I would also venture a guess that the top few (Potts, etc.) swim their times and exit to T1 much fresher for the ride. Kinda like someone who's capable of holding 1:05 (scy) for 1,650. then, swimming 1:10's still pretty fast but to that swimmer "no big deal." Gets through T1 and on the bike never going anaerobic. That's one hell of an advantage, and something that an adult onset swimmer will have to either live with (meaning try to make up on the bike and/or run) or get lucky and find deep down talent for swimming and invest in the work to develop it. No free lunches in triathlon. Pott's et al, have paid for their lunches - many times over.

All the above said; I have the deepest respect for these guys. I just took a look at my AG (50-54) and want to congratulate KW again for a super effort - for a super guy.

Just WOW.

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Ya, I don't see how Sanders can avoid being at least 8:30 back in a non-wetsuit 3800 m swim if he was 4:15 back in a wetsuit-legal 1900 m swim, unless he can improve his swim a lot during the coming triathlon season. The wettie clearly benefits slower swimmers more than the faster swimmers.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Taylor and I sat down last July and made the decision to go non-drafting. He was 30 sec too slow in the swim for ITU racing and too talented on the bike and run to stay in the 3rd pack at ITU with the costs and expenses to do that type of racing as a non-factor. His first race 3 weeks later he beat Jeff Symmonds, Brent McMahon, Sean Bechtel and a few other solid pros. He was 4th in NYC Tri and started to see his niche for racing. Taylor is finishing up his final exams in the next few weeks. He will move to California and train with Paulo and is in a great head-space. He loves his C3 Club connection, Paulo is a great coach and he is young, hungry and has a lot of upside. His focus this year will be mostly 70.3 and any non-draft olympic race he can find. We are obviously very disappointed that the various North American Olympic options (non-draft) have all disappeared.

Agree with your numbers - they might even be optimistic.

For arguments sake (said with the deepest respect and admiration for LS), so he actually swims "only" 8:30 back from the a guy like Pott's @ Kona, I can promise you Potts exits the water feeling like "oh that was a nice warm-up" Not so much for an adult onset swimmer who goes w/o wetsuit sub one hour (at least this year): that kind of effort will take out something from the bike AND run. Of course if the run is in the 2:35 range - things could get interesting!

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I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________

Ya, no doubt Potts and Frodo are much fresher when they get on the bike, fresher plus an 8-9 min lead:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Totally wrong on the second half of your statement.

I watched first-hand.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

thank you to the all ST royalty . . . 10/10 on this thread. provocative & incisive insight and analysis. It's rare and special to get this glimpse into podium performances.

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What are you people, on dope?

—Mr. Hand

the only problem with it, is that 376 watts and a poor 1.13 are so divorced from my reality that I should consider taking up knitting

Brilliant thread thanks Barrie.

Could you please clarify?

Does that mean he wasn't back the legal distance? Or not the entire ride? Or something else?

OP- I'll agree with what Printer said earlier. Good thread and good discussion. Hopefully it helps gain sponsors 'cause this exposure seems to be gaining fans.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Seriously! I can only hold that power for a bit over a minute. Of course I'm in my 60s so I have an excuse, sigh.

I do wonder about the fact that's 23 watts higher than he averaged for his Mt. Lemmon climb KOM, which was a standalone effort over a shorter duration. Makes me wonder about calibration of his power meter.

Regardless of the exact power number, kudos to his coach for sharing so much detail, the dude is super talented, has a really bright future and it will be fun to watch his career. As a late adult onset swimmer, I'll be pulling for him to make big strides on the swim and then he'd be just killing it.

I wonder if he is going about the swim he right way. The description I read - high quality but less volume - doesn't generally work - especially in the ocean.

I don't know the course or LS equipment or what his position is, but I would think that power could generate quite a bit faster bike split.

I wonder if every piece of equipment and clothing has been scrutinized and he has tunnel tested? Rapp seems to be one of the faster riders in the pro ranks on much less watt/Kg power. This is not to knock LS, as he's truly a gifted athlete, but maybe he could squeeze out the extra minutes he needs with free speed improvements.

I disagree that 1 x the gap over 1900 does not equal 2 x at 3800. I suppose there are a few athlete dependent exceptions but I would tend to say it is more than 2x...

Again, if you feel strongly about that cross-check the guys in Lionel's swim pack against IM and especially IM Kona swim times

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Totally wrong on the second half of your statement.

I watched first-hand. //

So Jesse did not ride in the group? Or was he at the front of it most the time? I know he had to make the catch from his swim deficit, but it was less than Lionel's, and from the couple clips we could see of the coverage, it seemed that Lionel was the aggressor in the group til he left it. SInce the coverage was as usual, give us your birds eye view of how the bike went out there, no way for us to know except to speculate from splits..

Thanks for the info Barrie, as a side note the Peach Classic in Penticton has a 5k$ prize for both men and women if they break the course record (Stephan Jacobsen back in the 90's�.IIRC 1:54, the run looks a bit easier now) but no actual placement money.

Interesting story, I hadn't heard of Taylor outside of a few ITU and Junior races. Best of luck.

�.Back to the LS kona swim debate ;-)

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coachbarrie wrote:
B) He is not ready to bike 376 watts for 90km and run fast. But he told me in the car. I WILL in the FUTURE eventually run fast after a bike like that (so I like his attitude).//



Any chance you can share that power file? //




x2

Would love for this power profile to be shared and posted as an article on the front page.... maybe even try to get Jesse's and then compare the two after obtaining accurate race day weights...??

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wovebike.com | Wove on instagram

This is excellent leap for Taylor. Looking at Paulo's development of team Wurtele's the long view in building Heathers run should fit nicely in building Taylor's full SBR. And at 23 who wouldn't want the opportunity to leap to Cali and swing for the fences! Big upside for an amazing talent.

Watch this kid ST...he like Lionel is a big talent plus very humble. And down right a good and funny guy!

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@rhyspencer

Barrie,

Thank you for posting and so quickly after the race. I love this project that is underway and would love to see where it can go. Being Canadian, of course we want it to be headed straight for another Canadian title in Hawaii on the men's side.

With Lionel's power on the bike, will you be refining his position over the next year. We know the engine is amazing but what do you feel or where do you feel that Lionel can improve with positioning. We know that Rapp has a very slick position on the bike and that Lionel might not ever be as slippery but it would be a benefit to be as slippery as possible to save up those watts for the run and of course put a lot of bike course records out of reach for many years.

I do not agree with a lot of what the others are saying about his 140.6 swim times being 2+ that of his 70.3 swim times as that did not translate for me. My IM swim times were better per 100m average than my 70.3 swim times. I believe that his swim times with more open water swimming will translate to a much better swim time sooner than others have said it will happen. I was able to swim better than a lot of guys that were a bit faster than me just because a) I could sight much better than them and could draft much better than them b) I loved open water swimming and could get into a rhythm must better than a pool c) I swam much more open water than my faster buddies. In the summer I was only in the pool once per week and in OW 2-3 times a week. It just worked better for me.

I guess that you just have to find out what works best for Lionel.

I do not agree with a lot of what the others are saying about his 140.6 swim times being 2+ that of his 70.3 swim times as that did not translate for me. My IM swim times were better per 100m average than my 70.3 swim times.//

First off no one is talking about his 1/2 time to a full, that would be a futile attempt to prove nothing. So your personal comparisons are really not valid for this discussion. Now if you told us how far off the pro leader you were in each race, and you were talking about a wetsuit 1/2 to the swim in hawaii, then that might be helpful.


All that really matters for lionel is how far off the leaders he is, period. Since the leaders are most often going to be the exact same guys, or at least guys of similar abilities, then these comparisons are what matter. And the fact that one swim is wetsuit and one not, that matters too. I will agree that it is not always 2X from 1/2 to full, diesel engine guys will limit their losses over longer distances. Sounds like he may be one of those guys. 3 minutes might be stretching it for hawaii though, and 5 minutes would seem to be the everything went right goal time. 5 minutes would put him at 53 on a normal day, which is entirely doable if he gets sorted in the right group early on and doesn't end up pulling the rock group like he did this weekend. Good thing for him in hawaii is that it is a very easy(technical wise) swim, and the salinity is very high(so he floats better). And as i said, he will be swimming against the same exact two guys he just swam with, and both probably pushing the pace.


I think now that Potts has Frodo as a mate out there, he may once again put some pedal into the swim, as they can both ride similar. Other years he is usually alone, and over a lot of failed attempts, he would always just burn up matches that had no return. Not that i think they will stick out there, but if they ride together for 25 to 50 miles, it could mean a much smaller group gathers them up, not the 20+ guys that usually swarm Andy by mile 20..


Gonna be another epic race at any rate, besides lionel there are a few other wild cards. But of course that is the case every year, thats why hawaii is so much fun to watch and speculate on..

Great to see Lionel on the podium and a great result by Taylor Reid (I work with his aunt, so that's kind of cool). A big shout out to all the other Canadians in the Top 10. Brent McMahon (4th),
Trevor Wurtele (5th). On the women's side, Heather Wurtele (2nd), Angela Naeth (5th), Rachel McBride (6th). Great day for Canadian Triathlon.

the problem adult onset swimmers have is that the swim isn't 1.2mi. the swim is 400 yards. that's the race.

Agreed. I was a lousy swimmer and had no right to be a 57 low IM swimmer, but essentially that's what I did - make it a 400 - 500m race, where I would bury myself and then latch on the back of the best group I could find and ride the back of the group for as long as I could!

It's risky, no question. But when it works it works very well!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Great to see Lionel on the podium and a great result by Taylor Reid (I work with his aunt, so that's kind of cool). A big shout out to all the other Canadians in the Top 10. Brent McMahon (4th),
Trevor Wurtele (5th). On the women's side, Heather Wurtele (2nd), Angela Naeth (5th), Rachel McBride (6th). Great day for Canadian Triathlon.

Indeed, great day all around for the Canadian Long Course Crew - 4 men in the Top-10 and if you include Alcia Kaye as a Canadian, that's 4 women in the Top-10 to.

It's looking to be a great year of long distance racing for Canada!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I've had the privilege of watching Lionel race a number of races. The thing you'll NOT see any of in the discussion here and the numbers, and details, is the guy just does not back down - he's the kind of guy that just keeps going. Tells you something that when he feels a 1:13 is a, "blowup", off of an insanely hard bike!

His competitors, the smart one's anyway, should be very worried, because I am guessing the Lionel learned a ton, from his experience in Oceanside!

It's still a long way to Kona! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog