What do you think people have a propensity to do that religion can prevent that say teaching people to simply be ethical couldn't?

Again, I am not saying religion is necessary for one to be ethical or for teaching people to be ethical. What I am saying is that, in general, religion teaches one to be ethical. Therefore, I rebut the blanket assertion the world would be better without religion. But, again, that is not to say religion is necessary to instill ethical behavior.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

The dogs I've had have all been pretty mellow and would never give such an order.

The cat on the other hand ...

Outraged & angry about this cowardly terror attack on a crowd of young people. Sending sympathy & strength to victims & people of Manchester
— Hillary Clinton (@HillaryClinton) May 23, 2017


Think Hillary is outraged about turning Libya into a violent shithole and the thousands of Libyans she killed, which motivated the bomber to get a small amount of payback?

Good to see Hillary is outraged and angry. Shows she really cares ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Many of the same Christians who are scared of Sharia law coming to the US see no problem with ten commandment monuments at courthouses, thinly veiled religion taught as "creationism" in biology classes, and religious sexual values taught as "abstinence only" sex education.


The difference of course is that the Muslims are murdering innocent people and targeting concerts because there are children there while Christians put up ten commandment monuments.


That's more than a slight difference.

It's not interesting at all that I left it out. It's simply irrelevant to the question of whether people would "live good lives" without religion. Your statement implies that the absence of religion among that 84% is that their lives, and by extension the lives of others around them, would be worse. As noted after my response, that depends entirely on what would exist absent that framework.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Nope. I did not make that assertion. I challenged the assertion that the absence of religion would make the world better. That is not the same thing.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

At a high level my take on that opinion piece is that the countries with the highest rates of crime and poverty etc are the ones that have the highest rate of religious followers (and vice versa) therefore religion creates violence and misfortune.


I think the stronger correlation is with poverty. The poor tend to be more religious as they need something to have faith in, that things will get better in this life or the next. The poor also have higher rates of crime for obvious reasons. I think it is poverty that creates crime and increases belief in a religion and not religion that creates crime and poverty.

Yeah, all those Mormon suicide bombers are really throwing a wrench in things.


After the reports came out about the bombing I bet that it was either Mormons or Buddhists and lost again. You would think that after 200 consecutive wrong guesses, I would start thinking it might be Muslim...

You read my second paragraph? My first was what I saw as the authors take on things and for which I totally disagree with.

I totally agree with you. People tend to head towards faith in their darkest hours. Not the other way around. That's why I believe the author of that piece has totally missed the mark.

You read my second paragraph?


OK, I went back and read the 2nd paragraph and I agree...:)

I'm curious about the differences between passive religion in the US vs Muslim countries. Here in the US, many (if not the majority) of religious folk don't practice their religion vigorously - in my opinion and personal observation most Catholics fall into this category.

As an example, my wife is Catholic. Why? Because she was born Catholic and grew up attending the Catholic Church. Then again, she's attended Catholic Church maybe a dozen times in the last 20 yrs and is pro-choice, supports gay rights, women's rights, pro birth control, etc, etc. She also reveres the Pope but is hardly a model Catholic. She knows little to nothing about the Bible. As for myself, it's complicated and irrelevant to my curiosity.

Mormons (to me) seem more disciplined as you're in or out, perhaps same with Johova Witness(es). As for the traditional American religions I see very few actually following the religion vigorously.

Seems to me certain Muslim countries operate politically as hard liners. A hard line Islamist is a scary proposition. As Alan Shearer mentioned, just because relatively few carry out acts of terrorism, many breed it. I see it to be analogous to a military where few actually fight on the front lines in actual combat, many more support the effort in some capacity.

What I'm curious about is whether or not true Muslims are required by their religion to kill infidels, but many Muslim countries are basically lazy Muslims like we are lazy (Catholics but insert traditional religion here) so no drive to carry out their religious obligations? If this is true, these Muslims connect to terrorists in the manner as non Muslims. I only care be use it informs my sentiment regarding refugees from hardline Muslim countries joining us in the US on,y because they're fleeing and not because they believe in and love America.

As for morality, I like the concept of Karma. If you've ever visited a country where this belief is widely held, it's a nice enforcer of morality with or without a God involved. As a counterbalance, Scientology is fucking crazy (I'm in SoCal so know some very wealthy people who are Scientologists). Thank God their religion doesn't require slaughtering non believers, these folks could fund an entire military!

I think most of ethics is metaphysical. For instance why care about poor people in africa. What can they do for me? Why care about elephants being shot in Africa. The mastadons and sabre toothed tigers went extinct a long time ago am I any poorer if the elephants disappear? Yet there is a story about some guy in Africa crushed by an elephant and almost everyone is upset. . Poor elephant. I never met the elephant and no one else did here. Why care about climate change? By the time it is important I likely will be dead. My kids might be affected but whatever I do will be but a drop in the bucket. My kids are better off if I make alot of money and pass it on to them so they can move someone where its not an issue. I care about all these things but is has nothing to do with reason.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

That's why I started studying and following Buddhism after being raised a fire and brimstone Catholic. But, Buddhists are not atheists, per se. They simply do not believe God is necessary to achieve enlightenment. Of course, I still believe in God, which, I have been told, is the primary reason I will never achieve enlightenment. That's fine, because my aura will have another opportunity after I am gone. ;-)

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My faith is similar to yours - I actually stepped back from organized religion in college and began to study the Bible as a literary work whilst exploring many religions. I often visited the Buddhists and they made more sense to me than anyone else. Karma influences me daily far more than Christianity, so I understand your response. Also, many, many who profess to the 'religious' are immoral. So, forgiveness as a catch all reset is an odd concept to me. Karma makes more sense.

Muslims and Islamists are an enigma.

Had I not traveled extensively, who knows? That's why my kids have been to many places, such as Thailand, Ecuador, Fiji, Europe, Mexico, etc etc and they're not yet out of high school. They have a more balanced mindset towards religion and religious concepts than I do and I'm old!

Was that sarcasm? No offense, but that sounds pathological to me - the idea that all human relationships and activities are personal transactions and of no value when no direct transaction can take place.

There are modern theories of neuroscience and psychology that propose pretty compelling ideas about how human empathy and altruism have perfectly rational benefits to humanity. You mean not consciously reason about each decision - that doesn't mean there's not a rational basis for them. Just like sexual attraction often isn't something we rationally decide to engage in, yet has a rational basis in the context of human evolution.

yes, I am that guy

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RayGovett
Hughson CA
Be Prepared-- Strike Swiftly -- Who Dares Wins- Without warning-"it will be hard. I can do it"

Well that's just plain harsh

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RayGovett
Hughson CA
Be Prepared-- Strike Swiftly -- Who Dares Wins- Without warning-"it will be hard. I can do it"

There is little passive religion in muslim countries

I lived in one for 7 years until last thursday. Qatar which is more conservative than UAE, Bahrain, Oman but less than kuwait and SA

Whilst some muslims may miss the first call to prayer at 3-4am. Almost none miss the remaining 4 unless their job prevents it e.g. surgeons (cant down tools)

In 7 years i met muslims who were passive / lapsed but i could count them on one hand

The difference between catholicism - as an example (me) - and islam is that whilst my grandmother went to church daily and 500-1000 years ago churchs were the single biggest draw in communities. Now that is not the case. In muslim countries it very much is still the case

There is no passivity in the countries attitude to religion. The families that rule these countries do through both cash and religion, the former keeps everyone on the side of the families, the latter keeps them all toeing the line

I have worked with western and middle eastern muslims.

My western colleagues primarily wanted their kids in an environment where they are less exposed to western cultural influences. The middle eastern ones varied from lebanese and algerians who are liberal to super conservative saudi's

I think you need to recognise that islam in terms of the way both countries and muslims approach their beliefs is pretty much the same way christianity was hundreds of years ago i.e. its all encompassing, its not changed and the fervency of belief is not diminished where as i am not sure that is so much the case with christianity - as an example

I often visited the Buddhists and they made more sense to me than anyone else.


A lot of Western countries teach the Coles notes version of Buddhism and that has a lot of appeal because it's easy, makes people feel good and really doesn't take a lot of work. You don't have to go to church, you don't have to give money or follow rules. The Precepts in Buddhism are really just like the 10 Commandments, something most people follow anyways.


I lived in Thailand for a year and studied Buddhism, when to retreats and spent a lot of time around the people. Once you get past the superficial, it really starts to get complex and hard to understand but most people don't go that far. They like the basics but almost no one I knew in Thailand could explain clearly the Thai Buddhist doctrine.

Most of humanity has a built in moral compass. Religion tries to scare people into sticking to their moral compass.

I don't need the fear of hell to be a good person. Nor do you or any of us.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Western Buddhism also largely ignores the supernatural mumbo jumbo which makes it a lot more appealing to rationalists who want some kind of spiritual practice.

It's good that God created all of us that way.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR