Two detonations reported in different exit tunnels

Too early to start assuming the cause?

Methodists

Yeah, doesn't sound good. Hard to imagine natural causes for two separate explosions.

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Taco cat spelled backwards is....taco cat.

An echo

Britain is on its second-highest alert level of "severe" meaning an attack by militants is considered highly likely.

http://www.reuters.com/...hester-idUSKBN18I2OP

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Diversity is Strength!

19 dead

Now over 20. Nail bomb.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/...rande-gig-19-deaths/

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

wouldnt rule that bunch out!

It was an Ariana grande concert. Maybe the bombers just don't like bad music.

Now over 20. Nail bomb.


That may narrow the potential suspects...

Suspected suicide bomber. Two more devices found and destroyed with controlled detonations.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/...-gunshots-explosion/

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Prayers to our British brothers and sisters and may the terrorists die a horrible death.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Nail bomb. So what is the solution?

/pink

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Only carpenters need nails. Only plumbers need pipe. Only building demo specialists need explosives. Clearly, we need to ban trades people.

Doesn't look like that'll be the case since this appears to have been a suicide bombing by early reports. Painless death.

But maybe there are living conspirators.

Thanks for the correction, as usual.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Oh the irony. These fools seek death and torture.

Here is what they should be given instead:
1) A night of heavy drinking- where they consume a huge volume of Walmart brand beer, dollar store wine coolers, Monster energy drinks and Robitussin DM.
2) Forced karaoke- where they have to recite the lyrics to every Ariana Grande and Britney spears song while dressed IN COSTUME
3) A one night stand with Roseanne Barr AND Tom Arnold- captured forever on video, and widely distributed on the internet
4) Morning service at a southern Baptist church- on the day that they let the kid with Downs Syndrome practice his preaching skills.
5) Lunch at the Golden Corral where they are forced to eat one serving of everything.
6) Lastly, they should be force to watch a movie where the prophet Muhammad is depicted as a lovable, but slutty kitten,-that can never quite remember her lines and his constantly goofy up.

Well said

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Strategically it makes little sense. The purpose of terrorism is to demoralize your enemy and make them and their supporters give up. These attaches just serve to harden our resolve. These people are truly crazy. And evil

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Isn't one major aspect of terrorism the terror? People afraid to go to concerts, to fly, to live their normal lives. I agree that the aim should be--in theory--to demoralize your enemy, but they're not fighting a war of ideology that they want to win, they're fighting a war of hate. They hate Western culture, they hate Westerners, anything that causes pain and fear is a plus to them.

At least that's my take.

How so?

Seems like that the only way it's going to be over (relatively speaking) is for religion to become as unimportant to them as it has come to be to Christians.

Well, Trump did speak out against Islamic terrorism so The Resistance will do the opposite.

Nevermind, I thought you were being serious.

Updated to 22 dead and a video claiming responsibility.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/...-sick-video-10480115

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That gives them reason to recruit and convert more.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

[quote Duffy
If a group of guys has been going around my neighborhood house to house, murdering my neighbors, bragging about it on social media and promising to kill everyone on the block, when they knock on my door I'm going to do my best to kill every mother fucking last one of them.[/quote]
Why aren't you out there killing Muslims - or are you waiting for them to come to you?

Killing terrorists doesn't seem to have done all that much to dissuade them.

Not to mention I don't think lefties are inhibiting it. So I'm not sure how if they got on board things would drastically change.

If you want the terrorists dead, then you'll have to kill a lot of innocent bystanders... but I'm sure that will have no further impact on future terrorism. Kill away!

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"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell

Post a UK flag tinted filter to your Facebook avatar and then bring in more refugees.

Not in this day and age. When was the last terror attack that wasn't motivated by Islam?

So powerful.

There is a great deal of confusion about the liberal position with respect to Islam and religion in general. Liberals hold two views that seem contradictory to many conservatives. The first being that people are free to believe anything. The second is that people should not be able to force their views on other people. We feel that everyone should be free to follow their conscience so long as doing so they don't prevent other people from following theirs. Many of the same Christians who are scared of Sharia law coming to the US see no problem with ten commandment monuments at courthouses, thinly veiled religion taught as "creationism" in biology classes, and religious sexual values taught as "abstinence only" sex education. They want the "religious freedom" to force their views on everyone else but want to deny the freedom to work, live and worship freely to people of other faiths.

You find putting the 10 commandments on a wall and blowing up kids at a concert to be about equal?

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Trumps biggest ally right now is ISIS. What a world.

Of course you are going to find some hypocrisy and inconsistency in any group. Conservatives like to point out some fringe views and paint all liberals with a broad brush. I too am against religion in general (there are a few I respect even though I don't believe they are literally true). I think the world would be a better place if all religions were relegated to the dustbin of history.

I've never made excuses for Muslims killing anyone. I don't think the witch hunts, inquisitions, crusades or manifest destiny from centuries ago in any way rationalize violence today. There is a historical context though. Christianity has a bloody past. Christianity didn't abandon its violent ways after careful reflection on the teachings of Jesus. Christiandom quit killing and torturing "heretics" after the Renaissance when the church lost most of its political power. There are still Christians that believe that gays and adulterers should be stoned to death but secular government makes these actions illegal. A similar thing needs to happen in the Muslim world for their faith to leave the dark ages and join the civilized world.

The Muslims that taught me, were students or employees of mine, or that I work with now don't want to live in the dark ages. They have embraced secular government and like most Christians consider one's faith to be a private rather than government manner. Muslims like this may still be a minority in Islam but the seed is planted. We just need to corrupt the rest of them.

The vast majority of people in the world (84% according to PEW) believe in some form of religion and the core of most religions involves proper behavior on earth to achieve rewards in the afterlife. Those who display intolerance and violence represent a sliver of a fraction of that population. So, you believe removal of a belief system that teaches people to live good lives on earth would make the world a better place? Really?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I guess that explains why atheism correlates so strongly with violence.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

He equates the posting of the Ten Commandments to be in line with putting together a nail bomb and setting it off and he seems to be under the impression that liberals are open minded, wanting everyone around them to simply live as they want and believe what they want.

In other words, it is impossible to take him seriously.

I went to uni in manchester. Was there when the IRA set off the largest bomb ever on the UK mainland. 3300lb - no deaths.

I've friends there. Its a shit day.

Obviously shit for the families, the city, its inhabitants and i feel for ariane grande

No one walks away from this unaffected. My mates colleagues kids were there last night and are all ok, but it will stay with them

The city will come back. It did last time. London did after 7/7

I really suspect grande is devastated - what a shit thing for a 22 year old to deal with. 22 killed at where she makes her living.

Certainly not the same as losing a family member but i feel for everyone that was there.

I heard really positive things about the response from emergency services, to attendees, to members of the public and businesses.

Shit day............

You best be eating chia seeds. Bitch.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yeah once we get rid of all religion it will be great. On the other hand Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Paul Pot. Not religious guys.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I believe that the ultimate source of morality is enlightened self interest and empathy. We understand that if we live in a fairer and kinder society that we benefit in the long run. Emotionally well adjusted individuals do not like to hurt other people because they vicariously feel some of the pain. Religion at its best simply codifies this natural morality. My daughter attended a very interesting school that had no punishments. Consequences for actions were acceptable but they had to be consequences that naturally followed instead of being artificially created. Whenever there was a problem students were challenged to reason it out. Oddly enough this worked amazingly well. Using their sense of fair play and empathy they found their own solutions. In the Judeo-Christian-Islam view mankind is inherently evil and can only be righteous through God. This counterproductive because believers view anyone with a different faith as evil.

While I disagree with religion I also defend anyone's right to believe and worship as they please. I think that mankind is inherently religious. Even if I got my wish and all current religions were relegated to the dustbin of history people would probably just think up new ones. Hopefully better ones than the last batch since we know a lot more about the universe and human nature now. Religion does fill various psychological needs. I think that people like myself, and apparently Duffy, that don't believe in any religion have a type of social dysfunction. We value truth above fitting into their society's orthodoxy. Most people are socialized and indoctrinated into their society's predominant religion and worldview.

I do admire certain faiths. I certainly admire the Religious Society of Friends. They were early supporters of women's equality and suffrage, reformers of criminal justice and were active in the underground railroad helping fugitive slaves escape to freedom. I also admire the Baha'i teachings of peace and universal brotherhood. I don't believe that either of these religions are literally true but I am impressed by how they inspire their followers. I think that we can synthesize a worldview that takes the best ideals of various faiths without needing any supernatural element to support it. Take what you can use and leave the rest.

Of course I never said it did. Interesting how you omitted the prior portion wherein I pointed out that 84% of the world's population believes in religion ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'm sure you do, but 84% of the world's population consists of believers in some form of religion, so, they likely do not agree with you. FWIW, I study Buddhism, so I, personally, agree with you. But, the vast majority of the world sees it slightly differently and I do not agree the world would be better if we eliminated the moral compass by which the majority of the world conducts itself.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Hitler claimed to be Christian. In Mein Kampf he stated, "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." NAZI's also used Martin Luther's "The Jews and their Lies" as propaganda. You can certainly question the sincerity of his beliefs. Hitler may have simply used religion in the same manner that politicians today use religion to further their aims. Hitler was often critical of orthodox Christian views preferring a more nationalistic Christianity but he just as often condemned atheism. You can't so easily pawn Hitler off on us.

Who is us? I just said I don't think a world without religion is likely to be a better place. Hitler was about as religious as Donald IMHO.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

As I pointed out, some conservatives do the same thing. If someone doesn't like abortion don't have one but don't try make it impossible for everyone else. If someone thinks the universe is thousands of years old instead of billions that is fine but don't try to to call it science teach this in biology classes. If someone thinks that all sex outside of marriage is wrong than don't have it but don't insist on teaching your religion's taboos to my kids as "abstinance only" sex ed. Don't like gay marriage? Don't marry someone of the same gender but don't try to make it so nobody else can.

Not all conservatives feel as above just as not all liberals follow your stereotype.

My son is trans, I don't care what you think about that. I was pretty skeptical myself until I saw how much happier and less anxious my child is as a boy than he was as a girl. I only care if you violate my son's civil rights. i also couldn't care less what you eat, drink or wear. While there are a lot of things people say that I don't agree with I always held that censorship is more dangerous than the expression of any idea.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/...ester-vigil-13082050

I don't know if this is the solution. If the leftists finally come around to seeing Islamism for what it is, that won't necessarily stop Islamists from being Islamists.

What's so odd about this leftist embrace of Islam is that Islam is so diametrically opposed to most of what they believe in. Most, because their faux multiculturalism, cultural relativism, and identify politics seem to take precedence over anything else they believe.

One problem is that the left seems to draw a line between terrorists (or even to cast a wider net, extremists) and Islamists. The Islamist may not be a budding terrorist, perhaps not even an extremist, but the Islamist is the one who will cheer the terrorist act. And even if they oppose that, they're still the one who thinks it's ok to stone a daughter who converts to Christianity or worse, becomes an atheist. Or who believes in female genital mutilation. Go to predominantly Muslim countries, and those are the prevailing opinions/beliefs. And that's a problem that the left won't admit much less condemn. The left likes to single out terrorists and their direct supporters and claim that they are only a minuscule minority of all Muslims, ignoring the fact that the significant portion, if not a majority of the Muslim world hangs on to these other pernicious beliefs and are perfectly willing to act on them.

When will they proclaim solidarity with Mormonism?

There may be some truth to that. But a significant portion of Mormons already are. Perhaps when Mormons become in the US less equated with the Republican party.

So, you believe removal of a belief system that teaches people to live good lives on earth would make the world a better place? Really?

Not to hijack this thread, nor to support whatever-the-fuck-his-name-is' point on other matters, but doesn't this depend on what the replacement is? That for some reason a religiously based morality (teaches people to good lives) is somehow better than a morality based on fact and reason.

It's kind of trite, but I think Penn Jillette had a point when he said,

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping ram[pages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don’t want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don’t want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?"

We had a discussion like this here in the LR several years ago. A person doesn't have to be religious to act morally. However, most of the proposed alternative moral systems we've had in here fell short on actual logic and reason.

That said, I don't think there's such a thing a humanity without religion. People, by nature, develop ideological frameworks for their lives. And, by nature, people cling together with like-minded adherents to similar ideologies. That might be religion, politics, whatever. We could magically get rid of every current religion, and there would be some new system filling the same functions in short order.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Certainly, I think it does depend on the replacement. My response was simply to contradict what appeared to be a ridiculously over-broad statement.

As to Penn's comment - kinda ridiculous to go right to rape and murder, especially in light of the fact that we still have laws that act as a deterrent along with the fact that most people do not have a propensity to rape or murder.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

At a high level my take on that opinion piece is that the countries with the highest rates of crime and poverty etc are the ones that have the highest rate of religious followers (and vice versa) therefore religion creates violence and misfortune.

Or maybe, just maybe, those people follow religion at a greater rate because of the suffering and a need to pray for help. Perhaps as societies become more affluent people take things for granted and don't feel any great need to pray for help?

In other words, people turn to religion because of the violence and suffering rather than turn violent because of religion. Both are possible, but the former makes much more sense.

I agree to some extent with Penn's point. As I mentioned, it's a bit trite.

But if not rape or murder, do we also exclude other violent crimes or acts? I suspect that most people, absent some justification such a self-defense, don't have that propensity either. (Although I'd be interested in a survey of the religious beliefs of those convicted of beating their wives and kids.)

And how do we factor in those violent acts that are founded on the basis of religious belief, regardless of how the individual is interpreted or misinterpreted that belief?

Putting aside violent acts, what's the religious belief that is more of a moral justification than one based on facts and reason? Do athiests cheat on their taxes more than people who are religious? And for those who don't, what's the basis? Is it their religion or is it something else?

Putting aside religious quirks, such as Mormons not drinking coffee, or Adventists and Jews honoring the Sabbath, I wonder if most people are moral largely independently of their religious beliefs.

I am not sure how you get a morality based on fact and reason. I am sure most atheists believe it is wrong to rape and murder but I can't see how it is based on fact and reason. I'd buy an argument that there is a natural law some things are good and some evil they just are. However I cannot explain that via fact and reason. If I am just a random occurence in a an uncaring universe I don't see how it should really matter that I care about your happiness etc. Society may make a law that I cannot rape or murder and for that reason I may comply but that is just self interest.

.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

I don't think the focus should be on not committing violent acts. What about the simple concept of religious charities? How about the simple concept of loving thy neighbor?

Understand that I am not claiming religion is necessary for goodness, kindness, charity, etc. I am simply protesting the concept that the world would be better without religion.

Many of those who take religion to the point of violence also take orders to kill from their dog. Given that 84% of the planet believes in some form of religion, the extremist are really in the minority. Evil will exist in the presence or absence of religion.

You seem to be focusing on those in the US., but the US only makes up 5% of the world's population.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

There are lots of ways to come up with up one. Some are based on some form of natural law. Some are based on some inherent human nature, based on some evolutionary development. But I don't think either get us there all the way. They can answer the big questions, but as an example, I don't think instincts and traits developed through evolution can solve the question on what to do with human embryos and stem cell research as an example. I tend to thing a better approach is some form of utilitarian consequentialism.

Most of ethics is secular. It doesn't always answer the more difficult questions (stem cell research), but to some extent, the idea is to get there via reason, and as more facts are added to the equation and understood, there's a better likelihood of agreement or consensus.

I don't think the focus should be on not committing violent acts. What about the simple concept of religious charities? How about the simple concept of loving thy neighbor?

Understand that I am not claiming religion is necessary for goodness, kindness, charity, etc. I am simply protesting the concept that the world would be better without religion.

I understand, but I'm not sure that religion is the thing that makes the difference. Take your example of loving one's neighbor. It's a concept that has evolved over time, often depending on the definition of a neighbor. In a nomadic family or clan, neighbor might only be reserved for members of the clan, with outsiders treated skeptically if not harshly. In a large multicultural society, neighbor may have a much more expansive definition.

At core, however, is the instinct or impulse one might have to care for a neighbor, however defined. Where does that come from? I don't think religion provides it. And while I'm not convinced reason does either, at least reason as the ability to extrapolate to other or new situations. Religion might do that too, but religion is also entrenched and much less adaptable. And while I'm open to retrenchment and lack of adaptability as being a good thing, I'm not convinced it is.

the extremist are really in the minority. Evil will exist in the presence or absence of religion.


I'm less and less convinced that extremists are in the minority. Female genital mutilation is a large problem throughout the Muslim world (and not just African countries as Reza Aslam would falsely claim). It's evil, but it's also a belief shared by a large portion of those populations. I think I read not too long ago a poll in Pakistan that showed a significant majority of the population thinking that death was the appropriate punishment for adultery, apostasy, etc.

These extreme beliefs may also have been common in Christianity prior to the enlightenment. Did Christianity change, or was it tempered by reason?

I'm not sure either, but, again, I don't think the bad aspects of religion outweigh the good. In addition, I believe most societal/cultural aspects of treating one another well are born out of religion. And, let's not forget, this nation was founded on religion, premised on freedom.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You're preaching to the choir.

But I don't think liberals "seeing the light" is going to do any more to get rid of terrorism than if the religious in the west suddenly wake up and realize they are just a different side of the same coin is going to get rid of it.

What do you think people have a propensity to do that religion can prevent that say teaching people to simply be ethical couldn't?

Again, I am not saying religion is necessary for one to be ethical or for teaching people to be ethical. What I am saying is that, in general, religion teaches one to be ethical. Therefore, I rebut the blanket assertion the world would be better without religion. But, again, that is not to say religion is necessary to instill ethical behavior.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

The dogs I've had have all been pretty mellow and would never give such an order.

The cat on the other hand ...

Outraged & angry about this cowardly terror attack on a crowd of young people. Sending sympathy & strength to victims & people of Manchester
— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) May 23, 2017


Think Hillary is outraged about turning Libya into a violent shithole and the thousands of Libyans she killed, which motivated the bomber to get a small amount of payback?

Good to see Hillary is outraged and angry. Shows she really cares ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Many of the same Christians who are scared of Sharia law coming to the US see no problem with ten commandment monuments at courthouses, thinly veiled religion taught as "creationism" in biology classes, and religious sexual values taught as "abstinence only" sex education.


The difference of course is that the Muslims are murdering innocent people and targeting concerts because there are children there while Christians put up ten commandment monuments.


That's more than a slight difference.

It's not interesting at all that I left it out. It's simply irrelevant to the question of whether people would "live good lives" without religion. Your statement implies that the absence of religion among that 84% is that their lives, and by extension the lives of others around them, would be worse. As noted after my response, that depends entirely on what would exist absent that framework.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Nope. I did not make that assertion. I challenged the assertion that the absence of religion would make the world better. That is not the same thing.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

At a high level my take on that opinion piece is that the countries with the highest rates of crime and poverty etc are the ones that have the highest rate of religious followers (and vice versa) therefore religion creates violence and misfortune.


I think the stronger correlation is with poverty. The poor tend to be more religious as they need something to have faith in, that things will get better in this life or the next. The poor also have higher rates of crime for obvious reasons. I think it is poverty that creates crime and increases belief in a religion and not religion that creates crime and poverty.

Yeah, all those Mormon suicide bombers are really throwing a wrench in things.


After the reports came out about the bombing I bet that it was either Mormons or Buddhists and lost again. You would think that after 200 consecutive wrong guesses, I would start thinking it might be Muslim...

You read my second paragraph? My first was what I saw as the authors take on things and for which I totally disagree with.

I totally agree with you. People tend to head towards faith in their darkest hours. Not the other way around. That's why I believe the author of that piece has totally missed the mark.

You read my second paragraph?


OK, I went back and read the 2nd paragraph and I agree...:)

I'm curious about the differences between passive religion in the US vs Muslim countries. Here in the US, many (if not the majority) of religious folk don't practice their religion vigorously - in my opinion and personal observation most Catholics fall into this category.

As an example, my wife is Catholic. Why? Because she was born Catholic and grew up attending the Catholic Church. Then again, she's attended Catholic Church maybe a dozen times in the last 20 yrs and is pro-choice, supports gay rights, women's rights, pro birth control, etc, etc. She also reveres the Pope but is hardly a model Catholic. She knows little to nothing about the Bible. As for myself, it's complicated and irrelevant to my curiosity.

Mormons (to me) seem more disciplined as you're in or out, perhaps same with Johova Witness(es). As for the traditional American religions I see very few actually following the religion vigorously.

Seems to me certain Muslim countries operate politically as hard liners. A hard line Islamist is a scary proposition. As Alan Shearer mentioned, just because relatively few carry out acts of terrorism, many breed it. I see it to be analogous to a military where few actually fight on the front lines in actual combat, many more support the effort in some capacity.

What I'm curious about is whether or not true Muslims are required by their religion to kill infidels, but many Muslim countries are basically lazy Muslims like we are lazy (Catholics but insert traditional religion here) so no drive to carry out their religious obligations? If this is true, these Muslims connect to terrorists in the manner as non Muslims. I only care be use it informs my sentiment regarding refugees from hardline Muslim countries joining us in the US on,y because they're fleeing and not because they believe in and love America.

As for morality, I like the concept of Karma. If you've ever visited a country where this belief is widely held, it's a nice enforcer of morality with or without a God involved. As a counterbalance, Scientology is fucking crazy (I'm in SoCal so know some very wealthy people who are Scientologists). Thank God their religion doesn't require slaughtering non believers, these folks could fund an entire military!

I think most of ethics is metaphysical. For instance why care about poor people in africa. What can they do for me? Why care about elephants being shot in Africa. The mastadons and sabre toothed tigers went extinct a long time ago am I any poorer if the elephants disappear? Yet there is a story about some guy in Africa crushed by an elephant and almost everyone is upset. . Poor elephant. I never met the elephant and no one else did here. Why care about climate change? By the time it is important I likely will be dead. My kids might be affected but whatever I do will be but a drop in the bucket. My kids are better off if I make alot of money and pass it on to them so they can move someone where its not an issue. I care about all these things but is has nothing to do with reason.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

That's why I started studying and following Buddhism after being raised a fire and brimstone Catholic. But, Buddhists are not atheists, per se. They simply do not believe God is necessary to achieve enlightenment. Of course, I still believe in God, which, I have been told, is the primary reason I will never achieve enlightenment. That's fine, because my aura will have another opportunity after I am gone. ;-)

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My faith is similar to yours - I actually stepped back from organized religion in college and began to study the Bible as a literary work whilst exploring many religions. I often visited the Buddhists and they made more sense to me than anyone else. Karma influences me daily far more than Christianity, so I understand your response. Also, many, many who profess to the 'religious' are immoral. So, forgiveness as a catch all reset is an odd concept to me. Karma makes more sense.

Muslims and Islamists are an enigma.

Had I not traveled extensively, who knows? That's why my kids have been to many places, such as Thailand, Ecuador, Fiji, Europe, Mexico, etc etc and they're not yet out of high school. They have a more balanced mindset towards religion and religious concepts than I do and I'm old!

Was that sarcasm? No offense, but that sounds pathological to me - the idea that all human relationships and activities are personal transactions and of no value when no direct transaction can take place.

There are modern theories of neuroscience and psychology that propose pretty compelling ideas about how human empathy and altruism have perfectly rational benefits to humanity. You mean not consciously reason about each decision - that doesn't mean there's not a rational basis for them. Just like sexual attraction often isn't something we rationally decide to engage in, yet has a rational basis in the context of human evolution.

yes, I am that guy

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RayGovett
Hughson CA
Be Prepared-- Strike Swiftly -- Who Dares Wins- Without warning-"it will be hard. I can do it"

Well that's just plain harsh

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RayGovett
Hughson CA
Be Prepared-- Strike Swiftly -- Who Dares Wins- Without warning-"it will be hard. I can do it"

There is little passive religion in muslim countries

I lived in one for 7 years until last thursday. Qatar which is more conservative than UAE, Bahrain, Oman but less than kuwait and SA

Whilst some muslims may miss the first call to prayer at 3-4am. Almost none miss the remaining 4 unless their job prevents it e.g. surgeons (cant down tools)

In 7 years i met muslims who were passive / lapsed but i could count them on one hand

The difference between catholicism - as an example (me) - and islam is that whilst my grandmother went to church daily and 500-1000 years ago churchs were the single biggest draw in communities. Now that is not the case. In muslim countries it very much is still the case

There is no passivity in the countries attitude to religion. The families that rule these countries do through both cash and religion, the former keeps everyone on the side of the families, the latter keeps them all toeing the line

I have worked with western and middle eastern muslims.

My western colleagues primarily wanted their kids in an environment where they are less exposed to western cultural influences. The middle eastern ones varied from lebanese and algerians who are liberal to super conservative saudi's

I think you need to recognise that islam in terms of the way both countries and muslims approach their beliefs is pretty much the same way christianity was hundreds of years ago i.e. its all encompassing, its not changed and the fervency of belief is not diminished where as i am not sure that is so much the case with christianity - as an example

I often visited the Buddhists and they made more sense to me than anyone else.


A lot of Western countries teach the Coles notes version of Buddhism and that has a lot of appeal because it's easy, makes people feel good and really doesn't take a lot of work. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to give money or follow rules. The Precepts in Buddhism are really just like the 10 Commandments, something most people follow anyways.


I lived in Thailand for a year and studied Buddhism, when to retreats and spent a lot of time around the people. Once you get past the superficial, it really starts to get complex and hard to understand but most people don't go that far. They like the basics but almost no one I knew in Thailand could explain clearly the Thai Buddhist doctrine.

Most of humanity has a built in moral compass. Religion tries to scare people into sticking to their moral compass.

I don't need the fear of hell to be a good person. Nor do you or any of us.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Western Buddhism also largely ignores the supernatural mumbo jumbo which makes it a lot more appealing to rationalists who want some kind of spiritual practice.

It's good that God created all of us that way.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Praise be to Allah.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

That seems to me to be the critical challenge, call it what you will, but how do you get a significantly greater percentage of Muslims to not take the religion so seriously?

Wouldn't we at a basic level not have a moral compass, more a survival instinct? I'd think the moral compass so to speak is learned from family unit, religion, education, society or laws ?

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"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "

I don't think survival instincts and moral compasses are mutually exclusive.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

We probably have some underlying innate* traits like empathy, cooperativeness, prosociality, etc. that form the basis that an ethics/morality arises out of in a given culture. Obviously what form the latter takes can vary greatly (perhaps one of the more stark examples being female sexuality).

*Which can of course go awry which is how you get sociopaths/psychopaths who lack empathy, etc.

You could argue ultimately that this is a survival "instinct" since humans could not have survived outside of the social unit, our babies are very costly to raise and no mother or probably even nuclear family unit could have done it outside of the social group back for hundreds of thousands if not millions of years when hunter/gathering was the lifestyle.

Not mutually exclusive, but often in conflict. Observe animals in the wild and that becomes clear.

I believe humans are born with the capacity to determine right and wrong, but those concepts must be taught and are not inherently ingrained in our hard wiring. Being born without the propensity to rape and kill does not mean one is born with a moral compass. The fact that we do not naturally want to rape and kill does not mean we are born with the knowledge it is "wrong."

Observe a young child in a grocery cart reaching out at the checkout lane and taking a piece of candy without paying. It happens all the time. The desire to take something we want is hard-wired into our system. We have to be taught that this conduct is "wrong" and that we cannot simply take whatever we want.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Ok, so the compass needs to be calibrated shall we say...

Religion can do that, but it doesn't need to. If we want to have a society that isn't chaos then we need laws. Laws can be the calibration.

I just think that we'd be where we are (within reason) with or without religion. Given that I believe that the idea of God was created by man I would say that we did get here all by ourselves.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

And of course while we extend this to all of humanity based on the culture we were raised in, plenty of cultures have/had no issue at all with killing and raping outside of the in-group.

When all your neighbours, work colleagues all pray in the same place at the same time 5 times a day 7 days a week absence is noticeable

Poverty is rife, slavery / servitude is endemic, poor access to education for much of the muslim world, fervent religious and political leaders who can keep people in their box by explaining its "all but for ______ " we'd be fine......

I worked with - the only way i can describe them is - religiously conservative progressive muslims e.g. doctors, their wives were doctors / professionals and their daughters were well educated (in one case one couples three daughters are all doing medicine in the US / OZ and Bahrain)

These guy's are the exceptions amongst the regional population, the 1% if you will. They want for nothing, are well travelled, well educated etc
The problem is the several hundred million of their bretheren who are not and are definitely not at the enlightened end of the spectrum.

I'm not comparing the current practice of Islam and Christianity, I'm comparing attitudes toward separation of church and state. The same wall of separation of church and state that is used against ten commandment monuments at courthouses also prevents the implementation of Sharia law.

Neither Christianity nor Islam are going away any time soon. About 1/3 of mankind is Christian and about 1/5 of mankind is Muslim. Believers are just going to have to learn to respect each other and find a way to live in peace.

Glass half empty? I always thought religion was about selling the really awesome afterlife? It wasn't until some smartypants asked "what are my other choices?" that burning in hell came into the discussion.

I've never lived in fear of Hell. I've been to Bad Water California in early September.

Or not.........

You are assuming that they NEED to do it. They dont.

This is a problem of demographics. Ask Israel. Muslims are growing. Christians are not.

I only see this getting worse. Many of these countries have been ruled by families who have bribed the populace. The cash is running out. Just ask SA about the Aramco IPO. They are burning through their sovereign wealth.

Moving away from foss fuels is actually going to compound the problem of poverty and extremism and anitpathy towards western values

I agree and never said otherwise.


I don't agree, given the level of civilization in many countries with which we are unfamiliar, but that is another debate.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Exactly! Which also undercuts any claim we are born with a calibrated moral compass.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Back on topic the father of the guy who blew himself up didn't do it. You see, he spoke to him 5 days ago and he seemed "normal", so obviously he couldn't have done it.

http://globalnews.ca/...salman-abedi-father/

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Yes I don't think that claim is defensible. You gain a moral compass through enculturation.

This just in Terrorism expert Katy Perry gives the solution to this massacre. No Barriers and No Borders. I hope she leads by example and offers to house 100 refugees in her walled in and gated properties.




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(3:30 mark)

I am pretty certain you have no idea if he was or he wasn't poor

Yes its islam

Yes poverty plays a part

Yes they come from all parts of the economic spectrum

I was not sayings its exclusively a cause plus islam.

Its islam, but it would be idiotic to assume its islam in a vacum with no other factors or there'd be a billion suicicide bombers

If you want to understand. Islam and these terroist, this video is worth watching:

THE VERSE OF THE SWORD: SURA 9:5 AND JIHAD

Sahih International: And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

Unfortunately, decent people are brainwashed from the day they are born to follow their religious leaders. These religious leaders can use the actual word of God to manipulate.
This passion for their god praying 5 times a day (or be beaten) and jihad like orders are a toxic mix.

I've a pretty good idea i lived and worked in the region for 7 years

Not to derail from a perfectly good off-topic religious argument, but Ariana Grande is offering to pay for the victims funerals.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...ictims-funerals.html

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Father and brother of KILLER just arrested.

this also just in:

pop singer apparently does not have nuanced grasp of geopolitics and security in foreign countries.

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I heard the same along with a few others. Whats really infuriating is that I just heard a Brit reporter say that the local police chief ( or some similar person) came out almost immediately and said that hatred against certain groups would not be tolerated. This was right after the person listed the number of KNOWN jihadis who have traveled overseas recently along with the total know number in country. So the police chief is ok and does nothing about invaders that would kill out of hatered but threatens his own people who were just attacked. You can't make this shit up along with the horrible reaction of so many acting shocked and that somehow now they must have better security. Ya think?

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~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

So... The answer is to hate Muslims?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

that's ok, the View Crew (whoopi and team) had a serious issue with trump calling the killer a "evil loser".

Even you are not really this stupid.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Here is a weird thing. My girlfriend's brother in law is blaming Ms. Grande because she is a liberal who hates America. He wasn't joking.

That is weird.

To show how out of touch I am with the new "music" these days, when I read Ariana Grande concert, I thought they were talking about an arena, stadium, etc. I did not Ariana Grande was a pop singer.


And who the fuck is this Katy Perry? Is that the woman that did a song with Snoop Dog?

Katy Perry is a nightmare. I only know Ariana Grande because she juts out her chin when she makes a point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-4GkdupfTw

LOL...
Sounds like the Obama administration. Love and Jobs is all they need and they will stop killing us..


I have a snoop dog song with Katy on it. Some say its a Katy song with snoop dog. I prefer the latter, but it still doesn't stop me from being bullied at work when others hear that song come on.

"Sun-kissed skin so hot / we'll melt your popsicle" - that's pop music poetry right there.

LOL..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F57P9C4SAW4


I really need to delete this from my iTunes.....