I wonder if he will run/swim after any of the stages.

 Wonder that too. If tactics dictate that he sits in the pack all day that’s not much of a workout. I remember Froome getting through some to tour stages on 185 W average power.

I also wonder if they will let him go 100% in the time trial, because there’s no reason for the team for him to do that.

Well, what's the roll? Bottles or support for other riders? Really depends on that.

The person sitting in is the team leader/chosen one for the OA win.

The TT is on the last day, so who knows. But he could very well realize that the last day is "only" 20k and do a bunch of training before/after so I wouldn't expect a great time, he'll be tired either way from doing his job. His role is to support whoever is the leader, and with Thomas and Kwiatkowski they have the winners of 4 of the last 6-7 years. So very likely some riding at the front if there are breakaways and getting bottles if not. He can't risk doing other sports if there are still stages ahead where the team expects him to support.

ETA: despite all that, it would be awesome if his task was to get in a break, and with some luck try for a win. But he'd need to have improved a bit since the first race to achieve that.

Ridiculous!!!

😡



You do NOT swim after biking

I was thinking the same if he will make any a brick session like the Cadel Evans race. I'm pretty sure his priority will be to ensure he gets through the race...

I dont see him doing anything outside the race, until the last day is over. He has a job to do, and running a 10k after a days stage, just makes his less effective for that job. Unless the team just doesnt care, but I suspect he is considered a team member, so has to act accordingly. And taking 4 days off running and swimming is no big deal this time of year, and a race like this can really help cement his cycling to where it was a couple years ago..

And if the tt is the last day, why would they not let him fly, stupid question..

Yeah, I was being a bit tongue in cheek. You would think that Ineos would expect him to have a few days off swim/run & focus on the race.
This is where I am not sure that serving two masters is a good thing, but that's just my opinion.

His priority will be to protect Thomas and Kwiatkowski's GC ambitious, which will likely mean spending a lot of time on front helping control break.

His coach is the Enios coach so I am sure there is a master plan. He is just a domestique so I am sure in between these races he is getting in plenty of swimming and running. Not a bad five day bike block ending with a TT.

Wish Wurf the best. This is great for the sport of triathlon. Top triathletes that could compete professionally with cyclists, swimmers or runners would be much admired.

Wurf is probably the highest placed triathlete competing at a high professional level in cycling.

Is there anyone like that running?

Do we have anyone like that in swimming?

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

Is there anyone like that running?

Do we have anyone like that in swimming? //

We have had many, many crossover athletes from swimming and running, and from a much higher level that Wurf is racing now(low level journeyman domestic) But most of those were in different time frames, so that makes his a little bit more special. But for a guy like Alex Yee running 27 high 10k, it would be in the ballpark of what Wurf is doing in cycling, maybe even better.(highly debatable and unknowable really) We have had olympic swimmers as triathletes and do very well, certainly a much higher level that a domestic in cycling.


Seems like if we have any folks doing two sports at a high level, it would be folks in the ITU ranks right now. OF course there was the ultimate he who should not be named, pretty hard to beat those stats.

Being Australian, coming from a cycling background and watching Wurf racing teams at one of my early 70.3 races tear the bike course apart just after leaving Cannondale I'm a huge fanboy.

I think running and swimming is a lot harder as they don't have domestiques like cycling and you have to be totally dedicated to one sport. The only real recent comparison I can think to follow produced from triathlon is Gwen Jorgensen.

1st stage: Lost 4.m45s. Position 139 out of 172. The first 96 guys arrived in the big bunch .....

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Spaniard. Sorry for my english for the sensitive ones :P

Today 147th, in the sprinter's group 21 minutes down. And not because he was working. DQS was doing the work (and winning the stage).

So far he appears to be exactly the same cyclist he was when he retired from pro cycling. Which is to say lower-tier domestique.

Or maybe he's just saving up for an amazing day in the break.

Ineos did their share of work into the base of the climb. He probably pulled earlier and therefore didn't need to push it up the climb - save the legs for more days of domestique duty. He is likely on the low end of the domestique's on his team, but he is on arguably one of the most talented teams in the professional peloton. His finish times are irrelevant as long as he makes the cut off. I would imagine he is doing exactly what is being asked of him.

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

He'd be the only Ineos rider doing their job at that race, then. Somehow their GC rider ended up 12 minutes down, and their sprinter paced Geraint Thomas into 20th. At least Kwiat is sort of in a decent position (14th).

Evenepoel is killing it.

How much talent can you have :-)

a few years ago he was a soccer player

Not really surprised by G's performance. He showed last year he knows how to peak for the only race he cares about which for him will be later in the year. Was a bit surprised they didn't have anyone up a little closer fighting for it, however most of their leaders there are targeting races later and perhaps can't be on flying form all year long like some of the young guns.

Remco shows up to race. With the final time trial in this race, he really only needs to follow wheels - however as he showed in Argentina, that is not his style. He wants to race.

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"It's good enough for who it's for" - Grandpa Wayne

On sunday a 20km Time Trail ... will CW arrive near Remco Evenepoel?

Lol. We should guess how far down Cam comes. Cam is a wonderful sportman, but he is at least 1 minute down. Actually 2.

Did anyone else see that the Volta ao Algarve official site has .GPX files available for the courses? That is cool.

No.

He does crack me up at times. Saw this on IG and the response from Luke Rowe regarding Evenpoel was great! https://www.instagram.com/p/B8zJgYcBRVM/

Another solid day; Strava makes for pretty interesting reading, particularly the power fluctuations.

Cycling file from last night

As a comparison - file from IM Italy:

Not solid in terms of helping the team get a result. Ben Swift was left all one when it mattered.

He was a low level domestique, so I wonder how much better he will be second time around. He "only' lost 7 minutes today though, so gives the impression that he is getting better.

Looking forward to see how he does against the clock tomorrow, I predict him top 20-30. That Remco kid is an absolute beast, just ridiculous considering he is only 20, really talented.

There's some doozie comments in there including Motogp rider Cal Crutchlow ‘Wonder how these lot will feel after running back to hotel … ’

You don't like him much, eh

It’s not Wurf’s job to get deep into the final on a stage like today in the Algarve. Both Thomas and Kwiato were there in the final before fading - should they take more heat as leaders than the domestique whose job it is to ride early in the stage?

Bike racing is a team sport, and Wurf is a helper. He does his job and then throws our the anchor, period. How far back he finishes is entirely irrelevant so long as he makes the time cut. So thinking he’s improving based on finish position or will be even remotely competitive with Remco tomorrow is to not understand how cycling works.

I'm openly biased. Had a negative personal experience with him (Liquigas era). Screamed aggressively at a friend of mine, bizarrely. I'm loyal to my friends. Otherwise he'd probably be my hero since I'm an (amateur hack level) rower-triathlete-cyclist.

Yeah man. I don't know how cycling works, you're right.

It’s a general comment directed at various posters in this thread, don’t get your panties in a twist.

Oh you're absolutely right. I have no idea what Ineos is doing in this thing, not looking competent in GC, sprints, or stage wins. Domestiques get awards when the team does well. :)

They may have a chance at some redemption tomorrow. Because even though early season, Thomas and Dennis *should* be able to compete in TT.

Enios probably have the luxury of not needing endless wins to keep their sponsors happy. I would bet they are getting their key riders fit for the more prestigious races of the season. That being said I'm looking forward to Dennis and Evenepoel going head to head.

Evenpoel is the whole package!

Interview with Wurf from Cyclingnews: https://www.cyclingnews.com/...ton-with-team-ineos/

What I get from that interview is that Evenpoel needs to do a bit of swimming!

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Casual 1:16 half-marathon shows what kind of engine he has.

Well after a 5 day stage race including a mid pack TT effort he strolls back to the hotel running a sub 4m/k half marathon.

https://www.strava.com/activities/3125732401

This is more impressive than his 73rd place finish 2:25 off Evenpoel. Looks like a ~380w effort for 26:30, which is fairly pedestrian for pro cyclists. Wonder if Lionel could have beat that...

His max HR during the TT was 168, during IM Italy it was 166 and in the stages he got to 180+ on most stages, I think it's save to say he didn't go all out on the TT, and why would he? He won't be able to win, he doesn't care about his ranking and it wouldn't help his team.

I would be surprised if Ineos allowed him to go all out in the TT. I don't think they have hired him to get results but to work for the team on the front of the peloton. Domestiques usually treat TT days as recovery days and do just enough to get inside the time limit so they can go back to working the next day.

Anyone know when his next race with Ineos is?

It does seem like a brick workout. TT @ low treshold and a 21.1 k ROTB at IM race pace. Makes sense, he did not stand a chance in TT against top guys, so make it a brick day. Clever.

On a separate note, Remco is in a league of his own. Lefevre commented that he could still lose a few pounds, the guy is already 5'7" and ~135 pounds, it would be scary how much faster he could still go uphill with a few pounds less assuming he keeps his power.

... he will during his next workout.

Not to mention another season or two to hone his race craft and tactical nous. It's easy to forget how inexperienced he is. To date he has only raced a bike for 70 race days as a professional.

The TT was the final stage. So his domestique duties were over. Ineos probably didn’t care about his result, so he took it a bit easier and then did the brick for a solid overall day

He would’ve had no incentive outside of tri training to hold back to protect G/Dennis

May be 'pedestrian' for a pro cyclist, but for a triathlete who does ~60% of a pro cyclist's volume, it's reasonably solid.

Putting aside my "hater" hat for minute, I think it's very solid. Wurf, for his entire cycling career has seemed be be about a 380W FTP type of guy who does well at steady-state efforts, but struggles with attacks. No pejorative there. Just what his physiology seems to be. Which is great for a triathlete, and good for a pro domestique. To be able to maintain the high level of cycling while still training as a triathlete is impressive (though it's still to be seen what cost/benefit his Ineos venture will have to him as a triathlete).

A 380W FTP is really the low end for a pro cyclist and domestique, especially for someone of his size. As far as impact on triathlon is concerned- when you go to a stage race you don't get to pick and choose your hotel so it has an olympic pool nearby where you can swim. Plus, there often won't be enough time in the day to sneak in a run either (and you'll be of limited value to the team if you do). He may have been able to squeeze in a run on the last day of the race but that's mainly because it was the last day of the race, it was a short TT, he didn't have to hurry to catch a flight, etc. Overall, racing with the pros is gonna really limit his ability to swim and run so expect he'll really struggle in Kona on the run.

His focus is Kona which he has already qualified for and Enios need man power to fill all spots and cover all races at this time of the season. It is a long way off so don't see his Kona being compromised.

Really? I'll bring facts to this conversation, rather than just making up rubbish.

Jack Haig won this stage. https://www.cyclingnews.com/...020/stage-4/results/

His data shows his average power was 311watts

https://www.strava.com/activities/3122428248

If this site had the ability to mute someone, I'd mute you. You have ZERO idea about pro cyclists

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What are your facts supposed to show? His NP was 311 and his average HR was 139. Please don't tell me you fell for the 311 being 84% of his FTP and his FTP therefore being 370W, right?

And last year I won a bike race with an NP of 398 with the last 4 minutes averaging around 500W (breakaway and I dropped my breakaway companions with about 3km to go), does that make me good enough to be a domestique?

(And I'm pretty sure you're underestimating the number of files I may have seen on trainingpeaks from Worldtour pros that aren't on Strava, as they train and race throughout the season including prep for the Tour and the Tour itself). But carry on.

No it suggests your power meter is broken.

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Exactly, that's why I suggested his FTP would be around 380W.

Cadel won the TdF with an FTP of ~~ 370-380. Wurf would be 3-4 kgs above Cadel you'd think.

If you read what he wrote about his first race back, he said that he thought lactate was coming out of his eyeballs.

Not nearly enough to hang with Benv.

haha

Benv could beat Jan. Just ask him

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And again. More pro data. From trek.

Still not 380 you claim. But, you clearly know what you are talking about. NOT

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A random snapshot of less than 2 minutes in a race. How does this say anything about someone’s FTP? You can call me stupid all you want but what you claim to be data says nothing to support your argument.

"A 380W FTP is really the low end for a pro cyclist and domestique, especially for someone of his size."

Clearly, no true.

Alex Dowsett (ex Hour Record owner, TT specialist) with similar height and weight is around 400w FTP at his best.
Tony Martin is also around this 400w FTP figure, as most "top heavy workhorse".
So 380w FTP is good, at his weight, not low end. And very good for a domestique.


Plus, FTP is only a point in the curve, and clearly Cam Wurf is recruited to work below this point (2 hour perf, 3 hour perf), which is logical, as a long distance triathlete with a low VLaMax, and a flat power curve. His 3 hour perf is probably very good in the peloton.

So, he is probably very good at his job.
Make sense, being recruited by one of the most demanding team to replace..... old Vasil K.... a top heavy workhorse, known for his long range peloton crushing capabilities.

Tony Martin in his hey day was well over 400W.

The higher FTP figure I heard about was Wiggins, at 430/440 w, when he was around 82/85 kg, aiming at TT worlds and HR.

So, around 5.3 w/kg FTP (bringing him back around 400 w at 75kg).
Maybe his ratio was higher when going for TdF (around 70kg).

Wow! I guess that is more than enough to be a domestique. That are impressive numbers. Or was this a 5 minute race?

  

you are wrong, your agenda is weird, and you don't seem to realize you are arguing with someone who knows quite a lot about pros and how they train.

that said, obviously weight matters here. and obviously benv didn't a) tell us his weight b) didn't tell us his ftp was 398.

Unless he has raced at professional levels like me, I’m not buying what he’s selling.

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No need to get so aggressive, and in fact, you are the one that needs to get your math right. Haig averaged 311 for the WHOLE ~170 k stage, instead of 388 for a 20 k time trial. @72-75 kg that is ~5.4 w/kg, good for a pro cyclist, but nowhere near the w/kg required to wear yellow or pink. A top pro like Uran, averaged 6.1 w/kg at one of the tour time trials when he was fighting for second, just a random example.

I understand the IM crowds worship Wurf, and he is an excellent athlete, but as far as pro tour cyclist, he is maybe average.

Do you think it is fair to compare the w/kg of a 62kg climber (Uran) with the w/kg of a rouleur ?

The initial sentence creating the reaction was "380w FTP for his weight is low for domestique".

Wich is not true.

Bringing comparison with a top climber (Uran) just show you and the OG do not have any data to defend your point of view.... and then you try to cover this bringing other data to the table... from top climber....

Bring us some data from 73/75 kg domestique rouleur to defend your point, and then will will discuss seriously.

Don't get defensive, but you don't really understand the concept, this isn't opinions is just facts and physics...6 w/kg..is 6 w/kg, regardless of the rider weight. Hence why Coggan published his tables with w/kg instead of power itself, 300 w is good for a 60 kg guy, but not that good an 80 kg guy. Yes, there are slight differences in flat terrain with cda, etc. but generally a 6 w/kg rider is a lot better than a 5.5 w/kg regardless of the weight. Look at Remco's numbers..he is 61 kg, his w/kg is just higher than anyone else hence why he is dominating the pro peloton in TTs or climbs. So yeah, 5.3 w/kg is really no that impressive for a pro tour rider regardless of weight...and on the same day the winner was around 6.2 w/kg @ 61 kg and 2:30 min faster. I really can't explain it easier for you..

Bring you data? dude, the internet is full of this data..just Google it, Training Peaks publishes a lot of power profiles from multiple tdf stages from different riders including the winners, Remco's numbers are on Strava. Not my job to educate anyone over the internet. This is really basic stuff.

You are defensive, and you are aggressive, because you cannot prove your point. Because you are wrong.

I know Coggan tables for years.
I know data of many cyclist for years.

Can you bring the data of a 73/75 kg domestique to the table ? To compare with Wurf ?

Apparantly you can't.

So... bla bla Uran..... bla bla Remco....

I hope you realize that if w/kg was the only useful data, all team would use Colombian climbers to drag the peloton on flat races, and Flanders classics...

LOL

You are clearly a specialist

All I said is that, 5.2 w/kg isn't that impressive for a pro tour cyclist on a 20 min effort. There are plenty of pro cyclists hitting those numbers. If you want to think that 5.2 for a 75 kg rider is more impressive than 6.2 w/kg for a 60 kg...I really don't know what else to say.

Where did you find Remco his numbers? He hasn't been uploading on Strava since his junior days.

Do yourself a favor :

1) calculate FTP in w/kg for :
Bradley Wiggins during his HR and TT World Title
Peter Sagan when he was multiple world champ

2) realize these W/kg are not as good as an average light climber. Still, good enough to be world champs and winning a lot.

3) understand w/kg is not the only benchmark in cycling. It is significant if you are searching a climber, or if compare riders with equivalent weight. But cycling is a bit more subtle than that. Wiggins increasing its weight to 80kg+ and reducing its w/kg to increase its w/CdA is a good exemple.

4) finally, understand you compared apples and oranges

I'm still waiting for a valid data comparaison for a 73/74 kg rouleur domestique.

Still pretty handy if you are 95kgs tho and riding Roubaix or trying to break the hr record or pretty much any Non mountain TT course. Magnus Bäckstedt springs to mind. He did ok.

Very few have W/k much over 6 for their FTP. And any that do are either very very light <64kgs or just very special. Froome/Evenapoel etc.

How about some data for a domestique like Stijn Vandenbergh (185lbs), Tim Declerq (172 lbs) or Iljo Keisse (159 lbs)?

Because buzz has a point - I did not specify the duration of the race (and therefore how that would correlate to ftp) nor weight. And you didn't ask for it either, you just went by the number without considering the context and decided it was enough for you to consider it a lie, which really only showed you're not understanding how ftp works yourself.

Conor Dunne held 440w watts for something like 45mins for sh!ts and giggles in a GCN video showing the difference between a decent recreational rider and a pro.

Dunne is meant to be around 86kg, which makes 440W about 5.1W/kg for him. If you watch the video, Dunne also did this wearing a costume and looks like he was bored (or happy to have made the video's point) when he stepped off the bike, not worn out. FWIW 5.3W/Kg FTP is typical for a continental (Div 3) rider, unless you have a seriously good sprint.

Come on now. If you start throwing around your own frontdoor-bragging Internet Watts and irrelevant blow-by-blow recap of How The Race Was Won like that in a thread about Wurf, Evans, Remco, Wiggins, et al, with no context and your name is not immediately recognizable as a pro, you deserve good-natured ribbing at the *least*. :)

I believe you. Still gonna roast you over it.

Yeh and he's also 14 feet tall and probably has a blood volume of about 16 litres. Kind of helps that doesn't it!! And I'm not convinced he's only 86kgs either, maybe at the end of a 3 week stage race.

Dunne is 204cm

Exactly, that's what I said, 14 feet tall!