If you are blah, the INs are the most important part. I was only doing 1 mile in the spring and now that my intervals have increased to 5-6 miles the ins/outs have increased to 2-3 miles of the interval total.

To be honest, this is the 1st year I have done this type of workout. But after training with runners I assimilated into their interval style and it has worked.

There is talk of doing 10x1000 at 5k in my near future....but I get a 200 jog to recover. Much nicer than that 30 second rest.


Paulo, Now how do you balance athletes training at HR and also at pace? Intervals and tempo at goal pace and longer and recovery runs at HR?

-Woody

OK, I think I understand the workout you are describing. I suspect that you are underestimating your 3k pace, marathon pace, or both, as it is more or less impossible to sustain that effort level over 10 or even 5k. But broadly speaking the jog the curves/sprint the straitaways is an excellent VO2 max workout.

Especially for 5k and 10k, it can be very helpful tactically to have some ability to surge and back off while staying relatively close to your pace. It definitely makes sense to try to develop that ability. Good for you for making use of it in an actual race situation, that is awesome.

No. Most of the athletes I coach use HR for most workouts and I remind them about the limitations of HR when it comes to measuring intensity. So it's a combination of HR and perceived exertion.

Seems to work well for Brandon Leslie as well as Jonathan Riley.

[b]Morning all, The practice of surging in a race does work, but the main thing to remember is not to run over your threshold during the race, on one of these surge's, thats where the body loses all its energy and forward motion . The short of the meaning "losing it"
Main thing is to practice this before you do the surging technique in a race of any kind. Hey and only use surging if you think it may help you in the a race. Surging is a tactic for runners and it has been a round for a long time. I have used the tactic in my younger years to beat runners who have had more speed than me or had a better kick near the end.
This tactic (surging should be practiced during a tempo run. During a triathlon or a dul try the tactic during the run portion of a short brick..
In the long run what ever you do with this technique of surging . This will no doubt help you be a better runner or triathlete.. www.idorun.ca

[/b][url]

next time i'm 200 yards up the road and you are trying to catch me.....please run your way.

thanks, Henry :-)

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Latest Duct tape QR Superfull fashion model

I actually do a workout just like that before Ironman, but not as fast. I do 10 X 1 mile at 5 -10 secs faster than open marathon pace, with 30 secs rest! I'm doing it this Tuesday for IMFL!

MC

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http://www.mctriguy.blogspot.com

Well ... kind of. It's similar in that it's ten repetitions, but different in the fact that it's 1) possible and 2) addressing a completely different energy system. The workout Paulo gave is also known as "an impossible VO2 max workout" and the one you describe is "a tempo run with rest". Even if the 1k repeats were possible, yours is a much better workout for IM. See you in Florida!

wow, that sounds much harder than a 10K race.

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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative." Oscar Wilde

Why is it an "impossible vo2 max workout?"

love from,
a curious exercise phys student

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Too many reps above VO2 max pace without enough recovery. If you can do it, get out and race a 5k because your estimate of 5k pace was too easy, and you've got a nice PR coming :-)

I think the only 1k repeats I've ever done are the swimmer version
and certainly not ten of them

Thanks for explaining. I learn more on here than I do in class.... like jonnyo said it is Slowtwitch Forum University!!!

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

The tactic you described is fine; but everything is contextual- sometimes it makes more sense to run even pace hard to catch a competitor, other times, it makes sense to throw in a burst to catch or drop him. It all depends on your planning around race placing, your real-time fitness, where you sit in a race, etc. Again, context.

If you want to try that tactic in a race, by all means- give it a whirl.

Personally, I'd suggest aggressive (e.g. pace changes) tactics are useful for most AGs up through HIM distance, after that, even pacing in Iron distance race makes the most sense.