You realize this is proposal right? Not a statement?

This will escalate quickly ...

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Well Dave can you give us any insight regarding if they are looking to change locations or if there is any merit in this? I know it's a proposal only, but is it something they are exploring?
Vineman 70.3 used to be my favorite race of the year, but after the cluster this year with racking the bikes on Saturday and just another LONG day waiting for a bus after the race, and the long ride back...I'd welcome anything that helps the logistics of this race. But dang I do love that course!

https://www.facebook.com/...nk/1034807266645558/

Active link

If IronmanTM proposed this, they want to move the race no matter what....and Santa Rosa is just one viable option...
as fierce IronmanTM critic, i would sign up in a heart beat.....(i mean it's not that i am running for Pres or any).

Registration for Ironman Vineman 2017 is open. If that's the case, would WTC move the race and offer transfers/refunds? Even if this is just a proposal, is there a doubt now about where the race will be next year? Are we looking another IM Texas Debacle Version 2!?

The host venue agreement has the 70.3 on May 13th for 2017 then moving to late July through 2021. The Ironman race is scheduled for July 29th 2017 and then moving to mid May for the final four years of the contract.

https://santa-rosa.legistar.com/...F2-A774-677505A4D374

Thanks dwreal. It's pretty obvious then that Guerneville will not be hosting in 2017 should this proposal go through, and even if it doesn't get approved, there's some major doubt about the venue rolling into 2017. Oh the speculation!

I'd like to know where I will be racing Vineman BEFORE I sign up....
But I guess there are many/enough who don't.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/270797679981333/

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That's apples to oranges. The OP references an Ironman proposal and I'm only talking about the IM schedule for North America. Right now IM Texas is the sole race from Jan through Jun. In this context, Wildflower and Auburn are not relevant.

We do have Boulder in June now as well ... so if all things stay true with proposals etc we would now have Ironman's in North America in April / May / June ... July / August / September / October / November (more back-loaded AUG-early OCT)

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

I completely forget about that shift...but definitely a step in the right direction for balance.

Not sure how you have the swim at Lake Sonoma and the "venue" at Julliard Park in downtown Santa Rosa? Lake Sonoma is a great place to swim but access is very difficult and very limited parking. They used to have a tri up there years ago called the IceBreaker. If they can figure out a way it would be cool but only large parking or staging area is a LONG way up a dirt trail or launch ramp and access road.

Julliard Park is filled with homeless and druggies...what a great choice!

Easy way to solve this would be to bus everyone in. A lot of folks took buses for IMLT.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

same thing for Boulder, Buses only into the swim on race day

Easy way to solve this would be to bus everyone in. A lot of folks took buses for IMLT.
same thing for Boulder, Buses only into the swim on race day.
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Same deal for Silverman and ST George they just bused "most" athletes to the swim start. Not mandatory but highly suggested.

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Train safe & smart
Bob

Dave Latourette wrote:

You realize this is proposal right? Not a statement?

You read through the docs, right? It's practically a done deal.Ironman 70.3 Santa Rosa: Saturday 5/13/17; 7/28/18; 7/27/19; 7/25/20; 7/24/21
Ironman Santa Rosa: Saturday 7/29/17; 5/12/18; 5/11/19; 5/9/20; 5/8/21

St George is a week before proposed Vineman 70.3. Bummer for the many that do both.

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Team Zoot So Cal

Ironman coming to Santa Rosa!

http://www.pressdemocrat.com/...anta-rosa?artslide=0

Whistler and Frankfurt also bus everyone to the start. It generally seems to go smoothly.

Just wait until you see how long and steep the climb is from the water up to the bike staging area. That will be a doozy. Then you have a pretty fast descent down to Dry Creek Valley while you are still wet and cold. All those crappy triathlete bike handlers will love it ;-)

That would only apply to 2017. In 2018, per the article, the 70.3 would move to July.

Yes, but I have already signed up for St George. Bummer.

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Team Zoot So Cal

If you bus everyone to the swim start don't you still have the problem of everyone having to drop their bikes the day before, at a place with limited access and parking? Seems like it would be just as big a problem as Guerneville.

Happy I did my first (and apparently my last) Vineman 70.3 this year.

Running around Santa Rosa seems less appealing to me (without knowing the run course) than running in Windsor too.

'Love' this comment on that article. It's a miracle we've got any races to participate in.

Awecomeon Makai Kalii • 2 hours ago
Being told by police that I have to make a 2 mile detour to get to my house when I can see my house from the road block then to have the next policeman at the next roadblock tell me that info was wrong, I need to back track 5 miles around to the other side of the closure. Then listening to their supporters scream and holler in front of my peaceful rural home for 10+ hours straight, driving the dogs crazy. Volunteers parked blocking my driveway. If I wanted to live like that I would move to town. Happy to see you leave Windsor.

So this means 2016 was the one and only "Ironman" Vineman? Glad I could participate in the short history of that race :)

I'm so annoyed by this change. I hate inaugural courses and I'm registered for this race. I did the inaugural Chattanooga where they had the run elevation incorrect and I learned I cannot rely on the website for information. Are you local to the area? I'm already committed to the full in 2017 so I'll be looking for information as it becomes available.

Not familiar with the area but just looking at google maps that's a heck of a long way from the swim to T2 for a point to point. I heard that day before race stuff was bad enough at Vineman, this is twice as far? Looks like a PITA to be honest.

Has the venue change been confirmed yet? I'm not from the area so all I know was that the council was meeting to discuss and approve or reject the proposal. I haven't seen a yes or no yet, but I share your angst about the change.

The article says they vote tonight

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Is parking and access worse than Guerneville? For spectators, is finishing at Julliard Park worse than Windsor HS in 95 degree, lots of pavement, and no shade?

Homeless and druggies - Boulder had its share of them.

I'm assuming it'll be months then until the course is released as they'll have to get permits, etc. I was looking to do Vineman in 2017 but I'm not going to sign up blind to an unknown course which won't be released until a few weeks before raceday #IMTexasV2

If you bus everyone to the swim start don't you still have the problem of everyone having to drop their bikes the day before, at a place with limited access and parking? Seems like it would be just as big a problem as Guerneville.

Yes, and in my experience the bike drop off has been done with buses as well. It's worked smoothly every time I've done it.

Do you mean it's worked smoothly at Lake Sonoma?

It does look very far. That would mean you'd have to get up real early on race day morning for a long bus ride. St George also has a long bus ride, but not as far as Lake Sonoma to Santa Rosa. I'm not familiar with either the lake nor the city so maybe both are spectacular making it easily worth it?

Santa Rosa has a nice little downtown (looked like a lot of homeless and gutter punks when we were there pre-Vineman this summer though), but there's nothing spectacular about Santa Rosa, and Lake Sonoma is just another Nor Cal reservoir -- nothing to write home about.

http://santa-rosa.granicus.com/...=5&event_id=1637

Live stream of their council meeting...looks like their on a break. I don't feel like watching but maybe theyll talk about it.

In Reply To:

Edit: notes say they went over it and approved.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED that the Council of the City of Santa Rosa
approves, and authorizes the City Manager to execute, the Ironman Host Venue Agreement for
Santa Rosa’s participation in the Ironman and Ironman 70.3 events attached as Exhibit A hereto,
subject to approval as to form by the City Attorney.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that Exhibit A is made part of this Resolution.
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that the Council authorizes the City Manager to approve
and execute a Memorandum of Understanding between the Chamber of Commerce and City of
Santa Rosa related to Ironman and Ironman 70.3 events, in substantially the same form as
Exhibit B attached hereto, subject to approval as to form by the City Attorne

Bring back Lake Tahoe IMLT :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Lake Sonoma is actually very nice. Us locals ride up Rockpile Ridge (up past the bridge) all the time and there are lots of mountain biking and trail running races up there. The issue is just access since the lake surrounded by canyons. Water is much nicer for swimming than the river which frankly gets a bit nasty in summer (and I paid my way through college working summers as lifeguard on the river).

If they can work out logistics it is much better and more dependable venue that Russian River. It is controlled by the Army Corp of Engineers so that should be interesting dealing with them, but there are many different events up there through the year. Right below the damn is a nice visitors center and fish hatchery for family members to visit during race as well.

Santa Rosa is kind of dumpy. Why mess with something that has worked for 27 years? Also, why are they not keeping the Vineman name. This change makes no sense...

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

Ironman seems to want to move everything to a consistent IM branded name (IM-location name). Just look at Big Kahuna and B2B. This is very common for large brand companies.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

The City of Santa Rosa and their Chamber of Commerce pay WTC to host the race, so the name of the race was probably a key part of the deal.

Superfrog is still Superfrog at least....for now. =/

This is a big bummer, but probably inevitable once WTC took over. I'm sure Santa Rosa were willing and able to pay more than Guerneville or Windsor.

h2ofun wrote:

Bring back Lake Tahoe IMLT :)

Well, you'll get the same RD, at least (Dave Reid) :)

Totally agreed. Lake Sonoma would be a huge upgrade over swimming in Russian River.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Sure looks like Wildflower is no more, at least for the time being.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Well, Its now Ironman 70.3 Superfrog.

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

I'm sure contractually Santa Rosa has the naming rights ... plus it bears no resemblance to "Vineman" any longer

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Not sure if this was posted and I missed it but Ironman just posted this on Youtube...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odBpVGWahR4

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Twitter - Instagram

Seems like a done deal according to the email I got from WTC.

ANNOUNCING IRONMAN SANTA ROSA & IRONMAN 70.3 SANTA ROSABased on athlete feedback there will be a shift in venue for IRONMAN Vineman and IRONMAN 70.3 Vineman to Santa Rosa, CA (less than 10 miles from theprevious location) and we are renaming the events based on this new location. If you have been considering taking on either race in 2017 you can be one of the first athletes to enjoy the new location. Below are the details on this move:

• IRONMAN Santa Rosa will still offer 40 qualifying slots available to the 2017 IRONMAN World Championship
• IRONMAN 70.3 Santa Rosa will still offer 50 qualifying slots to the 2017 IRONMAN 70.3 World Championship
• Moving to Santa Rosa, CA will provide additional options for local accommodations
• We will provide an option for athletes to check-in the day before the race (Friday) to make it easier for athletes to travel to Santa Rosa and require fewer nights in a hotel. Local athletes will benefit the most from this new check-in option.
• The new Lake Sonoma swim venue will provide deep clean water with enhanced visibility swim buoys.
• New swim to bike transition will be much more spacious and on a paved asphalt surface.
• The nature of the roads for the bike course will remain similar to the IRONMAN Vineman course with continual views of Sonoma County vineyards.
• The new run course removes athletes from roads open to vehicles while providing more shade throughout the course.
• IRONMAN 70.3 Vineman will also be moving to Santa Rosa. That race will take place on May 13 and will still provide a great opportunity for a training race in your 2017 schedule. Athletes will also be able to register for IRONMAN 70.3 Santa Rosa as a relay, a first for this event! Registration for IRONMAN 70.3 Santa Rosa will open on Tuesday, October 25.

We are happy to announce these changes as a direct result of athlete feedback. We want to keep the positive aspects that athletes love about IRONMAN Vineman while providing an overall enhanced experience for athletes, spectators, families and friends.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Any reason why this is in reply to me?

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

You were probably the last poster when he hit reply and started typing his post...

Because you were stating that it is just a proposal?

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Correct, it was just a proposal when the thread was started 4 days ago

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Anybody familiar with the run course along Santa Rosa Creek Trail? Wondering if there are plenty of trees for shade since it's along a creek.

R.I.P. Vineman. Very sad about this turn of events...

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http://dontletitdefeatyou.blogspot.com

50% dirt / 50% pavement ... some shade pending time of day & location on trail

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

So who is the RD for IMSR?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Is it wetsuit legal that time of year?
Run looks flat....what about the bike?

I am guessing that it is wetsuit legal in May.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

Depending on the year, water in the lakes could still be in low 50's, just depends

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Run is or the most very flat

Bike will overall be pretty quick (faster than Vineman versions) as it has net elevation loss (start to finish) and runs "down valley"

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

Re the swim: I'm sure it will be legal for age groupers. Don't know about pros.

Wow, WTC has zero shame. They post a race that people shell out money for, and then they change the whole damn thing. Let me guess, they're also going to make getting a refund damn near impossible. I'm sure somewhere on that Active form there was a clause indicating that they could change the course to wherever, whenever, and whatever they wanted. Lawyer up you sons of motherless goats, I get a refund or we're going to litigate this bitch for false advertising, fraud, misrepresentation, hell by the time I'm done I plan to see if they might have committed acts against nature. Infuriating! OR, maybe they just nicely give a refund, and I haven't read that yet....there's always that.

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

I'm not reading through all the replies to see if this is addressed, but this past year for Vineman they changed the run course the week of the race. Nothing is a given.

Was that meant to be in pink? Does moving a race 9 or10 miles away make it refund worthy? That was rhetorical so best you not answer. :-)

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I just looked at the course map. I'm actually just happy something is already posted. The Bike coming soon isn't so great but I'll try to be patient. 50% dirt doesn't make me very happy but we'll see.

Dirt makes you unhappy? The softer surface during an Ironman feels amazing. The only bad part about the Tremblant course is that they paved the previously gravel section.

Funny... the dirt part is a major reason why I'm considering this race.

Earlier in my life I lived in Santa Rosa. My reaction to the race moving from scenic Guerneville / Healdsburg to Santa Rosa-based is a bit negative. Vineman 70.3 was on my "to do" list for either 2017 or 2018. Might have to rethink.

I'm happy about the Lake Sonoma swim. Might be the best swim yet.

The people who liked to take a walk in the Russian River during the swim are probably not happy that they now HAVE to swim the entire way. Other than that, yeah, I don't get the outrage either.

When you post a product for sale on your website and then you change it to something else after hundreds of people, maybe thousands, have already paid for said product, the consumer should expect "a given". If I ordered a shirt online, and I got a brick in the mail that would be equivalent to what this is. The course and maps have been posted since JULY. I don't want to run on a 50/50 trail/ road course. If I did I'd enter an Xterra race. I liked the Russian River swim, which is why I registered for this race. I like the little rollers and climbs, which is why I registered for this race. WTC seems to have real issues these days keeping the product true to what is advertised. Yes, Vineman's run course changed, Texas' bike course changed (and they didn't even do a full IM), Maryland had weather issues, etc etc etc, and who knows what happen to European races. Earth to WTC, this is how you lose customers.

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Did you do the race? If not then I'm pretty sure you might not be aware that the parts you had to walk likely slowed you down. Was it comfortable to stand on slippery pointy rocks, and not be able to get a full stroke, not really. Was it cool to swim in the Russian River, yea actually it was. For those of us who can swim well, it wasn't an issue, and for those who can't swim well, I never saw large groups of people meandering down the river like they were window shopping at the mall. Maybe next year they can change Kona to Beijing, and then we can all wonder why anyone's outraged about that.

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Okay... so your previous comments weren't meant to be in pink.

The race moved 9 miles away, dude. 9 miles.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

As somebody coming from the trail/ultrarunning world to triathlon, seeing 50% of the run course on dirt makes me very happy. I was not considering doing this race since I had done the 70.3 a couple years in a row, but the change may lead me to sign up.

It could be 2 miles away, it doesn't matter, ITS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT RACE. TOTALLY DIFFERENT. The swim is in a different body of water, the bike is going to be mostly downhill, the run is on dirt and road. NOT THE SAME RACE. Part of the reason people come back to these races year after year is to try and better their time on that course. Vineman has been pretty much the same course for almost 30 years.

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

It's been a few years since I did Vineman, but wasn't part of that run on the dirt? the section around the vineyard?

If you don't get your refund, you can always start a gofundme campaign to pay for your next race.

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TEAM F3 Undurance

I know - I'm a weirdo I'm not a fan of running on trails but I have plenty of time to practice for it so it's all good.

Somebody said the bike was mostly downhill. How did they know that? Today when I looked it says coming soon. Just curious.

The run was a triple loop w/ a little bit of up and down. I've got a little bit of shame. More than happy to bitch about it, and be unhappy with the changes, but damn who does that?

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All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/.../?page=unread#unread

Here you go. Seemed to work out well for this guy.

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TEAM F3 Undurance

The 70.3 bike course is online and it's net downhill. The Santa Rosa course uses only 6 mi. of the old Vineman course and about 15 mi going the opposite direction. More freeway frontage and city streets and less riding through the redwoods. The first 3 miles are a fast 40+ mph descent which is going to make for some interesting clothing decisions

3mi descend at 40mph? that's like 900ft elevation drop if grade is 6% which is what you'd need to get up to 40mph.

Yes parts are at an 11% grade. I'm not even a good descender and I hit 40 without pedaling on a road bike. Couple that with being wet from the swim on a 50 degree May morning and athletes are going to get cold. I hope people plan for that.

One can easily be hitting 40+ mph on that descent if they want ...

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Dave Latourette
http://www.TTENation.com

If we could survive riding at IMLT in the 20's race morning, that is sauna temps :)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

What would you say are the typical lake temps in May?

I listened to the RD's facebook live presentation yesterday. Think he said for May the water temps would be mid-60s. Low 70s for the full in July.