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Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer"
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And we wonder why the swim portion of many triathlons are cancelled.

I do not understand why Ironman with their rolling starts do not require a participant to verify that they can actually swim a certain time just like most major marathons require participants to prove that they ran a certain time and are seeded accordingly. Each wave would have a separte colored swim cap to identify what wave they are actually in. Not only would this be a safety feature for race organizers as they would be able to concentrate on those waves with less capable swimmers it would also insure the compentent swimmers do not have to swim over, through, around slower swimmers who accidently or intentionally seed themselves incorrectly.

I have also heard some participants purposely start in a slower swim wave at rolling starts as they believe the time they lose in the swim due to having to swim through slower swimmers is more than made up by having the slingshot affect of being able to "legally" draft through the masses and as a result having a faster bike time with a lot less effort.


Is triathlon going soft?
Criticising safety-first policies may not be popular, but increasingly foreshortened events are starting to erode entrantsā€™ faith, argues Tim Heming
Posted: 27 September 2019by Tim Heming
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Ironman CEO Andrew Messick is categorical: ā€œThe race course has to be safe for everybody, not just people who are young and strong.ā€ Ironman has its critics on many issues, but Messick knows this stance cannot easily be challenged. Whether itā€™s rough seas, blue-green algae, cold water, hot weather, flooding, landslides, bush fires or sharks, you name it, weā€™ve had it in triathlon in the past few years.
Nobody wants to see a sporting event end in tragedy, but neither do triathletes want to spend hundreds of pounds on a race and have part or all of it cancelled, as has been happening with increasing frequency. It canā€™t all be blamed on Mother Nature either. The climate might be changing, but so are attitudes to risk ā€“ predicated on an increasing blame culture ā€“ that means erring on the side of caution like never before. Competitors often sacrifice their entry fees due to hardline ā€˜no refundā€™ policies because organisersā€™ costs are already sunk, and everyone is left feeling compromised and underwhelmed.
There is a paradox here, though. Ironman is billed as the hardest one-day event on the planet, yet its owners preside over a finance-driven model which demands as many bodies on the start-line as possible, regardless of athletic competence.
The aspirational marketing that claims ā€˜Anything Is Possibleā€™ for anyone has a flipside ā€“ it downplays the challenge. Not in the surface level hype or in the small print of the disclaimers, but in decisions on race day, where the novice who might rarely leave the pool, now encounters the swell of a sea swim, and the race director isnā€™t confident to proceed.
Ironman is a very different beast to parkrun, for example, that happily celebrates its average times getting slower because it encourages mass participation. A 3.8km swim, 180km bike and 42.2km run puts a severe load on anyoneā€™s body, but the achievement of completing it has been normalised in recent years. Itā€™s no longer the preserve of the quirky few with years of endurance sport experience and the resilience to cope with inclement conditions. Too many of us now turn up wide-eyed and underprepared. Even if organisers donā€™t encourage it, they have to cater for it, so when thereā€™s a large show of hands at the start of an iron-distance race from those admitting itā€™s their first triathlon, there should be concern not applause.
Whether an example of societyā€™s increasing need for quick gratification or not, we should question the impulse to go longer and harder at the earliest opportunity. Perceptions have become skewed. After all, a sprint triathlon is an oxymoron. Itā€™s not a 100-yard dash but a solid test of aerobic capacity and a great way of racing more frequently, mastering skills and building an endurance base.
And if more of us concentrate on strengthening these foundations, then when it comes to eventually going long, it will also help instil confidence in event organisers that their triathletes are conditioned to race in testing conditions. The
result? Everybody benefits.

Wetsuits: Creating the artificial swimmer? by 1 September 16, 2013

'Is a wearing a wetsuit cheating?' This is a question that we are sure many of you have thought about at least once so we have decided to open a debate. Richard from Train2Swim has kindly given us his views below - What do you think? Do you agree? Please tell us by commenting the post!


ā€œI felt I was swimming like a duckā€ - This was how I felt the first time I donned a wetsuit designed for competitive open water swimming!


I come from a competitive swimming background where I performed at a national level, so buoyancy for me has never been an issue in the water. But when it comes down to temperatures below 18 degrees I become a shivering wreck, so I bite the bullet and wear a wetsuit just to keep me warm.
When I first wore a wetsuit it shot me back to the days when they first introduced the fastskin suits to pool swimming, all manner of records were being broken from club to international and it all seemed to be down to the skin you wore on your skin. Initially this was great especially for those who could afford the hefty price tag but very quickly (even at the age of 14) I realised that these suits were starting to tarnish everything that I loved about my sport of swimming. The swimming mind set was changing from ā€œhow can I tweak my training and stroke to improve my performanceā€ to ā€œhow can we improve the equipment we wear to make it easier for swimmersā€.
For me any competitive sport is about what YOU can achieve through hard work and dedication, it teaches you that there are no shortcuts to your best performance and when you achieve your genetic potential you experience possibly one of the greatest indescribable mix of emotions,.
So even though everyone was still wearing the skins I resorted back to my trusty pair of speedoā€™s, I didnā€™t want to break records because of a suit I wanted to break records because of my own hard work.
Much to my surprise the suits were banned not long after the Olympic games the reason was the controversy caused by the large number of world records that were broken by competitors wearing polyurethane swimsuits, the next generation of the original fast skin suits. These suits were deemed to be providing an artificial advantage by increasing buoyancy and reducing drag.
So the question I ask is why are wetsuits in competitive open water or triathlon continuing to move to a point where they do the swimming for you? I can understand that from a safety point of view wetsuits give that peace of mind to any event organiser or governing body but when does it get to a point that the buoyancy in a wetsuit is cheating?
I heard a competitor at an event not so long ago state that wetsuits even the playing field in triathlon as swimming is the weakest event for the majority of athletes! When has competitive sport ever been about evening up the playing field!?
Other competitors have stated that learning to swim with the legs raised is too difficult (As a swim coach I can assure you that with the right instruction this isnā€™t a difficult thing to achieve) but do not fear the wetsuit company has designed a suit with extra buoyancy in the legs to tackle this issue.
For me designing products that do the work for you is no different than blood doping, it sends out the message that you donā€™t have to correct that kick because we can do it for you! Where is the sense of achievement in that?
At any high level event I do strongly believe that the use of wetsuits that give an unnatural advantage should be banned, this is what will ā€œEven the playing fieldā€ and reveal our true champions.
For those starting out, using a wetsuit with a lot of buoyancy is a great way to make your first open water swim enjoyable and stress free but donā€™t let it become the solution to the problem. Everyone can achieve a great swim with the right training and believe you me no matter whether you are competing in the Olympics games or at a club tri doing it and finishing it knowing that you put the hard work and effort into correcting your faults will give you a greater sense of achievement than knowing that your wetsuit did it for you.
Richard Watts
Owner train2tri/train2swim
http://www.train2swim.com



Last edited by: 2brokenhips: Oct 15, 19 5:50
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Really hard post to read. If someone else wrote something, just link to it instead of pasting the entire thing in.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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As for the "safe event" article... no kidding? You can't have much of an event, with the goal of making money, that isn't going to check the "safety first" box. You don't have pros without money, so that kind of ends the discussion assuming you want a championship at the end. The 'extreme' tris have popped up to cater to the hardcore clientele. Ironman is not that.

I do agree more people should participate in sprints (and olys for that matter) for plenty of reasons, but it seems most look at a triathlon as a massive event that must be an ultimate test. Even experienced triathletes look to "move up" to longer and longer distances as though it is the natural progression to prove yourself to your peers (and impress non-participants). It's the endurance way. Go longer, not faster.

To the swimming article... to my knowledge no one has legitimately claimed that the point of wetsuits is to level the playing field. Does it have that effect? Maybe (probably not really), but it's not the point. And I'd argue that no one is winning as a crappy swimmer because they donned a wetsuit.

I find it ridiculous that anyone can get this worked up about wetsuits, and completely ignore the bikes. I've been saying for a while now that triathlon would do itself a favor by standardizing the bikes, even if it's only enforced at the pro level. You can buy a lot more time on the bike than in the water.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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I love those anti-wetsuit articles. Technology advances are fine for cycling and running, but swim in a Speedo. If that's your perspective, go back to Merckx rules on the bike with a hairnet for a helmet and run barefoot.
Last edited by: offpiste.reese: Oct 15, 19 7:18
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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2brokenhips wrote:
I do not understand why Ironman with their rolling starts do not require a participant to verify that they can actually swim a certain time just like most major marathons require participants to prove that they ran a certain time and are seeded accordingly.

Outside of Boston, very few marathons REQUIRE or verify times for seeding, especially the largest ones. you just enter your estimated time.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
2brokenhips wrote:
I do not understand why Ironman with their rolling starts do not require a participant to verify that they can actually swim a certain time just like most major marathons require participants to prove that they ran a certain time and are seeded accordingly.


Outside of Boston, very few marathons REQUIRE or verify times for seeding, especially the largest ones. you just enter your estimated time.

to verify they could swim a certain time, then that would mean IM would require participants to have completed a prior swim event or triathlon (of what distance???). I don't believe that was a requirement even at IM peak participation. I guess I have yet to do an IM event where I was severely impacted by somebody slower than myself who I had to swim around or over. Sure it's happened but it's not like it's a big part of my swims. But maybe as a MOP swimmer I'm not running into that scenario as much.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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As for the rest of this jumbled post

1) Slingshot effect, this may be my n=1 but I have heard many similar stories. I got extremely cold at the Indian Wells 70.3 last year and spent 14 minutes in T1 after a slow swim so I had to ride through crowds to T2. I put out maybe 250 NP which was higher than normal but with that dead flat course it only tuned out to be good for 2:25. Without getting into my position and all other things to compare, I rode 2:24 on a much more hilly course on 245 NP earlier this year. Rather than enjoying the slingshot effect, I found myself constantly turning my head to swing left and right, having to break when coming up on other riders swinging out from their own slingshot, having carefully ride left (sometimes going over center line) when passing the inevitable BOP draft packs, and not being able to take the best lines on turns because of the crowds. I certainly lost more time than I could have gained by slingshot and it wasn't even possible most of the time because when someone is on their way to a 3 hour bike split and you are going sub-2:30, you can only get that slingshot for 1-2 seconds before flying by other riders and that is assuming that rider is alone such that you can do that. They aren't. You find yourself riding into the wind on the left side of the road because the stream of riders is too constant for that.

2) As someone alluded to before, if you want hard swims, go to extreme triathlons. Ironman is a business and they're going to keep doing what they do as long as people pay for it. While I think there are a few swims that should not be shortened or cancelled, I do think the large majority of cancelled swims are for good and uncontrollable reasons. That is just a fact of life for swimming in open water. Even extreme triathlon swims will get cancelled in the event of thunderstorms and algae blooms.

3) Wetsuits are not cheating. Go hook up with Synthetic and have fun talking about wetsuits and vaporfly and let me know when you do a triathlon in 58 degree water in a speedo (and don't wear goggles for god's sake, that would be technology!) riding a penny farthing and running barefoot. What can and should be discussed are the temperature limits of wearing a wetsuit and the ridiculous rule of "wetsuit optional" Wetsuits should either be allowed or banned for all but the oldest participants.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Virtually no marathons require you to put up papers to go in a particular pace start.

That swim article was written in 2013 I believe, since then FINA is allowing pro OW swimmers to wear wetsuits in some conditions.

And I'm pretty sure they still have to swim to win the race, I have yet to see the wetsuit that swims for you..

And I love how the author put one on because it was cold to him, but that is ok because it was cold. Well guess what, there are people that call bullshit on that, they swim in 50 or below temps with just a speedo. And on the other end, there are people that get cold when it is 85+, cold is a relative thing. But hey, lets go ahead and use your personal temp to set the standards..
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.


I think the problem is, by using the "worst" simmers as their gauge what they actual do to make it *legit* cancellation by using a "safety" concern...."Oh well we cant get the lifeguards out there" so the swim is cancelled. They can't handle the 1' chop out there, so swim cancelled. "the coast guard cancelled, dont complain to me, they cancelled it", etc etc.

Cus they aren't going to have a swim without safety personal out there. That is just a liability lawsuit waiting to happen. And that's sorta the imo sneaky little thing that means there is no push back....."You can't complain if the safety personal can't get in the water".....It's why you can say they are thinking of the "safety" of the athletes when in reality they are simply making it an easy out. Blame "safety" and no one can push back or your an "asshole". But reality is, there are many swims that are cancelled for no good reason than actually regulating it for the worst swimmers and if it's any adversity, cue the "safety" clause.

ETA: And hell I dont blame the RD....If my career is built on some off the couch athlete who's not taken the training serious and dies cus of some adversity, that's with me forever...that "stat" is now forever there. And hell we are finding out that swim deaths lately aren't even the "crappy" swimmers...it's just people with undiagnosed conditions that are drowning cus they have a heart attack in a place that basically has zero way of saving them- water environment. So hell yeah RD's are going to call it more often than not call it. It's also why I would never be a good RD nor want to be one.

But if they can actually get in the water then there is no point in giving them an option, well I guess there is, I would wager you then just give them like the wetsuit option- no swim and scrubbed from results but you are an "ironman" blah blah blah.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 19 8:57
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.


I think the problem is, by using the "worst" simmers as their gauge what they actual do to make it *legit* cancellation by using a "safety" concern...."Oh well we cant get the lifeguards out there" so the swim is cancelled. They can't handle the 1' chop out there, so swim cancelled. "the coast guard cancelled, dont complain to me, they cancelled it", etc etc.

Cus they aren't going to have a swim without safety personal out there. That is just a liability lawsuit waiting to happen. And that's sorta the imo sneaky little thing that means there is no push back....."You can't complain if the safety personal can't get in the water".....

But if they can actually get in the water then there is no point in giving them an option, well I guess there is, I would wager you then just give them like the wetsuit option- no swim and scrubbed from results but you are an "ironman" blah blah blah.

I know at IM 70.3 Chattanooga this year they shortened the swim for the age groupers so we didn't have to swim the upstream portion apparently because they determined the pros struggled more than they would have liked. Of course, as far as I know, the RD didn't really get into specifics about what "struggling" meant for the pros. Prior to the race, I didn't hear anybody discussing concerns about the flow being too fast. I don't believe it was mentioned at athlete briefings.

I'm no fast swimmer but I'm at least getting in the pool and doing enough where I know going into a race I can complete the distance with no issues, wetsuit/no-wetsuit, current/no-current. It's a bit frustrating when race after race I'll be talking to people and I almost always here from people mention they have hardly done any swimming for this triathlon or they've swam once in the past 3 months so good thing it's wetsuit legal or at least optional. The pattern seems to be more of they are not prioritizing a minimal amount of swim training.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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It's a bit frustrating when race after race I'll be talking to people and I almost always here from people mention they have hardly done any swimming for this triathlon or they've swam once in the past 3 months so good thing it's wetsuit legal or at least optional. The pattern seems to be more of they are not prioritizing a minimal amount of swim training.

-----

I made a edit just as you replied to me, but here's the thing. This is why swims are going to continue to get cancelled. Because we live in a society that everyone can do anything with no consequences. I'd cancel them too if I was a RD and knew a percentage of the people doing them aren't adequately prepared.

You know what I do with athletes who behave like that? I give them 3 strikes and then fire them. But most RD's behave in that manner and they'd likely have no athletes for their events. So the RD's have to "bend" to the lowest person just to cover their own ass, and it's smart as hell on their part. But then you add in the fact that some swim deaths are simply because veteran swimmer didn't get his heart checked the last 5 years, so your then kinda like "WTF are we suppose to do". I mean of course they died, they had a f'ing heart attack in a water environment where the nearest LG was 72m away and they were surrounded by 178 other people and so in the most critical moment the LG simply "missed' seeing the episode at the right moment.

So I totally get why we cancel races now. We cater to the lowest ability and thus have to make decisions on that. It's only going to get worse. I remember my top collegiate athlete came into the sport 3 years ago, her 1st 5 races in 4 different states she did 1 full S-B-R triathlon. Everything else was swim cancelled for variety of reasons.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 19 9:08
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I definitely understand why RD directors do it. it's also disappointing when you hear people get excited about a swim being shortened or cancelled. I guess it's the new norm I suppose. I don't get too bent out of shape about it but I've only had to deal with a shortened swim not a full cancel. I'd be more upset having to deal with a cancelled swim for an IM. My first year of triathlon I did an olympic distance triathlon with an ocean swim as my last race of the season. Water was cold and it was like swimming in a washing machine getting smacked in the face with a wave half the time I popped my head up to sight. I wonder if that race occurred today if they would cancel the swim.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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While I agree that tons of AGers do minimal swimming to prepare, outright DROWNING (without a overriding cardiac arrest or other life-ending cardiac attack) just doesn't happen in triathlons. Despite literally millions and millions of people having done them.

Seriously, when was the last time someone healthy with zero cardiac events, actually straight up drowned in a triathlon? I'd love to know.

All the deaths have been hard to prevent - I think they have almost entirely been due to cardiac events (heart attacks) leading to drowning. And they still have been very few.

With this reality, this whole notion of 'swim safety testing' seems like a bunch of elitist BS to me. If people were actually drowning because of their lack of swim ability, then sure, go ahead and swim test or have a strict requirement of having proven swim capability in a prior race (I think some long open water swim events have such a requirement, you can't be a totally green OWS person and enter). But for triathlons with wetsuits, it's pointless, because nobody drowns. Even the suckiest swimmers don't drown, they just don't make the cutoff.

It would actually make a lot more sense for people to get BIKE certification of sorts before getting a swim certification, since on the bike, you literally can wipe out others with your bad handling, and this DOES happen regularly in races. Anyone who is calling for swim certification needs to get their reality and priorities straight and call for bike certification first.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Ive done 3 IM sanctioned events. Here are my results from all the money paid:

1 Swim
2 Bike
2 Runs

Out of 9 possible disciplines, I was only able to do 5 of them. One race was cancelled the morning of, the other full - the swim was cancelled. 1 out of 3 events had a swim.

So from my perspective, I care less about working on swimming since it most likely isnt going to happen anyway. I do train for the swim, but not speed... only distance to make sure I have the endurance.

The reason I am a soft swimmer, and maybe why a lot of others are soft swimmers is because we expect the swim will most likely not take place, therefore dont take it seriously.

As for the people who never practice swimming, or cant confidently swim the distance... well that's just stupid. Thats the one area where things can go disastrously wrong. At least if something goes wrong on the bike or run you have the chance to maneuver or mitigate the issue.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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5 of 9 is not that great... damn they owe you something
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Your missing the important point. Poor ill prepared athletes take up valuable resources that could be better monitoring swimmers.

And Iā€™m not for ā€œswim testsā€ but I am on the record as doing proper race progression.

Itā€™s stupid to do 1 sprint Tri and then sign up for an IM 14 months off the couch. But you can so ppl will keep that pattern.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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I'm curious as to where everybody is from where the swims keep getting cancelled. I'm in Minnesota and have done probably around 20 local races over the last 6 years and have had the full SBR in each of them. In fact I can't think of a single race that I'm heard of from the community that has had the swim cancelled or shortened in that time. Even the last one I did had warning signs posted about 'swimmers itch' being in the lake but we went it anyways. I know we've (generally) got nice clean lakes here that aren't terribly big so no real chop has a chance to form, but I find it interesting that I keep hearing of this problem where swims are chronically cancelled.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Your missing the important point. Poor ill prepared athletes take up valuable resources that could be better monitoring swimmers.

And Iā€™m not for ā€œswim testsā€ but I am on the record as doing proper race progression.

Itā€™s stupid to do 1 sprint Tri and then sign up for an IM 14 months off the couch. But you can so ppl will keep that pattern.
'

No, I am quite aware of that OLD and TIRED argument of these poor swimmers taking up resources that should be spent saving people from drowning.

Again - has anyone actually DROWNED without a cardiac event in a tri? Even more importantly, has any single one of those alleged drowning events occured because the staff were so occupied helping out the struggling AG swimmers? To date, I haven't heard of a single case where the staff was so overwhelmed by the struggling AGers that they couldn't keep an eye out. Not one.

The struggling AGers take minimal resources from the safety staff on the water. They are already wearing life-presever wetsuits and just have to hang onto a buoy or kayak until they catch their breath, then DNF or resume. Piece of cake. There are no AGers, no matter how lousy, that drown wearing a wetsuit because of exhaustion. I doubt they even come close, once they stop swimming.

Again, I am in no way defending terrible, unprepared swimmers. If you're not prepared for the race, that's your fault. But triathlons, even Ironmans, are NOT dangerous swim races, period. No testing needed, even if you literally can't complete the swim course.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Two comments to the prevailing posts in this thread..
1. Marathons don't require proof of time. Most don't, RnR series has you estimate and places you in a corral accordingly. Not the best because you can lie, but at least you put something in there. Disney races, as absurdly slow as they are and you really have NO chance at a PR, require a time on a certified course for corral placement... at least a 10k for 1/2 mary, and a 1/2 mary for the full marathon races. Maybe something as simple as pre assigning pace group placement for the swim might keep people from shuffling around in the morning and getting in the way being first off the dock and doing a slow breast stroke right off the bat.

2. The lack of swim training at the AG level that is being reported. I cannot believe this many people would ignore such a good aerobic training source. I used to think it was a waste of time for me since at my age and level, I'm not picking up more than 10 minutes AT BEST in an IM swim, but I still swam twice a week. Then someone said something that clicked, you can add aerobic endurance/efficiency in the water. And you can do it without impacting the bike or run workouts appreciably. It's now a priority, and if I need to skip a run workout, I'll try and squeeze in an extra swim somewhere else in the week.

Not sure what to do about this, but it is disheartening when you hear people get excited they don't have to swim. The TT bike starts with 2500 ppl is no fun at all.
Last edited by: djhuff7: Oct 15, 19 10:00
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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If you're not prepared for the race, that's your fault. But triathlons, even Ironmans, are NOT dangerous swim races, period

ā€”ā€”-

Of course they a lot of times arenā€™t dangerous. Have you read my comments lol. Iā€™ve said they use ā€œsafetyā€ of athletes as the catch all to cater to poorly prepared athletes so those athletes donā€™t die in their events and make it worse.

But where tri swims have become dangerous is our ā€œanyoneā€ can do anything sport. We as a sport allow those weak swimmers to basically ruin the swim portion of swims. And again I get why. Itā€™s the opposite of your viewpoint. Having ill prepared athletes does in fact make it a dangerous event.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [djhuff7] [ In reply to ]
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My only addition to those comments -

The swim aerobic training as a helpful tool, really works only if you are a pretty capable swimmer, like at least MOP, if not FOMOP.

I say this having myself gone from the full range from near dead-last swim finisher for a year, to as high as top 18% in a big HIM. As a true BOP swimmer, I was simply unable to pull hard enough in the water to really work my cardio. Sure, I could max out my cardio for short sprints, but anything over 200 yards, and my arms wouldn't be able to keep pace, and I'd get very little cardio training even if my arms were totally rocked after the workout.

As a BOMOP slighty better swimmer, I could hold harder paces longer, but I didn't have the swim base/ability to do those hard-cardio workouts without really fatiguing myself and compromising any upcoming hard bike/run workouts. I had to choose - toast myself on the swim, or go easier and save to get in a decent quality bike/run.

Now that I'm definitely MOP and even up to MOP+, I'm finally at the point where I definitely feel that I can get some excellent cardio and endurance training on the swim that I can x-over to bike/run. My arms are now strong enough that they don't get so blasted that they limit me anymore.

I'd bet that the bulk of AGers who are slower than MOP were like me - they simply cannot use swimming as a enhancing cardio/endurance tool, because they are still so bad at swimming.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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All the more reason to work to get better!!!

I guess I was lucky in that even as an AOS, I caught on pretty quick, Iā€™d say Iā€™m top 1/3 or so. But I hear you, those first 1/2 dozen workouts after a swim break my arms are pretty shredded before Iā€™m out of breath.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Your missing the important point. Poor ill prepared athletes take up valuable resources that could be better monitoring swimmers.

And Iā€™m not for ā€œswim testsā€ but I am on the record as doing proper race progression.

Itā€™s stupid to do 1 sprint Tri and then sign up for an IM 14 months off the couch. But you can so ppl will keep that pattern.

Agreed, a single sprint race and then right to IM distance race for an "off the couch" athlete is certainly not optimal.

So what did you do when starting out in the sport? How many races and what distances before the first of you IM distances races? Did you follow your own advice or were you a befuddled newbie who did what so many others do, jumping to IM quicker than was a good idea?
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
But where tri swims have become dangerous is our ā€œanyoneā€ can do anything sport.

That's the problem with any sport that gets branded in the minds of the public as "extreme" or "hard core." People want to take on the biggest, baddest challenge they can find, do it once, and call themselves an IRONMAN (TM). Same thing happens in mountaineering and Mt. Everest. (Or Denali or Rainier for in the US). Many people do these things because they are there, because they can, not because they actually enjoy the sport.

My personal "elitist" opinion is that for longer distance races we should lower the cutoff times which I think would be great for the sport. Not that I'm proposing this exact time, but say IM had a 14hr cutoff. If you want to be "hardcore" you now really have to think long and hard about the cutoff. 17 hours is pretty lax and you can put out a 2hr swim, 9hr bike, and still have 6 hours to jog-walk a marathon. Boom, you're an Ironman. But at 14 hours you really have to make some hard choices. Do you try to take 2 hours off the bike and also do a 5hr marathon? Or, you maybe have to work on your swim to give yourself a little more margin on the run? It's not quite as easy to hit the register button.

So IM loses some initial business. But I'd venture there would be more people who try a sprint or Oly distance first, and maybe instead of burying themselves in way too much training for their existing base fitness, but not enough to really enjoy the IM distance and suffer through 16 or 17 hours, they start with a shorter race, actually enjoy it, get faster, and then by the time they go for their bucketlist IM race, they are a triathlete.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.


72 used to be the cutoff. At nationals (ā€˜95 iirc) the water was just over 72 and they banned wetsuits. Several of the slower/older participants ended up with hypothermia (and this is a 1500m swim). After that they raised the limit to 78 to err on the side of caution.

Itā€™s kinda hard to tell someone they canā€™t wear a wetsuit in an event where they get hypothermia without one. This was nationals, so the skill level/experience/fitness is above the average local Oly.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [offpiste.reese] [ In reply to ]
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offpiste.reese wrote:
I love those anti-wetsuit articles. Technology advances are fine for cycling and running, but swim in a Speedo. If that's your perspective, go back to Merckx rules on the bike with a hairnet for a helmet and run barefoot.

For this line of thought, the current bike equipment and positions is so that people can roll 23 1/2 mph for Kona on 200w (local guy's #'s who just did Kona). Maybe less if skinnier.

To me, that just seems nuts. Especially with the non linear drag with speed. Meaning, most any joe blow can roll a fast bike split and lose minimal time.

I feel they should allow whatever swimwear people want if they allow P5X bikes and TT helmets and supersuits and the whole lot.

Same for shoes that make you X% faster.

Why's swimming get singled out on the equipment front?
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [burnthesheep] [ In reply to ]
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burnthesheep wrote:
offpiste.reese wrote:
I love those anti-wetsuit articles. Technology advances are fine for cycling and running, but swim in a Speedo. If that's your perspective, go back to Merckx rules on the bike with a hairnet for a helmet and run barefoot.


For this line of thought, the current bike equipment and positions is so that people can roll 23 1/2 mph for Kona on 200w (local guy's #'s who just did Kona). Maybe less if skinnier.

To me, that just seems nuts. Especially with the non linear drag with speed. Meaning, most any joe blow can roll a fast bike split and lose minimal time.

I feel they should allow whatever swimwear people want if they allow P5X bikes and TT helmets and supersuits and the whole lot.

Same for shoes that make you X% faster.

Why's swimming get singled out on the equipment front?

I should've put that in pink. I think they're stupid. Technology should be utilized wherever possible to go faster. I totally agree, why single swimming out?
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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Spartan420 wrote:
Ive done 3 IM sanctioned events. Here are my results from all the money paid:

1 Swim
2 Bike
2 Runs

Out of 9 possible disciplines, I was only able to do 5 of them. One race was cancelled the morning of, the other full - the swim was cancelled. 1 out of 3 events had a swim.

But why were they cancelled? and list the names of the races so they can be peer confirmed. IMMD 2016 my swim was cancelled because the currents were so strong that water safety crew couldn't even move effectively over the water. I wasn't thrilled but that made sense and I would have made the same call, just because some people could handle swimming in it doesn't mean that it makes sense, water safety crew NEEDS to be able to move quickly so they can respond to emergencies. Most people there that day just looked at the water, saw normal conditions and went off crying (excluding the handful that cheered). I ask because it seems you bring up this stat as if to say they are being soft but a full on event cancellation doesn't sound to me like it was a decision made to cater to the participants.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [gregn] [ In reply to ]
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Iā€™ve always said for me and what I push is progression. Do sprints, do Olympics then move to LC (70s and IMā€™s).


I followed my own advice. I did sprints and pool sprints before an Olympic. I never thought the IM was the end all be all that our sport pushes. And Iā€™ve not had the ability to do an IM because of an hip injury from a crash. Iā€™m going to do one eventually because of the respect I have for the race. I think the race is a beautiful thing, but must be respected. But I never got caught up in the IM bug nor has my coaching biz evolved around it either.

I also coach to that theory. If you come to me wanting to do an IM and I donā€™t think your ready, Iā€™ll tell you that. I fired 4 athletes this year that imo had no biz signing up for them. I gladly pushed them to other coaches, and took a huge financial hit in the process. But I stood by what I thought was best for both them and myself.

And the whole reason a swim test is being pushed is because itā€™s 1 small step to having athletes ā€œunderstandā€ what is required. IE improving their ā€œIll preparednessā€. Itā€™s one small step to removing ill prepared athletes. It doesnā€™t have to be the end all be all, but it can be a step in the right direction if so desired. Iā€™d rather push proper racing progression myself.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 19 12:28
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
Spartan420 wrote:
Ive done 3 IM sanctioned events. Here are my results from all the money paid:

1 Swim
2 Bike
2 Runs

Out of 9 possible disciplines, I was only able to do 5 of them. One race was cancelled the morning of, the other full - the swim was cancelled. 1 out of 3 events had a swim.

But why were they cancelled? and list the names of the races so they can be peer confirmed. IMMD 2016 my swim was cancelled because the currents were so strong that water safety crew couldn't even move effectively over the water. I wasn't thrilled but that made sense and I would have made the same call, just because some people could handle swimming in it doesn't mean that it makes sense, water safety crew NEEDS to be able to move quickly so they can respond to emergencies. Most people there that day just looked at the water, saw normal conditions and went off crying (excluding the handful that cheered). I ask because it seems you bring up this stat as if to say they are being soft but a full on event cancellation doesn't sound to me like it was a decision made to cater to the participants.

Some weeks ago, the last outdoor sprint was carried out. RD got extra safety because of 1,5' waves, 56 degrees water, 10 mph wind and 58 degreed air... But only 2 of 400 athletes needed assistance afaik.
And a nice challenge. Wetsuit made it feel safe :). The distance was meassured a bit of, being 900m and not 750m.

I really hope for more races like this, and suddenly the swim ability has impact on the results.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Dane82] [ In reply to ]
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Dane82 wrote:
The distance was meassured a bit of, being 900m and not 750m.

I really hope for more races like this, and suddenly the swim ability has impact on the results.

This year I did an "Oly" that had a stupid long swim of around 2.1km and a very short bike course of 25km. It wasn't supposed to be like that but the folks that set out the bouys really screwed up and construction on the normal bike course shortened it. So I got to do the fabled equilateral triathlon, and my splits were around 40min for each leg! It ended up being a pretty cool race and day.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:

But why were they cancelled? and list the names of the races so they can be peer confirmed. IMMD 2016 my swim was cancelled because the currents were so strong that water safety crew couldn't even move effectively over the water. I wasn't thrilled but that made sense and I would have made the same call, just because some people could handle swimming in it doesn't mean that it makes sense, water safety crew NEEDS to be able to move quickly so they can respond to emergencies. Most people there that day just looked at the water, saw normal conditions and went off crying (excluding the handful that cheered). I ask because it seems you bring up this stat as if to say they are being soft but a full on event cancellation doesn't sound to me like it was a decision made to cater to the participants.

IM 70.3 New Orleans - Cancelled
IMCHOO 2019 - No swim
IM 70.3 Gulf Coast - Actually got to do a triathlon.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [djhuff7] [ In reply to ]
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djhuff7 wrote:
2. The lack of swim training at the AG level that is being reported. I cannot believe this many people would ignore such a good aerobic training source. I used to think it was a waste of time for me since at my age and level, I'm not picking up more than 10 minutes AT BEST in an IM swim, but I still swam twice a week. Then someone said something that clicked, you can add aerobic endurance/efficiency in the water. And you can do it without impacting the bike or run workouts appreciably. It's now a priority, and if I need to skip a run workout, I'll try and squeeze in an extra swim somewhere else in the week.

One of the biggest hurdles for me, and other folks i know, with swimming is lack of resources. When itā€™s a 45 minute drive one way to the nearest pool, it makes swimming a challenge. And good luck finding a pool that the pool hours actually jive with your work/family schedule. You can run anytime and anywhere. Indoor bike trainers have made cycling much more convenient. Not everyone can afford a $10k infinity pool or afford to spend 3 hours of their day to get in a swim workout.

Now, thatā€™s something the athlete should recognize and perhaps say triathlon isnā€™t for me and do duathlons, but those arenā€™t as cool as M-dot races. I have a friend that has a small pond, thatā€™s where I do my swim training. Unfortunately, I donā€™t have anyone to critic my swim so Iā€™m basically just ingraining poor habits and form. Similar to the weekend duffer playing golf and just learning to adjust for their slice.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Iā€™ve always said for me and what I push is progression. Do sprints, do Olympics then move to LC (70s and IMā€™s).


I followed my own advice. I did sprints and pool sprints before an Olympic. I never thought the IM was the end all be all that our sport pushes. And Iā€™ve not had the ability to do an IM because of an hip injury from a crash. Iā€™m going to do one eventually because of the respect I have for the race. I think the race is a beautiful thing, but must be respected. But I never got caught up in the IM bug nor has my coaching biz evolved around it either.

I also coach to that theory. If you come to me wanting to do an IM and I donā€™t think your ready, Iā€™ll tell you that. I fired 4 athletes this year that imo had no biz signing up for them. I gladly pushed them to other coaches, and took a huge financial hit in the process. But I stood by what I thought was best for both them and myself.

And the whole reason a swim test is being pushed is because itā€™s 1 small step to having athletes ā€œunderstandā€ what is required. IE improving their ā€œIll preparednessā€. Itā€™s one small step to removing ill prepared athletes. It doesnā€™t have to be the end all be all, but it can be a step in the right direction if so desired. Iā€™d rather push proper racing progression myself.

I am NOT a coach by any means, but I do preach this when any of my friends that are not in this world ask me about doing an Ironman.

I had a good friend that was all in on doing one, we spend the first year doing a few sprints, and culminated the season with an Oly. Then next year we worked toward a 70.3 event late in the season. Then his life got in the way, and he realized that the time it takes to get to a competent level was not something he wanted to sacrifice so the idea has been bagged for now.

That is the recipe to get someone hooked on the lifestyle. Even though it didn't work out, he is still interested and doing some variation of workouts.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [djhuff7] [ In reply to ]
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I agree the best approach is to build your way up to the IM distance.

But obviously some people can prepare for and complete an IM as their first triathlon. Iā€™d be curious to see numbers on the success rate for those athletes.

But for some people it has nothing to do with a love for the sport or continuing the sport. Itā€™s just checking the box and getting their IM tattoo and then selling their tri bike and moving on to the next item on the checklist.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.

These threads on ā€˜soft swimmers diminishing triathlonā€™ seem to bring out the worst in us. Over on Letsrun there are threads lamenting how soft marathons became and some wanting a 3 hour cutoff. Face it, the swim is an integral part of triathlon, but it is the least important part (there, I said it). Attempts to place more emphasis on the small portion of the swim would, like lowering the wetsuit temp limit would just result in those same swimmers going without a wetsuit and increasing the chance of getting into difficulty. Or should we just say that triathlon is only for the chosen few and for everyone else...well you canā€™t play.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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People are upset that the swim leg is getting cancelled seemingly more frequently than in the past.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
But obviously some people can prepare for and complete an IM as their first triathlon. Iā€™d be curious to see numbers on the success rate for those athletes.


Sports Science back in like 2010, I believe did this. Normal "average joe" did an IM I believe within 3 months. Never had done a race before, he suffered like hell, but he finished. He had some back issues on the bike and hydration issues and was stopped by doc once, but I believe he went sub 15....in Kona.

I'll try and find the video of it as I'm sure it's on youtube somewhere. It included baseline testing to show progress, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV17InAbMnM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7Ns3Y2B1dg

S- 1:03
B- 8:15
R- ~4:40?
Total time- 14:01

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 15, 19 19:27
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Parkland wrote:
djhuff7 wrote:

2. The lack of swim training at the AG level that is being reported. I cannot believe this many people would ignore such a good aerobic training source. I used to think it was a waste of time for me since at my age and level, I'm not picking up more than 10 minutes AT BEST in an IM swim, but I still swam twice a week. Then someone said something that clicked, you can add aerobic endurance/efficiency in the water. And you can do it without impacting the bike or run workouts appreciably. It's now a priority, and if I need to skip a run workout, I'll try and squeeze in an extra swim somewhere else in the week.


One of the biggest hurdles for me, and other folks i know, with swimming is lack of resources. When itā€™s a 45 minute drive one way to the nearest pool, it makes swimming a challenge. And good luck finding a pool that the pool hours actually jive with your work/family schedule. You can run anytime and anywhere. Indoor bike trainers have made cycling much more convenient. Not everyone can afford a $10k infinity pool or afford to spend 3 hours of their day to get in a swim workout.

Now, thatā€™s something the athlete should recognize and perhaps say triathlon isnā€™t for me and do duathlons, but those arenā€™t as cool as M-dot races. I have a friend that has a small pond, thatā€™s where I do my swim training. Unfortunately, I donā€™t have anyone to critic my swim so Iā€™m basically just ingraining poor habits and form. Similar to the weekend duffer playing golf and just learning to adjust for their slice.

Do you live out in the country??? Is it also 45 min to the closest bike shop???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Right you are!

In the words of Ulysses Everett McGill:
ā€œ Well ain't this place a geographical oddity....two weeks from everywhereā€

Iā€™ve learned to do most of the bike maintenance myself. I really hate that I donā€™t live closer to a pool. It may be what keeps me from attempting a full distance triathlon.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Parkland] [ In reply to ]
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Parkland wrote:
Right you are! In the words of Ulysses Everett McGill:
ā€œ Well ain't this place a geographical oddity....two weeks from everywhereā€
Iā€™ve learned to do most of the bike maintenance myself. I really hate that I donā€™t live closer to a pool. It may be what keeps me from attempting a full distance triathlon.

Well, you could always buy a used Vasa and use it for most of your swim training. Maybe just drive the 1.5 hrs to and from the pool just once a week.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Spartan420] [ In reply to ]
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I went from not being able to swim a 25 yard length, never ridden a road bike and had only ran a half marathon in 2:08 to a 10:10 Ironman in 12 months. (1:02 Swim, 4:55 bike, 4:00 run).

Completely and doing a decent Ironman is not hard. Learning to be a decent swimmer is not hard. The large magority of people just want to call themselves an Ironman whilst doing the minimal amount of work possible.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
I agree with the thesis of these articles.

Too many swim-related decisions are being made based on what the worst 1% of swimmers in the crowd can handle. I think that in those situations where the conditions are tough, IM should offer a non-swim bike start after the swim cut-off expires. Put the onus back on the athlete to be responsible for him/herself, but give them an option to still make a day of it.

Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.

With regard to temperature, I think this is a great idea, possibly with a modification of the temp limit This could have the trickle down effect of teaching people that if you want to participate in a 3-sport event, get comfortable swimming without a wetsuit. If you want to bike at the front, get comfortable swimming without a wetsuit. B/c biking from the back stinks, as pointed out already.

But the temp limit is the tough thing b/c as Monty pointed out, different people have different tolerances that they can easily & legally manage with clothing options for other portions of the race. So my question is - who makes a warm suit that is buoyancy neutral? Meaning, is there alternate gear that temperature-volunerable people can swim in that would keep them warmer without giving the buoyancy advantage?

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
My only addition to those comments -

The swim aerobic training as a helpful tool, really works only if you are a pretty capable swimmer, like at least MOP, if not FOMOP.

I say this having myself gone from the full range from near dead-last swim finisher for a year, to as high as top 18% in a big HIM. As a true BOP swimmer, I was simply unable to pull hard enough in the water to really work my cardio. Sure, I could max out my cardio for short sprints, but anything over 200 yards, and my arms wouldn't be able to keep pace, and I'd get very little cardio training even if my arms were totally rocked after the workout.

As a BOMOP slighty better swimmer, I could hold harder paces longer, but I didn't have the swim base/ability to do those hard-cardio workouts without really fatiguing myself and compromising any upcoming hard bike/run workouts. I had to choose - toast myself on the swim, or go easier and save to get in a decent quality bike/run.

Now that I'm definitely MOP and even up to MOP+, I'm finally at the point where I definitely feel that I can get some excellent cardio and endurance training on the swim that I can x-over to bike/run. My arms are now strong enough that they don't get so blasted that they limit me anymore.

I'd bet that the bulk of AGers who are slower than MOP were like me - they simply cannot use swimming as a enhancing cardio/endurance tool, because they are still so bad at swimming.

To add, Or their form actually leads to pain so swimming more in the short term leads to injury. Or to sineus issues. Lots of advice is given from the pov of very skilled athletes. As you point out, yes swimming more helps, but it takes a really long time to hone that skill and it is additionally difficult if say it leads to neck pain and numbness in your wrist.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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BGildenstern wrote:
I went from not being able to swim a 25 yard length, never ridden a road bike and had only ran a half marathon in 2:08 to a 10:10 Ironman in 12 months. (1:02 Swim, 4:55 bike, 4:00 run).

Completely and doing a decent Ironman is not hard. Learning to be a decent swimmer is not hard. The large magority of people just want to call themselves an Ironman whilst doing the minimal amount of work possible.

Incorrect. It very much is hard. Great on you for having fantastic genes. No amount of training, ever, would get me to a 10:10. Sub 12? Maybe, on the right course. Assuming I ever learn to run with correct form and stop tweaking my hip. I'm not a great swimmer but that isn't my limiter for a 12 h finish.

At any rate, I've been in the full IM club for 9 years and consistently active over all of them. Not everyone is gifted with huge potential and low rate of injury.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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I'm just going to throw this out there...

What if completing an IM was never hard, but now it's just so much more accessible that you see it outside the lens of top racers and crazy people?

Let's be honest, IM is mostly an exercise in focusing free time. Some people have it and put it towards IM, some don't. But the real challenge is just managing your life to put in the time.

Now racing an IM is a different story, but this thread is primarily complaining about how prepared the "completers" are.
Last edited by: cujo: Oct 16, 19 5:35
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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Pretty accurate. I mean 17hr IM isn't *that hard* when you think about it. But I think it's also just big enough of a task that it creates far too many athletes doing them ill prepared.

It's funny in the US we have a junior elite series that is of an sprint distance (750m S, 20k B, 5k R) of athletes aged 16-19. It's been now ~10+ years of the series and what we are finding is that for 85% of the racers, they aren't actually "racing" it by the end. They are just trying to get to the finish. And we are talking about guys that can run faster than 18 mins for 5k, but yet by the time they add all that fatigue, the race is so far blown up that only less than a dozen of the 75 are "racing" full effort. Everyone else is just strung out, running til the finish.

It's actually made for discussions of shortening the distance for what their bodies/training can handle.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Waingro] [ In reply to ]
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Waingro wrote:
Yes, and lower the temperature of what is wetsuit legal. 74 degrees should not be a wetsuit legal swim.

This right here. The legal temp for most races to use a wetsuit is 76 degrees. Overheating is a bigger threat than swimming (slightly) slower. I still am not sure why pros have a different temp than age groupers. The temp should be standard across the board. If you want to wear a wetsuit above 72 degrees F (I think) then you just start in your own wave of wetsuit swimmers at the back and aren't eligible for a podium spot, since let's be real, if you're too nervous about swimming sans wetsuit, then you probably aren't concerned about being near the pointy end of the race results. Is it really that hard to update?
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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For high schoolers, an hour long endurance event is pretty, well, long, if you're expecting it to be widely competitive. I can't think of another event that comes within half at that time commitment. Expecting these kids to "race" it at a high level is a bit of a stretch.

I'm guessing the bulk of them are otherwise single sport athletes (xc, swimming) that just carry over that fitness. As every triathlete ever has quickly figured out, that just doesn't work well once you're competing at the pointy end. I'm actually more surprised you have 75 in a single race.

That said, isn't what you're describing just a pacing problem? That is, they aren't pacing for the race they are in. Sounds like they lack experience and coaching.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know if its a pacing problem as much as it sounds like they are trying to win the race/stay with the leaders. Then they blow up when they can't. To me, that's understandable, you give what you have until you blow up or make the podium.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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Yes and just like for IM's they are doing events that they aren't ready for. Thus when any "adversity" hits in, they falter. That's really the issue here.


IM race isn't *that hard*. But it's hard for most people because they have usually a more likely accelerated time line of wanting to race it then they *should*. So then the actual training is only done at a basic level and when your swim is only what 1/8th what the rest of the race is, you "skip" swim sessions. So then when your hit with adversity of swim conditions or a flat tire or 96* racing temps, you have athletes that falter badly.

So imo the 17 hr mark of IM invites just enough people to think/hope/want to do it and thus train the way they do. And my guess isn't that they are specifically trying to "undertrain"....it's that to train from the starting level they come to to "nailing" a IM race is a really really hard thing to do. But of course "nailing it" for many will be simply to get to the finish line with 16:59:59 on the clock or less. They'll say it's the hardest thing they've done and then likely go about something else. I had an athlete I was training. I asked her why the rush to IM when she wasn't ready for the training nor race..... "I wanna have a family" and this was an "older" athlete in the upper 30's who as we all know the societal/family pressure of that age and having kids, etc. So I totally got why she wanted to "rush the process". I just wasnt going to be apart of that rushed process because I know with experience what putting on that type of training load can do to people, especially when they aren't ready to take on that load.


It isn't a pacing problem...it's a development/training problem at the junior elite series because of many factors (including what you said a HS athlete racing an 1 hr event).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 16, 19 7:56
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Pretty accurate. I mean 17hr IM isn't *that hard* when you think about it. But I think it's also just big enough of a task that it creates far too many athletes doing them ill prepared.

It's funny in the US we have a junior elite series that is of an sprint distance (750m S, 20k B, 5k R) of athletes aged 16-19. It's been now ~10+ years of the series and what we are finding is that for 85% of the racers, they aren't actually "racing" it by the end. They are just trying to get to the finish. And we are talking about guys that can run faster than 18 mins for 5k, but yet by the time they add all that fatigue, the race is so far blown up that only less than a dozen of the 75 are "racing" full effort. Everyone else is just strung out, running til the finish.

It's actually made for discussions of shortening the distance for what their bodies/training can handle.
17 hours as the final cutoff, IMO, is embarrassing. If you can even half hack a swim and bike you're going to have 9 hours to walk 26 miles... casual family stroll pace. I don't get it. I wouldn't do one myself because quite honestly I will not spend the time it takes to run 26 miles without injuring myself and I refuse to do one to "just do one". Kudos to those that put themselves through it. I fail to see the allure.

I think you're point about the juniors is interesting. Possibly going out too fast? Even the strongest will fall off the map if they go red too early or too often. Agree with cujo it sounds like a coaching and pacing problem, but is also just an experience problem.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Jimi Sendrix] [ In reply to ]
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I still am not sure why pros have a different temp than age groupers.//

Because they are a much more competent and better swimmers as a group than age groupers. The also spend much less time in the water, often times less than half the time of BOP AG'ers.


And once again, we dont set water temps to suit you, personally. Have you swam in a 72 degree pool for a couple hours, how does that feel? 72 degree fresh water is no where near the same as 72 degree salt water. Most pools are set at 81 to 83, 79 is cool for when it is race day. The rules are there for the vast majority, but I would like to see a separate fresh from salt water one, to reflect the major difference in how they feel to folks. So my own personal feeling it should be 51 or lower for a wetsuit, you good with that?? (-;
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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> Yes and just like for IM's they are doing events that they aren't ready for. Thus when any "adversity" hits in, they falter.

I think this sums it up for me actually. Too much race too soon.

At the IM level, I don't know what can be done about it. Lower the cutoff to 12 hours (or whatever) and you'll still have people that train to finish in 11:59, and I'd guess, a very large number of people that would never attempt a triathlon. I'll let others argue about what is good for the sport, but it's not obvious to me that there is a clear path forward.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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cujo wrote:
> Yes and just like for IM's they are doing events that they aren't ready for. Thus when any "adversity" hits in, they falter.

I think this sums it up for me actually. Too much race too soon.

At the IM level, I don't know what can be done about it. Lower the cutoff to 12 hours (or whatever) and you'll still have people that train to finish in 11:59, and I'd guess, a very large number of people that would never attempt a triathlon. I'll let others argue about what is good for the sport, but it's not obvious to me that there is a clear path forward.
Whoa, timeout. Don't conflate IM with triathlon. This is exactly what they should do. So more people who don't belong in IM don't enter them, and maybe they will stick to distances that are more suited for their family life, free time, and athletic ability. The fastest guys in the world are doing sprint/oly distance.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [cujo] [ In reply to ]
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cujo wrote:
I'm just going to throw this out there...

What if completing an IM was never hard, but now it's just so much more accessible that you see it outside the lens of top racers and crazy people?

Let's be honest, IM is mostly an exercise in focusing free time. Some people have it and put it towards IM, some don't. But the real challenge is just managing your life to put in the time.

Now racing an IM is a different story, but this thread is primarily complaining about how prepared the "completers" are.

Completing an IM is hard. End of.

Racing an IM...well, the pros are elite athletes. Everyone else is in it for the adrenaline. (Which would put me in that category).

The amount of training I had to do just to finish a 70.3 in 7 hours is a tad mind boggling to the average bear. It's not the race itself that is the hard part. The training volume is the hard part. But let's stop subverting the reality that IM is actually hard. What's not hard? A Novice Pool Sprint. And yet when you tell people you're racing in one of those people still think it's tough.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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I think you're point about the juniors is interesting. Possibly going out too fast? Even the strongest will fall off the map if they go red too early or too often. Agree with cujo it sounds like a coaching and pacing problem, but is also just an experience problem.

-------

I didn't want to hijack the thread when I made that comparison, but it was more to showcase what racing an distance athletes are "ill prepared" for does.

It's not really a matter of going out too fast because of drafting tactics. My point in bringing it up was that we are seeing the actual length of the race is having a major impact on the ability of athletes to actual "race" and this is a series that is part of the "olympic pipeline". We don't need to have race distances where 3/4ths of the racers are just "completing" 1k into the run.


It's a "coaching" problem because of the format in which we have to coach these kids in an HS format in the United States. We as the tri coach don't get to coach them "full time". We have to deal with the swim coach and demands, the xc coach and demands and then "we" have to put it all together. So it's not necessary that they are being coached incorrectly. It's that we are trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Thus why the idea of actually shortening the distance to make it more competitive.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Jimi Sendrix] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly!

Here are the rules for Ironman regarding wetsuits which I also believe are the rules for USAT

Ironman Triathlon Event Wetsuit Guidelines
  • Age group triathletes are allowed to wear wetsuits in water temperatures up to 76.1F/24.5C
  • Professional triathletes are allowed to wear wetsuits in water temperatures up to 71.5F/21.9C
  • Booties are allowed to be worn in temperatures below 66.0F
  • A swim cap is allowed to be worn at anytime.

For those athletes looking to qualify for 70.3 World Championships, Hawaii Ironman World Championships and Age Group Nationals they should qualify under the rules the pros go by and be in separate waves. For those athletes that have no interest they are more than welcome to participate but are not eligible to qualify for Championship events or podium. Best of both worlds in my opinion.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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I hear you. I'm just saying IM is a big carrot for people to start tri. If you take reduce the number of people who think they can finish IM distance, you likely reduce the number of people that ever consider a sprint or oly. Maybe not. But it seems likely to me.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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I think we're agreeing, but I'm not saying it clearly, maybe.

I'm not saying anyone can show up off the couch and complete an IM distance event. I'm saying the true difficulty lies in the training, not the event. If you can find the time and motivation to put in the training, you'll likely finish inside of 17 hours. That time limit is very forgiving assuming you put in the prep. Finding the time and motivation is the hard part, in my opinion.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
cujo wrote:
> Yes and just like for IM's they are doing events that they aren't ready for. Thus when any "adversity" hits in, they falter.

I think this sums it up for me actually. Too much race too soon.

At the IM level, I don't know what can be done about it. Lower the cutoff to 12 hours (or whatever) and you'll still have people that train to finish in 11:59, and I'd guess, a very large number of people that would never attempt a triathlon. I'll let others argue about what is good for the sport, but it's not obvious to me that there is a clear path forward.

Whoa, timeout. Don't conflate IM with triathlon. This is exactly what they should do. So more people who don't belong in IM don't enter them, and maybe they will stick to distances that are more suited for their family life, free time, and athletic ability. The fastest guys in the world are doing sprint/oly distance.

lol lowering the cutoff to 12 hours? that's an acceptable solution? IM would close up shop.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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What the counter will be is when will the ā€œhard coreā€ lifestyle triathletes finally walk away from a sport that is continuing to get its events modified (for whatever valid or weak reason).

Will IM Lou be an issue because of its swim cancelled not for athlete issues but actual health safety.

Is IM Maryland around? They had how many swims get cancelled?

Will there be a tipping point? Idk

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 16, 19 9:06
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
What the counter will be is when will the ā€œhard coreā€ lifestyle triathletes finally walk away from a sport that is continuing to get its events modified (for whatever valid or weak reason).

Will IM Lou be an issue because of its swim cancelled not for athlete issues but actual health safety.

Is IM Maryland around? They had how many swims get cancelled?

Will there be a tipping point? Idk

agree. who knows? just as an example, I looked at IM Florida results from last year and there were 276 finishers below 12 hours. 887 under 14 hours. IM lists 3090 athletes for that race. Not sure how many started. that's not a lot of people finishing if the cutoff is lowered. sure IM should be a challenge but IM wants people to be able to finish. IM would probably end up losing a lot of participants. They'd have to adjust their business model. I think that would be a challenge for them.

I thought Chattanooga would be immune until they cancelled and shortened due to too strong a current. And certainly with any sort of coastal swim there can be issues. Florida had riptides one year. Maryland was flooding from hurricane. Maybe lake swims would be better but they could still have algae.

agree though. not sure what the tipping point is if there is one
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
What the counter will be is when will the ā€œhard coreā€ lifestyle triathletes finally walk away from a sport that is continuing to get its events modified (for whatever valid or weak reason).

Will IM Lou be an issue because of its swim cancelled not for athlete issues but actual health safety.

Is IM Maryland around? They had how many swims get cancelled?

Will there be a tipping point? Idk

Those people form a significantly small percentage of the population. And are likely toxic people.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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TheStroBro wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
What the counter will be is when will the ā€œhard coreā€ lifestyle triathletes finally walk away from a sport that is continuing to get its events modified (for whatever valid or weak reason).

Will IM Lou be an issue because of its swim cancelled not for athlete issues but actual health safety.

Is IM Maryland around? They had how many swims get cancelled?

Will there be a tipping point? Idk


Those people form a significantly small percentage of the population. And are likely toxic people.



I would actually think they are your bread and butter for repeated races, repeat buying of merchandise/equipment, local races, etc. The one and doners are likely the more toxic to your sport. Not the lifestyle triathletes.

You have that backwards. The lifestylers are what you can sustain the sport on, the one and doners will eventually run out. Most especially if you butcher the sport where races continue to go away.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 16, 19 9:35
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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I understand that everything is relative but I stand by my statement that completing an Ironman is not hard. It requires dedication and time but I would compare this to getting a college degree. It may be tough work but to simply get a college degree for those in the position requires simply time and some level of dedication. A community college communications degree with a 2.7GPA requires 8x the amount of time and effort an Ironman does but something tells me that most do not find that accomplishment "hard". Just time consuming.

We all have time and it depends how we spend it. Getting to Kona is hard because no matter how hard you try, you may not be successful but simply finishing is 99% within your power.

One thing I think would help would be to drop the swim cutoff to 1:40 down from 2:20. Then people would at least train to get to a moderate level of swim ability. For the bike the cutoff is roughly 2x the winners split and roughly 2x winner with the run yet for the swim the cutoff is almost 3x that of the winner. If they solved that I think there would be an improvement.
Last edited by: BGildenstern: Oct 16, 19 9:45
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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mickison wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
What the counter will be is when will the ā€œhard coreā€ lifestyle triathletes finally walk away from a sport that is continuing to get its events modified (for whatever valid or weak reason).

Will IM Lou be an issue because of its swim cancelled not for athlete issues but actual health safety.

Is IM Maryland around? They had how many swims get cancelled?

Will there be a tipping point? Idk


agree. who knows? just as an example, I looked at IM Florida results from last year and there were 276 finishers below 12 hours. 887 under 14 hours. IM lists 3090 athletes for that race. Not sure how many started. that's not a lot of people finishing if the cutoff is lowered. sure IM should be a challenge but IM wants people to be able to finish. IM would probably end up losing a lot of participants. They'd have to adjust their business model. I think that would be a challenge for them.

I thought Chattanooga would be immune until they cancelled and shortened due to too strong a current. And certainly with any sort of coastal swim there can be issues. Florida had riptides one year. Maryland was flooding from hurricane. Maybe lake swims would be better but they could still have algae.

agree though. not sure what the tipping point is if there is one



I did Ironman Florida last year. Almost 50% of people DNS as the race was changed from PCB to Haines city 2 weeks prior to the start due to Hurricane Michael so I believe only around 1600 started.
Last edited by: BGildenstern: Oct 16, 19 9:48
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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Ah okay. So that would leave somewhere around 500 above 14 hours in my example
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mickison] [ In reply to ]
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It sucks because since such a large portion are completers, the tough but beautiful races have such a hard time. I am thrilled they are bringing a few back in rotation but races like Coeur d'Alene, Boulder and St. George all were cancelled due to the difficulty causing low crowds despite being beautiful courses with excellent crowd support. Most people just prefer the easier course.
Last edited by: BGildenstern: Oct 16, 19 10:03
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [BGildenstern] [ In reply to ]
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I didnā€™t realize Coeur d'Alene was discontinued because it was too challenging
Last edited by: mickison: Oct 16, 19 12:48
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
What the counter will be is when will the ā€œhard coreā€ lifestyle triathletes finally walk away from a sport that is continuing to get its events modified (for whatever valid or weak reason).

Will IM Lou be an issue because of its swim cancelled not for athlete issues but actual health safety.

Is IM Maryland around? They had how many swims get cancelled?

Will there be a tipping point? Idk


Those people form a significantly small percentage of the population. And are likely toxic people.



I would actually think they are your bread and butter for repeated races, repeat buying of merchandise/equipment, local races, etc. The one and doners are likely the more toxic to your sport. Not the lifestyle triathletes.

You have that backwards. The lifestylers are what you can sustain the sport on, the one and doners will eventually run out. Most especially if you butcher the sport where races continue to go away.

No, you said the "HARD CORE". The Triathlon is getting soft crew. The great thing about triathlon is that there options within the same race, you can make this as hard or as easy as you want it. Or...you can do an X Tri if you want harder, or you can do Ultra-Man, or a Deca, or a double Deca...or for the hard core. You can do Uber Man. Uber Man only had five competitors this year. 3 Finished.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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You may have took my comment out of context (I did write "hard core" lifestyle triathlete- the ones that S-B-R train year after year, race year after year not always IM but having done the sport for 14 straight years etc)), but my original comment was basically asking if at some point the people who love triathlon for the S-B-R actually leave because it's seemingly consistently losing the swim, we may be in serious trouble.

But another thing that I see in my community is actual bike safety as a big factor too. Sure some will move to indoor only riding etc., but the less safe it becomes more and more it will have an impact on the sport at some point.


So my point more was, at some point you can't just keep cutting off the swim and thinking everyone will be jolly ole happy and thankful the swim is cancelled. Keep that up and you'll lose your sport.



ETA: I'm very much in the "triathlon is getting soft" with some of the swim cancellations. But again the moment you make it "athlete safety" there's nothing you can argue. It could be blowing 8 mph and if they dont want to put the LG's in the water, they can say "athlete safety". This year's USAT Nats swim change was weak as hell imo. But of course it's the same venue that an very old gentleman "drowned" because he had an heart attack cus he was in his what late 70's last year. So the RD/USAT is going to most defintely shy on the "safe" side. I just thought it was very weak, if this was the 1st year I have no doubt it wouldn't have been cancelled.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 16, 19 12:57
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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I swim not so fast and ride FOP. Very rarely do I get much of a benefit from slingshotIng, and Iā€™m always on the lookout to tryšŸ˜­. Swim 1:05 and bike 4:45 and best case is minute or two by slingshoting, that is not nothing, but if I were and good swimmer there is no way I would start further back in the hopes of help from slower riders. On the contrary, my paranoid mind is always telling me the fast swimmers are up there working together.

I also donā€™t see wetsuit or no wetsuit making much of a difference at the end of the day. Being a crappy swimmer I still prefer a swim with no wetsuit just so I donā€™t have to screw around with the thing.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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It is the nature of people to want to seek the easier option if given the choice.I remember in '95 (I think,maybe '94) I was one of the bus tour guides for the Ironman Canada course in Penticton.I had been told by the race director that the finish cut-off was going to be changed from 15hrs to 17hrs to fall in line with Hawaii and that the athletes would be told at the Carbo Party.So,off we go for our bus trip around the bike course and as we rolled back into town I told the athletes of the time change to 17hrs and they all cheered.I was amazed and said "Every one of you trained to come here and go under 15hrs so the time change should not have any bearing on this weekends race for anyone except those who have some unforeseen issues." Nope,I could immediately hear folks starting to discuss a different race plan to work with the extra two hours. If you moved the cut-off to 19hrs tomorrow the same thing would happen.
Last edited by: ThailandUltras: Oct 16, 19 14:53
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think it's just people seeking the easiest way out. Doing an Ironman is NOT an easy route to take, even if you finish past the cutoff!

The reality is that the IM is a lonnnnggg race. It's hard, and really hard for most folks who train less than 12 hrs/wk.

Add the substantial number of 50+ and female AGers who aren't going to naturally go as fast as a M30-35, and I really can't blame them for wanting a longer cutoff. Or even a shorter, easier swim - I embrace swimming as much as most, but when you're faced with a 112 mi bike and then a marathon, it's pretty normal to give up some swim training to make sure you can survive that long bike/run.

Right now I'm M40-45, and while I seriously doubt I'd be in danger of missing an IM cutoff at 17hrs now, ask me again in 20 years - I suspect that even if I'm just as motivated as I am now to train and race, the age alone will put me at risk.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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LOL, in this thread people are complaining that bop swimmers and those completing an IM close to the cut off are diminishing the sport. In your other thread you are pointing out how many swim cheats there are in Kona. Iā€™m confused about which class of triathletes diminishes the sport.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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ThailandUltras wrote:
So,off we go for our bus trip around the bike course and as we rolled back into town I told the athletes of the time change to 17hrs and they all cheered.

Bizzare. I wonder if this is an ironman (full course) thing. I've always viewed that distance as a whole different type of event. I think many see it as a matter of survival, i.e. just finish at any cost. Probably one of the reasons I'm not drawn to full ironman distance. I have no desire to walk the marathon.

"The first virtue in a soldier is endurance of fatigue; courage is only the second virtue."
- Napoleon Bonaparte
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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One thread was whether or not people are actually cheating in the swim at the Hawaii Ironman by using swim diapers under their swimskins as posted by someone who participated in the event this year and observed by a volunteer in 2017 with a picture he posted.

The other thread is how people who participate in 70.3s and Ironmans and are not competent swimmers because they either do not put the effort in to improve their swim or are reliant on a wetsuit are affecting the event because race directors are quick to cancel the swim due to the fact they are dealing with the lowest common denominator.

Two separate issues and I would argue both are diminishing the sport.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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2brokenhips wrote:
One thread was whether or not people are actually cheating in the swim at the Hawaii Ironman by using swim diapers under their swimskins as posted by someone who participated in the event this year and observed by a volunteer in 2017 with a picture he posted.

The other thread is how people who participate in 70.3s and Ironmans and are not competent swimmers because they either do not put the effort in to improve their swim or are reliant on a wetsuit are affecting the event because race directors are quick to cancel the swim due to the fact they are dealing with the lowest common denominator.

Two separate issues and I would argue both are diminishing the sport.

How about people who do what they can to complete an IM because itā€™s a meaningful challenge in their life. You seem to imply that those who arenā€™t good swimmers are simply lazy, and have not even cared to consider other situations. Would you deny them the opportunity to be called an Ironman because they donā€™t meet your standards. With the doping, cheating, and priggish views of many triathletes, we should be saluting and encouraging those who still maintain the original spirit of Ironman, and that is to challenge yourself. Or are you saying Julie Moss should never have competed because she had difficulty finishing the race.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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vonschnapps wrote:
2brokenhips wrote:
One thread was whether or not people are actually cheating in the swim at the Hawaii Ironman by using swim diapers under their swimskins as posted by someone who participated in the event this year and observed by a volunteer in 2017 with a picture he posted.

The other thread is how people who participate in 70.3s and Ironmans and are not competent swimmers because they either do not put the effort in to improve their swim or are reliant on a wetsuit are affecting the event because race directors are quick to cancel the swim due to the fact they are dealing with the lowest common denominator.

Two separate issues and I would argue both are diminishing the sport.


How about people who do what they can to complete an IM because itā€™s a meaningful challenge in their life. You seem to imply that those who arenā€™t good swimmers are simply lazy, and have not even cared to consider other situations. Would you deny them the opportunity to be called an Ironman because they donā€™t meet your standards. With the doping, cheating, and priggish views of many triathletes, we should be saluting and encouraging those who still maintain the original spirit of Ironman, and that is to challenge yourself. Or are you saying Julie Moss should never have competed because she had difficulty finishing the race.

The issue is those who have decided that they aren't going to put the time into the one leg of the sport that has the highest possibility of killing you.Fleck and I have both posted here numerous times about the people we have witnessed who are standing at the start of an Ironman having never swum in open water,never swum close to the distance in training and/or have never swum in a wetsuit.It is not about people being slow or just being a one and done it is about being ill prepared for what is quiet rightly described in all media as one of the hardest single day events you can do.It just boggles the mind that people go into an ironman so ill prepared.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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2brokenhips wrote:
For those athletes looking to qualify for 70.3 World Championships, Hawaii Ironman World Championships and Age Group Nationals they should qualify under the rules the pros go by and be in separate waves. For those athletes that have no interest they are more than welcome to participate but are not eligible to qualify for Championship events or podium. Best of both worlds in my opinion.

Hah, finding more complex rules to solve problems. There's probably a job at the UCI for you somewhere.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [vonschnapps] [ In reply to ]
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No like ThailandUltras commented. It is those people who want to do a triathlon who are completely unprepared for whatever reason especially for the swim who have made it now that race directors are more willing to cancel a swim due to "safety" issues while a large majority - fast or slow - have put the effort in, paid a lot of money to do a triathlon and made a lot of sacrifices and are now denied the chance for something they may have trained for over a year to accomplish.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Well written article, thanks for sharing it.

Yes, IRONMAN is a Chinese corporation whose primary goal is making money. They will cater to the masses as you said below. That's why you see cars driving out on the bike course to pick up these novices who can't even complete the bike ride.

It's not even a big deal to do a 1/2 iron. Just look at all of the obese people that are crossing the finish line. The full IM is considerably more demanding though, but still pretty attainable for someone in decent shape.

Yeah they are never going to make people qualify for the swim, b/c that would prevent to many people from competing AND it would increase IRONMAN's costs. Remember that this is a greedy Chinese corporation that wants to maximize profits by: keeping its costs low, minimizing paid labor, providing cheap products, and charging a high race entry fee.

Seems to me that the race brand has lost its prestige over the past 5 years or so. I wouldn't buy it again.




2brokenhips wrote:
There is a paradox here, though. Ironman is billed as the hardest one-day event on the planet, yet its owners preside over a finance-driven model which demands as many bodies on the start-line as possible, regardless of athletic competence.
The aspirational marketing that claims ā€˜Anything Is Possibleā€™ for anyone has a flipside ā€“ it downplays the challenge. Not in the surface level hype or in the small print of the disclaimers, but in decisions on race day, where the novice who might rarely leave the pool, now encounters the swell of a sea swim, and the race director isnā€™t confident to proceed.
Ironman is a very different beast to parkrun, for example, that happily celebrates its average times getting slower because it encourages mass participation. A 3.8km swim, 180km bike and 42.2km run puts a severe load on anyoneā€™s body, but the achievement of completing it has been normalised in recent years. Itā€™s no longer the preserve of the quirky few with years of endurance sport experience and the resilience to cope with inclement conditions. Too many of us now turn up wide-eyed and underprepared. Even if organisers donā€™t encourage it, they have to cater for it, so when thereā€™s a large show of hands at the start of an iron-distance race from those admitting itā€™s their first triathlon, there should be concern not applause.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Amateur] [ In reply to ]
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Amateur wrote:
Well written article, thanks for sharing it.

Yes, IRONMAN is a Chinese corporation whose primary goal is making money. They will cater to the masses as you said below. That's why you see cars driving out on the bike course to pick up these novices who can't even complete the bike ride.

It's not even a big deal to do a 1/2 iron. Just look at all of the obese people that are crossing the finish line. The full IM is considerably more demanding though, but still pretty attainable for someone in decent shape.

Yeah they are never going to make people qualify for the swim, b/c that would prevent to many people from competing AND it would increase IRONMAN's costs. Remember that this is a greedy Chinese corporation that wants to maximize profits by: keeping its costs low, minimizing paid labor, providing cheap products, and charging a high race entry fee.

Seems to me that the race brand has lost its prestige over the past 5 years or so. I wouldn't buy it again.


As opposed to the greedy American company that owned it before....
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Cheap Chinese product, no matter how you slice it. :)


ThailandUltras wrote:
Amateur wrote:
Well written article, thanks for sharing it.

Yes, IRONMAN is a Chinese corporation whose primary goal is making money. They will cater to the masses as you said below. That's why you see cars driving out on the bike course to pick up these novices who can't even complete the bike ride.

It's not even a big deal to do a 1/2 iron. Just look at all of the obese people that are crossing the finish line. The full IM is considerably more demanding though, but still pretty attainable for someone in decent shape.

Yeah they are never going to make people qualify for the swim, b/c that would prevent to many people from competing AND it would increase IRONMAN's costs. Remember that this is a greedy Chinese corporation that wants to maximize profits by: keeping its costs low, minimizing paid labor, providing cheap products, and charging a high race entry fee.

Seems to me that the race brand has lost its prestige over the past 5 years or so. I wouldn't buy it again.


As opposed to the greedy American company that owned it before....
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Amateur] [ In reply to ]
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Amateur wrote:
Cheap Chinese product, no matter how you slice it. :)


ThailandUltras wrote:
Amateur wrote:
Well written article, thanks for sharing it.

Yes, IRONMAN is a Chinese corporation whose primary goal is making money. They will cater to the masses as you said below. That's why you see cars driving out on the bike course to pick up these novices who can't even complete the bike ride.

It's not even a big deal to do a 1/2 iron. Just look at all of the obese people that are crossing the finish line. The full IM is considerably more demanding though, but still pretty attainable for someone in decent shape.

Yeah they are never going to make people qualify for the swim, b/c that would prevent to many people from competing AND it would increase IRONMAN's costs. Remember that this is a greedy Chinese corporation that wants to maximize profits by: keeping its costs low, minimizing paid labor, providing cheap products, and charging a high race entry fee.

Seems to me that the race brand has lost its prestige over the past 5 years or so. I wouldn't buy it again.


As opposed to the greedy American company that owned it before....

WTC is based in Florida and staffed by Americans ,in fact the same Americans who ran it before the Wanda Group bought it.How about you go have chat to them because I can guarantee you that there is a long line of people that you would need to speak to before you knock on any doors at the Wanda Sports offices .Then again that wouldn't fit in with you growing list of conspiracy theories related to all things Ironman.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Haha, you're obsessed with me. I noticed a steep decline in quality since IM went Chinese owned. Not my cup of tea :)

Prestigious races are plentiful on the California Coast. :) I don't buy cheap Chinese products.


ThailandUltras wrote:
Amateur wrote:
Cheap Chinese product, no matter how you slice it. :)

ThailandUltras wrote:
Amateur wrote:
Well written article, thanks for sharing it.

Yes, IRONMAN is a Chinese corporation whose primary goal is making money. They will cater to the masses as you said below. That's why you see cars driving out on the bike course to pick up these novices who can't even complete the bike ride.

It's not even a big deal to do a 1/2 iron. Just look at all of the obese people that are crossing the finish line. The full IM is considerably more demanding though, but still pretty attainable for someone in decent shape.

Yeah they are never going to make people qualify for the swim, b/c that would prevent to many people from competing AND it would increase IRONMAN's costs. Remember that this is a greedy Chinese corporation that wants to maximize profits by: keeping its costs low, minimizing paid labor, providing cheap products, and charging a high race entry fee.

Seems to me that the race brand has lost its prestige over the past 5 years or so. I wouldn't buy it again.


As opposed to the greedy American company that owned it before....


WTC is based in Florida and staffed by Americans ,in fact the same Americans who ran it before the Wanda Group bought it.How about you go have chat to them because I can guarantee you that there is a long line of people that you would need to speak to before you knock on any doors at the Wanda Sports offices .Then again that wouldn't fit in with you growing list of conspiracy theories related to all things Ironman.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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It only takes a quick look at facebook Ironman forums to see the issue

"I've just entered Ironman XXXX, but I'm a week swimmer and never swam more than 500m"
"I've just DNF'd at my first IM70.3, so I have entered 2 IM 70.3's and 2 full IMs next year" (one of the 70.3s was 2 weeks after a full IM)

Our society is all about instant gratification, however, people don't want to put in the work or take time to build up to a full IM. I actually think that it is terrible for our sport, doing an Full IM, underprepared, is hardly going to be a great experience, many people breath a sigh of relief that it is over, tick the box, and move on

I think that the answer maybe a 2 tier structure, with nice "easy" events, wetsuit legal lake swim, flat bike and flat run for the people who want the badge, and tougher events, with tight cut-offs, or possibly requiring a qualifying time for people who are looking for more of a challenge
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
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mattsurf wrote:
It only takes a quick look at facebook Ironman forums to see the issue

"I've just entered Ironman XXXX, but I'm a week swimmer and never swam more than 500m"
"I've just DNF'd at my first IM70.3, so I have entered 2 IM 70.3's and 2 full IMs next year" (one of the 70.3s was 2 weeks after a full IM)

Our society is all about instant gratification, however, people don't want to put in the work or take time to build up to a full IM. I actually think that it is terrible for our sport, doing an Full IM, underprepared, is hardly going to be a great experience, many people breath a sigh of relief that it is over, tick the box, and move on

I think that the answer maybe a 2 tier structure, with nice "easy" events, wetsuit legal lake swim, flat bike and flat run for the people who want the badge, and tougher events, with tight cut-offs, or possibly requiring a qualifying time for people who are looking for more of a challenge

Yep,I think it is nuts..

So next week I am doing Ironman Malaysia here in Langkawi and I'm not fit by any stretch of the imagination compared to back in the '90's when I did sub 10hrs.I've done 26 Ironman's plus a bunch of longer triathlons and I know I'm in for a very long day but I also know one thing,I had to swim train.

I know how dangerous the swim can be and how much not training for it can affect the entire day so I have been swimming the house down just so I don't have to be worried about going to hospital like I did in 2018 with pulmonary edema.I've done lots of bike touring so I'll get through the bike and I'm not too worried about a long walk/run but I'll be damned if I'm going to do that swim unprepared.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [ThailandUltras] [ In reply to ]
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Some of you guys need to relax. An Ironman is difficult for anyone. Just because they donā€™t do it the way you ubertriā€™s want it done, does not mean they should not be able to compete.

Basically, under the logic in this thread, no one below the top 25 in each AG + proā€™s should be able to enter. Ridiculous.

People have been doing things unprepared since the beginning of time. Get over it and worry about yourself.
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [yukmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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People have been doing things unprepared since the beginning of time. Get over it and worry about yourself.

-----

you've missed half the logic of this thread then. Because what I'm seeing is that "unprepared" athletes are causing a systematic change in how races handle swims and thus how it affects everyone.


There's no way they can cancel the swim but let the swimmers still do it. And so at some point when your *seemingly* consistently cancelling swims your going to face a huge issue at some point. And I'll stand by the statement that the "one and doners" who do the bare minimum are the actual more toxic group for the health and sustainability of the sport long term.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [Amateur] [ In reply to ]
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The answer is simple for all of you complaining about how unworthy some participants are. Just start your own race. Call it ā€˜Supremacist Long Distance Challengeā€™, make if wetsuit illegal, have every participant certified as to physical condition and ability, but have them submit photos so if theyā€™re overweight or disabled they can be denied entry (would only want the purist athletes in the race). No charity entrants (theyā€™re spending too much time fund raising when they should have been training anyway). And no one pulling someone in a boat, or pushing a wheelchair, serious athletes should be focused on themselves.


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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [2brokenhips] [ In reply to ]
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Why do they never shorten the bike and run portions for us swimmers who might be struggling on these sections!
;)
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [yukmonkey] [ In reply to ]
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yukmonkey wrote:
Some of you guys need to relax. An Ironman is difficult for anyone. Just because they donā€™t do it the way you ubertriā€™s want it done, does not mean they should not be able to compete.

Basically, under the logic in this thread, no one below the top 25 in each AG + proā€™s should be able to enter. Ridiculous.

People have been doing things unprepared since the beginning of time. Get over it and worry about yourself.

No. Wrong. And I am worrying about myself. The people doing the sport who don't know how to swim are the reason that half of my IM races in the last 3 years have had shortened or cancelled swims.

A 2 hour swimmer can still know how to swim, but the person who gets nervous about their ability to finish if it's not wetsuit legal shouldn't be there. It's not a life preserver and shouldn't be treated as one.

Try the ubertri deflection if it makes you feel better, but those people are a danger to themselves and make things worse for me, sticking with your weird rule of only being allowed to worry about myself.

Too old to go pro but doing it anyway
http://instagram.com/tgarvey4
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Re: Two Interesting articles about "Is triathlon going soft" and creating an "artifical swimmer" [MrRabbit] [ In reply to ]
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Or perhaps you had shortened swims because the conditions really were dangerous.

Itā€™s not always someone elseā€™s fault and you are not Phelps.

The poster above is correct - you guys should start a masters swim race with no kayak support. Just make sure you accept the liability should anyone have any issues when a storm whips up the night before. Iā€™m sure everyone who swims 1:20ā€™s in the pool will be completely fine in the 5 foot swells.

I do agree that people should put more effort into the swim when training. Gambling that it will be cancelled is stupid. But there are a lot of life/training choices that are stupid. I try not to make them personally and try not to worry about choices that others have made.
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