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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I personally don't have beef with this. I would feel more comfotrable with this if they specified the charity which they would be donating the money to. Also If they are donating the money they should be very clear about exactly what money goes to what place. Then again I feel in general it is not fair or important to question someones motives when they are giving to charity. In my mind the important thing is that it is being done. I also believe IM MOO did something similair, not an auction but higher priced entry fee.

After saying that I can understand why people would feel uncomfortable by this decision.
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I'll just say, those meer mortals and those with natural talent who have perservered for years to seek an IMH slot just got their hard work toward personal success put on the "in your face" auction block.

That being said, I'll be curious as to what the value of such an opportunity will go for on the open market.

Joe Moya
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Re: Comments? [taku] [ In reply to ]
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I also don't have a problem with it, provided the money goes to a deserving charity.
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Re: Comments? [jaylew] [ In reply to ]
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i'll just say - it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't surprise cathy.
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Re: Comments? [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
i'll just say - it doesn't surprise me that it doesn't surprise cathy.
I just call 'em as I see 'em. I also stand enough behind my opinions to put my real name and location in the user profile.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Auction better/same as lottery [ In reply to ]
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How is an auction for charity any worse or different than the lottery system? At least the auction winners have put a significant amount of money towards a charity.

I would rather have no lottery and all the lottery slots go to auction. (I know the contract wouldn't allow it)
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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Huh? Right, then it becomes the CEO challenge. They already have those. Kona is already expensive (and thus to some extent elitist) enough for the lower income triathlete.

That said I have no problem with a limited number of new slots going to a charity auction, as long as those buying the slots have to do SOMETHING (minimum half IM) to qualify, with a no-refund policy.
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [Marlin] [ In reply to ]
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My assumption was that the auction winners will have to do the same things that lottery winners have to do.
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, but I'm a cynic. Two questions:

1. Does IMH currently have a charity that benefits from the race? If so, they just found a way to keep the entire revenue stream to themselves, plus still direct money to the charity. It's a pretty short step from here to selling "premium" slots for big dollars that are bundled with say, some luxe accomodations, etc., with a portion of the total price "allocated" to a charitable contribution, and a bigger portion than the regular entry fee going to IMH pockets (they work a deal with the accomodation providers that gives them a discount, but they show the "regular" price as part of the total package and pocket a discount).

2. They say there will be now reduction in the number of lottery/qualifier slots. In that case, they have clearly made the decision that the race can handle additional competitors, so they are electing to do this when they could increase the number of qualifiers. Are they electing to create a new category (people with more $$ than pride), rather than allow more qualifiers to participate in the race because (a) they want to help the world, or (b) they want to reach a finger in and get a little of that money either now or later. Anyone aware anything that causes them to believe IM is more interested in (a) than (b)?

BTW, that last question isn't entirely sarcastic. Maybe there is something out there to so indicate. I haven't done any long course races, I'm not particularly talented, and I would rather spend my vacations doing soemthing other than a triathlon, so I don't really follow the IMH scene that closely. Maybe they aren't as capitalistic as I assume.
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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>>How is an auction for charity any worse or different than the lottery system? At least the auction winners have put a significant amount of money towards a charity.<<

You then limit it to people with a lot of discretionary cash. At least with the lottery, money is not an object (just the cost of the trip if you get a slot).

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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<<You then limit it to people with a lot of discretionary cash.>>

OK, I'm notoriously bad at communication so bear with me...

The people who win the lottery are undeserving of their slot in the fact that they got their slot for no reason (other than a few hundred $ given to WTC). In other words the lottery winners cannot point to a body of work and say this is the reason I'm going to kona. This is not a value judgement of lottery winners, just an evaluation of what it took to get to kona.

The people who win the auction point to their body of work (thousands of $ given to charity and a few hundred $ to WTC) and say this is why I should go to kona.

Personally, I don't want to go to Kona on either of these tickets. If I go, it will be through qualifying, which means I'll probably never go. However, if you want to talk about who deserves to go more, I would have to choose the person who donated money over the person who did nothing.

An interesting experiment would be to put in 1,000 hours of volunteer work for a good community project. Send in your race entry fee with a letter explaining to the WTC that you cannot afford an auction slot and submit your 1,000 hours as your donation to charity. Be sure and complete a qualifying race just like a lottery winner.

If I were the Kona RD I'd have 100 slots open for these kinds of people. Not only would it be an admirable thing to do, but think of the positve pr! Think of the sponsors who would love to have their names associated with that! Heck, an enterprising person could probably get these 100 volunteers some serious sponsorship so that they could compete with very little out of pocket expnses.
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But at the end of the day IF they are not [ In reply to ]
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reducing other slots either AG or lottery then it does not matter because those are not slots that would ever have been available for another athlete.

Personally I think that the lottery, the star slots, the CEO challenge and now this all fall in to the same boat and should not be offered at all but c'est la vie.
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I like the c'est la vie. I won't begrudge anyone who gets in, trains hard and finishes, whether they get in via the genetic lottery, $$, or any of the other ways. Just as long as they don't pretend they got in by qualifying if they didn't - then they'd be poseurs.
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [jasinsf] [ In reply to ]
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can you please direct me to a website for the "genetic lottery" .. can one still enter ex post birtho?? what a great year 03' would be if i could train in the genetic pool, then race in kona...

alright alright!! but i AM still going to sign up for one of the above lotteries... (and then marry properly so my progeny wont need either of the above lotteries)



chris
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Whole-heartedly agree [ In reply to ]
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If WTC is going to offer race slots at its "World Championships" to anyone other than those who qualify for the race, then I would rather see all such slots be auctioned. To get a lottery slot you need money and luck. To get an auctioned slot, you need money. Why do we care about preserving the luck element? I don't. Lets make people who simply want to buy their way into the race pay the going rate, whatever that may be.

As for the issue of income disparity; I can't say I feel much sympathy for the economic plight of anyone participating in this sport. This is a rich man's/woman's sport. Whoever ends up in Hawaii has more diposable income than the vast majority of the world, so fretting over which wealthy people go and which stay home seems a bit silly.

Lastly, I like the idea of establishing a charity, setting up a means of monitoring contributions to that charity over a one-year period (probably beginning and ending in the the Spring), and awarding slots based on those contributions, subject to a minimum. There could be an exchange rate between dollars and hours (say, $20/hour) so that you could equate people who gave money with people who gave time.
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [chrisli] [ In reply to ]
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Hey I wish I knew the magic website.

BTW I'm in for the lottery again, but also training hard, losing more weight and doing a couple of qualifiers.

If I got in via the lottery, I'd train even harder, have a great time in Hawaii, and happily tell anyone and everyone that I got lucky and got in thru the lottery. That's what it's there for.
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Everyone is missing the point / plot [ In reply to ]
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The WTC is not saying there are 200 lottery slots in stead of AG slots or that these auctioned slots are instead of AG slots or that the CEO Challenge (Joke) is instead of AG slots these are in addition to and if they chose not to offer them there would be no other slots.

Therefore if people want to pony up the dough, run a company or are just plain lucky and want to tell people that they went to the WC then thats all fine. They are no different than the people that work for John Hnacock and tell people that they run the Boston marathon.........
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Re: But at the end of the day IF they are not [jasinsf] [ In reply to ]
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I don't like a lot of the things the i dot machine is doing. It's all about money. Their are other iron distance races that all the money goes to charity. They put on a good race but so do others.

Dirtball
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [garth] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
As for the issue of income disparity; I can't say I feel much sympathy for the economic plight of anyone participating in this sport. This is a rich man's/woman's sport. Whoever ends up in Hawaii has more diposable income than the vast majority of the world, so fretting over which wealthy people go and which stay home seems a bit silly. -------------------------
You live in a surreal world then. There are quite a few triathletes, just in NorCal, who train and race and don't make $*it loads of money or have the discretionary income to go to Kona every year, even if they did qualify. We won't even go into non-US triathletes who can't afford the trip and the "World Championship" title. And, it seems other races are picking up the IMNA/WTC "buy your way in". I got this email this morning: YOU CAN STILL GET IN TO [name of race that sells out really quickly] IF YOU DONATE 500.00 DOLLARS & RACE APPLICATION FEE TO RACE DIRECTORS FAVORITE CHARITY BUT DON'T TELL ANYONE I TOLD YOU ABOUT THIS.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
Last edited by: ironclm: Feb 14, 03 11:55
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Re: Auction better/same as lottery [tom] [ In reply to ]
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So which is?

>>The people who win the lottery are undeserving of their slot in the fact that they got their slot for no reason<<

or

>>This is not a value judgement of lottery winners<<

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: which is it [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Please refer back to the entire paragraph (remember I asked you to bear with me)

I'm intending to say much the same as another poster did later. Lottery winners got lucky i.e. they don't deserve the slot because it was given analagous to a gift. By definition a gift is unearned. If you did something for it, then it is compensation, not a gift, and has been earned.

I'm not making a value judgement that lottery winners should not accept the gift or that they are compromised in some way. I'm simply making the statement that if someone receives a slot as a gift then it is unearned.
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Shouldn't one qualify for a world championship? I feel both lottery and auction are wrong for a world championship. If a participant can buy their way in, then is it really a gathering of the best in the world? Granted, those who don't qualify are probably 99.9% out of the running for a podium spot, it still kind of dilutes the prestige of the event for me.
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Re: Comments? [jima] [ In reply to ]
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Well unfortunately you didn't start Ironman 25 years ago or you could have removed the idea of having a spot for the "ordinary man/woman".
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Re: Comments? [jima] [ In reply to ]
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The original owner of the IM race put a clause into the contract that there be a manner for extras to get in to the race. As you can see, I'm fuzzy on the details but the short of it is that there must always be civilians in the race.
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Re: Comments? [tom] [ In reply to ]
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was the original billed as "world championship"? I don't know. But there are plenty of ironman length races out there available to us mortals.
To me, when something is billed as world championship, I feel the athletes should be invited or qualify to go.
I would love to go Hawaii, but I am a MOP'er at best, and I don't think I want to lottery or bid to get in. I want to earn my spot. Who knows, maybe that will change.
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Re: Comments? [tom] [ In reply to ]
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hey, didn't channe mcrae get in last year?? i bet HE didn't do a IM qualifier ! and i bet giro or somebody paid, too !! evil ! wah ! end of civilization! etc !
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Re: Comments? [jima] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
was the original billed as "world championship"? I don't know.
Nope. A good history of the race is the book "Iron Will" by Mike Plant.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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i dot is is laughing all the way to the bank. More free advertising for the charity slots.

Slowtwitch bitchist place on planet earth
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Re: Comments? [jima] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose if it truly is the "World Championships" then they ought to eliminate all this age group nonsense & only let the very fastest go - the Olympics certainly don't have age groups.

An earlier post made the point that it is what it is. If someone doesn't think the lottery system is pure enough for them & doesn't want to go that route - cool. But the people running WTC set it up the way they see fit. If someone wants to set up their own race to be more elite or more charitable - go for it.
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Re: Comments? [tom] [ In reply to ]
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Well, I'm a latecomer to this particular discussion, but I have to ask this....how long have most of you been around Triathlon? I'm in a particularly pissy mood today so I'm going to risk pissing in a few peoples' wheaties on this one....If you haven't been around the sport since the 80s, then you really have no idea what you are talking about when you attack the lottery system. You are missing the big picture amid all your moaning about being able to make it to the sport's biggest day. By focusing on the name "world championship" you are missing what this race is in total. Unfortunately I'm at work or I'd pull together the history of the race in order to support the fact that you all are pissing up the wrong tree.

If we make IMH simply the "World Championships" and eliminate all but qualifiers as participating athletes it will become nothing but an elite race that has lost its connection to the greater triathlon world. This race was, is, and always will be a celebration of the sport. Call that fluff, call that idealism, call it whatever you want...but if you haven't been around then you probably don't understand the "magic" of this race. Its a lot more than a chance to "prove" that you are one of the best simply by being there.

Hell, the next thing we know someone will advocate draft-legal Ironman and we'll really go to hell in a handbasket!
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Depending on which part of the 80's you're [ In reply to ]
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talking about I could have been as young as 6 so no I have not really paid that much interest to it going back that far.

Personally I could not give a toss if the WTC auctioned off 50% of the slots to those with the dough to pay.

I dont think that their should be lottery slots, auctioned slots, slots for B rate actors and "stars" and I use both those terms verly loosely or this CEO challenge because we all know how much harder the CEO's work than their employee's and these slots would not in any way be used simply to make more revenue and MOP AG'ers feel better about themselves because they run companies. Hopefully Jeffrey Skilling will find employment and get to the show in October.

None of this bothers me, I could not give a toss if they add another 500 slots and charge 10k a piece for them.

At some point some bright spark is going to go to Roth, Ultramax, Nice, Cali Man, GFT and god knows how many other long course tri's there are and they are going to say look, we all should get together and offer these races as AG qualifiers for another race, one that is hopefully more centrally located like the south of France.

IMNA and the WTC are out to make Money, so are these other races, god bless them all but I'll be damned if I am going to continue to pony up the dough to subsidise or line the pockets of the owners.

It's a free country vote with your check book, it does not bother me that they offer these slots I'll simply not enter, ITU racing does not bother me, others enjoy it so have at it but dont bitch about this and at the same time continue to support it. You as consumers have choices and you can choose not to support an organization that is run this way.
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Re: Depending on which part of the 80's you're [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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whattup andrew, no MOO next year after all ??
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Actually given my free CDA slot, if I enter [ In reply to ]
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Moo I got 2 for the price of one and plus Mooooo is my exception to the rule, I dont want to do any of the other races in NA but would pay to do Mooo but not for what they offer but because I want to go back to the neighbourhood...................

Other than that if you dont like it, vote with your check book.
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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A very interesting thread you've started. It's interesting that you seem to take such offense to Tom's comment on 'income disparity'.

You seem to be sitting on a bit of podium, just before taking what little discretionary income you have and taking it with you to watch the Tour de France! (I dream)

To compare a weekend warrior triathlete doing sprints and oly's to IM athletes that train and commit to IM distance is impossible. The time commitment alone means you need to be financially set. Training 15+ hours per week, along with the food and nutrition that goes with it is expensive. Now lets talk pool/gym memberships, four seasons of running/cycling gear, bike.....did I say BIKE, hmmmm, how many running shoes do we each go through in a training season. How about massage therapy and physio (we all get injured sooner or later), and very few of us live 'next' to an IM race, so travel is a given. Entry fees.... and more!

No matter how you look at it, IM racing is damn expensive, no matter where it is.

It seems the good old USA has proven that Capitalism has proven more effective than Communism, so it seems that no matter what welfare state is contrived, we can't make everyone equal.

With this said, I'm not one to be jealous of what other people have, and even though I couldn't keep up with a Bill Gates in the shopping department (or just about anyone else for that matter) it doesn't mean I want someone to hand me that ability (but if your out there and want to, go ahead) on a silver platter!

Now that I'm starting to ramble, I just want to say....... what's up with the hate-on for the WTC? Because of them we have the OPPORTUNITY to do some great races, both well supported and well laid out races. If they CHOOSE to give away, sell, auction, or otherwise disburse slots, great for them, it's their race. Why bitch about it. And hey, whether it's corporate greed, or honest and caring philanthropy, some charity, hence someone less fortunate than yourself will benefit.

My take, if you don't want to watch porn or survivor, turn it off, if you don't want to race M-Dot, don't. Why whine to those of us that do?

Joe Hostyn (not afraid to post my name either)

Edmonton, Canada
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [joeh] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
A very interesting thread you've started. It's interesting that you seem to take such offense to Tom's comment on 'income disparity'.

You seem to be sitting on a bit of podium, just before taking what little discretionary income you have and taking it with you to watch the Tour de France! (I dream)

No matter how you look at it, IM racing is damn expensive, no matter where it is.

My take, if you don't want to watch porn or survivor, turn it off, if you don't want to race M-Dot, don't. Why whine to those of us that do?

Joe Hostyn (not afraid to post my name either)

Edmonton, Canada


Yeah, I have some discretionary income--no kids/no house payment, instead, my money goes towards travel (plus, I can combine work travel and racing, plus 6 weeks vacation/yr; yes, I know I am lucky). I also know some people who scramble to makes ends meet, work a lot of hours, don't make tons of money, but still are able to train for and race IM races. And, if slots came down to throwing in an extra $5,000-$10,000 for charity, neither I nor they would be able to do it. I also prefer to donate to the charities of MY choice in the manner ~I~ like.

As for racing M-dot...I only race IM NZ. Technically it is an M-dot, but at least it doesn't have that M-dot money-hungry feeling. And yes, I've raced Vineman and Ultramax and aside from NZ (which is more the country than the actual race), they were a lot more fun than any IMNA event I've attended.

As for whining....I don't think I've ever whined in my life.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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Personally I don't think it matters

I'm not rich enough to buy a place - not good enough to qualify. I did my Ironman (distance) at a small event - 50 competitors - a couple of years ago. It was not Kona - but who cares? to me it was still an ironman and I am still proud to have completed the event. Now I am busy at work and with a young family - I would like to do another Ironman but no time soon. I would like to have gone to Kona - but years ago when the spirit of the event was still true. Kona is not the event it was 20 years ago and never will go back to being that. Nostalga is nice but things change.

Triathlon and Ironman need to move on from the early days and rediscvouver themselves in the 21st centuary. Maybe one practical idea is to run Kona over 3 or 4 days with different age groups competing on differnt days? Thus keeping the Worlds but allowing mass participation?

In the end just do the races you want, enjoy them and don't worrry.

|tim
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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......"that M-dot money-hungry feeling"............

oooooooohhkay. perception is a wonderful thing, and in my experience you find what you look for ( if not reap what you sow ). in my case i went to the evil IMNA IMMOO race looking for adventure, freinds, excitement, challenge, color, pain, inspiration, competition, personal boundary exploration, glamor, organization, sprarkling comaraderie, and to race. that is what i found. i happily paid a dollar a day for a year for these things, and nobody appeared hungry for more to me.

hey lookee there - an updated profile !
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [t-t-n] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Tim,

;-)

I've heard Moo was a really great time. But, it's in Wisconsin (go Packers!). Maybe someday, but I think I'd rather use my travel funds to go to NZ (again and again), Brazil, France, etc. But, if the majority of my tri buds were going, then I'd definitely reconsider.

Out of here...101 work hours for the month is too many. Have a great weekend all.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: Whole-heartedly agree [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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alrighty then, cathy. even i won't argue ( believe it or not ) with a trip to NZ over wisconsin. rock on.
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No but I'd point out to any foreigner [ In reply to ]
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that if they were in Europe and looking for a tri abroad that they could do far worse than Moooooooo and I might know a little about being a foreigner :-)

That said I'd like to do NZ or OZ next year, so many things I'd like to do, so little time.
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Re: Comments? [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder how long till they start showing up on ebay.

I don't work here, I just live here
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