I saw his strava times. Unreal.

And apparently his swim is improving.

This does not bode well for the other pros.

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Advocating for research & treatment for Myalgic Encephalomyelitis (ME).
http://www.meaction.net/about/what-is-me/

"Suck it up, Buttercup"
(me, to myself, every day)

The sheer volume Lionel puts in is amazing, and most of it is on the trainer and treadmill. Check out his website and read his posts from Kona this fall, it is amazing the mileage he put in day after day. If he can stay healthy, and if his swim continues to improve, Lionel is going to be a lot of fun to watch this year. Sounds like there was a film crew along for the ride yesterday, hopefully we get to see some footage soon.

I think I will unfollow him on strava. His workouts show up on my feed and it just depresses me.

Yup, He has the bike/run speed that as long as he's within 3-4' to of T1, he can take control of the race the same way Keinle did. Ride so fast that everyone has to react to what your doing, rather that their own race. You don't have a shot at winning or probably even a podium this year without running a sub 2:50 and unless it's windier than last year, the bike record will fall.. and it might fall anyway. The winner this year WILL run sub 2:50 AND bike under 2:20. Possibly sub 2:45 if there's a real dual out on the course. Some athletes might be going to a very, very dark place to win. You could see some real carnage the last 5k. It could be epic and awesome! If the winds are lighter, the winner will break 8 hours.

But hey, maybe I'm too optimistic here.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Alongside Lionel's natural gifts and work ethic is humility and respect. He is an incredibly humble, authentic and thankful person to be where he is and where he's going. My upmost respect for him.

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@rhyspencer

It's ironic he would go to Tucson during the winter when he spent all last summer on the trainer and treadmill.
Should be a fun year to watch him; Oceanside, IMTX, Roth, Kona.

Haven't I been preaching this story to you since Sept? ;)

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Is there a strava segment for the whole climb? Do you have a link? Just curious.

I get that the guy is an amazing athlete and I get that it will be exciting to watch him this year but two questions come to mind from the perspective of arm chair QB:

1) why do we feel the need to call him the real deal? If he were the real deal, it would be self-evident.

2) if he were the real deal, why wasn't he pulling down a million bucks at Challenge Dubai? To me, someone who is the real deal would have been at that race.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Guarantee the winner doesn't bike under 2:20. Lawl.

 
i truly don't understand why he wouldn't switch to bike racing ... much better money.

Maybe he felt like he had the swim, bike and run capabilities but not the map reading skills just yet......

bike racing is not a healthy sport.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

https://www.strava.com/segments/527881

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Alex Arman

Strava

he could have landed at 6am in Dubai and by 7:15 be cranking out 355 watts for 1h45 and then be back home in AZ by dinner.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Having had the luxury of the full weekend as his coach, I would like to add a few notes in on the Lionel Sander Thread. First off, I was honoured all last week to have Paul Thomas work with my young university athletes. His bike and run knowledge is incredible and the athletes in my camp learned much from the Tucson pro biker (former top University runner).

Lionel has had an interesting last 16 months. His first major win in Muskoka 70.3 in Sept of 2013 put him on the map (sort of). He worked hard all last year, spent the winter in Tucson and got schooled a few times early when he was just learning how to race in BIG events. After Utah, he wondered if he should even be trying to be a pro, when he was a non-factor. By mid-summer, finally on his new Louis Garneau Time Trial Bike, he started to ride some very fast times (near 2hrs and even breaking 2hrs in a half Ironman 90km ride). His swims were weak and his runs were often incredible with some 69 min runs off the bike. Likely his highlight was the 4th place at 70.3 Worlds behind 3 legends and the day's fastest bike+run split.

The year was capped off with a bitter sweet day in Florida. Sweet with the win by nearly 20 minutes over some great athletes. Bitter because the cancelled swim meant that some would question his Ironman talents as a weaker swimmer. Although biased, I have no doubt he would have been under 8hrs in his pro debut (likely 7:55-56 on what was a windy day).

We were very lucky in the off-season to secure some world-class partners to be a part of Lionel's journey. Louis Garneau has believed in him since the begining and are excited they are a big part of his future. Skechers Performance Shoes have come on, and Lionel is loving their equipment. A great healthy food restaurant chain called Freshii, has many USA outlets but was started in Toronto has really gotten behind Lionel and will be helping him in many ways (not just financially). Computrainer, Nineteen Wetsuits and numerous other partners have stayed involved from 2014. He is very appreciative of the support he has gotten.

Lionel moved back to Windsor Ontario (just 20min from where he grew up in Harrow Ontario) and with his new fiance has started a great situation in Windsor. A terrific swim coach is now working wit him and he is moving in the right direction on his swimming. No world-records, but he has improved every single month and finally feels like he is understanding what swimming is (not just thrashing about). We expect improvement for the next 2+ years in the water.

Lionel has done his usual hard indoor treadmill and computrainer work all winter and came to my camp in Tucson very fit. Not race ready, but healthy and fit. He got his new Louis Garneau bike on Thr and flew on Friday morning to Tucson. By 4pm we were on the side of Mt Lemmon on a very cool, windy day. I told him if he wasn't past the 5 mile mark by 20 minutes (this is all up hill) then we were turning around and going home. True to his competitive nature, he went through 5 miles on his fastest time ever (18 min59 seconds) and continued to ride through very windy conditions to the top of the Ski Hill on Mt Lemmon 26+ miles away. His best time ever had been 1hr 42 min and on the day he rode 1hr 39 minutes and change and out rode any other time we could find. That was Friday

On Saturday he did a high quality run workout, a good swim and an easy bike with his mom (who is in town for the camp).

Sunday morning the conditions were incredible. Cool, no real wind and he decided with wind and rain expected for a few days in Tucson, that he would pound a hard effort up the mountain. Lava Magazine had their editor in the car with me. A documentary crew was filming him on a motorcycle (riding beside or behind him as he didn't want to be accused of drafting a vehicle up the mountain).

He went through 5 miles in 18min 30 second (nearly 30 seconds faster than 2 days before) then continued to pound new PB's all the way up the mountain. He went through Windy Point (a logcial stop off place for top pro cyclists at 14 miles up the mountain) in 53 minutes and change. I understand from local pros that this is a very very good time for those just going to Windy Point. This was essentially Lionel's half-way point of the ride. He got to the top of the mountain in 1hr 34 minutes and 40 seconds. It was really a very emotional day for me. Cars were turning around and following him up the mountain because they knew something special was occurring. His mom and fiance were riding the mountain (we have a picture of him blowing by them at mile 8). The time of 1hr 34+ was nearly 7 minutes faster then we can find. I am sure there are other similarly amazing rides that have been done over the years, but that were not recorded or have long-since been forgotten. The magic of the day was the camera were rolling, the Lava Magazine editor was there. His mom and fiance were on the mountain.

In true Lionel humble status, he shared his day's joy with his team-mates and family last night at a local Tucson restaurant.

Lionel has big plans this year, but we both know that the competiton is stronger than it has ever been. More countries are developing more world-class long distance athletes. We are both excited that Lionel is just one of a dozen men who are capable of winning on any given day. He knows he has lots of work to do, and he knows that endurance sport has more DOWNS than UPS. Its just the nature of endurnace racing. Yesterday was one of those UP days. For me, sitting in the van, watching him for 90+ minutes, it was a very powerful - enjoyable experience. Knowing where he was 5 years ago and knowing where he is today.

Barrie Shepley
Voice of the ITU Triathlons and very proud coach today

 
wtf does that mean? would you say thatiron distance races are healthy?

cycling, as a sport, and as a culture, is not healthy.

And as a concerned citizen and fan of LS's progression, with cycling being a real sport, only the talented make it to the top. The rest are just fodder for the gristmill. I wouldn't wish that amount of suffering on anyone. Finally, I'm sort of saying that while impressive in Triathlon, LS would be run of the mill in cycling.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

 
ah ok ... i can agree with your view, though i think he'd be better than run of the mill.

neither is ironman!

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

well, pretty simple to get an idea.
what are his watts/kg for ~60 minutes, and 5 seconds and 1 minute?
heh

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

From a doping perspective?

I'm talking the culture the sport, not the effects on the body of the activity. Triathlon, for all its warts, is a pretty positive place to be.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

No idea how the two compare there, currently.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Although, you'd have to admit that popping out a 2:20 bike could at least put you in position for a Kona podium, no matter how crappy your swim or run went.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I asked him yesterday afterward - ran into him having lunch post ride - why not try for the Olympics. When he gave me an answer I completely understood. He just loves long course racing. Sport at the highest level is brutal and you absolutely have to long the sport in order to succeed. It was instantly clear he loved long-course triathlon.

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Lionel doesn't even start rocking till the 3rd hour, so ITU racing, is not inline with either his physiology OR his mentality. He has trained with many of my top young ITU athletes and he admires the skills they have the type of racing and training they do. He simply loves to hurt for as long as possible and to try to wear his competition down over a mental battle, versus a speed to the finishing line battle of ITU. I am both of these races regularly and love them both. Each has a unique set of skills and fitness they require to exceed. So far only a handful of people like Daniela, Nicola, Jan, Javier, Tim and Brent McMahon have really been able to do both at a very high level. The 70.3 and Ironman offer up enough of a challenge right now for Lionel to master.

FTP / CP / MLSS / CP60 whatever you want to call it....

5+ w/kg would be reasonably good at pro level (doubt it's that low)
5.4+ w/kg would be very impressive doubt more than a few peeps can crack that
5.6+ w/kg would be seriously impressive....

IMHO....probably in region of 5.4 based on back of envelope calculations.

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David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com

ericM40-44,

The reason why I call him the real deal is the same why I would call you the real deal if you came to Tucson and did the same effort.....Regardless if you can't run and swim like this kid, I would still call you the real deal on the bike. I think I can ride pretty damn good, and I could not have ridden his wheel up the mtn. Lots of bad mother fuckers have come through tucson that can not ride what he did. There is so much meat left on the bone for this kid, his room for improvoment is huge. Take a peek at his po dunk races in his career so for......Frost your Fanny 5k....Rudolph the Red Nose Reindeer Ride and Tie......he has had virtually no exposure to greatness.

You can rain on the parade here, but remember that I would be saying the same thing about you if you rode like he did up Lemmon. I love giving credit, when it is due!

PT

PS. Neither of the Brownlees were chasing the million dollars last week......they are also the real deal!

There are many wiser people of bike wattages and capacity. So I am not able to discuss these details inteligently. BUT, I sat at supper last night in Tucson with an internationally recognized pro bike coach who lives in Tucson. He has been here for camps for 30 years and has coached Tour riders and Olympic medalists. He has also produced World Champions. So I think he likely has forgotten more than I could ever learn. He sat next to Lionel at supper and he quized Lionel on many topics. It was a truly entertaining supper and one I wont quickly forget. He told Lionel, that in early March, his top pros over the years rode to WIndy Point in roughly 53min. This is the 14 mile mark of Mt Lemmon (on road bikes). He was very impressed that such an inexperienced rider so early in the year, on only his second ride outside on a brand-new bike could ride that time (and then keep going to the top of the Ski Hill at such a fast pace). He was clear that the top elite guys would be faster later in the year, but for March 1st, it was a legitimate bike time. I can tell you that watching Lionel from behind for 91 minutes, its clear that he is VERY GREEN and will only get faster by simply holding better lines, and cornering more effectively. With great riders like Gord Fraser, Paul Thomas and many others to perhaps help with helping improve Lionel's biking skills, he will only become a more complete endurance athlete.

As an aside, we are planning on riding the Ontario Time Trial Championships on May 30th for a fun, learning experience.

There is also a lot more to being a good bike racer than just being really strong on a bike. First, you have to be strong in specific ways that can help you win a bike race, but also tactics, technical skills, and personality matter a lot in racing bikes.

I'm not saying Lionel Sanders lacks these skills, but I think it's a frequent misunderstanding to assume that because someone has a high FTP or puts down fast bike splits, they could easily transition to pro cycling. I don't pretend to be an expert triathlete or cyclist, but in my limited experience in both, I've found them to be very different sports.

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http://snappletriteam.com/

oooh nice! how about TT nats in June too :-)

Nobody is going to give you spank bank material

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Internet User

100% he should. If he wins, he should be able to race in the Maple Leaf at Kona.

Ken

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

Everyone who spends time with LS reports that he is a great guy, humble, hard working and genuinely nice. I really like to hear that. Sometimes being "nice" is, I don't know, unappreciated. I am rooting for him for certain.

That said, enough of the LS love fest! How is going to improve his swim if he is swimming 1 out of 3 days and that 1 swim is sandwiched between some heavy biking and running. I know this is only a glimpse of his training, but it reads a lot like the glimpses we saw last fall on youtube. Do something on the bike that is jaw-dropping, follow it up with an extraordinary run, oh and then get in a swim at night.

Maybe he can achieve his goals with a 56XX swim but I doubt it. The Oro Valley pool opens at 5 AM, I would love to read about the epic set of 100's that was done before most people had their fist cup of coffee...

Male and female winners at Kona last year are not exactly known for being great swimmers.

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Alex Arman

Strava

Sure they are
He did 348 watts for 1:38
he is around 165lbs
Knowing that 1 hour to 1.5 hour power is fairly constant among people, it would imply a 1 hour power of around EDIT: 385 watts at best

This puts him at around 5.1 w/kg, which would be low level domestic pro.

So yeah I think he if didn't swim and bike and bumped it up to 5.5 or so, massssybe he can be a world tour domestique (skills allowing)

Which IS impressive, but sometimes we get carried away on here and imagine our triathlete uber bikers could give Wiggo a run for his money.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

 
if he beats tuft i'll buy you a car.

In comparison to Keinle: there is a big difference between being a second tier swimmer and doing a significant amount of the race by yourself. 56 minutes he should be fine, 57, maybe, 58 and hmmm long day...

no rain on no parades. I would disagree with the construct of your argument that because I made the comments I made, that I'm selling short on LS. Quite the contrary, I'm a fan, and I think he's impressive.

I did the Mt. Lemmon climb once... made the selection at the Saturday Worlds or whatever they call it. We eventually got dropped by an old man on a steel round-tubed bike with shifters on down tubes. He was wearing really old Ray Ban sunglasses and natty kit.

Next, I would also disagree, nay laugh, that you would put LS in the same zip code as AB, but whatever. I thought it was a pertinent question though... why Mt. Lemmon instead of Dubai?

As others have said: he's awesome, so enough of the love fest. We're all rooting for him. If he truly is the real deal as you say, he doesn't need it, he will learn to swim, and the titles will come.

E

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Impressive.

Bagging Strava KOM's and being a training hero is different than showing up and winning on race day though.

Leave something for your races Lionel!

Just an arm chair guess I don't know him, but I think that his "team" (coaches advisors etc) might be trying to control his work a bit. He seams like a great guy and all that, but perhaps his work ethic might work against him in certain situations, IE being world class ready in February. Still a young athlete with lots to learn. In terms of training he might need a bit more "leash than whip" and setting up peak form (or close) in Feb might not be the best idea for this athletes personality.

Like I say, don't know him. Just arm chair QBing a bit like all the other LS threads.

Maurice

I've noticed this season, in bike racing, a lot of the people training 'too hard' this winter have won a lot of races already.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Not talking physiology, but personality within the context of physiology, training load and work ethic. This guy has a really big shovel, capable of digging a really big hole. I would say he's taking the long view, stay on course, work on swimming go to Tucson for some fun training and work, but low pressure situations.

Maurice

you make good points. If it were me, and I was in world beating shape in February, I'd go attempt to beat the world in Dubai, and perhaps get lucky and have as shot at $1M bucks.

But a controlled roll-out is a good plan... focus on the important things. Qualify for Kona. Excite the triathlon world (and perhaps inspire the athlete) with a great performance at Roth. Rest, consolidate fitness, and make a run at Kona, the pinnacle of our sport.

It's going to be a fun summer!

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

These are campfire or fishing #'s ONLY REAL. I could be by a campfire right now and listen to you guys break down the #'s, Watts/kilo etc. Seeing the way he trains and watching his progress is like watching someone get accepted into a college then graduate. I dig how he trains in a bedroom and puts out these #'s. Unreal. Excited to watch his career..

There was a legitimate reason he didn't make it over to Dubai, but he said looking back he would have really struggled in the swim conditions over there

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Got that right, 5.5 w/kg isn't getting you in the same zip code as the pro tour without baller anaerobic ability, skills and/or a weight of 80kg. Although LS might fair well at pro bike racing overall because of his durability under load, that is something I envy when thinking about racing 60+ days this year.

Yeah to compare to someone like Wiggins in a 40km TT I would say LS is down 40-60 watts of power and another 20-40 of aero. Nearly the same if we are talking about competing with Tuft at the Canadian champs. Not even close.

He he should stick to hunting the best in the world in tri I think.

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Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

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Since the beginning of the year, Lionel's plan has been to be at his peak in October at Kona. We are well aware that its a long year, and he needs to have some blocks of hard training, some easier recovery work and some key races as part of that preparation. Lionel was doing equally hard work last Feb & March and was in great shape in Sept (his 4th at 70.3 Worlds) and Nov (his win at Ironman Florida). As a young guy, we are still learning about his body, but I can tell you that he has recovered faster than any athlete I have ever seen in 30+ years and his passion and enjoyment is working hard and preparing properly for a limited number of races. We had looked at Dubai, but in a year where we wanted to go slowly and build towards Kona, we decided to stay in North America and start in Oceanside in 3 weeks. With lmited travel experience and a need to continue improving his swim, we decided that being closer to home was wisest. Finally, much has been said about Lionel not doing mega swim workouts this winter. He tried that in the past and it did not seem to work for his physiology and skill acquistion. Less swimming, more focus on better technique seems to be helping him improve (as he just did a life time PB by 30 seconds with that format).

I would say the biggest thing we are observing (and is likely obvious to most elite coaches) is that great athletes are very unique and they all don't need to do the exact same training program. Lionel is not going to be a lead pack swimmer in 2015. We are not being negative, we are simply being realistic. He is improving, everyday looking more like a swimmer, but swimming is a very technical event and "just trying" harder doesn't mean swimming faster. His progressions in the water will be modest and consistent, and that means we know he will have a time deficit to make up, coming out of the water in most of the key races.

The nice thing, is that if races truly execute fair and consistent draft marshaling, Lionel is more than capable of having some of the most impressive bike and run splits in any of the races he enters. Mt Lemmon was a great gift to Lionel. He loves the mountain, and gains energy from being on it. Some people have a favourite trail they run on, some a great lake they love to swim or paddle. For Lionel Mt Lemmon is an inspiring few hours. For those who have never had the luxury of being on the mountain, you need to make a road-trip to Tucson. It is a truly amazing road, where every few miles the images, climate and visuals change.

I think any athlete that raises positive, conversations about Triathlon is a great addition to the endurance family. Lionel is just a baby in race years, who will gain a lot of wisdom in the next few years. While I am sure we collectively won't do everything proper this year, the most important thing is he is loving the training and new life, inspiring many people around him, and adding to the interest in the sport. None of those are a bad thing.

I don't even really care what the w/kg is. All that matters is that he is a man that can run, run very fast, and he rode up Mt Lemmon in 1:34. That is super legit. Legit enough for me to think there is no way I would bet on anyone else to win Kona.

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My experience swimming with average Joes to World record holders (that should be singular, only ever trained with one) is that there is universality in "swimming harder" is the only thing that works and that less swimming more focus almost never works. I am reminded what I heard at UT swimming camp in 1988, in the debate between quality and quantity the obvious choice is both. I also think that to the that skill acquisition should never be expected if the swimming is performed at the end of the day in a fatigued state.

So I will be interested to see what happens...

"Legit enough for me to think there is no way I would bet on anyone else to win Kona. "

How does he handle the heat?

Both Lionel and Barrie will be joining me tomorrow (Tuesday) night for a presentation and Q & A at TriSports. If you are not lucky enough to be in the Tucson area, and have a question you would like us to ask Lionel, just lmk here. We'll report back after. If you are in the Tucson area, visit https://www.facebook.com/events/395629417283276 for more info, and come & join us. BTW, spent a good amount of time with Lionel last year ... really good guy, humble but very confident, and off the charts focused. Nice to have Barrie in his corner, too ... big-time.

That would be my one unproven concern.

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Time will tell, then.

As excited as I am about Lionel's 2015 race season, by no stretch do we believe he is anyway a favouite in any of the major races. In my mind, you have to do the work (he is clearly doing that). You have to have the willpower (he has that in spades). You have to be talented enough (he is). You have to get lucky (we don't find out that until the race is over). Lastly, you have to actually execute the plan and have an A, B and C option in case of not being lucky. Until Lionel wins a big race, against the best guys, he is merely a great kid with some big potential. Over 30+ years, we have all seen incredible athletes who didn't execute and win.

Lionel and I both know that never in history has there been more world-class swim-bike-runners in the men's field. As excited as numerous PRO-SANDERS people are (and we appreciate their support) until Lionel actually executes his poential and wins, he is another of 8-10 great men who want to hold the title of greatest Long Distance Triathlete on the Planet. With a little "luck", 2015 has the makngs of one of the greatest years ever for Long Distance Racing.

It seems like you both have a great outlook. Good luck for the coming year!

Heres a great blog for a guy who got on a bike 4 years ago and is now winning in Europe last week at pro continental race in Portugal and 5th at world tour - tour of Algrave queen stage 2 weeks ago.

https://rustywoods.wordpress.com

For others on thread suggesting Sanders go bike racing.....read Mikes blog above. A hilarious depiction of what a trule shit show bike racing is. Concussions, food poisoning, cash payments to dopers, crashes....all for $5/hr (or less depending on napkin math!!) I love bike racing but seriously, what dysfunction. Yet Mike is getting there in very short order

Lionel is doing what he loves. Don't we all wish we could?

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@rhyspencer

I'm not a coach but an unfit mostly retired duathlete. I just ask myself why in winter training would anybody be worried about chasing times up a hill?

Motivation?

he a professional athletes....it s a daily occurance to shot for the moon, it s normal to mesure everything, track.

he is doing some very solid work.....the climb is just part of the training program.... not a focus in itself.

and he isnt worrie about chaing time up that hill.....he is in his happy place when he ride there...... that s is training ground where he can suffer and get the work done preparing for the season....

Best of luck Lionel

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Well in order to improve your performance you need to develop the aerobic system as much as possible.

One way to do this is ride your bike.

He rode his bike.

People have really weird ideas about 'winter'

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I just want to thank you for these insights! You and Lionel seem like awesome people, and I'll be rooting as hard as I can as you guys journey through the adventures ahead.

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David Roche
Some Work, All Play podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/...ll-play/id1521532868
Coaching: https://swaprunning.com/

Gold.

Great write up Barrie. Thanks! You forgot the most important part...he is CANADIAN!!!! ;)

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________________
Adrian in Vancouver

BTW, just as an aside KPM and QOM up Mt. Lemmon owned by Canadians!!!!!!

In fact, 2nd overall woman also from Canada

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Cervelo R3 and Cannondale Synapse, Argon18 Electron Track Bike

2nd male is also from the North! Michaels Woods, who was a spectacular runner, turned pro cyclist.

For good measure, Tom Danielson gets to mi 20.5 in 1:10 where Sanders does 1:19. Tom is arguably one of the best, if not the best, climbers in the world. If there was a 30mi climb @ 8%, with no approach to the mtn, Tom could beat everyone in the world on a good day.

Again....the real deal!

PT

Uh, no. Not even close and not even when he was on the juice.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

So Tom D, if we equalize for weight, has about 60 watts on LSanders.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

This.

SInce when is riding hard a bad thing?

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"Base training is bull shit" - desertdude

I suspect that if LS took all the time he's "wasting" swimming and running and just rode his bike, dropped 2-3lbs of upper body mass, he could hit very impressive numbers indeed. You can't fairly compare triathletes to cyclists because because of that.

It's like taking a top cyclist and wondering why he can't run a 2:30 marathon. There's a matter of specificity that can take years to develop.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Some folks think that preseason training is months of long slow distance. Possibly for cyclists since their race involves lots of sprinting, attacking, intervals, etc. A large aerobic base followed by specific intervals and tempo work make sense.

For long course triathletes, their races are longer sustained efforts, so doing a 90 minute ride at maybe 95%, is a solid work in off season. Go out and ride at lot, some of it very hard. Some of it easy for recovery. Have more structure as you get closer to your event and make that work more specific to your race.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I think you forgot to read the part about not having an approach to a climb. If you have any ability to ask any of TD's contemporaries, they will tell you the same thing. Unfortunately......there are no races for the pros that is an exclusive climb. My bet is not more that 5 people on the planet could beat Tom up Haleakala.

Jack.....I think he does apron 335w when he goes 1:10.

On a side note, last year (on 2 occasions) TD did 3x5mi @5.6w/kg, then did 2x Bigalow in both 1:10 and 1:11.....5.8w/kg

Well, #2 on strava behind Sanders for that Lemmon KOM is Cameron Cogburn, who just so happens to have the fastest time up Mt. Washington if you exclude Tyler Hamilton and Tom Danielson's times during their doping heydays. Mt. Washington is very weather dependent, though. As, of course, is Lemmon. Point being, I guess, is the person LS knocked out of KOM has some pretty solid climbing credentials to his name.

Interesting by your math how LS is about 10 minutes off of world class abilities over about 1 hour 30 min, on both the bike and run.

IIRC he is within 10 minutes of Mosop's 30km world record (he did 1:36:XX on the road) Mosop did 1:26 or so on the track, that was a few years ago though. Of course on the bike there is that whole w/kg thing.

Maurice.

First, thank you to Paul Thomas for starting this entertaining thread and providing some background info on LS's Mt Lemmon rides.

Barrie, thanks for your blow by blow account of his Sunday ride up Lemmon...some great insights on how it unfolded! Would love to see the video...any idea when/where it will be shown?

The openness you and Lionel have about sharing his training/racing plans, goals, and expectations is great and I'm sure will help attract more interest and fans.

Keep up the great work and best wishes to you both for a successful year!

Mike

we all respect paul, i think it s pointless to talk about the best climber in the world when that person as been a convicted doper. He isn't a contender, he is a cheater. End of it.....

making comparison between a clean athlete and convicted doper. lets keep ''accomplishement'' in perspective...

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Again, no. His best climbing days were when he was doped....and since then he has been, at best, an above average pro. You can put whatever qualifiers you want on it,but he simply isn't what you claim he is.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

The comparison I am making is not to make TD look like a speed demon or saint. My point is that LS is a badass......pressing his times against one of the best pure climbers.

In terms of TD being one of the best pure climbers on the planet, I am right and you are wrong: simple as that. I am not his agent, coach or anything similar. I know what world class performances are like on Lemmon or just stats. Regardless or his past or present he can ride a bike up a sustained hill better than nearly anyone living.

I guess the rest of us will just have to use actual race results to evaluate his climbing skills.....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Lionel will get one more ride up Mt Lemmon before he leaves to go home at the end of this camp. The ride WILL NOT be a Time Trial, but rather a good hard workout. We live in Oro Valley (25 miles from Mt Lemmon) so he will ride 25 miles over to the mountain, 26+ miles up the mountain doing bigger interval repeats, then work on his weak bike descending skills on the way back down the mountain.

I have appreciated all the much more experienced debate that has occurred around Mt Lemmon. Obviously its not the SUPER BOWL or the Olympics. Simply a wonderful mountain and we have selected an arbitrary spot at the top of the ski hill. We are well aware that the great riders over the years go up to much shorter spots on the mountains for practical reasons (not needing van support, cooler conditions etc). Because Lionel's first ever ride 4 years ago, was to the top of the SKI HILL, its become his own spot to ride to. We have certainly been very educated about the number of great riders who have riden up the mountain to different key locations up the mountain and their amazing times.

Lionel has an engine that is 9.9/10 and a current skill set of 6/10. If the time was up to the top of the mountain and back down to mile zero, he wouldn't be a factor in the discussion. Working on his downhill skills will be a priority of his last ride on the mountain this week. We both have a tremendous respect and admiration for the talents, and work ethic and skills it takes to be a great bike rider. At this point in his career, neither of us would consider Lionel a bike rider. But more accurately, a monster engine, who can inefficiently push huge power outputs for long periods of time, and loves to hurt. WIth some help from the cycling community over the next few years, Lionel hopes to become a more complete rider who's bike handling skills, and descending, equal his ability to ride up the side of a mountain.

Thanks to those who have shown some interest in Lionel and if in a tiny way, he can help make people of all ages and levels get on their bikes and test themselves on their "own mountain" then he has actually done something of value.

As an aside. Tonight Lionel and I were a part of a panel discussion at Trisport Bike Shop in Tucson. About 175 people showed up, and they were more amazed about his positive attitude and great appreciation for having the chance to scratch at the surface of the top long distance triathletes in the world then the cared about his 354 watt, 1hr34 min+ ride up Mt Lemmon. My family back in Ontario Canada are freezing in another blizzard right now, so we feel blessed that we are able to ride in our shorts, outside, anywhere warm.

Keep training and find your own mountain to climb in 2015.

Thomas I was ready to take you as an expert until you said this. Only 5 people on the planet! Come on you know that is nonsense. When someone sets a record on a climb in the off season during training but gets dropped in the Tours and Classics on the a regular basis are they really one of the top 6 climbers in the world!

PS As per the other comments. I've seen looks of athletes leave their best session in training. I'm not saying that all winter work should be slow and steady but stress free/consistent is surely more important than chasing records every day on a climb.

This is a big wankfest for LS this thread. I had never heard of him in Australia. Will be keen to see how he comes through the ranks based on the apparent following he has

That is ok that you do not take me as an expert. You are probably right and my intuition is 100%.......both on Sanders and TD.

What you may not be able to read between the lines is that Danielson does not produce in races as he can on a stand alone effort on a mtn. If you have the capabilities to reach out to Horner, Lance, or whomever, do so and they will tell you the exact same thing. If not, then come out to Tucson, sit at the base of Lemmon til TD comes rolling by. Follow him up the mtn then kindly ask to see his Garmin at the top. Do this, and you will start to think I amy be an expert!

PS All this discussion aside good luck to LS and I hope he has a great season

PPS How to I reply to a thread rather than reply to a post in the thread?

Well, there is Google. He's the wanker that came out of the water 38th at IM 70.3 Worlds and rode and ran his way to 4th matching the bike/run split of Gomez.... ahead of all the Aussies. :)

I think there was some similar awe at how Rinny yet again mowed down the field at Kona like they were all out for a Sat afternoon jog and she was the only one actually racing.

People like to be inspired by amazing performances and have someone to cheer for. Someone young working their way up the ranks. Frodeno is almost equally impressive and seems to have a great personality, but he's already won a gold medal and is towards the end of his career. Slightly less inspiring.

It's inspiring because of his ability to raise the bar. That hasn't happened for a while since maybe the Crowie/Macca era.

I think the Aussie are miffed because one of their bros hasn't won it in 3 years and there's a lot of great athletes, but no clear super studs on the horizon.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

You sound like his ex-wife..."go race like you train, Tom!!"

So how does TD's time up Lemmon compare to Nibali's, Quintana's, Froome's, or Contador's?

Let us know when there is an actual race up Lemmon. In the meantime, it is just training.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I was fortunate to be on the mountain that day. About 18 miles up, Coach Barrie at a checkpoint says "you got a horse behind you." I'm thinking wtf is a horse doing on Lemmon. Then I turn around and see Lionel charging up the mountain. Blew by me like I was standing still.

Ended up riding to the top of Ski Valley and got a chance to talk to Lionel. He was beaming with joy. I had no idea who he was but knew something special had happened. What I saw was genuine happiness. If you've ever had a breakthrough workout or race, you know how awesome it feels. That feeling like anything is possible.

Come on, Matias. We know you. You climb like a helium balloon. How long did you try to hold his wheel?

According to Strava about mile, but it felt like a blink of an eye.

Lionel Sanders Mt Lemmon KOM Strava Playback

Ok, that is friggin' superb. Strava is friggin' superb. Here we are talking about some legendary workout, and we've got full instant replay.

I think I have a new sig.

omg
omg
you can replay road races and see what really happened, lol
http://labs.strava.com/...oGsP+W5tD4wTbg+vh30P

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR-Eozbzf0U

just a simple matter of coding to turn it 3d and make it look just like a go pro video

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

"you can replay road races and see what really happened"

Are Bozzone, Reed and Jensen on Strava, I wonder?

'See how he comes through the ranks ' ??!!!

Hell Son, you missed all that last year!! He's well through and playing waaay up at the very tip with some dudes who have apparently gone to the Olympics? You've heard of them at least down in Australia (I hope) ??:)




.

Completely agree. I'm shaking my head trying to figure out how on Earth "best in the world" and Tom Danielson are even remotely related.

Well, the person presenting this theory seems to think that TD is somehow uniquely talented at going hard for 1 hour if he has not had to go medium for 2 hours before hand.

I think this may be because the person in question hasn't seen wiggo, froome, contador, quintana etc go hard totally fresh.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Ding, ding, ding....as I said, show me these guys' times going up Lemmon and then we can talk about how TD's efforts on Lemmon rank. Until then, you are just looking at an (very) incomplete data set.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

1) why do we feel the need to call him the real deal? If he were the real deal, it would be self-evident.

2) if he were the real deal, why wasn't he pulling down a million bucks at Challenge Dubai? To me, someone who is the real deal would have been at that race.

Eric,

Great questions

1 - I think people go on an on about this because he's still "new" - although up here in Canada, we've been familiar with his exploits for a bit longer. Finishing a close 4th and closing hard, at the 70.3 World Championships last year, with only Olympic Medalists, and World Champions ahead of him, is certainly a stronger statement than topping Strava KOM's!

2- Could be any number of reasons. I know that he had some obligations with Barrie Shepley's Training Camps, and some of his sponsors in Tucson this week and next, so perhaps travelling half way around the world to the Gulf and back, might have been a bit much and possibly disruptive to the training plan. Everyone can't do everything.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

He will re-write the record books this year. I have had the opportunity to meet and chat with Lionel and he is in a class of his own. He races with joy in his heart and a fire in his belly.

haha, us Aussies are a bit sheltered with some of the 'newer' athletes coming through. We hear a lot about those who race Asia-pacific ofcourse. I didnt know who Rapp was until i came on this site. Its not a knock on any of these guys, its just we dont get much exposure to American or Canadian athletes. We get a little of the ITU stuff, sure. But i guess you will find a lot of us have a better understanding of those who have raced here before or those who have raced in Kona and other large events.
As for another poster who mentioned that Aussies dont have a lot of younger generations coming through, they are perhaps right. Van Berkal got 7th at Kona from memory at his first hit out. Tim Reed isnt too shabby. But we dont have the hype which seems to be surrounding someone like Lionel. We have been spoilt having Crowie, Macca, Rinny etc. over the years. I wish Lionel well and hope he has a good career, it will be good to see 'newish' blood hopefully on the international scale

This thread is about Lionel, only using TD as a bench mark. TD can't race like he can train. Simple as that. TJ Tollakson has witnessed TD doing 6.8watt/kg for 60 min in the middle of a 5 hour day. Maybe TD is the best, 2nd, 3rd, 4th best etc......It does not matter. He is a bench mark for a triathlete called Lionel Sanders.

Whether or not if you think Sanders or Danielson are legit, check your head.

PT

PS Mr. Mott......I searched around and read where Ferrari claims the TD produced better numbers than any rider he has ever worked with. Then he followed it up saying "there is no reason why he should have 6 grand tours under his belt by now." This was in 2010. Remember when Barney Rubble could only sing in the shower?!?!?

Again.....Sanders is the real deal!

That's impressive. Only way you could dig deeper is to come up with a quote from the Hog or Juan Pelota.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Nope. That little shit is good, but not that good. I have read 7.0 w/kg for 20 mins but that assumes a weight of 60kg and he looks heavier than that almost all the time (confirmed by some VAM w/kg calcs I ran on his Strava). Lance's best was a fresh 6.8 for 30 mins up Madone, same ballpark for the Sky aliens, no way TD is doubling the duration.

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Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

But that isn't simple at all! It would be extremely odd!


Ferrari is a shithead criminal liar.
So I don't put much stock in what he says.

Perhaps TD can put up 6.8w/kg when he is on the full dose of EPO but not at the dose where he will piss clean on race day. That is about the only plausible explanation I can think of for him climbing faster than a doped up pantani in training but under 6.0 on race day.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

One last time: Danielson is a top climber in pro cycling......complete specialist whom goes REALLY fast up a mountain in 70 min. On that same mountain a really fast triathlete, Lionel Sanders goes 79 minutes.

If the Danielson example does not exemplify what a strong effort Sanders did on Lemmon, I believe Austin has plenty of flights out here. I invite you to be a guest at my house.....I will drive you to the base. If you are a decent cat 3 racers, you will go 1:40-1:50.

PS I know Brakovich probably has a doping record, but he rode 1:13 a month ago.

I could do 78 minutes....just don't wanna make LS feel bad....im nice like that :D

Lionel better hit a home run this year so that he doesn't disappoint his fan. Be nice Bobby.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

It does, I did the math. It means Sanders has 60 watts less power, equalizing for body size.

=)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I have said it before and will say it again, Lionel Sanders is an amazing and humble person. We have seen it time and again when he competes with us. Seeing Barrie's comments about the panel discussion in Tucson caused me to think back to the last time we saw Lionel. If you haven't seen these 15 Q& A's before maybe this will help some realize he is a classy guy who has it all in perspective. https://www.youtube.com/.../MSCTriathlon/videos

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

6.8, huh? In another few years I guess it'll be 7? Then 7.2?

This is simply ludicrous.

1500M, there is a pretty good write up on his blog. Shows his steady improvement from 2 min per hundred when first getting in the pool. My progression has been very similar (albeit longer in years but not total yards) and focusing only on technique and changing things up quite often.

For someone that is as good as he is on the bike and run, it is pretty amazing how bad he is is in the water. But at least it looks like he is moving in the right direction now.

Tiago

Thanks for the reference to his blog which I haven't read before. It sounds like he dropped from 20:36 to 19:50 for 1500 scm in the past 2 months by changing his stroke such that he's now only taking 17-18 spl (25-m pool) rather than 22-25 as he was doing previously. His new coach just told him in early 2015 that he absolutely could not take more than 18 spl any longer, EVER, and apparently Lionel was able to re-groove his stroke over the past 2 months to the tune of dropping 3 sec/100 m in just 2 months or so. That is really pretty impressive IMO, as most people can't just drop from 23.5 to 17.5 spl in 2 months AND then also go faster as a result. Really, the more I think about it, the more almost unbelievable it sounds:) He seems to have "discovered his best stroke" in the past two months and hence, with an engine like he has, he should be able to continue steady improvement.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks for all your insights, coachbarrie!

1 thing I wanted to ask, correct me if I'm wrong. LS did 360W for 2+ hours at 70.3 Worlds last year, then ran a 1:11. This effort up Mt. Lemmon was 348W. People are surprised by his time, but to me, it is nowhere near his potential.

...to the people estimating his current FTP at 385 or 5.1-5.2 w/kg...that may be correct assuming this effort up Lemmon was a max. effort. I dont think it was...if it was, then that clearly shows he is nowhere near race shape. Makes no sense to go to Dubai or pound his chest at some race that takes him away from his Kona goal.

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Duathlete by choice?

Lionel broke 2hrs twice last year for 90km bike in half Ironman races and I honestly don't believe the effort last Sat was nearly a maxium effort. Lionel had already flown in 2 days before (12hr travel day), rode Mt Lemmon on the brand new bike on Friday, did 2 runs (one speed one aerobic), 2 swims all in the 48hrs before riidng the 1hr 34min effort up Mt Lemmon. We will re-do his FTP test soon, but somewhere not too far below 400 watts will be the number in my estimation. Lionel will see improvements in his biking in 2 ways. A) Only in year 2 of really riding a bike, elite bike coaches, believe we will see improvements for another 5-8 more years just simply from evolving from a young athlete, getting stronger. The second and more exciting improvement is going to come from just learning how to really ride a bike from better bike pros/experts riding with him. Quick observation of his bike setup from the ride up Mt Lemmon shows his seat height is likelya bit too high. He's never been in a wind-tunnel. So I am very excited that in spite of some impressive performances, when we have placed zero priority on trying to ride up the mountain fast, he has LOTS of room for improvement from being a better rider and simply more bike miles over the rest of 2015 and beyond.

Andy Potts is an amazing swimmer naturally (obviously he has done a lot of work, but he is also a real natural at it). Javier Gomez is an awesome runner off the bike (and many have likely tried to do the same workouts Javier does but can't run as fast as he can off the bike). Lionel seems to have a natural physiology and muscularity and mentality to ride a bike fast (without having focused on being a great biker).

Lastly, the most exciting thing for me, is that only a handful of amazing riders can also run FAST. With three runs splits last year at 69 minutes for the 21km run split, Lionel has the capacity to run fast even after biking very fast. In Florida he ran through the first 21km of the Ironman run in 1hr 17 minutes. After being up by 18 minutes over 2nd place at 21km of the marathon run, he was able to run very comfortably the last 21km and was in great shape the day after the race. Lionel and I believe that in 2015, your going to have to break 2hr 40minutes off the bike to win the biggest races (and we are focusing on having to run that fast with the quality of the top men now in the sport).

As I have said before. 2015 might become one of the most exciting long distance years EVER in the sport. With the amazing guys from last year, and the addition of incredible new faces like Brent McMahon, Jeff Symonds and a few other newbies, we expect to see the most men under 8hrs 20min in Kona history. Time to buy my Kona ticket and get a first hand view of the big-show.

what barrie dosnt mention is that by the 14 miles marker.....on mt lemmon, he is riding at 7000 feet of altitude. The change in o2 already bring down the watts significantly. So when he is pushing 350 watts at 700.... So mt lemmon as almost 1/3 or of the ride between 7000-9000feet. That will be a important factor to take into consideration when looking at a powerfile.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

Not yet in the wind tunnel...scary thought.

I know eyeballing it is very inaccurate but would you think that he has a fair amount of aero gains or is he already quite aero?

True that..
I forgot about the altitude effect on power. To me, I'd need an additional set of lungs and legs at that wattage anyway!!

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Duathlete by choice?

as is typical, many of you guys are taking yourselves and the thread sideways rather than paying any attention to the point of the thread. when i contemplate who has probably spent more time in the saddle alongside BOTH world class or national class cyclists AND the world and national class triathletes, PT (the OP of this thread) immediately comes to mind.

rather than asking him questions that might be salient (okay, PT, how much stronger is LS than TJ Tollakson, Maik Twelsiek, et al, and in what kinds of terrain, and over what distances?) you'd rather debate whether TD is the 4th, or 13th, or 41st best climber in the world.

i believe last year PT spent fairly significant time in the saddle alongside the reigning ironman world champ, who is himself a monster on the bike. so i think an interesting question might be how PT thinks LS ranks, as a raw engine while on the bike, compared to SK. but that's just me.

carry on...

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

LOL. Are you attempting to herd cats with this post?

fool's errand, i know.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

True, I'm more interested in cycling than triathlon. Apologies for the derailment. I simply find absurd claims about cycling to be...intriguing.

Good re-organization Dan. Much appreciated.

A few things for us to still learn about.

How much harder is the lower oxygen on your body past mile 14 (where many of the bike pros turn around). I know that having riden to the top, the last few miles I feel pretty light headed and the final few miles are the steepest.

I know that the football player that can run the fastest 40 yards, isn't alwasy the best football player, and the basketball player that has the best vertical doesn't always become the MVP in the NBA. So just because Lionel has some big power-numbers on the bike right now (without wind-tunnel testing, without any offiicial bike coaching) doesn't mean he will be the best Ironman Biker (or even a "C" pro cyclist). But he is hungry, loves pain, wants to learn and I am sure will keep getting better. Lionel personally admires Seb K. the current Kona Ironman Champion for his incredible racing style of laying it all on the line all day long. We hope to be able to emulate that kind of gutsy racing this year and in the future. I think the more GO FOR THE HOME RUN FENCE guys in long distance racing there are, the more exciting and unpredictable the bigget Ironman and 70.3 races will become.

Paul Thomas and a number of others will have had the chance to ride with both top Ironman competitors and pro bikers and I am sure will see and know the numerous, sublte differences between the two groups (and within the 2 groups). Paul was injured on the few days he saw Lionel so far in Tucson, but he would immediately know that he's green on the bike skills, a bit noisy when it comes to moving his body around the bike, and likely not setup optimally on the bike. All things we intend to address over the coming months (and in some case years when it comes to becomign a better biker). Knowing how many years its taken the top Ironman atheltes to become great (or very good) bikers (both in terms of fitness and skill), Lionel is realistic about how much he still has to learn and improve upon.

I am personally curious however to hear from the limited number of people who have had the luxury of riding with top Ironman Triatheltes (either now or in the past) and also with some pro cyclists to hear who are some of their all-time favourite riders. How does Seb K. rank up against Mike Pigg or Jurgen Zack or Norman S. Where does Peter Reid fit into the picture from the past . I am excited to know how does young, green (still a lot to learn) Lionel Sanders fit into the discussion of all of those great athletes in terms of the bike. Lionel spoke to Dave Scott last year when Dave came to Tucson and Lionel figured that Dave's power numbers had to have been huge, to have riden as fast as he did in the 80s, on lessor bikes, with clothing that was non-aero, non-aero helmet, etc. One can guestimate, what kind of actual power was required to move that less effecient bike to those fast times, in the Kona winds 25 years ago. AND then still run 2hrs 40 minute marathons off the bike. Some truly amazing athletes from the past, have likely not gotten all the appreciation they deseve for the performances of the past.

Thanks Dan for keeping us on track. I am keen to hear from anyone who has had past personal riding experience with some of the current or past triathlon pros.


PS: I am in Abu Dhabi for today's (its Sat here), ITU SPRINT Triathlon. We are missing Allistair Brownlee who twisted an ankle a few days ago, but otherwise most of the top names are here. I was not obviously in Tucson yesterday for Lionel's final ride up Mt Lemmon, but the 70km/hr winds made it too dangerous to go past mile 5. I understand he was riding about 440 watts until he wisely turned around. The importance of weather is not ignored on any mountain and that was one of the things that made last Sunday's ride so special. With all kinds of daily condition changes, we needed to get lucky (and we did).

Get out on (or IN ON) your bike sometime this weekend. Spring hopefully is not too far away from many of you.

Hey Barrie:

I'm curious once Kona is won (we hope!) & as a fan of sport we & Lionel watch Rio come & go & then Canada really takes advantage of our new world class velodrome from 2015 onward......what Lionel can do on the track!!!

That said, believe it or not; there's more $$$ in triathlon-:)

All that aside as you know I started this nonsense in late 90s. I remember a long run with Lisa Bentley talking about Cam Brown & IMNZ. Today Cam won #11! She & he seriously top class IM athletes and runners. How far the sport has evolved now! Lionel can emulate athletes like those two he will do just fine!

And as far as cyclists....Axel schooled me at his Gran Fondo. Years after retirement it is crystal clear apparent the level of Europe cycling. Yes I'm a hack but it was still impressive to see. Also had two of his team engines there as world class under 23 riders & their level was miles ahead. It's different sport. Can't compare tri riders vs pure cyclists. When the under 23s went up the road I was taken back not by the power, or ease, but by the fluidity of the pedal stroke and minimal body movement. They just went bye. I'm dying at 400 watts along the flats & they barely flinched riding away. Total class. Duechene was <23 canadian champ on his team 2013.

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@rhyspencer

"How does Seb K. rank up against Mike Pigg or Jurgen Zack or Norman S. Where does Peter Reid fit into the picture from the past"

of all the uberbikers in triathlon, i think the guy who might've had the loudest pure power numbers was spencer smith. he was a big guy, and rode up palomar in something like 56 or 57 minutes. PT was there on that day (as was i). and he did it with a lot of ease. because he was a pretty big guy, there must've been a lot of power in that engine.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I had a couple of Cokes with Spencer Smith once, after an oly dist race at St. Augustine, Fla, back in Oct 1994. He of course won the race by like 6 minutes and i came in about 22 min behind him. The race organizers had no Coke or Mtn Dew in the post race re-fueling area, and Spencer just happened to be asking the RD about where he could get a Coke right after i finished. It just happened that i had been to that race before, and knew that there was a bar right around the corner where we could get some cold Coke, so i spoke up and took him over there, and i got to talk to him one on one for 30 min or so. One of my most cool race experiences:)

As triathletes go, he was among the most muscular/powerful ever to race at the highest level; IIRC, he was about 5'10" and about 170-ish.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

f all the uberbikers in triathlon, i think the guy who might've had the loudest pure power numbers was spencer smith. he was a big guy, and rode up palomar in something like 56 or 57 minutes. PT was there on that day (as was i). and he did it with a lot of ease. because he was a pretty big guy, there must've been a lot of power in that engine. //

I was the timer that day when they Jurgen and Spencer raced for the $1k winner take all training challenge, and i recalled Spencer doing a high 58, while Jurgen was a minute behind. So i dug into your own archives, where you wrote the story, and it appears i have just a few more memory brain cells left than you do. I agree though, I don't ever recall hearing about any pro breaking so many bikes. He could just put so much torque to the cranks without shifting, that the poor bikes never stood a chance.


http://www.slowtwitch.com/mainheadings/features/palomar.html

and who brought up TD?

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Didn't Spencer Smith try to become a pro road racer?

And if TD was on road bike versus TT for LS, it's even more than that.

Wiggo put 2 minutes into TD on Mt. Diablo last year and Dennis :20 more. Maybe TD had a tummy ache because those "TT guys" went pretty well against a pure climber.

Discussing whether LS is close to the best cyclists in the world (doped or not) is akin to wondering how close Ali Brownlee would be racing Bekele head to head in a 10km, or whether Andy Potts can swim with Sun Yang. It's not even close, so I'm not sure what this discussion is all about and why we're always wondering if a top triathlete, training for triathlon, can compete against top single sport athletes. Would anyone see Ashton Eaton anywhere near El Gerrouj in a 1500m?

Brownlee would be a lot closer really. At least to Bekele now.

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Agreed, not sure what compelled me to participate in this conversation.

He did for a couple years. He also was accused of doping in triathlon, from a positive drug test, however, he was able to beat the charges.

Where they stack up:

While I did not get a chance to do a hard session with Sanders, I still am very aware of his degree of badassness on the bike via his Lemmon climb by using his time and w/kg. As we know there are so many different specialties within cycling, even the listed triathletes below have varying strengths depending upon what kind of effort is boing served up. Based upon going straight uphill on a TT bike, I can't think of many multi-sporters (yes, including duathletes and Kenny Souza) that would be able to match Sanders' jaunt up Lemmon. I have only one question about his performance......how motivated was Lionel on this day. That element is the unknown. Can he do this on any given day or was this a tapered and laser vision focused effort. For instance, in April of 1987, I ran 8:53 for 3200m. All of the stars were lined up and my goal was clear....just to beat Marc Davis. I ran 2:01 for the last 800m......lots left in the tank. 2 weeks later, I ran 9:03 exhausted beyond belief.....If Sanders can do this week in and week out, I don't know of a triathlete in my time in multisport who could do the same. Using Tom Danielson as an example again, he really can climb straight up a mountain in training better than almost everyone in the world (ssshhh Jack Mott!) but can not do it in a race. Can Sanders produce in Kona or is he a TD on Lemmon? Based upon his Florida and 70.3 4th, it appears that his TT up the hill was not a fluke.

Until I ride with the guy (which I will hope to on his next block down here) I don't have real life experience with him. Not because I am afraid of the mtn, but because I want triathlon relevant conditions, I will take him on the same 101mi loop I took Sebastian and Twelsiek last year. It is a very similar course as Kona.....As a matter of fact, there is a segment that nearly mimics going up Hawi. in 2014, the 3 of us did this loop 2 weeks in a row, where we rotated equally until someone splintered. The first week, I ended up with 298w at the end of 4hr ride. The next week was 309w. All of us stayed together the entire ride, except for the 2x we rode up the HAWIesque hill.

Again, I have yet to ride a real ride with Sanders and can't compare. However, I find this is a good opportunity to use my 2 decades of slug festing with the our top IM guys.......Descending order:

All time bone crushers
1. Kienle 2014
2. Stadler 2000
3. Twelsiek 2013/14
4. Zack 2000
5/6. Hoff/Tollakson
7. Spencer Smith 2002
8. Kenny Souza 2005 -past his prime.
9. Macca 2003
10. Monty and Dan

Where will Sanders slot in for the taste test?

I was never a seasoned cyclist until I hit age 40. I never rode with a PM until this time also. My guess is that either Stadler or Kinele has had the best horse power over a hard 4-5hr ride. I missed Spencer during his hay day this may also apply to Zack Attack. Times are irrelevant on Kona's course, or any other due to weather conditions from day to day. If Sanders is not a Tommy D, (while honing in on his swim), I think that Kienle and Frodo will have someone else to worry about to take the top spot.


The only thing that worries me is that Lionel seems to be fixated on records. At the end of the day, a record up Lemmon or over 112mi is meaningless compared to winning the race. Time will tell.

PT

If the top tri guys were super great at just one thing, then they'd be on their national oly team in that one thing, be that the S, B, R, rowing, tennis, or some other sport. Triathletes generally become TRI athletes because they are really good at several diff sports, but not quite super great at any one of the three. This is more or less by definition, in essence:)

Relative to the discussion of AB's 28:32 for 10K on the track, vs the WR of 26:17, he is about 8.6% slower than the WR. Generally, it appears that the very top tri guys are 8-10% slower than their single sport counterparts, when comparing a stand-alone effort to the WR. On the swim, I've read that Gomez and the Brownlee's have gone 15:30 for 1500 scm in masters' swim meets, which is about 9.4% slower than Grant Hackett's WR for 1500 scm, so right in the 8-10% range. The bike is a bit more problematic to compare.

Perhaps Mr. Mott can hazard a similar estimate for the bike:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sanders: FTP tops 5.5-5.6 w/kg, Chris Froome and fellow aliens: FTP 6.5 w/kg. That's 14-16% less.

I would think that long course athletes won't have peak w/kg numbers for triathletes because they tend to weigh a bit more than short coursers. But even in absolute power someone like Sanders is giving up 60-70 watts to someone like Cancellara in FTP, similar discrepancy as w/kg.

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OK, so maybe the % slower/less powerful should be 9-15%. Interesting to try to quantify these things:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Well, Bekele's marathon PR (from last April) is only 11 seconds per mile slower than Brownlee's 10K track PR. So, Bekele would probably only lap Brownlee once now.

Yup. Real deal. Improved swim, still getting faster on the bike. What a beast

Nice article today on Lionel in the USA Today. If you have a chance check it out.

can anyone send a link to this if possible.

http://www.usatoday.com/...mpionships/29523097/

 I tried but online paper is subscription only and requires login

I did the link and it worked with no issues. Great article.

Always interesting to see some of these folks change from one addiction to another. How many of these are still alive, let alone racing, older?

.

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What the hell are you talking about? What does this useless, incoherent post have to do with the thread topic?

Everyone is addicted to something. I am glad to see that he was able to change his addiction to a much more positive one. I had a brother that suffered from the same addiction as Lionel but his addiction controlled him and he died because of it leaving two amazing children behind.

I am a huge Lionel fan being Canadian and how he has changed his life around.