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How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity
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Yes Paulo, I stole your title ; ^ )

I wanted to cover some basics of distance running, particularly regarding LSD versus higher intensity training. The question often comes up, "which is better?" to which I respond, "which is better for what?" You need both! Asking which is better is kind of like asking which organ is more important; your heart or your brain?

You will often see a question posted "how can *I* get better at running?" This is often followed up with, "how much are you running?" and replied with, "15 to 20 miles per week."

At that point you'll see either Desert Dude or myself (or Paulo, Qcassidy, Doug in Co, etocaj, and some others) simply say, "you need to run more"........which is often followed by a really long thread full of debates over the importantce of high intensity training versus LSD.

So, here I am hoping to try to clear up some misunderstandings about low intensity versus high intensity training.

IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.

"But what about high intenisty training? Many elites do lots of it." Yes, that is absolutely true. And YOU should do it too.....when you are fully prepared for it.

Early on in your running career, you will need many months of strictly LSD training before attempting higher intensity workouts. Some coaches suggest even as much as a full year before adding any significant amounts of speed. A novice runner may be best served by running LSD only for 4 months, and then incorporating a 20 minute tempo run once week for another month, and then incorporating an additional 5 weeks of 3-5 minute intervals with 2 minute breaks a bit faster than 5K pace.

However, if the same runner was to do this for 5 years, they will stop seeing improvements. Hence the infamous "More is more" thread. More training must be done in order to stimulate the body to improve. In this case, more training entails MORE slow miles during the base period, longer faster tempo runs during the transition (early quailty, preparation, etc.) phase, and more intense intervals during the sharpening phase. In fact, the sharpening phase may even be extended for a longer period.

And the process continues. To see more improvements, MORE must be done (disclaimer: this is assuming that you were doing optimal training....not over training.)



Now, to further explain this process, I'll go back to the original question. Which is better? The fact is, high intensity training will actualy stimulate more improvement in your running. Yes, now I am saying that high intenisty training is better. There's no argument. A well trained athlete will see their greatest short term improvements during their high intensity phase. However, this phase puts the most stress on the body. A better prepared athlete will be able to handle more stress.

"What do you mean by better prepared?" Someone who has run MORE MILES! Every now and then soomeone will point me to an article showing the high amounts of intensity that an elite athlete is doing and question why *I'd* suggest less intensity. To put it simply, YOU don't have the miles under your belt that HE does. Someone pointed me to a nice article today pointing out that Kenyans will perform 60% of their training at over 90% maxHR during their intense period. However, the article ALSO pointed out that they spent TEN YEARS prior running 100% of their training LSD!!!

So, if I can TRY to give a concrete summary:

Novice runner - MOSTLY LSD with short periods of intensity near goal race.

intermediate runner - MORE LSD. Add 1 Tempo run 3 months from goal race. Add 6K of V02max interval training 5 weeks from goal race.

Advanced runner - EVEN MORE LSD. More intensity during later phases. Later phases can be extended to 4 months and maybe 8 weeks.

Elite Runner (most elite triathletes don't even fit in this category) - More LSD still! Intense training still follows same fundamentals but these athletes may run a higher percentage of their over all training at high intensities. They may also begin adding in crazy workouts that are outside the realm of what is considered fundamentaly correct. They've done fundamentaly correct training for many years. They may need a different stimulous to continue to improve.

Summary: Many of you will improve if you run MORE first, then run harder later.

Makes sense?

** Runtraining10 **

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Jul 17, 07 10:32
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Makes perfect sense. Good summary and well written. Thanks Barry.

So now I can go out and run 22 miles at threshold. ;)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, awesome post. I don't know how many relatively beginner runners I have had to take off intervals etc and told to run more aerobically. At first people have lots of resistance, but then they see the gains.

I like this quote:

"But what about high intenisty training? Many elites do lots of it." Yes, that is absolutely true. And YOU should do it too.....when you are fully prepared for it.


Which is why for most triathletes, I encourage them to do most of their intensity work (in race season) on the swim and bike and just run steady. When you throw in tri sports and then try to hammer run intervals, it just complicates matters more. For most of us (especially the relatively pedestrian Ironman paces), high speed track work is just icing on the cake.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

Good post, particulary how there's no "one shoe that fits all," based on where each athlete is at in their career. Makes it much easier to understand what needs to be done.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

Nice post. I think the all-time best quote to this effect I've seen was courtesy of our own MattinSF, who penned this beauty:



Speedwork is the icing on the cake and you don't have a cake yet.



(I liked this so much I thought seriously about making it my signature line.)



The vast majority of us either "don't have a cake yet", or only have a crappy little sheet cake from the local quickie mart. I'm still baking my cake, so I haven't even thought about any icing yet.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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"So now I can go out and run 22 miles at threshold. ;) "

Actually, combining long runs, with LT intervals can be quite effective. An example would be 6x6 min with 5 or 10min rest intervals as the "middle set" of the 22 miles (15-18 miles would likely be more realistic). You wouldn't do this every week, but it could be used as a substitute for the Sat LT work/Sun Long Run scheme that people like. I like these workouts because they keep you out of the "no-man's land" zone 3--your either sub Aet or your at or slightly above LT for the duration of the run. Additionally, if you can recover reasonably well from these workouts, you know your ready for the pounding your going to take on race day.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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You're baking the cake already?!? I'm just trying to figure out what ingredients I need.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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thanks Barry as a runner(lol) who is just starting, but if i want to do tri's has to get better at running it is difficult to understand where to start with all the info given out by all the people who go fast. i.e just had a customer who has run 3 marathons in my store today and i told him i was running now and my pace 10:30-11:00 his comment was that was really slow. i did not let this bother me as i amtrying to go slow first but much more frequently and i know that my speed will come later. thanks again because this info is what us newbie runners need.

ken
trying to act like a runner
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

Good post, I agree with almost everything. Thank you for your contribution.

Now sit tight and watch how some people will twist what you're saying. It might even already started. I bet you'll need to write a follow-up in a couple of weeks.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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How sure are you that kenyans don't do any intensity as kids? A lot of the euros that went to Kenya for training camps reported that the kids running to school and back kind of race each other all the time...

I think it's completely wrong to assume that west african runners and northern africans only do LSD work for 10 years...they do a lot of intensity early on...very much like swimmers actually.

Speedwork is not icing...it's part of your cake.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [FM.2.0] [ In reply to ]
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Btw...it doesn't mean I disagree with your post...just correcting a little detail...
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I was hoping someone would summarize that other thread, which was all over the place. Very helpful. Thanks

_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Clearly the brain is more important.

Fortunately for me, most triathletes are too lazy to keep their cake in the oven long enough. It gets messy when you try to frost a 1/2 baked cake.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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But I know one guy who only did speed work and he ran a great marathon.................

(kidding)

__________________________________________________

You sir, are my new hero! - Trifan 11/13/2008

Casey, you are a wise man - blueraider_mike 11/13/2008

Casey, This is an astute observation. - Slowbern 11/17/2008
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, great post, Man I love your posts;-). I have a question for you, this may be slightly OT, Where would you put someone who was a runner for 10 years, putting in on ave 20-30 miles a week, mostly LSD work with about the only speed work being races and just some harder runs here and there, who then takes 5 years off of running. Does this person start all over again as a new runner, who has never run before, or do they start with LSD for a few months and then start to add in some speed work. I have a friend who is getting back into running, and wants to get his fitness back ASAP. I have already talked to him about the fact he is 38 yo now and not in his 20's so he will not recover as fast, but I do not know how long it will take him to get back to his 6 min miles for a 10K again that he was at. I guess my question is did he lose all of his fitness and any physiological changes to his body in that 5 years or is some of that still there? Any studies you have seen about this type of thing? Thanks

Mike

----------------------------------
Owner/General Manager North Central Cyclery, Dekalb IL
http://www.NorthCentralCyclery.com
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [TRIDOC] [ In reply to ]
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Ha! I thought you were talking about ME!!! That's eactly what I did.

I'll respon din more detail in a few hours. Wrapping things up here at work.

Thanks for the encouraging replies.



Re: FM - I was pulling information directly out of the article that was posted on the other running thread:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0056b.htm

I was using it more to exemplify my point. More base yields the capability to do more speed.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

Great summery. Thank you.

Running is not that complicated - some people just want to make it more complicated, I guess.

Fleck


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you Barry. This one is a print 'er out-er.

mm
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry - 2 replies to your informative post.
First, clarification:

you wrote, " MORE LSD. Add 1 Tempo run 3 months from goal race. Add 6K of V02max interval training 5 weeks from goal race."
Do you mean per week here? (This might be a dumb question, but I'm not sure if you mean that as a one-time thing or somethign to put into a weekly schedule).

Second, more philosophical issue:
I'm perhaps unusual in this, but I came to triathlon, & running, after years of playing team sports. so over 10 years or so, I'd done tons of speedwork, but very little jogging. any LSD work was on my bike. i saw no reason to stop doing track workouts once i started doing tris. really, it's the wear & tear of jogging long miles that i had to get used to.

-Charles
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Bob Loblaw] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, once per week. I gave a very generic cookie cutter answer. It i sreally meant to be more of what one could typicaly expect to handle and what would probably work well.

Re: team sports - I'm going to use a bit of conjecture here and state that I'd suspect someone like yourself to be able to handle the speed a little more and a little bit earlier in the game. Someone like yourself would really benefit from working with a coach and really try to figure out what works right for you. In the end, the fundamentals haven't changed. You won't become the first man ever to "win gold" off of minimal mileage just because you grew up playing rugby/basketball....etc. At some point you'll need to get the miles in. The easiest way to do that is to back off the speed.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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But Barry, how do I get faster at running without running a lot? ;)

In all seriousness, well put as always. You should think about becoming a coach...

--------------------------

Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [TRIDOC] [ In reply to ]
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TRIDOC,

I went through the same process beginning about 5 years ago. After a couple of seasons of consistent improvement, i tried to step up my intensity beyond what my current fitness dictated I should do. The result was a flat performance.

He will have to start back at ground zero but expect the improvements to come a *little* faster then they did originaly. He'll need to be patient. Though my training was a little sporadic, my comeback was 18:30 after the 1st 6 months, 17:15 after the next 6, and 16:00 after the next 6.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Novice runner - MOSTLY LSD with short periods of intensity near goal race.

intermediate runner - MORE LSD. Add 1 Tempo run 3 months from goal race. Add 6K of V02max interval training 5 weeks from goal race.

Advanced runner - EVEN MORE LSD. More intensity during later phases. Later phases can be extended to 4 months and maybe 8 weeks.

Elite Runner (most elite triathletes don't even fit in this category) - More LSD still! Intense training still follows same fundamentals but these athletes may run a higher percentage of their over all training at high intensities. They may also begin adding in crazy workouts that are outside the realm of what is considered fundamentaly correct. They've done fundamentaly correct training for many years. They may need a different stimulous to continue to improve.
____________________________________

SPECIAL NOTE: I often forget to mention that this GENERIC example is geared toward a 5K/10K runner. A marathoner would see even more LSD where as a half miler would see a whole hell of a lot more intensity.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the post :) I like simple and easy to read explanations of training.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Now sit tight and watch how some people will twist what you're saying. It might even already started. I bet you'll need to write a follow-up in a couple of weeks.

___________________________________________

"Since when has the Emperor not had enemies?"

...............anyone know where I got that quote?

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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So you're saying that Hendrix was a super-elite marathoner then..

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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I LOVE THAT QUOTE TOO! I'm going to write it on a piece of paper and tape it to my wall... and then my roommate will ask me "what the hell does that mean?" (she's not a runner)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [More is MORE] [ In reply to ]
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No, but he was one hell of a blues guitarist.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Barry, at least that will give him something to shoot for. I hope you do not mind, I am going to print of the OP and give it to him to read.

Mike

----------------------------------
Owner/General Manager North Central Cyclery, Dekalb IL
http://www.NorthCentralCyclery.com
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, thanks for the excellent post. When I started 6 years ago I entered a marathon preparation program which featured a fair bit of interval and tempo work. Several of us newbies promptly developed injuries.

Since then I have been a big believer in making injury prevention a priority for new runners and for me that means being careful with speed work.

Sure, speed work can make you faster but it is hard to get faster when you can't run because of an injury.

I agree with the earlier comments that your post is worthy of printing and saving for others to read.

Grant

Grant

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Great, now I just have to figure how much cake to bake.

jaretj
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Good job. Well written so people can (hopefully but this is ST) grasp the concepts.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome post!!!

How much is enough miles though ?

Let's say your a short course guy who's pretty balanced all around.

What kind of weekly run mileage is required in the base phases before hitting the track in the summer for some 24x400's ?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Yes Paulo, I stole your title ; ^ )

I wanted to cover some basics of distance running, particularly regarding LSD versus higher intensity training. The question often comes up, "which is better?" to which I respond, "which is better for what?" You need both! Asking which is better is kind of like asking which organ is more important; your heart or your brain?

You will often see a question posted "how can *I* get better at running?" This is often followed up with, "how much are you running?" and replied with, "15 to 20 miles per week."

At that point you'll see either Desert Dude or myself (or Paulo, Qcassidy, Doug in Co, etocaj, and some others) simply say, "you need to run more"........which is often followed by a really long thread full of debates over the importantce of high intensity training versus LSD.

So, here I am hoping to try to clear up some misunderstandings about low intensity versus high intensity training.

IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.

"But what about high intenisty training? Many elites do lots of it." Yes, that is absolutely true. And YOU should do it too.....when you are fully prepared for it.

Early on in your running career, you will need many months of strictly LSD training before attempting higher intensity workouts. Some coaches suggest even as much as a full year before adding any significant amounts of speed. A novice runner may be best served by running LSD only for 4 months, and then incorporating a 20 minute tempo run once week for another month, and then incorporating an additional 5 weeks of 3-5 minute intervals with 2 minute breaks a bit faster than 5K pace.

However, if the same runner was to do this for 5 years, they will stop seeing improvements. Hence the infamous "More is more" thread. More training must be done in order to stimulate the body to improve. In this case, more training entails MORE slow miles during the base period, longer faster tempo runs during the transition (early quailty, preparation, etc.) phase, and more intense intervals during the sharpening phase. In fact, the sharpening phase may even be extended for a longer period.

And the process continues. To see more improvements, MORE must be done (disclaimer: this is assuming that you were doing optimal training....not over training.)



Now, to further explain this process, I'll go back to the original question. Which is better? The fact is, high intensity training will actualy stimulate more improvement in your running. Yes, now I am saying that high intenisty training is better. There's no argument. A well trained athlete will see their greatest short term improvements during their high intensity phase. However, this phase puts the most stress on the body. A better prepared athlete will be able to handle more stress.

"What do you mean by better prepared?" Someone who has run MORE MILES! Every now and then soomeone will point me to an article showing the high amounts of intensity that an elite athlete is doing and question why *I'd* suggest less intensity. To put it simply, YOU don't have the miles under your belt that HE does. Someone pointed me to a nice article today pointing out that Kenyans will perform 60% of their training at over 90% maxHR during their intense period. However, the article ALSO pointed out that they spent TEN YEARS prior running 100% of their training LSD!!!

So, if I can TRY to give a concrete summary:

Novice runner - MOSTLY LSD with short periods of intensity near goal race.

intermediate runner - MORE LSD. Add 1 Tempo run 3 months from goal race. Add 6K of V02max interval training 5 weeks from goal race.

Advanced runner - EVEN MORE LSD. More intensity during later phases. Later phases can be extended to 4 months and maybe 8 weeks.

Elite Runner (most elite triathletes don't even fit in this category) - More LSD still! Intense training still follows same fundamentals but these athletes may run a higher percentage of their over all training at high intensities. They may also begin adding in crazy workouts that are outside the realm of what is considered fundamentaly correct. They've done fundamentaly correct training for many years. They may need a different stimulous to continue to improve.

Summary: Many of you will improve if you run MORE first, then run harder later.

Makes sense?




------------------------------------------------------------
Searching for the bliss of ultimate exertion.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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"What kind of weekly run mileage is required in the base phases before hitting the track in the summer for some 24x400's ?"

As much as is practical. I don't think you can base it solely on mileage, because for many the true maximum potential is rarely acheved and even more rarely maintained due to the time constraints of 'real life'.

If you're trying to break through on your running, perhaps the best way to do it is to spend some off-season training time building a run focus by taking your total weekly training time, factoring 2 swims and 2 rides as maintenance, and then gradually build up until you are filling the whole of the rest of your training time with LSD running. Closer to the season, you can then try re-balancing the programme and adding, in the first instance tempo work and then, later still, (using BarryP's model) intervals.


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, question for you. I'm preparing for a fast February marathon. I typically do 4 run workouts a week. Intervals, hills, tempo and LSD. Is it okay to incorporate 1 mile pickups during the long steady? (I've been running a long time). Did a 1:31 1/2 marathon and trying to go under 3 hours for a full.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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Thanx , it sounds like great advice. I've been thinking about doing that for a couple of years , but have been afraid to lose cycling prowess.

I hear lots of running messes up your biking big time. I've never ran more than 30 miles in a week and have only done that once . I average 15 miles p/w usualy .

We'll see , I'm gonna try it.. Thanx again
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of how much cycling 'prowess' you keep will probably depend on what you do as 'maintenance cycling'. What sort of riding do you currently do?


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, grt explanation. A question. LSD can be boring. If you carry on a conversation, which I believe should be possible during low intensity z1 lsd, and your heart rate bumps up 10-15bpm but you're not out of breath are you still in z1 and achieving lsd objectives?
Peter
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konz] [ In reply to ]
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Very nice post, Barry.

I might add that once one develops a nice aerobic base, the majority of their "speedwork" should be geared more towards tempo running vs track workouts. Tempo running is easier on the body and IMO, a better vehicle to reach one's highest potential in running. Most non-elite runners run track workouts way too fast early, then fade in the later intervals, leading to poor pacing. I found this out the hard way!!!

Here is a well written article, by quite a respected coach I might add, on the benefits of tempo running

http://www.runningtimes.com/articles/?id=8093

Best

Mark
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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...or, in "Iron speak," you can't sharpen the blade uptil you have forged the steel.

David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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It's all about how you balance your program. Each individual is different. However, for any of us, the sky is the limit.

Several months before your "racing season" you should focus on running "as much as possible." Yes, you still need to fit in swimming and cycling. It's up to you to figure out how much you can handle, how much available time you have, etc. However, because we train three sports, it is really virtualy impossible to run too much.

If you are ONLY RUNNING, and are training for a 5K or longer, I wouldn't worry about running too much until you reach at least 80 miles per week (don't laugh!). Now, and I want to make myself VERY clear here, I'm NOT saying that YOU should run 80 miles a week. YOU might only be able to handle 25 miles per week. My point is that your GOAL should be to continue to increase that number as much as your body will allow.

Now, since 99.9% of us fit into the "80 miles per week or LESS" category, I recommend that you spend about 50% of your training time leading up to your goal race on LSD running. By this I mean if your goal race is in 6 months, the first 3 should focus on building long slow mileage. If it is in 4 months, then spend 2 months in this period.

The remaining period should phase in tempo runs and even some LIGHT track work (ie....6x200 quick, but not sprinting....should fee comfortable).

The last phase will be very individual. I TYPICALY recommend adding in V02max intervals in the last 4 to 5 weeks. I also typicaly recommend that they total about 6,000 meters. This is assuming you have been running around 20+ miles per week for a triathlete or 35+ miles per week for a runner. A more advanced runner can extend this period out as far as 12 weeks. (FYI - I'm a top 2% triathlete runner and only do this for 6 weeks!).

As you gain experience and continue to log your workouts, you should notice a point where your workouts stop improving. THAT is roughly how long you should them for. For example, this year you may plan to do 8 weeks of V02max. The first week you'll notice that you can run 6 minute pace. The next is 5:53 pace, then 5:50, 5:49, 5:47, 5:48, 5:47, 5:49, 5:50. Here you should notice that you really stopped gaining any benefit from the workouts 4 weeks into it. Next year you'll likely want to shorten this phase.

"WHAT IF I HAVE MORE THAN 6 MONTHS TO TRAIN?" I like 6 month build ups to a race. If you have 9 months or more, I like to take the first 3 or 4 months and create a mini peak out of it. Maybe shoot for a 5k road race in December and do a little bit of track work and tempo training leading up to it.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konz] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Your heart rate can climb during a longer run. There are a lot of things that can effect heart rate, so don't be a slave to the monitor. Pace (given normal terrain) is more of an indicator than anything. If your HR goes up but your pace is the same as it normaly is in z1 AND you feel the way you normaly do, then you are fine.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, question for you. I'm preparing for a fast February marathon. I typically do 4 run workouts a week. Intervals, hills, tempo and LSD. Is it okay to incorporate 1 mile pickups during the long steady? (I've been running a long time). Did a 1:31 1/2 marathon and trying to go under 3 hours for a full.
I always thought I was low maintenance, but maybe I'm not....

______________________________________________________

For some people yes. Probably not for you. You REALLY need to focus on mileage at this point. Not speed. A marathon on only 4 runs a week is going to be tough. I'd recommend dumping ALL of your workouts for at least the next 6 weeks and focus solely on increasing the length and frequency of your runs. I have a friend who is likely to run low 2:30. He's been running 70 to 120 miles per week for almost 15 years. He only started adding in workouts in the last 3 months of his schedule. He spent the first 5 months of his schedule just getting used to high mileage and long runs at over 20 miles.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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What February marathon are you doing? I'm doing Hyannis :)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Hyannis as well!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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My long run right now is 20-23 miles once per week. My tempo is usually about 11 miles, couple miles warm up and cool down in there. So, my weekly mileage is between 40-50 miles. I need to get it above 70?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I couldn’t agree with you more, simplicity and freedom to me is one of the biggest appeals to running. You don't need to do any complex calculations or spend hours thinking about how to best optimize your running plans.

I saw the biggest improvements in my running during last winter. I would just go out and run, some days long, some days hard, some days easy, some days a combination. I would let my body decide what pace it wanted to do and I would concentrate on enjoying the crisp winter mornings and the crunch of fresh snow beneath my feet. I ran more just because I was enjoying the escape that running provides from everyday life.

---------------------------
http://www.nunnsontherun.com
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP, very good post - something many have known about for some time but can not seem to grasp, myself included. I had the intentions of running a LSD yesterday of slightly over 1 hour. I would notice my heart rate picking up to my normal levels and I would back off, no matter what I did my heart rate would rise to my "normal" level. at the end my heart rate averaged 157, where normally I am between 160 and 165 depending on intensity.

how low should my heart rate be on a LSD (understanding everyone has different numbers) if my max is 180 and anaerobic threshold "feels" around 170 to 172?

Thanks for your insight.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [trekhilo] [ In reply to ]
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110 to 145 or about 60-80% of max.

At the end of a longer run it may creep up higher.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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sweet! Have you run it before? I haven't... a friend of mine did last year, and said the course was nice but the cold weather was a killer.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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70 might be a bit much for you, but I would dump all the intensity and shoot for 50 mpw....then 55....then maybe even 60 or 65. There's no real need to do those intervals so far out from the race. Elite marathoners can run pretty close to their lactate threshold for the whole race. So, for them, a high LT will be of great benefit.

However, for someone who runs 40-50 mpw, rw endurance will be your key limiter in that race. Don't worry about the intensity until you get within 10-12 weeks of the race.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I have run that course several times in varying weather conditions. It can get cold along the water depending on the wind speed, but if you are dressed right you should be fine. There are a few rolling hills along the course mostly toward the end of each lap. It's a well run race with good support and great food afterwards. One of my favorites.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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are you running it this February too ?
:)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I've done the 1/2. Toughest thing is hanging out until you start running. That's why I stay at the Sheraton, I can roll out of bed and go to the start line!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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oh that's right, the start is at 10am, isn't it? that will drive me nuts... marathons should start at like 5 am IMO

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But I have other races before that :-) What is "rw endurance"? I did a 3:04 marathon (okay it was awhile ago) on about 60-70 miles a week. My current training level is 15-20 hours per week, including 200-250 miles cycling.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah I will be there, but will decide later whether its the full or half.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [RoughOnStuff] [ In reply to ]
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I meant "raw". With all that added cycling you may be fine. Just make sure you are recovering from your workouts.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Being a new(er) runner at long distances I have read many articles and books and talked with a number people on this subject trying to figure out what is the best way to get faster at distances. This is one of the more relevant, clear and concise explanations that I have received. Thank you.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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This post should be nominated for post of the year. TONNES of awesome info. Thanks a tonne Barry.

I wish we had sticky posts on ST.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
70 might be a bit much for you, but I would dump all the intensity and shoot for 50 mpw....then 55....then maybe even 60 or 65. There's no real need to do those intervals so far out from the race. Elite marathoners can run pretty close to their lactate threshold for the whole race. So, for them, a high LT will be of great benefit.

However, for someone who runs 40-50 mpw, rw endurance will be your key limiter in that race. Don't worry about the intensity until you get within 10-12 weeks of the race.


Barry,

Just a reminder that a high LT is of great benefit for every runner, as it is what determines the racing speed for every distance run below and around threshold. The main goal for training is to push LT up, because building "raw endurance" is far easier. Someone that runs 40-50 mpw easily has that "raw endurance", what he/she needs is to push LT up in order to have a fast race.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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<< Someone that runs 40-50 mpw easily has that "raw endurance", what he/she needs is to push LT up in order to have a fast race. >>

So, to plug this into the analogy (or is it a metphor, or a simile, I always get them confused....) of the icing and the cake:

Once you have been doing say 40-50+ mpw regularly for a given time period (I'll leave it up to coaches like you, Barry, DD, et al to specify how long to "bake the cake"), then you can consider doing some additional speedwork, tempo, etc (the "icing") to improve your LT and peak for your race.

In the ballpark?


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I didn't read through all of the posts, but what I didn't see in your O.P. was mention of any type of form work or strides. What if any percent of your run time should be spent on formwork during the base?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [shaner] [ In reply to ]
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you can do strides year round as strides are low stress activity designed for neuromuscular adaptaion to faster paced running than anything else. Same with form work, as long as you know the flaws you want to fix. Doing form work to just do form work is something that may or may not help.

The total % of time spent doing strides or form work will be low compared to the total volume you should be running. You can work on some form aspects ie footstrike, arm carriage, turnover during your run without having to do specific work before AND after you run.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Oct 5, 06 9:48
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Murphy,

Now that you ask me directly, I'll have to come out saying that I don't like that little quote at all. It sounds really clever and funny, but the wrong message comes across.

As for your specific question, the icing of that cake should be read as VO2Max intervals. So yes, those should be done closer to the race. As for the "tempo" or "LT runs", they can be done any time of the cycle, it just depends on the individual athlete.

Did I mention I hate the term "speedwork"?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Paulo, I LOVE your posts!

<< I'll have to come out saying that I don't like that little quote at all. >>

Well, it's obviously a gross oversimplification. Not unlike another catchy little ditty, more is MORE.

<< Did I mention I hate the term "speedwork"? >>

Perhaps for the good of the ST readership, you could prepare a FAQ and list the small handful of things you DO like, since a list of the things you don't like and/or hate would burn up too much bandwidth :-0

Or you can tell me over a cup o' Kona at Lava Java. I'll buy.


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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I'll have a large latte please. At Lava Java on race week that costs about $15. Bring your wallet! :-D
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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<< At Lava Java on race week that costs about $15 >>

Sheesh, even the coffee joints are price gouging. The joys of a free market society.

"Spaulding! You'll have nothing and like it!!!" ;-)


float , hammer , and jog

Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Just a reminder that a high LT is of great benefit for every runner, as it is what determines the racing speed for every distance run below and around threshold. The main goal for training is to push LT up, because building "raw endurance" is far easier. Someone that runs 40-50 mpw easily has that "raw endurance", what he/she needs is to push LT up in order to have a fast race.
____________________________________

Understood and agreed. You and I will certainly prescribe different workouts for th esame individual just as we would prescribe different workouts for different individuals.

IMO, I'd rather see someone in the 50 mpw range 5 months out from a marathon spend more time trying to get to 60 mpw, extend the long run, add a second long run, etc. than to focus on more intense workouts.

However, having said that I'll freely admit that *I* try to get at least 20 minutes a week of LT 9 months out of the year.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
you can do strides year round as strides are low stress activity designed for neuromuscular adaptaion to faster paced running than anything else. Same with form work, as long as you know the flaws you want to fix. Doing form work to just do form work is something that may or may not help.

The total % of time spent doing strides or form work will be low compared to the total volume you should be running. You can work on some form aspects ie footstrike, arm carriage, turnover during your run without having to do specific work before AND after you run.
_____________________________________

Yeah....what he said! ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP, If am going through my base building cycle (months) during winter, and I do my long runs with a group of people that run faster than me ( their endurance pace is probably or close to my tempo pace), should I run by myself instead, or is it good to join the group for 1 or 2 long runs a month to spike my HR and elevate my LT, which will get me faster and able to hold on with the group?



Thanks
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [FM.2.0] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Speedwork is not icing...it's part of your cake.[/reply]

I like cake... are you saying that cake will make me a fast(er) runner?


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Wiso] [ In reply to ]
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It depends on what your goals are. If you really like the social aspect of it, then go ahead and jump in some lon gruns with these guys. However, I'd suggest starting before them, let them catch up, and let them pull away at the end. Remember, during this period, the easier you run, the more you can run. Conversely, The harder you run with them, the less you will be able to run during the week.



Ah, Paulo. Did you catch that? I said Conversely when I really meant Inversely!! Contrapositively, the less you run the harder you can run........that is the contrapositive....but it's not the point I was trying to make........ok......ignore this paragraph.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [shaner] [ In reply to ]
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You can also use downhill running to help with turnover. Ideally, you want a long, slightly downhill sloping hill where you can get going fast with minimal additional exertion. And again, following the pricinples that have been dicussed already, you want to do this AFTER you have prepared your body for this kind of pounding--i.e., you will likely have done lots of strides and other turnover drills previsouly as well as LT and tempo runs of varying distances/times.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I think 4 runs a week is perfectly adequate for a triathlete training for a late season marathon assumming they are still doing some biking and swimming. In fact, I think the long bike is key to success in the final 10k of a marathon because it's the safest way you can get your body really accustomed to constant aerobic efforts greater than the duration of the marathon.

Let's say for example an athlete has completed his tri season training for half iron distance or greater - he should have bags of 3-4hr bike rides in him giving him both aerobic fitness and leg strength superior than could be achieved by running alone. The athlete then focuses for his fall marathon for 6-8 weeks including LSD, tempo/speed plus 2 other runs, a couple of bikes and a couple of swims until taper time.

It's my belief the triathlete is going to be at least as well prepared than he might have been years prior to being a triathlete on a typical 6 day running schedule. Plus he's more likely to get to the start line without injury.

OK, I'll admit it, i am talking about my approach to chicago! I'll let you know how i get on but at this stage I am anticipating a 10 minute PR and certainly healthier than when i was just a "runner"...

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Your post is riddled with common misconceptions about the transfer between cycling training and run training. Some of the things you referred to are not accurate.

I would like to thank you for your post and for the alternative, albeit incorrect, view that it presents.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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you want to do this AFTER you have prepared your body for this kind of pounding-

_________________________________

ABSOLUTELY! Ha, one year our college coach had us do a lot of down hill running in a practice. Half the team was on ice after practice. We told him NEVER to do that again!

I always like doing no more than 40 meters of slightly down hill running.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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Now Paulo, I think he does have some things right. In the end, for someone who is not injury prone, a program of ONLY running will be better than a tri-program. The long bike ride is certainly better than nothing, however it pales in comparison to what extra running will do.

Yes, I think a runner can do "fine" off of 4 runs a week. But it's not the best he can do. *I* only ran 3 days a week in preparation for my IM, but mine was a special case. I sucked on the bike and needed to spend every spare minute on it.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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like i said, we'll see how i get on in Chicago.

Since marathon success to me is governed by strength (particularly in the last 10k) and aerobic fitness, explain why there is no crossover benefit from cycling to running?

Next you will be telling slowman there is no crossover benefit to running/viking from swimming?

*I think* doing long runs the day after a long bike has particular benefit to marathon training because running on tired legs builds strength further.

Note: *I think* - I am no coach, I am just mentioning things I have found successful for me and may provoke some training benefit for others.

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Your post is riddled with common misconceptions about the transfer between cycling training and run training. Some of the things you referred to are not accurate.

I would like to thank you for your post and for the alternative, albeit incorrect, view that it presents.


I would like to thank you for your post (I LOVE your posts!), and for its typical trait of pointing out flaws or inaccuracies in other's posts, yet then never offering constructive criticism of them, or actual thoughts of why you disgree, and what you consider to be correct, or would do differently, and why.

Typical ST posting exchange:

Any poster - " I think blah blah blah"

Paulo - "you're wrong"

lather, rinse, repeat ;-)

It is very easy to constantly tell people what they post is incorrect or inaccurate. Anybody can do that. Offering suggestions, corrections, etc is much harder, and of course it also opens you up to possible critique and criticism. Which is why you never (ok, rarely) actually do that.

I do hafta say, I like the "kinder, gentler" Paulo, even if you are still saying the same thing, at least you are saying it in a much more courteous manner.

Carry on.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[reply]Next you will be telling slowman there is no crossover benefit to running/viking from swimming?[/reply]


I doubt very much that swimming will make me a better Viking... then again, Bjorn is damn quick in the pool!


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
[reply]

*I think* doing long runs the day after a long bike has particular benefit to marathon training because running on tired legs builds strength further.

[/reply]

I have no evidence to back this up but this statement has never made sense to me. To get the most out of a workout and not injure yourself, your body should be well rested. personally, I would think that running on tired legs would be more detrimental physically than helpful. it would be great for a mental exercise though. Logically speaking, to get the most out of your workout, it makes sense to do it when your body will be able to get the most out of it.
But that is just the way I look at it. Again, no evidence to back me up just my warped sense of thinking. :)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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I am guessing somebody didn't see my post under the "Please be more positive on ST" thread where i wrote:

"It's time to start encouraging the posting of new ideas and anecdotes (eg LG rocket) and ignore those that have nothing better to say (by this i don't mean constructive criticism, i mean the 'you are full of shit' type of response without any attempt at a counter argument)."

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1003082;search_string=search_string;guest=9245906#1003082

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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What is your take on PowerCranks as an effictive supplemental training tool for running? This is not to say one should not abide by increasing mileage first and foremost. This would be in addition to. Perhaps book-ending a run with 20 minute PowerCrank sessions on a trainer. They would be used as a supplement to running. For instance, I come from a swimming background. I am working on the running, but I get these little nagging injuries. Over the winter I would like to average 45-60 miles per week between December and March. I do not intend to do much if any speedwork during this time, as it would be the most run milage I have ever done. In terms of physically adapting to the pounding of running, I don't want to mess with doing more milage than that this winter. However, in terms of what my aerobic system can handle, it will not tax me that much, as running 60 miles at 7-7.5 mph is still less than 10 hours per week. In a previous post in this thread you indicated gains due to cycling don't have much to do with running; do you feel that holds true with PowerCranks?
Quote Reply
Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Murphy,

You are right and I forgot one important rule of Slowtwitch: Only those people that have arguments that are supported by scientific evidence and their own extensive experience have to justify their posts. All the others only need to post what works for them, and those should not be contradicted.

Therefore, I would like to apologize to "t2k" for my post and wish him the best of luck in his upcoming marathon.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Flanagan,

I have no opinion whatsoever on Powercranks. Thank you for your post.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I think 4 runs a week is perfectly adequate for a triathlete training for a late season marathon assumming they are still doing some biking and swimming. In fact, I think the long bike is key to success in the final 10k of a marathon because it's the safest way you can get your body really accustomed to constant aerobic efforts greater than the duration of the marathon.

Let's say for example an athlete has completed his tri season training for half iron distance or greater - he should have bags of 3-4hr bike rides in him giving him both aerobic fitness and leg strength superior than could be achieved by running alone. The athlete then focuses for his fall marathon for 6-8 weeks including LSD, tempo/speed plus 2 other runs, a couple of bikes and a couple of swims until taper time.

It's my belief the triathlete is going to be at least as well prepared than he might have been years prior to being a triathlete on a typical 6 day running schedule. Plus he's more likely to get to the start line without injury.

OK, I'll admit it, i am talking about my approach to chicago! I'll let you know how i get on but at this stage I am anticipating a 10 minute PR and certainly healthier than when i was just a "runner"...


It is well established that there is little training crossover among swimming, biking and running. Specificity rules. Especially in the case of biking to running, else you'd see lots of elite runners doing bike miles. It doesn't happen.

Long bike rides (say, 2 minutes or more) don't build leg strength, and certainly don't work on eccentric contractions that occur in running. These rides may have given him superior aerobic fitness...for biking.

Your belief that cross-training will produce a more prepared runner than a strict diet of running (done correctly to avoid injury) has no basis in fact. I'm glad you couched it with "my belief".

Kind and gentle enough for ya?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, how do you address form between tempo and LSD?

I see too many runners where their form varies depending on the intensity (Long runs have slower cadence and tempo has faster cadence). This is where I believe injuries occur. Folks perform the Long Run paying attention to HR and not to natural form. I try to maintain a fast cadence regardless of HR effort (the stride length just changes when comparing Tempo to Long). My Long Runs are faster than the average runner yet I am fresher and recover faster because I am not pounding the pavement with a slow cadence. With this approach it did take me a while to reach the a longer run distances as I adapted.

-Woody
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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That reminds me of the looks on peoples faces when they ask me if I'm sore after the Boston marathon and I tell them..."hell yes I'm sore, those downhills are a bitch!" A lot of people--and coaches--underestimate how tough downhill running can be. It might be "free speed", but it hurts afterwoods.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Dear Flanagan,

I have no opinion whatsoever on Powercranks. Thank you for your post.
Not specific to this post, but how do you keep from tossing your <insert_last_meal> when you type in this style?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Funny how those who grew up using their lungs 2+ hrs a day as swimmers since age 6 often excel as triathletes later in life despite this lack of crossover benefit?

An aerobic engine is an aerobic engine no matter how it was developed. See Mr Armstrong as evidence...

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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"I think the long bike is key to success in the final 10k of a marathon because it's the safest way you can get your body really accustomed to constant aerobic efforts greater than the duration of the marathon."

The long bike is key to sucess in the bike leg of a triathlon. Nutrition, quality and consitency of your long runs, LT threshold training history, race experience, and shear mental fortitude are the key's to success in the final 10k of a marathon.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Ken,

If I reply to your OT post, I will be contributing to the cliquey feeling. As I already replied to one post from ironclm today, my daily quota is full.

But I am looking forward to more posts from you on this subject, and if you so wish, you can include the following link in them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...94&dopt=Citation
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Funny how those who grew up using their lungs 2+ hrs a day as swimmers since age 6 often excel as triathletes later in life despite this lack of crossover benefit?

An aerobic engine is an aerobic engine no matter how it was developed. See Mr Armstrong as evidence...
Funny, isn't it. I'm willing to bet that, at age 48, I could whip Phelps' or Thorpe's butt on a 40km TT right now, and I've never done 2+ hours in a day as a swimmer. Why do you think that might be?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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i don't know about you but my body can't take running > 20 miles in training nor am i going to get more than 2hrs 45 of an aerobic workout by running along.

I do know that I have run an EVEN (slightly negative 2nd half versus 1st)) split marathon SINCE I became a triathlete and introduced bikes > 4 hours into me schedule. That was because i didn't hit any walls after 20 miles like I used to....

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for that informative post. By the way, did I say that I lo...<urp>...

Sorry, can't do it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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slightly ridiculous statement considering neither athlete are even known to own a bike!

I'll leave it to others to comment any further on that as an analogy.... I noticed you didn't take up Bjorn or Lance on your 40k TT smackdown?

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Dear Paulo,

Actually, it would be nice if everybody would justify their posts, but specifically when they are pointing out errors, ommissions, inaccuracies, etc in the posts of others.

Nobody is above scrutiny or reproach. Nobody's word is law. As I said, just saying somebody is wrong (in your opinion, no matter how experienced or considered it may or may not be, and how nicely or not you state it), and then not elaborating on how, why, or what the correct info is, is of very limited utility.

We get it. You are a good coach. You have great experience and have done much research, and have used it in practical application w/ many successful elite athletes. Regardless, I speak for myself (and likely others) when I say that simply pointing out others errors without then offering anything else constructive or corrective isn't of all that much benefit to anybody, except perhaps yourself.

Warmest regards,

-ML


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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I would put forward this revolutionary concept:

Posting anedoctal personal "evidence" is not positive as it may lead others to repeat the same mistakes.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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I did the 10k last year and it was cold...I went back out to cheer on my friends who were doing the half and then I really froze. I agree with whomever else suggested to stay at the host hotel. It was great--and I did most of my warmup in the hotel hallways, staying warm.

-Danielle
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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An aerobic engine is an aerobic engine no matter how it was developed. See Mr Armstrong as evidence...

__________________________________

Actualy Mr. Armstrong is about to provide us very good evidence to the contrary. From what I've heard, he is really strugling with the run training.

Think of it this way. Your body is a car with an engine, a fuel pump, and a supercharger (muscles, heart, lungs). You can spend a lifetime building a top of the line fuel pump and supercharger on your corvette. However, move them onto a Ford Focus and....well.......you are going to have the fastest for Focus in town, but you won't compete against a Mustang. You still need to build the engine.

In other words, yes, the strong heart and lungs will help, but they are less than half the equation. You NEED to build mitocondria and capilaries to the specific muscles that are used.

Again, even if it doesn't "make sense" note that not one single elite runner does any significant amount of cross training.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
slightly ridiculous statement considering neither athlete are even known to own a bike!

I'll leave it to others to comment any further on that as an analogy.... I noticed you didn't take up Bjorn or Lance on your 40k TT smackdown?


You said "Funny how those who grew up using their lungs 2+ hrs a day as swimmers since age 6 often excel as triathletes later in life despite this lack of crossover benefit?"

If there is such a great crossover benefit, then why can't such athletes hop on a bike and excel? Is there something in their swim training that is lacking for cycling success? Does that mean that cycling-specific training is necessary for excellence in cycling?

Put it this way: the outstanding cardiovascular system that Phelps and Thorpe have won't do much good if the muscles to which their heart/lungs deliver oxygen can't use it.

If you are going to argue belief systems, take it to the more appropriate Lavender Room. "Kind and gentle" doesn't apply therein, however.

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"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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 I would put forward this revolutionary concept:

If you have nothing good to say...shut your pie hole.

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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I was offended by your post.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I disagree.

I think it offers an opportunity for others to critique and comment on it, and everyone, including the OP'ers themselves, can learn from that. Perhaps even you. (yes, I said it; it is at least theoretically possible that you do not actually know everything ;-)

Besides, if nobody talked about what they were doing, ST would have about 3 posts a day, and you and Slowman both might have to get a real job ;-)

If nobody ever questioned or debated commonly accepted "truths" and "facts" of training, we might all be going by "X random # - age +/- shoe size" training zones and whatnot.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Phew!, I just farted I thought you were going to say you were offende by my smell...

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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not that Paulo needs me to stick up for him but did anyone read the article from the link he posted? I would argue (sorry...state) that was something good to say.

mark
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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"Triathlon is a winter sport that is merely played out in the summer."
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
not that Paulo needs me to stick up for him but did anyone read the article from the link he posted? I would argue (sorry...state) that was something good to say.

mark
I'm guessing that at least one poster on this thread didn't (but I did: I read everything that Paulo posts, because I, oh, never mind).

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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"nor am i going to get more than 2hrs 45 of an aerobic workout by running along"

Implicit in your repsonse is the erroneous assumption that in order to "suceed" at the marathon distance you need to engage in an activity--be it running, or, in your example biking--that stresses you aerobic system for the equivalent time it will take you to run the marathon. This is a false notion and one that newbie runners often conjur up--i.e. "do I really need to run 26.2 miles in training in order to make it to the finish on race day?" To make my point clearer, imagine a 100 mile ultra-runner that said "well, I can't run over 80 miles in training, but, I can bike for 20+ hours straight."

Your best bet is to re-read BarryP's post and get yourself a copy of The Lore of Running.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]
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Then he had something good to say,No? However as has been pointed out a good portion of his post are "No you're wrong", end of story. What's the point? Maybe he should just ask Dan to make that a sticky for him and save him 20 posts a day. That way if he doesn't respond to a post we'll all just assume the default "You're wrong" post.

By all means if someone is wrong, say so. But please offer a solution to correct the problem. "Hey you're wrong" does nothing, accept to increase post count. "Hey you're wrong, because and do this to do it properly", actually helps people out.

I would think the overwhelmingly positive response to posts from people like Doug Stern, BarryP and many others that post about what they know in a manner that the rest of us "laymen" can understand and disucuss is proof positive it can be done.

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Hi Barry, keep in mind that Mr. Armstrong was running 16 min for 5K off the bike as a 16 year old triathlete. But to your point, he might be struggling today cause his engine's capacity exceeds his running legs. His engine likely allows him to go quite quickly, but his legs are not ready for the pounding. I know a lot of XC skiers with huge engines, coming off winter in peak fitness get easily injured, because it is easy to run quickly because running does not provide their aerobic system with the same load as XC skiing, but in the end, they are limited by the legs and pounding. It takes lots of patient miles to bring the legs up to the cardio for many elite athletes coming from other sports like cycling, XC skiing, swimming, or rowing.

Dev
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
By all means if someone is wrong, say so. But please offer a solution to correct the problem. "Hey you're wrong" does nothing, accept to increase post count. "Hey you're wrong, because and do this to do it properly", actually helps people out.


You're wrong.

post_count++;

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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You mean like the more is MORE posts that I posted?

I can go back and do a search on all your replies to my posts. I would find that you are always very aggressive to me and often offensive (for example in this thread). Most of the times I choose to ignore you, but I would say that YOU never have anything positive to offer.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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totally agree with you - specificity will certainly gain greater success IF it can be absorbed.

BUT, I am suggesting there is a cut-off for an individual (ie me) where "more" in a single specific sport can/will lead to injury or overtraining and at this point benefit can be gained by supplementing cross training rather than sitting on the couch. (which you agreed with yourself)

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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t2k,

Even the link that Paulo posted (which was quite informative, even if the study was 11 years old) mentions that for non-elites, there may be a benefit to cross training.

Are you an elite? If so, you know what you need to do (or not to do).

If not, you know yourself better than anyone else. Make your own call.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"to me "

Yeh I'm usually pretty agressive *to you* and not so much with alot of others. Now are you going to tell me you don't deserve it?

"but I would say that YOU never have anything positive to offer."

And I say because YOU rarely leave anything to be postive about. How do you propose one responds positively to

"Your post is riddled with common misconceptions about the transfer between cycling training and run training. Some of the things you referred to are not accurate.

I would like to thank you for your post and for the alternative, albeit incorrect, view that it presents. ."

Maybe I should have just responded with "Thank you for your post"?

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
t2k,

Even the link that Paulo posted (which was quite informative, even if the study was 11 years old) mentions that for non-elites, there may be a benefit to cross training.
The study says benefit in "overall fitness", not in specific performance.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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T2K, then there are others who can actually do more volume in running when they run and add in some very light biking, vs just running and sitting on the couch. The "recovery rides" do just that, getting the blood flowing and the muscles moving, and allowing the person to resume running volume and intensity often much sooner than just sitting on the couch. You'll even see football players, soccer players, hockey players, and speedskaters sitting on the bike, moving the legs in circles with zero pounding to get them back to performing at full capacity much more quickly than doing that actual specific core sport that they play...go figure!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not a runner, I'm a triathlete and am merely pointing out a way I find my own relative success at marathon running based on a 3 sport training program.

should I just keep quiet because i find boredom and injury comes with single sport focus?

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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No damn it, you're wrong, because I think so. But you could be right if you'd just agree with me.

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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I have a question, why did you get involved in the discussion if not to stalk my posts? I have yet to see a contribution from you on the subject of the thread.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [MJuric] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]But you could be right if you'd just agree with me.

~Matt[/reply]

LOL....Love it!!!!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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wouldn't my "specific performance" benefit from improved "overall fitness"?

Or would it be better with REDUCED "overall fitness"????

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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"should I just keep quiet because i find boredom and injury comes with single sport focus?"

No, I'm not trying to come across in that manner at all. Saying you get bored and could injure yourself with a single sport focus is a lot different than stating you think biking is a benefit to finishing the marathon because it allows you to train aerobically for more than 3 hours. So again, your relative success at marathon running comes from your marathon training, not your biking. If you don't think this is true, then so be it.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Although my contribution may be OT
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=1009666;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;
Seems like a contribution on how people could be a tad more productive rather than simply saying "You're wrong"

As far as adding to the discussion, I'm not nearly the calibur of coach or runner that BarryP is so anything I could probably add would not be to the level of his experiance,no? Or do you suggest I should post something potentially incorrect because you need someone else to tell they're wrong?

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"if not to stalk my posts?"

And typically I ignore your post as they are typically the same "cryptic" response or a simple "You're wrong"

Occasionally I'll read your posts as they are part of a branch. The occasional jab is just fun, for me anyway. If anyone here deserves it you do.

~Matt
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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"your relative success at marathon running comes from your marathon training, not your biking"

To use the report posted by Paulo - the "relative success" comes from improvements in "overall fitness" which is greater than the same running volume without supplementary workouts in other sports.

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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"To use the report posted by Paulo - the "relative success" comes from improvements in "overall fitness" which is greater than the same running volume without supplementary workouts in other sports."

The additional cross training may help "overall fitness".

The report just says that the benefit, to running, will not be as much as spending that additional time actually running.

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Dev,

It's funny you should mention that. About 6 years ago I was playing ice hockey....you've heard of ice hockey, right?......twice a week and then roller blading twice a week. I decided to go out and play a game of full court basketball. I felt so good that I played for a good 2 to 3 hours. MY CALVES HURT SO BAD the next day!!!!

Armstrong USED to be a good runner and, with proper training he can be a good runner again.....but it takes years of running to realize ones potential in the marathon no matter how strong their heart and lungs are.

The pounding IS part of it, as are the specific neuro-muscular responses. But there is also a biological component. The running muscles need to be trained. Their are adaptations that occur specificly to those muscles that do not occur during other activities. Just like the other day when I went canoeing. I had a strong heart, but man was my back sore the next day. My rowing muscles were weak and they pooped out quick!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [SignalStrength] [ In reply to ]
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I think he said earlier that he can't possibly spend the additional time running without blowing up and getting injured/burned out (can't remember the exact wording). Sure specificity rules, and running is the most specific to running, but the bottom line is biking is more specific to running than sitting on the couch :-) Consider bike training as part of building the overall fitness cake...layer 1 of the cake, then layer 2 of the cake is more running, layer three is replace some of that biking with even more running...then we get into the icing that we were talking about in the first 10 posts on this thread.

...personally, I'm trying to fill in some of the icing that goes in between layers...not the real icing, but the glue icing that holds the cake together and gives me just enough leg speed to react to the odd surge of the competition, pick things up on downhills without braking, and generally be light on the feet...the "grey zone 6.5 to 8 min mile speed" (using the word loosely as 8 min miles is shuffling for many :-) ) , that is good enough for the purposes of most of us age group dudes.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, and I bet if Armstrong tried hard enough, he could quickly get back to "faking it though" a 16 min 5k, but you can't fake a marathon...which is why I prefer races that are 13 miles or less. Any longer and you have to have the "real goods" and do the "real training"....cross training can only take you so far. Look at Steve Larsen last year...he beat Reid and deBoom at half Vineman, "faking it though a solid half marathon"....but then when it came to a full marathon at Kona, he was nowhere to be seen!

For this reason, I really liked Mitch Gold's Ironman run approach. He basically said, that if you want to RUN a marathon off a 2.4mile swim and 112 mile bike, then you have to do marathoner training while doing swim and bike training. It sounds really simple, but the bottom line is that it is insanely tough to do 60 mile weeks while riding and biking. But people are surprised that they can't run a good marathon in an Ironman, when they aren't trained for a marathon...bottom line, no free lunch when it comes to running that far, but if your body can't take it or is not ready, then cross training is the next best option!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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t2k,

Unfortunately there isn't a whole lot of literature out there for the injury prone runner. No matter how hard we try, you'll never see one of us reach elite status.

I've had some theories of my own, but even just recently had a long talk with a poediatrist who was a former track star / injury prone runner as well and he had some different opinions.

In the end, your best option for running is to run and do lots of it. If you CAN't, then you will have to live for what is the next best thing. For running it is sessions of aqua jogging. Further down the chain you get into cycling.

So, yes, cycling will help your marathon if it is between doing that and doing nothing. ie 40 mpw running and 150 mpw cycling is better than just 40 mpw running. There is SOME cross over.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, due to the lack of literature, I believe it is nice to hear what works for the so called over injured/underprepared, who have taken different approaches to success. As we know, the variables in any study cannot be fully controlled, so a discussion of real world success might also be valuable. I took 55 min off my marathon PB when I started biking and running vs running alone. Now I can take this stat and make it say what I want.

One could say that all the bike miles were responsible for taking me from 3:43 to 2:48, on the other hand one could say that it was a decade of cumulative run miles from 18 to 28 years old. The reality is a combination of both. All that biking allowed me to run for 10 years without an major injuries cause I could mix up my fitness regime and maintain a good muscle balance, something that pure runners often cannot sustain over a decade of pounding :-) Specificity is great in short bouts, but for most of us, we are simply not built to sustain the month in month out run volumes required to run an even half decent marathon :-(
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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*sigh*....If only I had known this in college.

11-91 to 1-92 shin splints

6-92 to 8-93 tendonitis in both knees

8-94 to 2-95 swelling under knee cap

11-95 to end of college ITBS

Combine that with a bout of mono and a bad case of pnumonia. Lets just say I'm amazed of what I DID do while I was there.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry from 1980-1985 when was only running in high school and college, I battled shin splints, achilles issues and back issues...then when I started biking I was able to actually run pain free (relatively...).

Another rule of thumb....run a minimum of 3x40 min per week all year...as slow as you want. This is the best path to maintain a continuous solid running base, from which it is easy to ramp into a "real program". In the past 25 years there was only one 4 month block where I stopped running (zero running) and I really regretted it. It felt like I had never run before when I resume.

Best way to get in shape is to never get out of shape :-)...that's what my friend Rick Hellard says...he just ran 2:36 this spring and went 8:41 at an Ironman at age 40!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Hey thanks Barry, you've given me a wealth of information to work from.

I knew I wasn't running enough , but 80 m/pw for 5k ? Who knew!!!!

I shouldn't be suprised though, I read about it on letsrun all the time.

Thanx again...

Ronnie
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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To tell you the truth I don't bike or swim much either. I do S 7000 / B 75m / R 15m per week , give or take. Off season I do it slow. In season I do mile reps on a dirt trail w/ 3 min rest ( 5:20 pace ) On the bike I'll ride a 2 1/2 hr ride w/ lots of elevation and 1x20 min 53x12 on a flat road.

Another ride would be a 12m tempo Z 3 - 5 build , and another hill ride w/ short steep climbs where I go anaerobic.

I'm generaly a masher on the flats , I like 85 rpms. I love to climb and do uphill TT's. I weigh 123 pounds.

I seem to do pretty good at short course on this lite schedule , but always get dropped on the run by good runners. I've won one race in my life and have more second , thirds and fourths than I can count LOL.

Hopefully with BarryP's advice I'll learn how to run ???
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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>>run a minimum of 3x40 min per week all year

I went from not being able to run 800 yds w/o pain, to finally being able to run for 1 hour pain-free.

I got a bad URI that limited me to 2 hrs running one week, and NO running the next.

Sure enough, this week I'm back to having pain 20 minutes into the run.

Run durability - use it or lose it - QUICK.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konz] [ In reply to ]
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You should be able to carry on a conversation, you sholdn't actually carry on a conversation.

Styrrell
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In honor of this thread I did my 10.5ish mile run this morning 7 minutes slower than I did it this past Saturday. Now I just need to do this 5 or 6 times per week for the next three months and I'll be ready to train for a spring marathon.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Dude, your post is such bullshit, I don't know where to begin........it is so wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to start. I'm going to go out and enjoy a cigarette. I'll be in touch.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Barry,

Good post, I agree with almost everything. Thank you for your contribution.

Now sit tight and watch how some people will twist what you're saying. It might even already started. I bet you'll need to write a follow-up in a couple of weeks.

-
Paulo Sousa
Too bad for you nobody took your bet...
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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Do you think you could train for 10 hours a week? For the duration of a run phase, I might aim for a maximum of something like:

2 x 1hr swim focusing on good technique and long reps at Oly race pace (200s-750s)

2 x 1hr ride as 15 mins warm-up, 30-40mins subFT (roughly 2hr race effort), 5-15mins cool-down

This would keep you ticking over and generate some fairly useful systemic fitness, and then you can spend the rest of your training time (six hours) building up a running block where you only run LSD pace. Paulo gave me some good advice a while ago suggesting a build up where you run 2 days in succession, then take a day off, then repeat the 2 days running but increase the duration of the runs by 5 mins until you hit 60mins running. So, assuming you start a 15 mins, which I would, your run programme would go:

15, 15, Day off, 20, 20, Day off, 25, 25 ,Day off, 30, 30, Day off, 35, 35, Day off, 40, 40, Day off, 45, 45, Day off etc

As a final note I would suggest you schedule swims not rides on your non-running days, always get your run done before your ride when you're doing both on the same day. So, a week might be:

M = Run am

T = Run am, Ride pm

W = Swim

Th = Run am

F = Run am, Ride pm

S = Swim

Su = Run am

and so on...


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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Looks like a good way not to get injured too , thanks....
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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Ronnieg,

I can't remember what your original question was, but it seems like you are concerned about injury. To get better at running, your first goal is to push up to, but not beyond, a level that your body can withstand. 6 hours of running may be too much. But maybe you can build to 4 hours. What fade showed is a very realistic program for a lot of people. Whether or not you are one of them is something you have to figure out for yourself.

You can always mix in sessions of aqua jogging to increase your overall run volume. I'm doing mine today at lunch!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Ah yes, aquajogging the not-so-dirty little secret of many great runners.

aquajogging can do useful things when used in marathon preps, too....


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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I only wish I believed in it 15 years ago.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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aquajogging [ In reply to ]
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Swimming in the pool is boring enough.

I'd rather aquabike if I was forced to running in place in the pool.
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Re: aquajogging [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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it can be dull, for sure, but it's a great addition to the runner's (or triathlete's) arsenal.

think about the sorts of things you could do for your training if running were as low impact as cycling...


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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>>I'm willing to bet that, at age 48, I could whip Phelps' or Thorpe's butt on a 40km TT right now


Ohhhh how I wish we could set this up. My guess is you're not doing nearly enough squats to beat either of those guys.

You might remember a guy named Mark Allen - a burned out swimmer - saw Julie Moss on TV, decided to enter a triathlon that was occuring in a few days, came in 4th overall with little to no training. You might have heard about the only guys that beat him that day - Scott Tinley, Dave Scott, Scott Molina.
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Re: aquajogging [fade] [ In reply to ]
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>think about the sorts of things you could do for your training if running were as low impact as cycling...


Speaking of Mark Allen, I put in the same amount of hours running per week as he did... he just runs twice as fast.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
You might remember a guy named Mark Allen - a burned out swimmer - saw Julie Moss on TV, decided to enter a triathlon that was occuring in a few days, came in 4th overall with little to no training. You might have heard about the only guys that beat him that day - Scott Tinley, Dave Scott, Scott Molina.


Or, I might not, on both counts.

What race was that?

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: aquajogging [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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how much would you also wager that he is not also twice as gifted?

and what does the number of hours you're currently running per week have to do with how you might benefit from AJ?


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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you can read about it in "The Lore of Running"
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Re: aquajogging [fade] [ In reply to ]
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>and what does the number of hours you're currently running per week have to do with how you might benefit from AJ?


I'm just saying I already run enough w/o adding aquajogging to the mix.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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As a somewhat injuruy prone runner (shin splints) who has been able to increase my mileage slowly over the years, I'm trying to figure out how to get my mileage up even more. I'm now training for the Chicago Marathon and I've gotten myself up to around 40+ miles during peak weeks (including the long run) complimented by x-training on the bike, stair climber (the kind that is like an escalator which I find to be a good workout) and swimming. I still feel more miles will be needed for me to reach my running potential. I mostly run in aerobically (lower end) with a weekly speed session of mile repeats (5K pace) or a 3 mi tempo run. I'm now running 3x or 4x a week during peak weeks. For context on my abilities, I ran a 1/2 mary last fall in 1:29:05 on less than 20 mi a week for a few months, complimented by biking and swimming. I train 6 days a week.

I'm wondering if the best way for me to ramp up my mileage (gradually of course) is to run longer each time or run more frequently. I feel like running longer (i.e. taking up my "standard" run to 8-9 miles from 6-7; anything less than 10 mi is a breeze for me) would keep me healthier because I would have recovery days when I was doing non/low impact activities. Additionally, the longer workouts would also help my endurance. Having said that, I also suspect increasing the frequency of training stimulus (albeit in lower doses each time) would have its own benefits.

Hmmmm.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [denali2001] [ In reply to ]
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More frequency. Elites will run 12 times a week for exactly this reason.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
More frequency. Elites will run 12 times a week for exactly this reason.
I need more socks.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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“IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.”

You group all triathletes in a certain category and assume that every individual has the same physiology and responds exactly the same way to training stress. That’s bullshit. Many athletes respond very well to high intensity training early in their development. Others respond later. And some people don’t. But to take the physiological adaptation to training stress and act as if there is a LSD recipe for everyone’s success is insanity. You assume that all athletes get ‘beat up’ by even minimal forms of high intensity training and further prescribe more low intensity training when they are at there prime when you don’t even know who you are dealing with. What about an athletes individual physiology?

Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.

Civilians, on the other hand; rest when they please, eat whatever and whenever they want, never do a workout that takes them out of their comfort zone, will keep on doing LSD shit and wonder why they suck.

What's up with this ‘Frailty’ approach to training as if it applies to all athletes? Some athletes have superior genetics, incredible thresholds of pain…. have an extraordinary capacity to suffer and an equally extraordinary capacity to recover and improve. But if they listened to guys like you they would never push themselves and they would never improve.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
Last edited by: mojozenmaster: Oct 6, 06 21:47
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.

Civilians, on the other hand; rest when they please, eat whatever and whenever they want, never do a workout that takes them out of their comfort zone, will keep on doing LSD shit and wonder why they suck.


You make a very good point here.

I've been thinking about writing something about this for some time now.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.
Most of the people who enter any of the special forces end up dropping out, so your generalization is not necessarily appropriate. Also the remark about "very few 'miles under their belt'" does not necessarily apply either. I knew a guy who tried out for the seals and he spent a year of specifically planned out very progressive training so that he would be at a physical peak and have the appropriate base BEFORE going into Seal camp. I would venture to say that like the guy I knew, most of the applicants going into such a venture try to have the appropriate level of conditioning BEFORE such a venture.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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>>Many athletes respond very well to high intensity training early in their development.

Whatever happened to reverse periodization?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [konaby2008] [ In reply to ]
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"Most of the people who enter any of the special forces end up dropping out, so your generalization is not necessarily appropriate. Also the remark about "very few 'miles under their belt'" does not necessarily apply either."

Exactly right. I've worked with a Seal a couple years back, and have a friend who was a Ranger. They both have stories about the huge attrition rate, you basically are left with only the ones who can take the punishment. Both of them did indeed work up to getting into the program, and now many years after discharge I know the Seal still carries a pretty big workout load (the Ranger does not, he has a fused ankle from a parachute accident).
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [devashish paul] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]But to your point, he might be struggling today cause his engine's capacity exceeds his running legs. His engine likely allows him to go quite quickly, but his legs are not ready for the pounding.[/reply]

This is another *really* good point here, along with your later comment on the recovery rides. After 3 months of cycling-specific training of 150-300 mile weeks (with lots of VO2 and LT intervals), I came back to running with a much stronger cycling aerobic engine than before. I also was only running 1-2x a week for that time, and guess what? Immediate right calf injury, minor ITB issues, cramping hamstrings, sciatic problems, etc. all due to running faster than I should have been. I'm sure if I had taken it easier coming back to run focus I'd have been fine, but I *felt* cardio-wise like I wasn't pushing it. The plus side is that 2-3 weeks later once I'd eased back in I was running noticeably faster than before the 3 months of bike focus. N=1

Rgarding the casual bike, the morning after a really hard run workout I like to do a casual 20 miler that gets the blood moving and lets me stretch out fully and recover easy. I found this helped me move from the ~20mpwk up to the ST-approved 40-55 mile weeks fairly easily and without injury. I still haven't quite got the hang of the "recovery run."


Mad
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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 You group all triathletes in a certain category and assume that every individual has the same physiology and responds exactly the same way to training stress.

_________________________

No I didn't. Feel free to PM me if you wish to discuss this futher. I'm not playing your games on this forum.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Oct 9, 06 11:11
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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"Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly."

That's not true with the Seals, Force Recon and Rangers.

There are very high standards to get into those units. My friends that went didn't go in as a couch potato.

As I remember, I was in pretty good shape when I got out of Marine Corps boot camp, Army Ranger school would have come after MCT which was a butt kicker too.

jaretj
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
“IMO, THE number one benefit to low intensity training is that it minimizes the amount of stress you put on your body, thus allowing you to do MORE running. Running, unlike cycling and swimming, is a high impact activity. IT BEATS YOU UP! You need to, among other things, build up your body's tolerance to the activity.”

You group all triathletes in a certain category and assume that every individual has the same physiology and responds exactly the same way to training stress. That’s bullshit. Many athletes respond very well to high intensity training early in their development. Others respond later. And some people don’t. But to take the physiological adaptation to training stress and act as if there is a LSD recipe for everyone’s success is insanity. You assume that all athletes get ‘beat up’ by even minimal forms of high intensity training and further prescribe more low intensity training when they are at there prime when you don’t even know who you are dealing with. What about an athletes individual physiology?

Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.

Civilians, on the other hand; rest when they please, eat whatever and whenever they want, never do a workout that takes them out of their comfort zone, will keep on doing LSD shit and wonder why they suck.

What's up with this ‘Frailty’ approach to training as if it applies to all athletes? Some athletes have superior genetics, incredible thresholds of pain…. have an extraordinary capacity to suffer and an equally extraordinary capacity to recover and improve. But if they listened to guys like you they would never push themselves and they would never improve.


To a degree I think some of your points are valid, however, you seem to be interpreting Barry's post on one very extreme side of the equation. This is why I really dislike terms like LSD. Using terms like that are completely dependent on the athlete's interpretation of slow vs steady vs fast running. As we know, running 30sec/mile slower can make a relatively big difference in recovery and, potentially, in development too but I'm quite certain that how one interprets LSD to pace (relative to fitness) will vary widely from athlete to athlete.

Personally, for anyone who isn't really time restricted (less than < ~15hrs/week?), I like a max-steady-state (MSS) approach in the early years of tri development (eg first 2 to 3 years). I see this approach as a very slight variation of what Barry is talking about. It's quite easy to execute yet will push anyone out of their comfort zone and will likely find the edge of where they get fried too. However, you're never running that fast -- mostly 'easy' to 'steady' pace. In addition, I don't care who you are or how genetically gifted you are (not), you will definitely improve leaps and bounds as long as you execute your program consistently. Yes, at some point you will probably plateau and mixing things up to some degree will be required. However, there's so much for a new athlete to learn about balance in those early years I see no reason to throw any fancy interval training into the equation.

Of course, so much comes down to time available to train and consistency in execution.

Thanks, Chris
Last edited by: lakerfan: Oct 9, 06 12:32
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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I would also mention that the special forces guys (gals!?) are also usually pretty young, yes, or no!? I thought they were, thus they can handle more due to youth. I'm 42 and might need to try the Seals "lite" program! haha
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [lakerfan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks. MJZM likes to troll and play the "toughg guy" in his posts.

I'm not even going to begin to compare the special forces approach to what I wrote. In my original post you'll notice I pointed out the differences in run training to cycling and swimming and the goal of my post was to try to get people to understand that it is different and that MOST people need to train less intensely than they can when cycling and swimming and what the reasoning is behind it.

Special forces training is even more different than swimming or cycling is to running. Much of that training is focused on fatigue and your mental state during stressful situations. Even though the training is, no doubt, extremely difficult, it isn't run training. You can run up and down a sandy beach all day pushing pontoons above your head with no breakfast and off of 48 hours with no sleep and it still won't compare to the type of ligamnet damage that can be caused during a 10,000 meter interval session.

In addition, special forces training is not devoted to developing EVERY recruit. They are interested in seeing who can survive. It's more a process in recruiting than it is in developing people physicaly. They want to see who can survive the training.

As a coach I can do the same thing. I can grab 10,000 people and punish them with insane workouts. The 3 who survive will win gold, silver, and bronze. The other 9,997 people are out of luck. I thought I was pretty clear about the fact that there are different levels of athletes and that the more talented and more experienced can handle more intense training.

Personaly I feel you stand a better chance of success by following what works for 98% of the population. From there you are encouraged to experiement and find out if YOU (the generic you.....not just laker fan) are one of the other 2%.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Yeh , that special forces stuff made no sense at all. I'm looking to run better and stay injury free , I'm not looking to go on any commando missions anytime soon.

Again thanks for the good advice , I've gotten through two weeks so far of LSD running 30 , 33 , mpw. My body is already responding , and I actualy feel fresh. I've been running 15 - 18 mpw all year. I'm gonna build it as high as I can until the begining of the summer and then get back to my usual mile reps.

Thanx again!!!
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [ronnieg] [ In reply to ]
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You *might* notice yourself getting slower in the short term. Be patient. The payoff comes after you add the intensity back in.

Good luck and let me know how it all pans out.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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How long is this supposed to take, Barry?

I've averaged a season's worth of 4 hour running weeks (6 hours peak week), got on the treadmill yesterday and found I couldn't handle the pace I was running at 2 years ago on 1/2 the volume.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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From what you've said in the past, you may just not respond well to this kind of training (it happens).

Can you give me specifcs? What were you doing 2 years ago and what are you doing now? (also, how old are you? It doesn't count if you are 60 ; ^ ) ). How much different are your paces?

4 - 6 hours? That's impressive!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Pre running - road biker.

1st year - 3 x 30 minutes on treadmill, 10:00/mile pace, would occasionally kick it up to 7:00/m or 8:00/m.

2nd year - 5 x 25 minutes, easy, unknown pace (just a loop around the 'hood for fitness, no other training due to other commitments).

3rd year - this year, started running every day, sometimes twice a day. Consistently was hitting 6 x 45min. Running is/was done with a baby jogger.

I got on the treadmill yesterday and 10:00/mile was killing me. This is no good!

Should I just keep bumping up the speed on the treadmill over the winter? I'm thinking maybe every 6 weeks bump it up .5mph?
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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NOTE: I have no formal training or coaching references whatsoever, so you get what you pay for.

However, I am going to chime in and say that it is my understanding that certain muscle types are not stimulated at lower intensities.

If you look at a plan that Daniels suggests the initial phase where all runs are easy is intended to get one back into the routine of running on a regular basis after a several week lay-off. After two or three weeks you immediately move into some types of "Quality" work.

So keep doing your 10 min/mile runs, but add some 30 sec strides once in a while. Start with a couple, work your way up to 10-12. There are other low-stress types of ways to add in some intensity also.

----------------------------------------------------
Note to self: increase training load.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Many applicants to Navy Seals, Marine Recon, Army Rangers go from being schmucks to bad motherfuckers in less than 6 months. And they don’t get to where they are in that short period of time by ‘minimizing the amount of stress they put on there bodies,’ and these dudes have none or very few “miles under their belt” They don’t get much rest, they don’t eat very well, but they are continually overloaded with intense, prolonged physical exertion within the first eight weeks……….and they all adapt very quickly.
I'll reiterate that false statement. I was in the one of the WORST shapes of my life coming out of Ranger school. Weighed nothing, didn't eat/sleep well. Basically more mentally challenging than anything - and, as has been mentioned, these people are generally much younger and have been "pre-screened" so to speak. I punish my body a whole lot more for marathon and/or IM training.

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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I'll reiterate that false statement. I was in the one of the WORST shapes of my life coming out of Ranger school. Weighed nothing, didn't eat/sleep well. Basically more mentally challenging than anything - and, as has been mentioned, these people are generally much younger and have been "pre-screened" so to speak. I punish my body a whole lot more for marathon and/or IM training.
___________________________________________________________________

He he he. It sure is nice when someone who actualy knows what they are talking about chimes in ; ^ )

Thanks.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [el fuser] [ In reply to ]
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If you are feeling sluggish during your runs you may want to back off on the mileage a bit. It sounds like you are doing alot more than in previous years.

If you are feeling fresh but still running slow, add in the two following workouts once a week.

1) a 20 minute tempo run. This will be "comfortably hard." It will probably be 8 to 9 minutes a mile on the tread mill. Don't race it. You should feel like you could do the workout twice.

2) 6x40 seconds with 1 minute jogs in between. These will be very fast, but not sprinting. You may respond well to these since, if I remember correctly, you come from an anaerobic sport background.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I'll give them a shot. I'm hoping that maybe I just have some residual fatigue built up or something and yesterday was a fluke.
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Btw, I thought it was definitely one of the better posts on this forum. It reminded me of an e-mail exchange I had with Chris Hauth about his coaching philosophy -- I felt it applied the same type of principles he applies to his overall IM training program. Just makes a lot of sense to me...

Thanks, Chris
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry,

Regarding feeling "sluggish" on the run, how do you explain this:

- I've been running exclusively the last 5 weeks.

- My weekly running volume of exclusive easy run has been: 55-56-65-75-80 km

- The week I've felt better running has been last week.

- Average pace was also distinctively up last week (the week of more volume).
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I know what I'm talking about. I spent 9 years in the Marine Corps. Infantry the entire time. 2/7. 1982-1991. Super squads, ANGLICO, ROK Ranger school, etc etc My brother was a Ranger too. He was in the 82nd ABN. I got him invited to The USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport, CA. We spent 4 weeks at the Mountain Leaders Course together. We both agreed that it was the ass kicking of a lifetime. If there are a few guys on this forum who got their asses kicked a little too hard (I didn’t see any whining from former Marines….Hmmmmm?) that’s too bad……it’s actually good…..it’s just too bad they don’t know what is good for them. For the vast majority of Marines, Rangers, Seals and SF guys, this training is the transformation of a lifetime. A few might think they’re in the worse shape of their lives after the initial training, No shit!! Who is ready to race an Ironman the day after racing an Ironman? It’s the long term development that matters. I am a bad MF’R today because of the cumulative effect of all that I did in the Marines.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Just sent you a PM Bro :-)


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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LOL! That sounds exactly like a reply I would expect from a Marine. I hope you don't tell your "war stories" over and over while drunk as well :) The training war stories are even better still :0

I don't keep my coin with me anymore, so I'll buy your drink if you spin yours down on the bar and I'm there.

Thank you for not disappointing!

Semper Fi ...

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are getting in shape ( I also think you measure in km to feel like you are training harder than you actualy are ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP - so as i sit here effing sore from the pounding i gave myself yesterday in chicago and i have to say i needed more running volume! The 3-4 runs per week got me the speed but boy did i suffer in that last 10k!

the race went like this:
-1:27:x half
-2:14:4 20m
-explosion of hip (reason why i was keeping my run volume down) and quad overload!
-3:05:05 finish. (6 or 7minute loss over final 10k!)

don't get me wrong - i am well pleased with the result - a PR by 5 and change (NYC 2000) but what might it have been had i had to endurance to maintain pace as i have in the past? If I choose to race an open marathon again i will add at least another 10 miles to my core week mileage and probably another 15mins or so to my longest run - it's just too damn painful forcing that last 2 miles into a ragin headwind!

PS putting on 5lbs in the last month probably didn't help either!

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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I thought I just read in my running magazine that for every pound one puts it, it puts like 5 lbs of pressure on the knees, and 26 lbs on the feet. What ever the numbers where, it sure got my eyes big. Answers why the top runners seem to be so thin.

Dave

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Last edited by: h2ofun: Oct 23, 06 18:24
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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that's an interesting thought...you know i did opt for lightweight trainers this time over running flats and my feet were still killing me all last night after the race!

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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How long were your long runs and how many did you do? (mileage and time).

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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in reverse chronological order by week (last one 2 weeks before race):
  • 13 - 1:40;
  • 18 - 2:30;
  • 18 - 2:30;
  • (olympic tri - no long run);
  • 14 - 1:47;
  • 17.5 - 2:25;
  • 13.1 (1:40 - half ironman).


Prior to that 3 or 4 runs > 10-15 miles to get in half iron shape.

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [t2k] [ In reply to ]
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in reverse chronological order by week (last one 2 weeks before race):
  • 13 - 1:40;
  • 18 - 2:30;
  • 18 - 2:30;
  • (olympic tri - no long run);
  • 14 - 1:47;
  • 17.5 - 2:25;
  • 13.1 (1:40 - half ironman).




Prior to that 3 or 4 runs > 10-15 miles to get in half iron shape.
______________________________________________________________________

That may have been the best you could do given your level of fitness. Typicaly it takes a long time to prepare the body to NOT break down in the last 6 miles of the marathon. Three 2 1/2 hour runs is pleanty if you are looking to "run" a marathon. However, if you want to "race" it, you're a little behind in the training.

My former college coach recently said, "It's not how far your longest run is that matters. It's the number of 20+ milers you get in."

For some people, it takes everything they have just to finish ONE 20 miler. For them, they want to build up to that distance just a few weeks before their marathon. However, as they get better over the years, the eventual goal should be to run a 20+ miler every other week for a few months.

So, my point is, for your next marathon, definitely run more and more often, but also try to get into long run shape a little sooner and run them for a few more weeks.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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My former college coach recently said, "It's not how far your longest run is that matters. It's the number of 20+ milers you get in."

That sounds very similar to a maxim often repeated bu RWUK Coaching Editor Bruce Tulloh, which was that if your 5 longest runs add up to 100 miles, the distance aspect of the marathon should present no problems.

Of course, he did tend to think in terms of distance and to forget somewhat the variable nature of the RW readership...


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
Last edited by: fade: Oct 24, 06 7:29
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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It's always up to the reader to figure out how it applies to themselves. ie..I don't the the OP.....wait........*I'm* the OP........I mean, the guy with the question 3 posts back......I don't think HE should shoot for five 20 milers. Instead I think he should shot for five runs of 18 miles or longer with 14 milers on the in between weeks.

That's the hardest part about answering running questions. The audience IS variable......much like cookie cutter training plans are. That's why I try my best to both "educate" people about running AND "educate" myself (by reading others' posts) about triathlon. From there, hopefuly informed decisions can be made.

One of my first posts on this board was about how disapointed I was about triathlon books. They seem to jump right to giving you a training schedule without any real rhyme or reason behind what's in it.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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thanks - i have definitely learned my lesson! i think i "lost respect" for the distance after a couple of ironmans and forgot just how much "racing" a marathon takes out of you.

-----------------------------------------------
www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed. Very often, when writing about training for marathons in particular, one finds oneself stuck between wanting to give the best advice (build up your running frequency, then volume, then long run, don't go from nothing to a marathon in less than 12 months) and giving advice based on the real world where people do try to race a marathon as their first race, do try to do it off no more than three runs a week, want to run 20s even when their race pace is 12min/mile etc etc. This was an annual battle at RWUK because there was a prevailing opinion that all runners were going to have to run 26.2 miles come race day, and so all should run 20-22 miles in training as preparation. (There was also the fact that the schedules always began in the January issue for a mid-April marathon, and always focused on a simultaneous mix of increasing long runs, tempo and speedwork, I could go on...)

So, to summarise, I don't think that he should do 5 20s in a row either, I think 10 weeks alternating 2.5hr runs and no longer than 2hr runs would probably do.

I think that much of what we do in training also depends on what resources are available. Many club runners in the UK will include 20s and even 22s in their pre spring marathon training simply because there are a number of pre London 20-mile races (Bramley, Thanet, a hilly 21 at Cranleigh) ON TOP OF a couple of 1/2s. IF I get into London this year I will certainly be using these 20s as alternatives for my long runs, but then my LSD pace is around 7:30/mile...

Here's my tentative plan (I'll flesh it out if I get a place):

STEP 1: rebuild frequency/volume until the week contains 5 x 60mins LSD
STEP 2: build aerobic conditioning with tempo running (mileage remains constant, % FS increases)
STEP 3: build race specific durability/nutrition with a long run protocol (FS mileage reains constant, long run increases volume)
STEP 4: address race specific fitness with a couple of decent half-marathons and some hilly tempo runs
STEP 5: taper and race

What do you think?


Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [fade] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like gold!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: How can YOU get faster at running - LSD vrs intensity [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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"Barry, awesome post. I don't know how many relatively beginner runners I have had to take off intervals etc and told to run more aerobically. At first people have lots of resistance, but then they see the gains."

"Which is why for most triathletes, I encourage them to do most of their intensity work (in race season) on the swim and bike and just run steady. When you throw in tri sports and then try to hammer run intervals, it just complicates matters more. For most of us (especially the relatively pedestrian Ironman paces), high speed track work is just icing on the cake."


Paul - I think this advice could also apply to an aging triathlete as well. As a 52 year old triathlete that's pretty beat up, I can't do big mileage anymore - or hard interval training. Every run I do could be my last, so my strategy is to do very high frequency - pretty much every day - but pretty short - usually around 4 miles. I do plenty of mileage AND intensity in the pool and on the bike.

I wonder how many older triathletes give up on the sport because their knees can't handle long runs and intervals, when in fact a little jogging everyday has kept me pretty competitive.

Geoff from Indy
http://www.tlcendurance.com
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