Completely agree. I'm shaking my head trying to figure out how on Earth "best in the world" and Tom Danielson are even remotely related.

Well, the person presenting this theory seems to think that TD is somehow uniquely talented at going hard for 1 hour if he has not had to go medium for 2 hours before hand.

I think this may be because the person in question hasn't seen wiggo, froome, contador, quintana etc go hard totally fresh.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Ding, ding, ding....as I said, show me these guys' times going up Lemmon and then we can talk about how TD's efforts on Lemmon rank. Until then, you are just looking at an (very) incomplete data set.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

1) why do we feel the need to call him the real deal? If he were the real deal, it would be self-evident.

2) if he were the real deal, why wasn't he pulling down a million bucks at Challenge Dubai? To me, someone who is the real deal would have been at that race.

Eric,

Great questions

1 - I think people go on an on about this because he's still "new" - although up here in Canada, we've been familiar with his exploits for a bit longer. Finishing a close 4th and closing hard, at the 70.3 World Championships last year, with only Olympic Medalists, and World Champions ahead of him, is certainly a stronger statement than topping Strava KOM's!

2- Could be any number of reasons. I know that he had some obligations with Barrie Shepley's Training Camps, and some of his sponsors in Tucson this week and next, so perhaps travelling half way around the world to the Gulf and back, might have been a bit much and possibly disruptive to the training plan. Everyone can't do everything.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

He will re-write the record books this year. I have had the opportunity to meet and chat with Lionel and he is in a class of his own. He races with joy in his heart and a fire in his belly.

haha, us Aussies are a bit sheltered with some of the 'newer' athletes coming through. We hear a lot about those who race Asia-pacific ofcourse. I didnt know who Rapp was until i came on this site. Its not a knock on any of these guys, its just we dont get much exposure to American or Canadian athletes. We get a little of the ITU stuff, sure. But i guess you will find a lot of us have a better understanding of those who have raced here before or those who have raced in Kona and other large events.
As for another poster who mentioned that Aussies dont have a lot of younger generations coming through, they are perhaps right. Van Berkal got 7th at Kona from memory at his first hit out. Tim Reed isnt too shabby. But we dont have the hype which seems to be surrounding someone like Lionel. We have been spoilt having Crowie, Macca, Rinny etc. over the years. I wish Lionel well and hope he has a good career, it will be good to see 'newish' blood hopefully on the international scale

This thread is about Lionel, only using TD as a bench mark. TD can't race like he can train. Simple as that. TJ Tollakson has witnessed TD doing 6.8watt/kg for 60 min in the middle of a 5 hour day. Maybe TD is the best, 2nd, 3rd, 4th best etc......It does not matter. He is a bench mark for a triathlete called Lionel Sanders.

Whether or not if you think Sanders or Danielson are legit, check your head.

PT

PS Mr. Mott......I searched around and read where Ferrari claims the TD produced better numbers than any rider he has ever worked with. Then he followed it up saying "there is no reason why he should have 6 grand tours under his belt by now." This was in 2010. Remember when Barney Rubble could only sing in the shower?!?!?

Again.....Sanders is the real deal!

That's impressive. Only way you could dig deeper is to come up with a quote from the Hog or Juan Pelota.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

Nope. That little shit is good, but not that good. I have read 7.0 w/kg for 20 mins but that assumes a weight of 60kg and he looks heavier than that almost all the time (confirmed by some VAM w/kg calcs I ran on his Strava). Lance's best was a fresh 6.8 for 30 mins up Madone, same ballpark for the Sky aliens, no way TD is doubling the duration.

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Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

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But that isn't simple at all! It would be extremely odd!


Ferrari is a shithead criminal liar.
So I don't put much stock in what he says.

Perhaps TD can put up 6.8w/kg when he is on the full dose of EPO but not at the dose where he will piss clean on race day. That is about the only plausible explanation I can think of for him climbing faster than a doped up pantani in training but under 6.0 on race day.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

One last time: Danielson is a top climber in pro cycling......complete specialist whom goes REALLY fast up a mountain in 70 min. On that same mountain a really fast triathlete, Lionel Sanders goes 79 minutes.

If the Danielson example does not exemplify what a strong effort Sanders did on Lemmon, I believe Austin has plenty of flights out here. I invite you to be a guest at my house.....I will drive you to the base. If you are a decent cat 3 racers, you will go 1:40-1:50.

PS I know Brakovich probably has a doping record, but he rode 1:13 a month ago.

I could do 78 minutes....just don't wanna make LS feel bad....im nice like that :D

Lionel better hit a home run this year so that he doesn't disappoint his fan. Be nice Bobby.

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It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev

It does, I did the math. It means Sanders has 60 watts less power, equalizing for body size.

=)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I have said it before and will say it again, Lionel Sanders is an amazing and humble person. We have seen it time and again when he competes with us. Seeing Barrie's comments about the panel discussion in Tucson caused me to think back to the last time we saw Lionel. If you haven't seen these 15 Q& A's before maybe this will help some realize he is a classy guy who has it all in perspective. https://www.youtube.com/.../MSCTriathlon/videos

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John Salt, Founder - MultiSport Canada
Canada's Largest Triathlon Series and Barrelman Niagara Falls
http://www.multisportcanada.com / http://www.niagarafallstriathlon.com
"Discipline Is What You Do When No One Is Watching You"

6.8, huh? In another few years I guess it'll be 7? Then 7.2?

This is simply ludicrous.

1500M, there is a pretty good write up on his blog. Shows his steady improvement from 2 min per hundred when first getting in the pool. My progression has been very similar (albeit longer in years but not total yards) and focusing only on technique and changing things up quite often.

For someone that is as good as he is on the bike and run, it is pretty amazing how bad he is is in the water. But at least it looks like he is moving in the right direction now.

Tiago

Thanks for the reference to his blog which I haven't read before. It sounds like he dropped from 20:36 to 19:50 for 1500 scm in the past 2 months by changing his stroke such that he's now only taking 17-18 spl (25-m pool) rather than 22-25 as he was doing previously. His new coach just told him in early 2015 that he absolutely could not take more than 18 spl any longer, EVER, and apparently Lionel was able to re-groove his stroke over the past 2 months to the tune of dropping 3 sec/100 m in just 2 months or so. That is really pretty impressive IMO, as most people can't just drop from 23.5 to 17.5 spl in 2 months AND then also go faster as a result. Really, the more I think about it, the more almost unbelievable it sounds:) He seems to have "discovered his best stroke" in the past two months and hence, with an engine like he has, he should be able to continue steady improvement.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks for all your insights, coachbarrie!

1 thing I wanted to ask, correct me if I'm wrong. LS did 360W for 2+ hours at 70.3 Worlds last year, then ran a 1:11. This effort up Mt. Lemmon was 348W. People are surprised by his time, but to me, it is nowhere near his potential.

...to the people estimating his current FTP at 385 or 5.1-5.2 w/kg...that may be correct assuming this effort up Lemmon was a max. effort. I dont think it was...if it was, then that clearly shows he is nowhere near race shape. Makes no sense to go to Dubai or pound his chest at some race that takes him away from his Kona goal.

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Duathlete by choice?

Lionel broke 2hrs twice last year for 90km bike in half Ironman races and I honestly don't believe the effort last Sat was nearly a maxium effort. Lionel had already flown in 2 days before (12hr travel day), rode Mt Lemmon on the brand new bike on Friday, did 2 runs (one speed one aerobic), 2 swims all in the 48hrs before riidng the 1hr 34min effort up Mt Lemmon. We will re-do his FTP test soon, but somewhere not too far below 400 watts will be the number in my estimation. Lionel will see improvements in his biking in 2 ways. A) Only in year 2 of really riding a bike, elite bike coaches, believe we will see improvements for another 5-8 more years just simply from evolving from a young athlete, getting stronger. The second and more exciting improvement is going to come from just learning how to really ride a bike from better bike pros/experts riding with him. Quick observation of his bike setup from the ride up Mt Lemmon shows his seat height is likelya bit too high. He's never been in a wind-tunnel. So I am very excited that in spite of some impressive performances, when we have placed zero priority on trying to ride up the mountain fast, he has LOTS of room for improvement from being a better rider and simply more bike miles over the rest of 2015 and beyond.

Andy Potts is an amazing swimmer naturally (obviously he has done a lot of work, but he is also a real natural at it). Javier Gomez is an awesome runner off the bike (and many have likely tried to do the same workouts Javier does but can't run as fast as he can off the bike). Lionel seems to have a natural physiology and muscularity and mentality to ride a bike fast (without having focused on being a great biker).

Lastly, the most exciting thing for me, is that only a handful of amazing riders can also run FAST. With three runs splits last year at 69 minutes for the 21km run split, Lionel has the capacity to run fast even after biking very fast. In Florida he ran through the first 21km of the Ironman run in 1hr 17 minutes. After being up by 18 minutes over 2nd place at 21km of the marathon run, he was able to run very comfortably the last 21km and was in great shape the day after the race. Lionel and I believe that in 2015, your going to have to break 2hr 40minutes off the bike to win the biggest races (and we are focusing on having to run that fast with the quality of the top men now in the sport).

As I have said before. 2015 might become one of the most exciting long distance years EVER in the sport. With the amazing guys from last year, and the addition of incredible new faces like Brent McMahon, Jeff Symonds and a few other newbies, we expect to see the most men under 8hrs 20min in Kona history. Time to buy my Kona ticket and get a first hand view of the big-show.

what barrie dosnt mention is that by the 14 miles marker.....on mt lemmon, he is riding at 7000 feet of altitude. The change in o2 already bring down the watts significantly. So when he is pushing 350 watts at 700.... So mt lemmon as almost 1/3 or of the ride between 7000-9000feet. That will be a important factor to take into consideration when looking at a powerfile.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Not yet in the wind tunnel...scary thought.

I know eyeballing it is very inaccurate but would you think that he has a fair amount of aero gains or is he already quite aero?

True that..
I forgot about the altitude effect on power. To me, I'd need an additional set of lungs and legs at that wattage anyway!!

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Duathlete by choice?