Tom,

Ignorance is bliss, but when they put your name to it then it is not just damaging to them but to your reputation, too.

Sent an email to your bikesport site last week about getting a fit with no response. Is that still a valid email? Would really like to have a competent fit on my current bike and you never know what purchases are in the future. ;)

Larry

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Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Hi Larry, Sorry for not getting back to you. The past three weeks have been a little un-routine for me with a lot of travel. I was in Banff with my G/F, then in California at the FIST Fit Clinic and wrecked my car on the way to that so I had to deal with that (just got it back this morning- not in good shape). As soon as I started the process of getting my car out I had to get down to Florida quickly on Sunday and got back yesterday. Between all that and the crappy weather I haven't known whether I'm coming or going. I have answered about 1/8th of my e-mail from the last two weeks- mostly the stuff for customers trying to get bikes they bought 8 weeks ago. So, I apologize- the season is here and I'm behind. Typical deal. If you don't mind shooting the e-mail back to me I promise to read it (more quickly at the top of the date pile) and get back to you. This morning I've been posting from my G/F's laptop since there is so much snow I am going to the store later (gotta dig my house and my neighbor's out).

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom

Figured there was a reason. I'll repost my email and go from there. Thanks for the quick response.
Larry

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Larry

Don't be afraid to ride too long or too hard. That's what cell phones are for. Rich Strauss

Tom, I don't see how this is "dangerous" in the true sense of the word. However, unlike most of us, triathlon is your business and livelyhood, so it's certainly understandable how you would be upset if someone was attributing an improper bike fit to you that was not your work. That's a lot different than if the guy said that "cerveloguy" on the slowtwitch forum told him how to do it. Being that you are in the business, you have a reputation to protect. Your point is well taken, but since you are somewhat of a celebrity within the tri-geek world, it's probably not a surprise that this sort of thing could happen ocassionally.

No worries, again, my apologies to you.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Ahh, true. Dangerous is an overstatement and reflects my occasional penchant for overstatement. Perhaps "frustrating" may have been a better chracterization. Good point. For the record, you strike me as one of the guys for whom fit information may be used with the attendant caution and care it is due.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

I'm not sure if this post is in reply to or a result of the question I posed moments ago about tweaking my position, but I would like to take the opportunity to further explain that request. My bike is pretty much set up. I've spec'd it based on several different criteria -- I've read all the fit stuff I can, I've logged a pretty good number of miles on several different bikes, I've even been through a professional fitting before -- so I have an idea on what I want/need. I also think I have enough sense to read information -- provided it is from reliable sources -- and follow the directions. So I guess I'm not trying to "fit" my bike as much as I am trying to "tweak" the position. I am not trying to fit others nor would I ever say that "so and so" from the forum said this is the way to do it.

I realize that by trying to do this myself I am taking a chance, and if I screw up, it is nobody's fault but my own. Who knows? Some of you may be able to purchase my screw ups on ebay soon!

That being said, I do not intend this to be construed as a flame. Nothing could be further from the truth. I posed my earlier question with more than a little trepidation because I do not consider all the information floating around out here reliable. However, I do consider Tom D. and many, many others as reliable sources of information.

I would love to get my position dialed in by a reputable fitter. But given my finances and my location I cannot. So I'll have to work on it myself until I can get to a good fitter.

RP

Tom, I hear you and feel for ya, man.

Let me get this straight, though...you don't release fit information at least prior to the sale. THAT makes perfect sense to me. You've got to protect your bottom line against the mail/e-order powerhouses. What about after you've made a sale? Am I missing something here in thinking there shouldn't be any real harm in that? I, for one, would like a record of it so that I could maintain those measurements on the bike, especially when I make inevitable changes of seatpost, stem, etc. when something sexier comes out. But then again, I tend toward loyalty to my local shops anyway even if it means I spend more.

I look at it like this: The system you use to come up with the measurements and recommendations is totally your intellectual property (well, maybe some of it is borrowed from others like Slowman, etc, but you know what I mean). I don't want to have the equations you used to come up with the numbers. If I did, I'd expect to pay you for them, or have to research it myself. The ACTUAL NUMBERS, however, are a product of your system and my body. I think that makes it property of both of us. Anybody with any basic knowlege of what we're dealing with here knows those measurements are highly individualistic, and therefore not applicable in any other way than for that particular customer and bike setup. I'm not sure how it could hurt for the customer to have that information, subsequent to actually purchasing the bike from your shop.

Regarding the guy who used your name in vain, that's just wrong. Lack of moral courage. Intellectual dishonesty. LYING. All the same. He just wanted to name drop. Totally immature and jv move! You and all the shops out there deserve better treatment from the customer. Although "the customer is always right," I think its a two way street and customers need to respect the sanctity of the shop too.

You know, as I was writing this a though occured to me: I've always hated those Nytro stickers all over bikes they sell and fit, mostly because I looked at it as free advertising, not to mention ruining the graphics scheme. But now I think, they might be onto something. Maybe you should stick something on the bikes you sell, besides the usual small sticker down by the bb. Maybe "Fit by TD," "BSM," or something that would become identifiable with you and your shop, as Nytro has.

I agree with Not a PCer. If someone comes into your store and pays for a fitting, they should walk away with a product-- the numbers from your fitting. That way they can replicate that fit on the same bike for equipment changes, match that fit for their other bikes if they so choose, or even modify that fit if they want to. They shouldn't take a modified fit and claim it was yours, but some of your customers might and it's a risk you'd have to face. Perhaps during the fit process you could discuss this issue with your customers, or even have them sign some sort of "agreement form" before commencing with the fit process if you feel the need for some type of pseudo-legal protection. If you're NOT going to give the measurements away, I'd certainly need to know that in advance, as I'd want the numbers.

What about the athlete that takes the bike apart for air travel. A Softride, for example, has to come way apart. Numbers would be good to make sure it is set up corectly at the race site.

We don't charge for the fit on a new bike.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

OK, Here's some clarification: If a guy buys a bike from us we don't charge for the fit AND we don't give him the numbers since he would potentially use them to buy elsewhere.
If someone comes in for an existing fit we also DON'T give them the numbers but we have been charging welll under the market rate for fits (usually less than $65) until recently. That do leave here with a tangible product in the form of the improvements we made in their position- but no "intellectual inventiry", i.e. measurements that may be of dubious use to them.

Someone made the point of assembling a bike after flight: Thank you for agreeing with me. People screw their positions up all the time trying to reassemble their bike from a flight case using a set of measurements. This is what I mean: I tell you your saddle height is precisely 72.4 cm. Easy right? Nope. I can give any three people in here a Lufkin metric tape measure, tell them "Set it to precisely 72.4 cm." and it is likely there will be enough variance between each of them that I could probably tell. And these are guys who measure dimension maybe 10-30 times per day at a minimum.

Yup, I hear your question: So what do you do? Well, I make a MINOR scribe in the seatpost then visually show the customer how to locate the post correctly. The man who pointed out the case of the Softride makes valid point however, and that opnes up another set of challenges that I do not have an answer for this second (but could if pressed and given more than 45 seconds to respond to).

Those are my thoughts- I hope that clears things up. Good Thread.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Tom, Here's a for instance: I'm going to change out the SLR currently atop my Saber in favor of the Aspide. Assuming I had purchased from you, I have a scribe mark appropriate for my SLR. Does this mean I need to come back to you for a refit with this different part? The post measurement would certainly be different. What about the saddle rails. They are differently located on these saddles, not to mention that Selle Italia's "0" is not Selle San Marco's "0" mark. If I've traveled from afar, like you mentioned one customer did, traveling back to get a new scribe mark is not an option. Having the measurements would allow me to duplicate the position, accuracy notwithstanding.

This may become a neverending "what if" thread, but it seems to me your policy may have some serious limitations from a customer standpoint.

I must be missing something here, I get fit by you, I walk out of the store, I take my tape measure & write down the numbers. Haven't your measurements just left the store? How are these measurements "dangerous in the wrong hands" & what does this have to do with someone who never had the info in the first place but claims they were fit by you (I understand being upset with that one - certainly defamatory if the guy had a lousy fit!). My fitter gave me all the measurements, & I immediately marked my seatpost etc so I'd be able to reproduce the fit if something got moved. I would have been more than a little POd if the guy had refused to write down the measurements!

Are you trying to say you don't share the fit methodology with your clients so they don't go out & try to fit others? If so, I'm with you there. Having some know it all mindlessly applying some formula for drop that ignores the client's flexibility & insisting it had to be so according to Tom would certainly be a bad situation.

Yes, we avoid sharing our fit methodology and reuslting measurements to prevent:

1. Mistakes through misinterpretation/misuse of numbers.
2. Theft of our process.
3. Possibility that information may be used to purchase a bike elsewhere after we have spent an hour with a client (WITHOUT charging them) to size them for a new bike.

We already had one employee leave the store and go elsewhere proclaiming he was an "expert in triathlon fit" (he did one triathlon). Not much we can do about that- the results speak for themselves when people have been "fitted" by him. Our ability to do a nice job fittng someone is a real and tangible asset. We don't want it profaned or compromised by someone who doesn't fully understand the process AND take commensurate responsitilty for the outcome. When we fit someone from start to finsih we take blame AND credit. When it works correctly (usually- almost always)we feel good about that. When we blow it (it's happened) we take responsibility for that and fix it- here in our store. I can't do that over the internet, by phone, etc. There is a saying in the bike industry, and pardon my vernacular: Fit a thousand bikes and you're not yet a bike fitter- but wreck one fit and you're a fit wrecker.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

your policy sucks.. plain and simple.. if I pay good money for a fit, I want the numbers. Uhh, how about providing numbers specific to the bike. Height of saddle from BB, offset from BB, stuff like that. Just enough info so someone can tweak minor aspects of their setup or break down their bike and reassemble it.

It's not really rocket science to bust out the tape meassure and figure out the details of a fit.

mike

[reply]
3. Possibility that information may be used to purchase a bike elsewhere after we have spent an hour with a client (WITHOUT charging them) to size them for a new bike.
[/reply]

My LBS charges $100 for the fit, even if you tell them you are going to buy a bike from them. They then refund you the $100 if you do purchase a bike from them, this way they make out, though not as good, if you do go somewhere else for the purchase. This $100 is for a full fitting on a size-cycle etc, if you purchase a bike and then get fit at that time on a trainer with some stem swaps etc then it is free.

A

I appreciate an honest opinion. For me the bottom line is that I am angry someone took fit information from A fitting I alledgedly did and then used it to fit themsleves incorrectly on the wrong bike- then, to make matters worse, he is in a another dealer saying "Tom Demerly fit me on this! Isn't it cool?" Sooner or later someone who knows something will say "Hey, you may think that bike is cool but it doesn't fit and was a bad choice for you." then I have to pay the price in getting my credibility compormised, when I didn't have the chance to properly maintain it. That sucks too.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

Sorry Tom, but that reasoning makes no sense. I could just as easily walk out of your store with a bike which you truly "fit" me on, then change all sorts of things when I get home (e.g.., slide my saddle back on the rails, lower my seatpost, change my stem, etc.) and still claim to others that my messed up position was done by you. Face it: You have zero control over what people do when they leave your store.

Now, I don't like your policy of not providing the data either, but that just means that you (or others who have your policy) won't get my business. You are free to set your rules, and I'm free to chose whether or not I play your game and buy your service. That's just the market at work.

Brent

"Theft of our process"

Huh? Is it your process? No, certainly not. At best, its Dan's though he explicitly says that the process is not completely his either. Did you "steal" the process from Dan? Of course not. You paid him however much money and in exchange, he taught you how to fit anyone who comes into your shop on a tri-bike. If I pay you to show me how to fit myself on a tri-bike and I leave and fit (or re-fit) myself on a tri-bike, have I stolen something from you? I think not.

Bike shop owners seem to have trouble differentiating between selling goods (like bikes) and selling services (like a fit). They seem to want to tie one to the other. Sell me your goods for what you think they're worth, sell me your services for what you think they're worth. If that means I don't buy your goods, but I buy your services, at least you will have half a business. If you price your services for less than they're worth and try to charge more for your goods than they're worth, don't be upset when I buy your underpriced services and pass on the goods you've overpriced in favor of something I can get the internet.

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________________________________________________

Anyone who tells you they're as fast now as they were when they were 18...
sure wasn't very fast when they were 18.

"Fit Information: Dangerous in the Wrong Hands"

Sounds like it would be best if before we're allowed to puchase a fitting session, our local communities should mandate a 'three day cooling off period' and use that time to perform a background check.

We wouldn't want a proper fit to fall into the wrong hands.

But on the other hand, poor bike fits don't kill... People do.

Excellent advice. You won't take my Fit Kit until you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

"Yup, I hear your question: So what do you do? Well, I make a MINOR scribe in the seatpost then visually show the customer how to locate the post correctly."

When I deconstruct my bike for travel, I just put papertape (you know, the stuff that you can write on and doesn't leave marks or glue) onto the various places to mark exactly where I need to reline things up. Cheap, easy and accurate. Then if I change bits (seat, bars etc.) I don't need to remember which scribe mark is the right one since there is no permanent mark on my bike.

Cheers,
dt.

Shoes and bikes= not the same. Ineffective analogy in my opinion.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com

After re-reading the posts it seems that many people want something tangible, other than their bike properly set up, to take away with them from a fitting. I personally would want something as well. On the other hand I see TD's point. I myself have remeasured my bike hundreds of times and gotten different measurements there and here. In a way, Tom, although he did not design the entire fit process, has I would guess, seen enough different processes to pick and choose parts of each that compliment each other and has come up with something that says "I'm Tom's fit process". I ride with 2 fitters in my town, 1 w/ Europro experience for over a decade as a rider and then as a mechanic. The other guy is a life long shop employee. Both fit differently. I know people who have used both and been set up differently each time. Just because you have measurements does not mean it is correct for you on a different bike. What if you to another shop and they come up with a different number for say TT length for the same bike. Do you go to a third or fourth until a majority is reached? I view fitting as a process as I viewed my 2 physiology professors, both taught the same thing just went about it in different ways. I think Tom is trying to protect an investment he is making in the customer. An investment where he is trying to get a return on that investment. If I buy a bike I expect to get fit onto the bike I buy. As it seems so do many people on this board. I think it is more than fair to try and protect your intellectual property. Once you factor in build, fit, inventory costs, time it took to sell the bike, test rides, the net profit margin on that bike is thin. You don't eat steak on that net profit but Taco Bell instead no supersizing either. Personally I would want something in writing about that paticular bike fit. But I do understand the need to protect your processes etc. Would I be upset if nothing was given to me. Yeah, for a bit but not enough to make me shop elsewhere. Customer service and customer relations sell. So Tom move where it is real real warm in the summer and you have a customer even if you keep my fit measurements.

Tom,

I remember reading an article of dan's a while ago (couple months) on this site that is about getting a tri bike fit. One of the things that he says to look for is to make sure that you get the numbers when you get the fit.

Also, you said that you were charging $65 until just recently...how much are you charging now?

Thanks,



-Kevin

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"Anyone can work hard when they want to; Champions do it when they don't."

Wow. This is very interesting, isn't it. A few thoughts. I have. regarding choosing a new saddle, bars or whatever, which may potentially "nullify" an existing fit, or not be "doable" with a scribe, piece of electrical tape whatever - if you can't get this then you just aren't anal enough. A good piece of cord, a yardstick, an "angle measurer" (I forget the official name) and a piece of paper and a pencil and you can add/delete any piece of equipment and replace it with any other. I've swapped saddles twice without any impact - took me over an hour each time, but that's b/c I am so friggin anal that I took like 15 measurements, repeated them, then installed the new hardware and repeated. While tom is correct that 3 people will see 75.1 cm as very different from person to person I know exactly what and where I am measuring so that is not an issue.

Now, as for fit and numbers - the same thing largely holds. When you get the bike home, measure the crap out of it. With the right tools and lots of patience you can get all your measurements and have more than enough to go off of to reconstruct the bike from scratch if need be. If you are careful in your measurements and constistent then it should never be a problem. As for the process, I personally don't really care. I want to be a good triathlete - not a good bike fitter. If I wanted to be a bike fitter I'd go to Serotta school and FIST and read all Dan's articles 10 times and all that Frankly, I've got enough to worry about trying to go under 10 for an IM - I couldn't give a shit about how Tom arrives at my fit - so long as it does in fact fit and makes me faster. That probably puts me in the minority around here, but I am just not interested in how we get to the result so long as we get there. For example, I make my living designing and building software. Part of that process is that there is a certain amount of intellectual property involved and the client doesn't get to see what is behind the curtain (and most frankly do not want to - they just want a functional product). Now, once the software is delivered the client "owns" that software - they can even look at the code if they want to. BUT - they certainly don't get an explanation from me of what the code does, how it was built, what the process was, and so on. If they want that, there are perfectly good places to go and learn that. AND, if they want to try to reverse engineer it, they are welcome to try but I do not guarantee the results. To me, this is exactly the same as where Tom is coming from. My LBS charges $75 on a new bike for a fitting - frankly, I think that is bullshit. Part of what I'm buying is fit, and it damned well better be in the price of the bike (note: I also do not haggle on price. I pay whatever is asked, no questions asked as I believe in the value of things such as the shop's expertise).

My take-away, is if you really want to know the process and understand fit, then you are better off going with (i.e. paying) a consultant like Fitwerx or whomever and hiring them to measure you, spec some bikes, then you buy the bike from a dealer, then go back to your consultant and do the final fit.

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"To give less than your best is to sacrifice the gift." - Pre

MattMizenko.com

I read this thread yesterday and was thinking a lot about it and decided to post my opinion. Tom, I hope you'll consider changing your policy of not giving your customers this fit information.

I always think it's best to educate the consumer to the extent that they want to be educated. Some people won't care about this info, but others certainly will. Smarter consumers tend to make smarter choices, and I've always got the impression that your goal is to get consumers to make the right choice. This sort of policy sort of implies that the consumer is too stupid or incapable of understanding bike fit. I've been measured up a few times, and every time things are a bit different. I like to see different approaches to fitting and gaining an understanding of what works for me. Wouldn't it be great for those who want to know how to look at a frame's geometry specs and decide if the frame will work for them and in what size, to have shops help educate them in that process? I know I certainly feel loyalty to shops that are willing to take me seriously and take the time to teach me something new. I know I'd be VERY turned off if I went to a shop, spent some time talking about the lines they carry, get measured to determine what bikes in that line might work for me, then be told that they will not give me that info. As a matter of fact, I'd make a point of not buying my bike there. Why do I want the info? I want to look at what other bikes might work for me that the shop doesn't carry. If the shop doesn't want me to do that, does it mean they don't have confidence in their line?

I think shops need to understand that customers are most likely going to tinker with their bikes and fit. At their own risk. I get the impression you are very against this, almost as if you want fit to be something that is not user serviceable. I think people should be encouraged to tinker with their fit and bikes if they are so inclined, it can serve them well in travel, racing, and general riding. Just like how it helps to learn how to change a flat, or swap a cassette, it also helps to learn how one might alleviate knee or back pain.

I understand you concerns about your name being misused or misrepresented. That sucks. People lie all the time. There's nothing you can do about it. It's best to continue to foster and rely on a good reputation.

So you give them the numbers. Not how you arrived at them, but the actual hard numbers.

Sounds like you are confused. If Tom were you, he wouldn't even give up the code.

"I think shops need to understand that customers are most likely going to tinker with their bikes and fit."

Don't see how there can be a "perfect" static fit that would just be left alone for the entire year. The body is a dynamic and constantly changing structure in the sense that our flexibility can be variable from day to day, not only just from the early season to late season. Also have to consider the terrain, the length of the planned ride, etc. as factors relative to comfort and effeciency. Many people fiddle with their bikes all the time making minute changes dependent on various factors. What the initial fit setup does is give a generalized ball park to play in. Nothing wrong IMO for making regular minute changes as needed from there to fine tune.

I concur: Merckx was fiddling to the point of obsession. Hinault was another fiddler. Position change. Valid point.

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Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com