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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Great stuff. I was hoping you or bicyclerollingresistance would start looking at some of these kind of tires. Do you have a 650b wheelset?
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Toggling between Big-S Sequoia and Rodeo Labs Flaanimal.

Build kit on hand
46/30 w/11-40 rear - ultegra long cage with wolfstooth extender
Both good to 50mm clearance
Hy:Rd flat mount brakes (cuz hydro shift levers are $$$$pendy)
Have 700 Grail rims with 38 G-Ones ready to go for multi purpose and 28 Pro-Ones for road fun.
Looking at a Crest 650 for more exclusively dirt options.
Bikepacking, both trail and road, another use for this future rig.

Stolen pics:






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@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Last edited by: MarkyV: Nov 2, 17 12:34
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Slowman wrote:
to you all, 2 things:

1. i have totally dug this thread, and as a number of you know i basically hijacked this thread and just published a front page story featuring a lot of your pics.

2. here are my babies. the litespeed i just put some schwalbe 28mm g-ones on there and it takes them (in 700c) fine, with room to spare, which i'm glad about. (brad devaney: thank you!) the slate has 42mm slicks on there now, and i got some 44mm with a slightly grippier tread (maybe) but i can't get the darned stock panaracers off there. i will eventually, but i haven't gotten them off there yet. i'd like to eventually put a 53mm tire on the slate but i don't know yet if it'll fit (in the back).

the litespeed is more of a road bike. the slate is more of a mountain bike (on the gradient of road to mtb). hence my desired tire choices. anybody have any 411 on the largest tire they've put on their slate, love to hear it.


Those tires look larger than 28mm...I'm thinking that's a typo, right? ;-)

typo. good catch. they're 38s.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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I like that idea.

The decision gap for me on which rig to take (in the future - waffling between two frames right now) is snappiness. Road bikes are fun and snappy and all the gravel/bikepacking rigs i've test driven are just a bit more sluggish (but for good reason). Different days, different feelings about how much zip i want in my handling.

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@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [cobra_kai] [ In reply to ]
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cobra_kai wrote:
Great stuff. I was hoping you or bicyclerollingresistance would start looking at some of these kind of tires. Do you have a 650b wheelset?

Thanks. Not yet. When I got the Fuji, I was hoping I could run my 26" MTB wheels in it with regular MTB tires for more "MTB-like" riding. After all, a 650B rim and a 26" rim only vary by 12mm on the radius...but alas, although the fork is fine for that, unfortunately Fuji didn't quite make the tire clearance "crimp" in the chainstays long enough to allow for that. The widest clearance is lined up more for a 650B wheel and tire.

So, maybe I'll get a 650B wheel for that purpose...dunno. I have a disc PT wheel that's laced into a 26" wheel that I was thinking about possibly swapping a 650B rim onto...then again, I haven't found much need for going that big/gnarly on the rubber yet for the Fuji. In fact, my overall favorite in that list right now is the 36C Challenge Gravel Grinder Pro. It's not super-wide, but it has a decent amount of center tread "file" pattern, with some small side knobs. Rolls nice (significantly better than the more smoother treaded Compass Bon Jon Pass), feels smooth on pavement, and actually corners quite confidently, even when leaned over on pavement. The only "downside" is it's not tubeless capable...but, IME latex tubes get you basically the same off-road performance (in regards to fending off snake-bite flats).



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Holy Cow those G-Ones are absolute dogs. I never would have guessed that.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Oh man, nice Flaanimal. That's a rad bike. I was looking at the Trail donkey pretty closely but couldn't swing the cost. Love their mindset in developing bikes
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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^agreed. the trail donkey is my dream bike right now for sure. here's my rig. custom painted surly straggler. sram rival 1x, cambium saddle, compass 700x38 barlow pass tires, chris king headset.




*well that was a big time fail. can't figure out how to flip this
Last edited by: lilteichmonster: Nov 2, 17 13:22
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Holy Cow those G-Ones are absolute dogs. I never would have guessed that.


Yeah, I was disappointed by that as well...along with the Compass Bon Jon Pass model (which seem to take a bigger hit for size than they should) and the Stielacooms.

Now...to be fair, those values are for how they roll on HARD pavement, and the tires with more pronounced rubber "knobs" take quite a hit (but is no excuse for the Bon Jon). Of course, the casing flex for a given load will be ~the same (with same losses) on soft or hard surfaces, but the "knob flex" losses will most likely be lessened in the dirt. Do the differences close up...or widen...in that case? Dunno...

In other words, it would be nice to know how the tires perform relative to each other on the "intended surface"...and I'm working on that ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Nov 2, 17 13:22
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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This is amazing. We're very interested in more!

I'm also curious about that G One appearing somewhat slow since Schwalbe is typically a fast roller. If the "Big One" was so fast and Schwalbe says the G One is the same thing...hmm.

Those seem like really high pressures too. I'm absolutely familiar with the 15% thing, but nobody is running those pressures in the real world. I remember you mentioning actual operating pressures a bit lower too. After hundreds of gravel miles, I settled on 27-28 front and 30-31 psi rear for my Schwalbe G Ones that measure about 41mm. I'm sure you'll discuss it further when the rest of the info is ready for consumption. Thanks again for doing this.
Last edited by: dangle: Nov 2, 17 13:27
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom,

Great data, this starts to shed some light on what has been a murky but very important subject. Of the tires you tested my experience is limited to the GP4000S and the G-One 40's (close enough) and my perception of the extra load on the G-Ones seems to jive with what you measured.

I'm not sure I concur with the G-Ones being 'dogs' - they aren't a road tire after all. There is a price to pay for versatility in these tires and I think the G-One balances that better than other tires I've tried (Clement MSO, Kenda Happy Medium). I haven't done any offroad riding from the 'big smooth tire' approach so I can't vouch for how much knobbed traction matters, if at all (probably very surface dependent?).

One other interesting question would be the RR vs. pressure relationship for some of these tires. I know it's been well established in the smaller sizes for lower RR with lower pressure. FWIW I would never take my G-One 40's above 40 psi even on tarmac (lower offroad). I would presume that relationship holds here as well.
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Holy Cow those G-Ones are absolute dogs. I never would have guessed that.


Yeah, I was disappointed by that as well...along with the Compass Bon Jon Pass model (which seem to take a bigger hit for size than they should) and the Stielacooms.

Now...to be fair, those values are for how they roll on HARD pavement, and the tires with more pronounced rubber "knobs" take quite a hit (but is no excuse for the Bon Jon). Of course, the casing flex for a given load will be ~the same (with same losses) on soft or hard surfaces, but the "knob flex" losses will most likely be lessened in the dirt. Do the differences close up...or widen...in that case? Dunno...

In other words, it would be nice to know how the tires perform relative to each other on the "intended surface"...and I'm working on that ;-)

I'm look forward to seeing how you go about this. In my brief foray thus far off road, I've learned that unusual surfaces add a bunch of additional variables to the tire selection calculus.

WTB: TriRig Omega SV (not x). PM me if you have one :)
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I’m really surprised how poor the Bon Jons tested. Was it the EL version? I’d think they would test very close to Compass’ 44mm tire - is the difference because the 44 is the EL and the Bon Jon is the standard casing?

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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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Since getting my gravel bike I have ridden it for most of my miles. A good amount of my riding is mixed terrain, so it's a good fit. Also, I enjoy seeing just how big a tire and low pressure I can run while being able to stay with the group ride. This makes a group ride a pretty solid sweet spot effort. I only ride my road bike for races and fast group rides where I want to contest sprints.
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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I have a 3T Exploro, but am picking up my Rodeo Flaanimal frame tomorrow. Local company with great customer service and a unique brand. I would say go for it! Their 4.0 version is coming out soon. I will post the build here when I am done. Using it more as a disc brake endurance road bike than gravel, but it will fit my 650b wheels with WTB horizon tires.
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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Pic is from google off of rollins pass.

I ski off the east side of the pass in the spring, i can't fathom riding a bike up it! I wonder if the approach from winter park is smoother?

I want my gravel bike to have a bit of a working class feel to it. Carbon doesn't give me that so no TD for me.

_______________________________________________________
@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for starting this. It's a sweet ass thread!

Getting by with my 2001 LeMond Poprad for now.

Formerly DrD
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Orbilius] [ In reply to ]
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Nice! I take it that you are getting a 3.0?

I met up with Steve a few weeks ago and took his personal 3.0 out for a spin. 4.0 ETA still a little TBD from our chat but Dec-Jan is likely.

I've been playing around in the foothills above boulder on my S1 with 25s. Bout time I got a rig more suited for the terrain!

Please post when you've got it up and running!

_______________________________________________________
@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Yea - getting a 3.0. building it up with 46x10/42 on both 700c and 650b wheels.


Are you in the Denver area? If so, and if a 56cm fits you you are welcome to come out with me and swap between the Flaanimal and 3T to get a feel for them.

You are a brave man riding those roads on 25s! Are you riding the Gold Hill/Lickskillet stuff?
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Orbilius] [ In reply to ]
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Cool seeing so many people into the Flaanimal. I've got my 3.0 frame that I'm slowly building up, those discounted frames were too tempting for me to pass up! I should hopefully have mine fully built by the end of the year.
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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This makes me so sad about my Bon Jon Pass tires. I guess I see some Challenge tires in my future!

/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [kjmcawesome] [ In reply to ]
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kjmcawesome wrote:
This makes me so sad about my Bon Jon Pass tires. I guess I see some Challenge tires in my future!

I'm kind of sad too - I'd like to know if Tom tested the EL or standard casing. I just can't understand how they can be so much slower compared to Compass' 700x44s (which are EL)

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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [dangle] [ In reply to ]
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dangle wrote:
Those seem like really high pressures too. I'm absolutely familiar with the 15% thing, but nobody is running those pressures in the real world. I remember you mentioning actual operating pressures a bit lower too. After hundreds of gravel miles, I settled on 27-28 front and 30-31 psi rear for my Schwalbe G Ones that measure about 41mm. I'm sure you'll discuss it further when the rest of the info is ready for consumption. Thanks again for doing this.

On the pressures, here's a couple of comments:

- Although the pressures may appear "high" for mixed surface applications, they aren't much different from what I would select if I knew I was going to be riding on pavement only. It's also important to not fixate on the absolute differences shown there, but more on the % differences. Even at lower pressures, I'd expect the percent differences to be similar.

- The idea of using the "Berto 15% drop" pressure was to use a test pressure that varies with the mounted tire width...much as how the tires are used in actual use. I don't have the time, nor inclination, to test each tire at various pressures, so using the "15% drop" pressure is as good of a compromise as any to reflect that variation. The main idea is to not give larger tires an "unfair advantage" due to using a fixed pressure.

- It's important to remember that the smooth rollers are of relatively small diameter, which results in a more "curved" contact patch deflection than for the same wheel load on flat ground. Erring towards the side of higher pressures in the testing will help prevent undue influence of "side knobs" coming into play in the drag measurements. In other words, I don't want side knobs affecting things when they may not be getting deflected out on the road.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [JesseN] [ In reply to ]
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JesseN wrote:
Tom,

Great data, this starts to shed some light on what has been a murky but very important subject. Of the tires you tested my experience is limited to the GP4000S and the G-One 40's (close enough) and my perception of the extra load on the G-Ones seems to jive with what you measured.

I'm not sure I concur with the G-Ones being 'dogs' - they aren't a road tire after all. There is a price to pay for versatility in these tires and I think the G-One balances that better than other tires I've tried (Clement MSO, Kenda Happy Medium). I haven't done any offroad riding from the 'big smooth tire' approach so I can't vouch for how much knobbed traction matters, if at all (probably very surface dependent?).

One other interesting question would be the RR vs. pressure relationship for some of these tires. I know it's been well established in the smaller sizes for lower RR with lower pressure. FWIW I would never take my G-One 40's above 40 psi even on tarmac (lower offroad). I would presume that relationship holds here as well.


Coming from a long-time MTB background (bought my first MTB in 1986) I was quite skeptical of how well a "smooth" tire would perform off-road. But then experiences such as originally participating in the BWR on smooth, narrow road tires and then riding an Exploro 2 years ago using the WTB smooth tires on the Dirt Demo single-track trails demonstrated to me that they actually do quite well!

Those experiences had me setting up my original "Frankenbike" all-road rig with 50+mm wide Compass Rat Trap Pass tires.

The key seems to be using a flexible enough tire at a low enough pressure to allow the casing to conform over most off-road obstacles. About the only places I've found them to "fall down", is on relatively steep bumps that have loose gravel on them and in mud. Everywhere else, they do surprisingly well.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Nov 3, 17 16:59
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Bonesbrigade wrote:
I’m really surprised how poor the Bon Jons tested. Was it the EL version? I’d think they would test very close to Compass’ 44mm tire - is the difference because the 44 is the EL and the Bon Jon is the standard casing?

It might not be clear, but I tested BOTH the regular and EL versions of the Snoqualmie Pass tire. They "bracket" the Strada Bianca Pro in the list. It appears that for that model, the EL version is worth only ~1-1.5W per tire between 20-30 kph. That has me thinking the regular version might be the better call. Early on in running the EL versions I suffered a sidewall cut that probably would've been fended off by the regular model since there's more rubber in the sidewall. The EL seems to have a really light rubber content in the casing...such that when run tubeless there can be quite a bit of "bleed-through" of the sealant.

The Bon Jon was standard casing, and I would expect the difference for the EL version to match the Snoqualmie Pass.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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