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Re: aquajogging [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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it can be dull, for sure, but it's a great addition to the runner's (or triathlete's) arsenal.

think about the sorts of things you could do for your training if running were as low impact as cycling...


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PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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>>I'm willing to bet that, at age 48, I could whip Phelps' or Thorpe's butt on a 40km TT right now


Ohhhh how I wish we could set this up. My guess is you're not doing nearly enough squats to beat either of those guys.

You might remember a guy named Mark Allen - a burned out swimmer - saw Julie Moss on TV, decided to enter a triathlon that was occuring in a few days, came in 4th overall with little to no training. You might have heard about the only guys that beat him that day - Scott Tinley, Dave Scott, Scott Molina.
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Re: aquajogging [fade] [ In reply to ]
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>think about the sorts of things you could do for your training if running were as low impact as cycling...


Speaking of Mark Allen, I put in the same amount of hours running per week as he did... he just runs twice as fast.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You might remember a guy named Mark Allen - a burned out swimmer - saw Julie Moss on TV, decided to enter a triathlon that was occuring in a few days, came in 4th overall with little to no training. You might have heard about the only guys that beat him that day - Scott Tinley, Dave Scott, Scott Molina.


Or, I might not, on both counts.

What race was that?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: aquajogging [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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how much would you also wager that he is not also twice as gifted?

and what does the number of hours you're currently running per week have to do with how you might benefit from AJ?


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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you can read about it in "The Lore of Running"
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Re: aquajogging [fade] [ In reply to ]
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>and what does the number of hours you're currently running per week have to do with how you might benefit from AJ?


I'm just saying I already run enough w/o adding aquajogging to the mix.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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As a somewhat injuruy prone runner (shin splints) who has been able to increase my mileage slowly over the years, I'm trying to figure out how to get my mileage up even more. I'm now training for the Chicago Marathon and I've gotten myself up to around 40+ miles during peak weeks (including the long run) complimented by x-training on the bike, stair climber (the kind that is like an escalator which I find to be a good workout) and swimming. I still feel more miles will be needed for me to reach my running potential. I mostly run in aerobically (lower end) with a weekly speed session of mile repeats (5K pace) or a 3 mi tempo run. I'm now running 3x or 4x a week during peak weeks. For context on my abilities, I ran a 1/2 mary last fall in 1:29:05 on less than 20 mi a week for a few months, complimented by biking and swimming. I train 6 days a week.

I'm wondering if the best way for me to ramp up my mileage (gradually of course) is to run longer each time or run more frequently. I feel like running longer (i.e. taking up my "standard" run to 8-9 miles from 6-7; anything less than 10 mi is a breeze for me) would keep me healthier because I would have recovery days when I was doing non/low impact activities. Additionally, the longer workouts would also help my endurance. Having said that, I also suspect increasing the frequency of training stimulus (albeit in lower doses each time) would have its own benefits.

Hmmmm.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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More frequency. Elites will run 12 times a week for exactly this reason.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
More frequency. Elites will run 12 times a week for exactly this reason.
I need more socks.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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“IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.”

You group all triathletes in a certain category and assume that every individual has the same physiology and responds exactly the same way to training stress. That’s bullshit. Many athletes respond very well to high intensity training early in their development. Others respond later. And some people don’t. But to take the physiological adaptation to training stress and act as if there is a LSD recipe for everyone’s success is insanity. You assume that all athletes get ‘beat up’ by even minimal forms of high intensity training and further prescribe more low intensity training when they are at there prime when you don’t even know who you are dealing with. What about an athletes individual physiology?

Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.

Civilians, on the other hand; rest when they please, eat whatever and whenever they want, never do a workout that takes them out of their comfort zone, will keep on doing LSD shit and wonder why they suck.

What's up with this ‘Frailty’ approach to training as if it applies to all athletes? Some athletes have superior genetics, incredible thresholds of pain…. have an extraordinary capacity to suffer and an equally extraordinary capacity to recover and improve. But if they listened to guys like you they would never push themselves and they would never improve.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
Last edited by: mojozenmaster: Oct 6, 06 21:47
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.

Civilians, on the other hand; rest when they please, eat whatever and whenever they want, never do a workout that takes them out of their comfort zone, will keep on doing LSD shit and wonder why they suck.


You make a very good point here.

I've been thinking about writing something about this for some time now.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.
Most of the people who enter any of the special forces end up dropping out, so your generalization is not necessarily appropriate. Also the remark about "very few 'miles under their belt'" does not necessarily apply either. I knew a guy who tried out for the seals and he spent a year of specifically planned out very progressive training so that he would be at a physical peak and have the appropriate base BEFORE going into Seal camp. I would venture to say that like the guy I knew, most of the applicants going into such a venture try to have the appropriate level of conditioning BEFORE such a venture.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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>>Many athletes respond very well to high intensity training early in their development.

Whatever happened to reverse periodization?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konaby2008] [ In reply to ]
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"Most of the people who enter any of the special forces end up dropping out, so your generalization is not necessarily appropriate. Also the remark about "very few 'miles under their belt'" does not necessarily apply either."

Exactly right. I've worked with a Seal a couple years back, and have a friend who was a Ranger. They both have stories about the huge attrition rate, you basically are left with only the ones who can take the punishment. Both of them did indeed work up to getting into the program, and now many years after discharge I know the Seal still carries a pretty big workout load (the Ranger does not, he has a fused ankle from a parachute accident).
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]But to your point, he might be struggling today cause his engine's capacity exceeds his running legs. His engine likely allows him to go quite quickly, but his legs are not ready for the pounding.[/reply]

This is another *really* good point here, along with your later comment on the recovery rides. After 3 months of cycling-specific training of 150-300 mile weeks (with lots of VO2 and LT intervals), I came back to running with a much stronger cycling aerobic engine than before. I also was only running 1-2x a week for that time, and guess what? Immediate right calf injury, minor ITB issues, cramping hamstrings, sciatic problems, etc. all due to running faster than I should have been. I'm sure if I had taken it easier coming back to run focus I'd have been fine, but I *felt* cardio-wise like I wasn't pushing it. The plus side is that 2-3 weeks later once I'd eased back in I was running noticeably faster than before the 3 months of bike focus. N=1

Rgarding the casual bike, the morning after a really hard run workout I like to do a casual 20 miler that gets the blood moving and lets me stretch out fully and recover easy. I found this helped me move from the ~20mpwk up to the ST-approved 40-55 mile weeks fairly easily and without injury. I still haven't quite got the hang of the "recovery run."


Mad
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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 You group all triathletes in a certain category and assume that every individual has the same physiology and responds exactly the same way to training stress.

_________________________

No I didn't. Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss this futher. I'm not playing your games on this forum.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Oct 9, 06 11:11
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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"Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly."

That's not true with the Seals, Force Recon and Rangers.

There are very high standards to get into those units. My friends that went didn't go in as a couch potato.

As I remember, I was in pretty good shape when I got out of Marine Corps boot camp, Army Ranger school would have come after MCT which was a butt kicker too.

jaretj
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
“IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.”

You group all triathletes in a certain category and assume that every individual has the same physiology and responds exactly the same way to training stress. That’s bullshit. Many athletes respond very well to high intensity training early in their development. Others respond later. And some people don’t. But to take the physiological adaptation to training stress and act as if there is a LSD recipe for everyone’s success is insanity. You assume that all athletes get ‘beat up’ by even minimal forms of high intensity training and further prescribe more low intensity training when they are at there prime when you don’t even know who you are dealing with. What about an athletes individual physiology?

Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.

Civilians, on the other hand; rest when they please, eat whatever and whenever they want, never do a workout that takes them out of their comfort zone, will keep on doing LSD shit and wonder why they suck.

What's up with this ‘Frailty’ approach to training as if it applies to all athletes? Some athletes have superior genetics, incredible thresholds of pain…. have an extraordinary capacity to suffer and an equally extraordinary capacity to recover and improve. But if they listened to guys like you they would never push themselves and they would never improve.


To a degree I think some of your points are valid, however, you seem to be interpreting Barry's post on one very extreme side of the equation. This is why I really dislike terms like LSD. Using terms like that are completely dependent on the athlete's interpretation of slow vs steady vs fast running. As we know, running 30sec/mile slower can make a relatively big difference in recovery and, potentially, in development too but I'm quite certain that how one interprets LSD to pace (relative to fitness) will vary widely from athlete to athlete.

Personally, for anyone who isn't really time restricted (less than < ~15hrs/week?), I like a max-steady-state (MSS) approach in the early years of tri development (eg first 2 to 3 years). I see this approach as a very slight variation of what Barry is talking about. It's quite easy to execute yet will push anyone out of their comfort zone and will likely find the edge of where they get fried too. However, you're never running that fast -- mostly 'easy' to 'steady' pace. In addition, I don't care who you are or how genetically gifted you are (not), you will definitely improve leaps and bounds as long as you execute your program consistently. Yes, at some point you will probably plateau and mixing things up to some degree will be required. However, there's so much for a new athlete to learn about balance in those early years I see no reason to throw any fancy interval training into the equation.

Of course, so much comes down to time available to train and consistency in execution.

Thanks, Chris
Last edited by: lakerfan: Oct 9, 06 12:32
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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I would also mention that the special forces guys (gals!?) are also usually pretty young, yes, or no!? I thought they were, thus they can handle more due to youth. I'm 42 and might need to try the Seals "lite" program! haha
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [lakerfan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. MJZM likes to troll and play the "toughg guy" in his posts.

I'm not even going to begin to compare the special forces approach to what I wrote. In my original post you'll notice I pointed out the differences in run training to cycling and swimming and the goal of my post was to try to get people to understand that it is different and that MOST people need to train less intensely than they can when cycling and swimming and what the reasoning is behind it.

Special forces training is even more different than swimming or cycling is to running. Much of that training is focused on fatigue and your mental state during stressful situations. Even though the training is, no doubt, extremely difficult, it isn't run training. You can run up and down a sandy beach all day pushing pontoons above your head with no breakfast and off of 48 hours with no sleep and it still won't compare to the type of ligamnet damage that can be caused during a 10,000 meter interval session.

In addition, special forces training is not devoted to developing EVERY recruit. They are interested in seeing who can survive. It's more a process in recruiting than it is in developing people physicaly. They want to see who can survive the training.

As a coach I can do the same thing. I can grab 10,000 people and punish them with insane workouts. The 3 who survive will win gold, silver, and bronze. The other 9,997 people are out of luck. I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that there are different levels of athletes and that the more talented and more experienced can handle more intense training.

Personaly I feel you stand a better chance of success by following what works for 98% of the population. From there you are encouraged to experiement and find out if YOU (the generic you.....not just laker fan) are one of the other 2%.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Yeh , that special forces stuff made no sense at all. I'm looking to run better and stay injury free , I'm not looking to go on any commando missions anytime soon.

Again thanks for the good advice , I've gotten through two weeks so far of LSD running 30 , 33 , mpw. My body is already responding , and I actualy feel fresh. I've been running 15 - 18 mpw all year. I'm gonna build it as high as I can until the begining of the summer and then get back to my usual mile reps.

Thanx again!!!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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You *might* notice yourself getting slower in the short term. Be patient. The payoff comes after you add the intensity back in.

Good luck and let me know how it all pans out.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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How long is this supposed to take, Barry?

I've averaged a season's worth of 4 hour running weeks (6 hours peak week), got on the treadmill yesterday and found I couldn't handle the pace I was running at 2 years ago on 1/2 the volume.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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From what you've said in the past, you may just not respond well to this kind of training (it happens).

Can you give me specifcs? What were you doing 2 years ago and what are you doing now? (also, how old are you? It doesn't count if you are 60 ; ^ ) ). How much different are your paces?

4 - 6 hours? That's impressive!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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