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does it get better than this position?
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Hope I get Dan some hits, but its not ST approved. You don't get to see the bike. Left leg is peak height. Some loss in power not much (8%-10 over road bike). I am 6 1 and 145 with a 29" inseam. long flexible back short legs. Thoughts??? Yes I can ride it well for an hour and run
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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What do you mean by "better?"
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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test it and you'll know for sure.

Superman can definitely be fast. (You might be too low in the front for it to be optimal though.)

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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I suppose what I'm asking is under usat rules is there anything you would critique as far as eyeball aero goes? Ive made a longer lower bike than has been offered to accommodate this position. I was just looking for thoughts or critique
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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I agree. higher longer arms would be even better aero wise (i would think), but practical compromises had to be made as far as handling and safety (moving lots of weight forward).
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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This is a great place to start emulating. Seth had it pretty nailed.

Last time I played around when I bought my old Serotta fit bike


My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
Last edited by: Morelock: Sep 12, 17 7:08
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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I expected something else when I saw this thread ...

Started triathlons to get girls, and continued to be better than people.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, what would you think about me ordering a set of aero bar stack spacers and getting a very long bolt or other way to stack them? i get nervous making a tower under my arms
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
Ok, what would you think about me ordering a set of aero bar stack spacers and getting a very long bolt or other way to stack them? i get nervous making a tower under my arms

I don't see much problem adding *some* spacers (I don't know if I'd go wild) but maybe the easiest (and cheapest) place to start is build up some thick pads out of layers of hobby foam. (maybe also rotate the bars up slightly) Hard to tell from the pic, but you don't need tons more stack, but you're reaching the point where you're past flat and starting to round. That might be fine (from an aero standpoint) but in general I think flatter is the sweet spot (with superman at least)

It's also possible you can back off and go with the "diver" position, which is often right up there and less extreme. But again, all that is testing specific, no guarantees.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know that higher would be faster. You have pretty much minimized frontal the way you are. The high position basically leaves your crotch and thighs completely exposed and those are some of your worst aero bits.

My guess is most people's power output drops like a stone in a low Superman. Your fastest position may be higher if that power drop-off can be reduced.
Last edited by: grumpier.mike: Sep 12, 17 8:23
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Re: does it get better than this position? [grumpier.mike] [ In reply to ]
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grumpier.mike wrote:
I don't know that higher would be faster.

This

but apply it to everything.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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then yes:

i don't think this type of position is an ''optimal'' triathlon position.

1) you haven't tested it to see if it's actually faster
2) you suffer power output lossage
3) you likely experience deteriorated run form as a result of this position
4) it looks silly
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
4) it looks silly

As if grown men running around in lycra don't look silly... [/pink]
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Hows it handle??
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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1) No testing as far as aero goes. I need to. Eyeball aero is pretty voodoo.

2) I think 10% loss for a very aggressive position is worth it (some record setters thought so). I cant support this though for myself

3) my run legs are fine. It does strain my lower back some on the run even to the point where its as uncomfortable as the run effort. No run performance change and i think with more work in the position my back will adapt more.

4) I dont care what it looks like. No thats a lie, I think it looks pretty sleek. Im sure you would think the bike looks even sillier
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Re: does it get better than this position? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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Its hard for me to say, Im not a particularly aggressive rider. nothing technical here in the high plains of west texas. Feels perfectly normal as far as I know, But certainly in a technical situation it will be less ideal.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [philg] [ In reply to ]
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everyone has to make their own choice about it for themselves of course, but for the most part if you can ride a bike in aero, you can ride a bike in stretched out aero (if you set it up right and all those caveats) without much issue. You could make an argument that in "sudden" dangerous situations you're probably going to be less reactive than in a "normal" position, but how much, as always, is difficult to speculate.

The ideal solution (in my mind at least) is something slightly more elegant than the Felt above, where the basebar is still in a traditional position. Need some custom work done to make it work though.

I played with this (and the egg) a few years ago with some hackjob solutions, but priorities changed and I turned my attention to "legal" setups. Always fun to see somebody working on it though, however in general I think the Superman position isn't quite as slippery as most people assume it is.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
Last edited by: Morelock: Sep 12, 17 9:37
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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56.4 vs 49.5 kph. I dont know if outputs were similar and he is on road bars in the 2nd pic but with a very good body position. On a velo anyway this seems to be a very significant advantage.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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this is the "better" comparison (riding an hour in drops presents it's own unique challenges) 52.27km

You could argue that a few years to train, experience doing an hour, along with much better equipment and possibly much better conditions (never seen the data on the days... or if anyone recorded those things back then) made up a lot of that difference.

I'm not saying that the superman position isn't or can't be one of the fastest setups... I'm just saying it's often overestimated. Boardman probably wasn't much lower than the good time trialists now. Most estimates put him at low .2xx to high .19x which a couple of people on here are lower than in "normal" positions.

Again, all very subjective and requires personal testing to know for sure.


*ah found it, this was a good thread

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Podium Sports Racing - http://www.podiumsportsmed.com/team/
Last edited by: Morelock: Sep 12, 17 11:22
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Our buddy Grill has the best eyeball position I know of. He won't say much about his CdA other than probably sub 0.18.
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=97788&start=495

His position is similar but not as stretched and he has done a 12 hour TT (those brits are nuts).
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Superman and diver positions may work well on a track or at 32mph. But in yaw conditions that you are likely to experience in a triathlon, they can be pretty slow.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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why is this? what evidence do you have of this? honestly curious
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Re: does it get better than this position? [jens] [ In reply to ]
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jens wrote:

Superman and diver positions may work well on a track or at 32mph. But in yaw conditions that you are likely to experience in a triathlon, they can be pretty slow.

I really don't care about CDA with these positions on the open road....I'd care about safety.

And there they fare pretty shitty..... can't see, can't react fast. Shitty.
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Re: does it get better than this position? [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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not my fault. whatever the rules are people do what they can inside of them. change the rules
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Re: does it get better than this position? [Rider17] [ In reply to ]
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Rider17 wrote:
why is this? what evidence do you have of this? honestly curious


I have this from my old field testing. But if you don't want to take the word of an expert in Medeival Arabic Poetry (me), I can refer you to an actual scientist, Andy Coggan (from a very old post):



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