I think 4 runs a week is perfectly adequate for a triathlete training for a late season marathon assumming they are still doing some biking and swimming. In fact, I think the long bike is key to success in the final 10k of a marathon because it's the safest way you can get your body really accustomed to constant aerobic efforts greater than the duration of the marathon.

Let's say for example an athlete has completed his tri season training for half iron distance or greater - he should have bags of 3-4hr bike rides in him giving him both aerobic fitness and leg strength superior than could be achieved by running alone. The athlete then focuses for his fall marathon for 6-8 weeks including LSD, tempo/speed plus 2 other runs, a couple of bikes and a couple of swims until taper time.

It's my belief the triathlete is going to be at least as well prepared than he might have been years prior to being a triathlete on a typical 6 day running schedule. Plus he's more likely to get to the start line without injury.

OK, I'll admit it, i am talking about my approach to chicago! I'll let you know how i get on but at this stage I am anticipating a 10 minute PR and certainly healthier than when i was just a "runner"...

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Your post is riddled with common misconceptions about the transfer between cycling training and run training. Some of the things you referred to are not accurate.

I would like to thank you for your post and for the alternative, albeit incorrect, view that it presents.

you want to do this AFTER you have prepared your body for this kind of pounding-

_________________________________

ABSOLUTELY! Ha, one year our college coach had us do a lot of down hill running in a practice. Half the team was on ice after practice. We told him NEVER to do that again!

I always like doing no more than 40 meters of slightly down hill running.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Now Paulo, I think he does have some things right. In the end, for someone who is not injury prone, a program of ONLY running will be better than a tri-program. The long bike ride is certainly better than nothing, however it pales in comparison to what extra running will do.

Yes, I think a runner can do "fine" off of 4 runs a week. But it's not the best he can do. *I* only ran 3 days a week in preparation for my IM, but mine was a special case. I sucked on the bike and needed to spend every spare minute on it.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

like i said, we'll see how i get on in Chicago.

Since marathon success to me is governed by strength (particularly in the last 10k) and aerobic fitness, explain why there is no crossover benefit from cycling to running?

Next you will be telling slowman there is no crossover benefit to running/viking from swimming?

*I think* doing long runs the day after a long bike has particular benefit to marathon training because running on tired legs builds strength further.

Note: *I think* - I am no coach, I am just mentioning things I have found successful for me and may provoke some training benefit for others.

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

I would like to thank you for your post (I LOVE your posts!), and for its typical trait of pointing out flaws or inaccuracies in other's posts, yet then never offering constructive criticism of them, or actual thoughts of why you disgree, and what you consider to be correct, or would do differently, and why.

Typical ST posting exchange:

Any poster - " I think blah blah blah"

Paulo - "you're wrong"

lather, rinse, repeat ;-)

It is very easy to constantly tell people what they post is incorrect or inaccurate. Anybody can do that. Offering suggestions, corrections, etc is much harder, and of course it also opens you up to possible critique and criticism. Which is why you never (ok, rarely) actually do that.

I do hafta say, I like the "kinder, gentler" Paulo, even if you are still saying the same thing, at least you are saying it in a much more courteous manner.

Carry on.

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float , hammer , and jog

[reply]Next you will be telling slowman there is no crossover benefit to running/viking from swimming?[/reply]


I doubt very much that swimming will make me a better Viking... then again, Bjorn is damn quick in the pool!

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

[reply]

*I think* doing long runs the day after a long bike has particular benefit to marathon training because running on tired legs builds strength further.

[/reply]

I have no evidence to back this up but this statement has never made sense to me. To get the most out of a workout and not injure yourself, your body should be well rested. personally, I would think that running on tired legs would be more detrimental physically than helpful. it would be great for a mental exercise though. Logically speaking, to get the most out of your workout, it makes sense to do it when your body will be able to get the most out of it.
But that is just the way I look at it. Again, no evidence to back me up just my warped sense of thinking. :)

I am guessing somebody didn't see my post under the "Please be more positive on ST" thread where i wrote:

"It's time to start encouraging the posting of new ideas and anecdotes (eg LG rocket) and ignore those that have nothing better to say (by this i don't mean constructive criticism, i mean the 'you are full of shit' type of response without any attempt at a counter argument)."

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=1003082;search_string=search_string;guest=9245906#1003082

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

What is your take on PowerCranks as an effictive supplemental training tool for running? This is not to say one should not abide by increasing mileage first and foremost. This would be in addition to. Perhaps book-ending a run with 20 minute PowerCrank sessions on a trainer. They would be used as a supplement to running. For instance, I come from a swimming background. I am working on the running, but I get these little nagging injuries. Over the winter I would like to average 45-60 miles per week between December and March. I do not intend to do much if any speedwork during this time, as it would be the most run milage I have ever done. In terms of physically adapting to the pounding of running, I don't want to mess with doing more milage than that this winter. However, in terms of what my aerobic system can handle, it will not tax me that much, as running 60 miles at 7-7.5 mph is still less than 10 hours per week. In a previous post in this thread you indicated gains due to cycling don't have much to do with running; do you feel that holds true with PowerCranks?

Dear Murphy,

You are right and I forgot one important rule of Slowtwitch: Only those people that have arguments that are supported by scientific evidence and their own extensive experience have to justify their posts. All the others only need to post what works for them, and those should not be contradicted.

Therefore, I would like to apologize to "t2k" for my post and wish him the best of luck in his upcoming marathon.

Dear Flanagan,

I have no opinion whatsoever on Powercranks. Thank you for your post.

It is well established that there is little training crossover among swimming, biking and running. Specificity rules. Especially in the case of biking to running, else you'd see lots of elite runners doing bike miles. It doesn't happen.

Long bike rides (say, 2 minutes or more) don't build leg strength, and certainly don't work on eccentric contractions that occur in running. These rides may have given him superior aerobic fitness...for biking.

Your belief that cross-training will produce a more prepared runner than a strict diet of running (done correctly to avoid injury) has no basis in fact. I'm glad you couched it with "my belief".

Kind and gentle enough for ya?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Barry, how do you address form between tempo and LSD?

I see too many runners where their form varies depending on the intensity (Long runs have slower cadence and tempo has faster cadence). This is where I believe injuries occur. Folks perform the Long Run paying attention to HR and not to natural form. I try to maintain a fast cadence regardless of HR effort (the stride length just changes when comparing Tempo to Long). My Long Runs are faster than the average runner yet I am fresher and recover faster because I am not pounding the pavement with a slow cadence. With this approach it did take me a while to reach the a longer run distances as I adapted.

-Woody

That reminds me of the looks on peoples faces when they ask me if I'm sore after the Boston marathon and I tell them..."hell yes I'm sore, those downhills are a bitch!" A lot of people--and coaches--underestimate how tough downhill running can be. It might be "free speed", but it hurts afterwoods.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Not specific to this post, but how do you keep from tossing your <insert_last_meal> when you type in this style?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Funny how those who grew up using their lungs 2+ hrs a day as swimmers since age 6 often excel as triathletes later in life despite this lack of crossover benefit?

An aerobic engine is an aerobic engine no matter how it was developed. See Mr Armstrong as evidence...

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

"I think the long bike is key to success in the final 10k of a marathon because it's the safest way you can get your body really accustomed to constant aerobic efforts greater than the duration of the marathon."

The long bike is key to sucess in the bike leg of a triathlon. Nutrition, quality and consitency of your long runs, LT threshold training history, race experience, and shear mental fortitude are the key's to success in the final 10k of a marathon.

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"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

Dear Ken,

If I reply to your OT post, I will be contributing to the cliquey feeling. As I already replied to one post from ironclm today, my daily quota is full.

But I am looking forward to more posts from you on this subject, and if you so wish, you can include the following link in them.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...94&dopt=Citation

Funny, isn't it. I'm willing to bet that, at age 48, I could whip Phelps' or Thorpe's butt on a 40km TT right now, and I've never done 2+ hours in a day as a swimmer. Why do you think that might be?

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"Go yell at an M&M"

i don't know about you but my body can't take running > 20 miles in training nor am i going to get more than 2hrs 45 of an aerobic workout by running along.

I do know that I have run an EVEN (slightly negative 2nd half versus 1st)) split marathon SINCE I became a triathlete and introduced bikes > 4 hours into me schedule. That was because i didn't hit any walls after 20 miles like I used to....

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Thank you for that informative post. By the way, did I say that I lo...<urp>...

Sorry, can't do it.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

slightly ridiculous statement considering neither athlete are even known to own a bike!

I'll leave it to others to comment any further on that as an analogy.... I noticed you didn't take up Bjorn or Lance on your 40k TT smackdown?

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Dear Paulo,

Actually, it would be nice if everybody would justify their posts, but specifically when they are pointing out errors, ommissions, inaccuracies, etc in the posts of others.

Nobody is above scrutiny or reproach. Nobody's word is law. As I said, just saying somebody is wrong (in your opinion, no matter how experienced or considered it may or may not be, and how nicely or not you state it), and then not elaborating on how, why, or what the correct info is, is of very limited utility.

We get it. You are a good coach. You have great experience and have done much research, and have used it in practical application w/ many successful elite athletes. Regardless, I speak for myself (and likely others) when I say that simply pointing out others errors without then offering anything else constructive or corrective isn't of all that much benefit to anybody, except perhaps yourself.

Warmest regards,

-ML

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float , hammer , and jog

I would put forward this revolutionary concept:

Posting anedoctal personal "evidence" is not positive as it may lead others to repeat the same mistakes.