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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Bonesbrigade wrote:
I’m really surprised how poor the Bon Jons tested. Was it the EL version? I’d think they would test very close to Compass’ 44mm tire - is the difference because the 44 is the EL and the Bon Jon is the standard casing?


It might not be clear, but I tested BOTH the regular and EL versions of the Snoqualmie Pass tire. They "bracket" the Strada Bianca Pro in the list. It appears that for that model, the EL version is worth only ~1-1.5W per tire between 20-30 kph. That has me thinking the regular version might be the better call. Early on in running the EL versions I suffered a sidewall cut that probably would've been fended off by the regular model since there's more rubber in the sidewall. The EL seems to have a really light rubber content in the casing...such that when run tubeless there can be quite a bit of "bleed-through" of the sealant.

The Bon Jon was standard casing, and I would expect the difference for the EL version to match the Snoqualmie Pass.

Thanks Tom. I’ve had the same experience with the Compass tires in terms of sidewall weeping in the EL version when setup tubeless. In fact I’ve given up completely using any of their tire tubeless (I have a lot!). I now use latex tubes on all of them - even the 650b 48s (26 inch Michelin mtn ones).

More questions: were you testing the Bon Jons and Snoqualmie tubeless?
Any idea why the Bon Jons are so much slower compared the same casing for the Snoqualmie? There isn’t much rubber on those the Bon Jons and they *feel* supple. Seems strange they would be slower.

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Last edited by: Bonesbrigade: Nov 3, 17 15:58
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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How are any of these tests considering suspension related energy/power losses. Rolling resistance really only a part of the system and frankly an order of magnitude less significant than energy lost through getting rattled around - hence the need for supple tires run at the lowest possible pressures.
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Where do you get latex tubes that fit mountain-sized tires? i'd like something that will work for Schwalbe Big One 29er...
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Crash Dog] [ In reply to ]
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Crash Dog wrote:
Where do you get latex tubes that fit mountain-sized tires? i'd like something that will work for Schwalbe Big One 29er...

They sell them on the UK sites like chainreaction/wiggle. I’ve only ever seen them in the 26 inch size and it wouldn’t be a good idea to stretch them into a 29er.

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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Moots Baxter. Currently running 29" 2.25 tires front and rear. Could always go smaller, but this is a comfortable setup for the rocky jeep roads and trails in the Front Range foothills. Went with a 10spd triple setup to get the gearing range I wanted for the steeps...XT drivetrain with 42-32-22 up front, 11-32 out back mated with Ultegra shifters. No regrets. Possibly my favorite bike of all time.


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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [ironacct] [ In reply to ]
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ironacct wrote:
Moots Baxter. Currently running 29" 2.25 tires front and rear. Could always go smaller, but this is a comfortable setup for the rocky jeep roads and trails in the Front Range foothills. Went with a 10spd triple setup to get the gearing range I wanted for the steeps...XT drivetrain with 42-32-22 up front, 11-32 out back mated with Ultegra shifters. No regrets. Possibly my favorite bike of all time.

And there it is. These bikes are not the lightest, stiffest, fastest, or most aero in the stable but they are the most fun. And that is what it's all about :-)
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [ironacct] [ In reply to ]
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What bars are those?
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [zeusrun] [ In reply to ]
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Salsa Cowbell
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Bonesbrigade wrote:
More questions: were you testing the Bon Jons and Snoqualmie tubeless?

Latex tubes, unless noted as a butyl...which brings up a good point: I found that the Challenge tires are a real PITA to set up with a latex tube fresh out of the box. It works much better to set the tire up with a butyl tube first, and then after a day or 2, swapping in the latex. The tires apparently need to get some "shape" stretched into them to make it easier for the latex install.

Setting tires up tubeless for this testing would also be a PITA (and wasteful of sealant). Early on in trying the new protocol, I compared a Snoqalmie Pass set up tubeless on a Zipp Course 30 rim to one with latex on the AC101 wheel I've used for testing. The raw results were within a few watts, so basically no difference. I didn't include that result because I was still working through getting a good rear wheel load reading and so the test pressure wasn't correct for the actual load...in other words it wasn't "apples to apples" for the rest of the testing. However, it put my mind to ease about just testing with latex.

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Any idea why the Bon Jons are so much slower compared the same casing for the Snoqualmie? There isn’t much rubber on those the Bon Jons and they *feel* supple. Seems strange they would be slower.

No idea. I was surprised as well. I wonder if it may be some process variations, or possibly batch by batch changes they've made in the tires? IIRC, they've made "unannounced" changes before (beads?) on some of the tires in the past...



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Testament TN] [ In reply to ]
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Testament TN wrote:
How are any of these tests considering suspension related energy/power losses. Rolling resistance really only a part of the system and frankly an order of magnitude less significant than energy lost through getting rattled around - hence the need for supple tires run at the lowest possible pressures.


Are you referring to "suspension losses" in the sense that Jan Heine has co-opted the term? That is, talking about losses from energy that gets THROUGH the tires (usually due to running too high of pressure for the conditions) and is dissipated in the rider? I find that terming it that way can be confusing since on a rigid bicycle, the tire IS (or should be) the suspension.

Think of it this way, in order to prevent those losses, it's incumbent on the rider to choose the correct pressure in order to avoid the "breakpoint" pressure (where resistance to forward motion dramatically increases - because the tires are no longer acting effectively as suspension)...and if they can't lower the pressure enough without bottoming, then they should choose a larger tire. All of that has little to do with the inherent losses in the casings of the tires themselves.

However, if the pressures AND tire sizes ARE selected adequately, then the tire is doing its job as suspension, and the REAL suspension losses are from the additional dynamic casing flexion on top of the fixed amplitude deflection caused by the wheel loading....and the losses from both types of flexing are driven by the internal hysteretic losses of the tire/tube construction...of which, a smooth roller test is a great method of determining. This also explains why adding "texture" to a roller isn't necessary. So, if you aren't over-inflating your tires and/or using too small of tires for the conditions, then the rolling resistance contribution of the tire is absolutely driven by how "lossy" the tire construction is.

So, that's a long answer to your question...so in short, the roller testing captures the real suspension losses of the tires by measuring the tire hysteresis losses. It does not capture any additional losses in the system caused by running pressures above the breakpoint pressure of the system (what Jan confusingly calls "suspension losses")...but you shouldn't be doing that anyway.

I know Jan has a bit of a "blind spot" on this, and can't quite wrap his head around the utility of roller testing...which is why I thought it would be good to more thoroughly explain.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Nov 5, 17 15:13
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Ok. I assumed you were using latex unless otherwise noted - just thought I’d double check though.

I’m still curious about the Bon Jons. It could be a batch issue. I seem to recall you testing some conti tires that were unexpectedly poor performing and you later found out conti had changed their compound.

I have one set of wheels setup with g-ones tubeless and another setup with Bon Jons with latex tubes. I was surprised to see your results having them essentially tied. The Bon Jons feel much faster, but who knows! We know how poor our feelings are.

Regardless, thanks for the data. I certainly don’t expect you to get to the bottom of this - I’m interested because I use a lot of compass tires and considered these to be my “A” tires for low rolling on pavement and gravel.

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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [jmh] [ In reply to ]
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jmh wrote:
Dude, come on. You ride (or at least ridden) with Gravel Cyclist of gravelcyclist.com, he's got this gravel bike thing figured out better than 99% of the folks riding gravel and several porn worthy rides.

Open is super nice... I like double chain rings though so I would not consider the 3T, you might. But there is something to be said for Ti for this kind of bike. Why Cycle R+ would be on my short list.

You can run a front derailleur on the 3T EXPLORO, we have several assembled with Ultegra Di2 and even a Rotor equipped model.

-SD

Dave Koesel � General Manager 3T US
dave.koesel A 3Tcycling.com
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [cobra_kai] [ In reply to ]
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I wish I'd discovered them sooner. I would have been all over that discount sell off like butter on toast.

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@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Orbilius] [ In reply to ]
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I still can't bring myself to go 1x. There's the backpacking use I hope to get out of it but I've also got this obsession with riding up lickskillet in my 32/40 and not letting the HR get over 120 bpm's :)

I'm in South Boulder. I'm normally a 58 and the 58 3.0 that I test drove seemed to be spot on for what I'm looking for. Really appreciate the generous offer tho! Thank you.

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You are a brave man riding those roads on 25s! Are you riding the Gold Hill/Lickskillet stuff?
Ha! Thanks. My personal fav is a slow cruise up 4 mile canyon all the way to sunset and then heading north to gold hill or south to sugar loaf. Depends on the time of year. Sunset to gold hill is often too sandy by May (spring snow/moisture dependent) and Sunset to Sugarloaf often too snowy late April, but largely perfect May to November. I've got a map from the forest service office that is fun to plot ideas out on.

If you ever want to go for a spin up this way give me a buzz, i do ride pretty slow tho :)

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@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [ironacct] [ In reply to ]
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that looks like LOADS of fun

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@MarkyV - 31 kona qualifiers 2006-'14
"If you cannot devote the time required to fully maximise your genetic potential, then don't make believe your own science and re-write decades of history of coaching wisdom, and pretend that you can do some magical training program on 8hrs /wk instead of 12-20 and get to the same level in [any endurance sport]. Accept the reality which is that you just have to settle for a performance level which isn't the absolute peak that your body is capable of." - Nathan Townsend
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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It's a hoot. The fatter tires smooth out the rough stuff and keep the pucker factor lower when shooting down steep stuff.
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Brand new Litespeed Gravel bike with Sram eTap and 1X out of
Bicycle Sport in Vero Beach, Florida. Sweet bike.
Last edited by: BIKEMIKE1: Nov 6, 17 15:37
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [ironacct] [ In reply to ]
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ironacct wrote:
Moots Baxter. Currently running 29" 2.25 tires front and rear. Could always go smaller, but this is a comfortable setup for the rocky jeep roads and trails in the Front Range foothills. Went with a 10spd triple setup to get the gearing range I wanted for the steeps...XT drivetrain with 42-32-22 up front, 11-32 out back mated with Ultegra shifters. No regrets. Possibly my favorite bike of all time.


I took a tour of the Moots factory last fall on a trip to Steamboat Springs. Been lusting them ever since! Absolutely awesome bike!

Formerly DrD
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Broken Leg Guy] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks, mate!
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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My Litespeed T5 Gravel in a painted version.
The tire clearance is good for tires up to 700c x 45 mm. I installed a MAXXIS Rambler 40 mm and there is plenty space for more.


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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
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Just finished my Rodeo Labs Flaanimal. Using it for endurance road training, pulling a double wehoo, and light gravel duty.

46t x 10/42 gearing (rival, Force and Apex) on Zipp 30 Course wheels with 28mm Conti GP 4k tires (30.5mm). Stages PM, Zipp seatpost and stem. 3T bar. Dash saddle.








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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [Orbilius] [ In reply to ]
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That's really nice looking!

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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [highendcycling] [ In reply to ]
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Love that Lightspeed. Did they paint it?

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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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No, it wasn´t Litespeed- It was a painter in our area, who brought the color on the frame-fork-stem-set.
Last edited by: highendcycling: Nov 9, 17 23:19
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Re: Gravel Bike Porn [highendcycling] [ In reply to ]
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Cool. I really dig that color. And the paint/bare Ti scheme is just about how I envisioned my own design, although I was thinking root beer brown with some cream accents.

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