Yes. If you've done Total Immersion, there's also a good chance that you would be classified by SwimSmooth as an Overglider. Overglider plus two beat kick doesn't make you go anywhere, and good chance that you develop a big kick from the knee to kickstart your stroke everytime as it stalls.

If you're a novice /poor swimmer, don't overthink your kick. Most important are body position and pull, and get your kick to the point that it at least doesn't slow you down.

That said, if you are doing a 2beat, at your pace, then chances are that your kick is getting in your way. Not necessarily the kick itself, but Because of poor mechanics at the front of the stroke, causing a chain of events which result in fish tailing and/or a large scissor kick which acts as a brake.

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Put a pull buoy on and see what differences you experience. If you can't propel yourself forward kicking with a kickboard-like me- then a 6 beat kick won't make any difference. Johnny O stated something like, can't kick, then learn to tuck those legs behind the body. Good luck.

Thanks for the video link. I never really understood the 2 beat kick, but I can now see it. I just kick, never thinking about what I am doing. At least their comments is not really good or bad.

I only improved my swim times when I started to do masters swimming 5 days a week for a few years. I sure miss it, and my swim times show it. But since this is a hobby, I am
not losing any sleep over it.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Mmmm
Started swimming seriously 3 years ago
2:15/100m pace
Good cyclist and runner (so good fitness levels)

Sounds like something is seriously wrong. You should be easily faster by now and your kick is not likely the issue. It doesn't contribute much to propulsion for most of us anyway so changing your kick isn't going to improve you significantly. If you haven't had any coaching, this is where I'd start because it's likely your problems are above the waist. After 3 years you probably should be able to throw a band on (no kick) and move better than 2:15 pace.

I started my swim training using a two beat kick...
and, my 100 times are close to yours.

When using the 2bk I tend to fishtail, and not rotate evenly...
marked improvement with the 6bk.

I'm about 10% faster with the 6bk, but expend more energy. I'm trying to become more comfortable... only working on it for a couple weeks, but happy with progress.

You'll always expend significantly more energy with a 6 beat than a 2, so the issue is what is more important, saving energy or speed? My feeling is that it's good to have both in your toolbox, to use as the situation arises. At the start it's often tactically a good idea to sprint the first 100 m or so before dropping into a sustainable pace, need a 6 beat for that.

Really, there is no single correct way to do it, you need to be versatile enough to do either a 2 or 6 or hybrid effectively, and even be able to do a semi decent backstroke.

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Having been exactly where you were, I'll chime in with what I learned from my experience-

- As said above, your 2 beat kick is NOT your speed limiter, not even close. It's far, far more your pulling power and pull mechanics (and actually a lot more power in my opinion, but that doesn't mean you should start going hard all the time - you have to learn to apply MORE power CORRECTLY, which is a stroke mechanics fix first.)

- That said, learning a 2-beat kick is probably more helpful than not for more novice swimmers in my opinion, because it forces you to really examine your arm stroke imbalances if you reallly want to get it right. It's really hard to do a correct 2-beat kick if you have a really imbalanced stroke. When most novices kick, a big portion of that kick is solely devoted to offsetting the imbalances generated by the uneven pull. That's why 2-beat kicks seem so hard for novices - it exposes the front half imbalances by removing the back half fixes to some degree. Of course, the best way to truly fix the front end imbalances along these lines is to practice with NO kick until you can do it readily - pull sets with a tight ankle band (+buoy for novices) will really show you that your stroke that you thought was so balanced, isn't so balanced at all.

Don't overthink your kick. Two beat is very hard to pull off until you have great body position and stroke mechanics on the front half. Some say it's similar to swimming with the band.

I kick with a soft six-beat. It's supposed to be harder but for me it's easier because there's no thought involved and it allows me to rotate more in the hips.

Again. Don't overthink the kick. That's maybe the one thing you don't have to overthink with swimming, for a while at least.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

I wrote this a while back but maybe it can help.

http://badig.com/...6/the-two-beat-kick/

Another thing you might want to try is a pull buoy AND fins. the buoy keeps the body up and helps kill that 'urge' to kick and the fins help show you the proper timing. Try 1 leg at first, until you get the feel and then just the other, then a full 2 beat. After doing that for a while, lose the buoy and fins and see if you can do it without. Good luck.

TJ

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Badig| Strava

Hi there - I'm the OP on this thread, thanks to all of you for your helpful comments.

I'm seeing a few common themes in your replies - one is "the kick is no big deal - if you're swimming 2:15/100m, the issue is your upper body".

So today in the pool, I took the suggestion of a couple of you and swam with an ankle band/pull buoy combination. My pace improved to 1:55/100m and I was *significantly* less tired at the end of the session.

So how do i interpret this? It seems to me that a) I have a buoyancy/alignment problem b) my current 2BK is actually slowing me down.

So what should I do next? I'm inclined to continue with the pull buoy to fine tune the upper body some more. Then move to (or add?) fins and try to incorporate a kick *without* slowing down.

What would you do?

Thanks!

I would interpret that as you having a scissor kick.... or just a really really inefficient six-beat kick... I have heard stories of people literally kicking backwards and said people universally had a running background (tight ankles, kick from knee, etc)

You're probably faster mostly because the pull buoy is keeping your body level. But other possibilities to consider:

a) maybe the kick is coming too much from the knee, increasing your drag and affecting your balance
b) the kick timing is wrong and inhibiting your body rotation.

Video would help, in any case.

Videos per your request.

These were done a few months ago, and I'd like to think I'm better than this now, but I'm guessing the roots of my problem are still there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PgsDi1FZnHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AlcTc2DmCM

That pretty much clears it up.

Your legs are sinking like crazy with your 2-beat kick. The pull buoy fixes this for you, and you thus go faster. This is the biggie why you're faster with the buoy.

Next, your kick is a runners kick, with too much knee flexion, so yes, it probably slows you down a little bit when you're kicking with it. But this is really minor (like 1sec/100 slowdown) compared to the body drag issue, which is a lot more.

(In terms of why you're not swimming sub 1:20s, you will need a ton more power and turnover - it's not just your dragging body position that's holding you back from those speeds, it's the very slow turnover and lack of pull power. But of course, you really want to get the technique as best you can early on so you don't instill bad habits that are hard to erase by doing a lot of yardage with it.)

Learning to swim with an ankle band will likely help you a lot. Start with buoy+band, then lose the buoy.

My kick is only for keeping my body position correct in the water. Other than that, I get nothing from it. But I think it looks like the two beat kick. Maybe a two beat flutter is more like it.

Also look at the catch. After the hand entry, the stroke pushes downward, which contributes to the high chest / low legs. Try to keep the elbows high and push the water backwards.

I would work on your pull big time, doesn't look like you're getting much and finishing too soon (my swimming is weak and have been getting lessons).

My coach has me work on the pull from start to finish (thumb grazing hip before starting stroke over, high elbow). For the life of me I can't remember the names of the drills, one I want to say is the zipper drill and the other may just be the catch drill. Anyways, not sure if you've invested in having private lessons, but it's already made a world of difference to me, certainly worth the $$$ if you want to truly get better. The ROI has been substantial, to me at least.

Big time...that front view is very telling...you need major work on your catch...most strokes your arm is pointing straight down from the shoulder.

Ya, as others have said, you are not grabbing the water very well at all. You should feel a large amount of resistance on your hands and forearms when pulling, whereas your forearms and hands seem to be mainly slipping through the water, rather than really pulling it. You might want to try paddles, pull buoy, and a loose ankle band, i.e. keeping your ankles around 2-3 inches apart, and try to really pull hard with the paddles. Then, after say 4 x 100 with this gear, take off the paddles but keep buoy/band on, and try to pull hard for 4 x 100, then finally do 4 x 100 with no gear at all. Gradually, you should be able to feel what we mean by pulling hard, and then your arms/shoulders will feel quite tired. You absolutely have to pull hard to get any sort of speed in the water.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

But not downward.

Focus needs to be on keeping the elbow near the waterline throughout the stroke. It'll might feel weaker at first until the form is ingrained.

Well right, that kind of goes w/o saying, i.e. we have to push backwards on the water in order to go forward. But right, understand what you're getting at, i.e. that the OP is currently pushing down too much. I was mainly getting at the fact that, when i watched his videos, he just doesn't seem to be really pulling hard, but rather just going through the motions.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I am a horrible swimmer but here are a few tips. Stop holding your breath. You need to blow out the air as soon as you get your face in the water after you breath otherwise you will build up co2. Glide for a second after your hand gets in front of you. It seems like you are doing some kind of windmill stroke and you are not gliding at all. Keep your elbows high on the pull. Press your chest down so your legs come up. It is hard to tell from the video but it looks like your hands are crossing the center of your head. Keep them a few inches further away from the center line. You are also lifting your head way too high when you take a breath. If you look at your video you can see your legs drop even further each time you breath. Try keeping one eye in the water when taking a breath. That will keep your head down.

You are getting some great feedback here. I'm no great swimmer at all, but also noticed the sinky legs and poor catch, pushing the water down etc.

What's interesting is that your video looks like it was taken at a stroke clinic? Did you not get that feedback from those guys? If somebody like me can see it then you'd hope a coach running a swim stroke clinic could tell you the same!!

Hopefully you'll get some excellent advice on how to correct these issues from folks like ericmulk and jasoninhalifax, these are guys worth listening to.

I agree, but you gotta still take this with a realistic grain of salt - even if OP pulled dead straight back with perfect form, his pull power and turnover rate is so slow that he would be at BEST 1:50/100, and that's with perfect body position and a perfect EVF. The biggest issue for his lack of speed is pull power, not pull angle.

Again, this does NOT mean I'm recommending he just ignore the technique and go hog wild on power, sacrificing technique. He should keep a mind on improving that technique while simultaneously doing workouts that improve power (along with technique). But it's very important to be realistic about why he's not fast - the single most dominant factor is lack of fitness/power. Changing pull angles and body position will help, but will not suddenly turn his 2:00/100 into a 1:30/100 swimmer. (Whereas I and many swimmers here could take his very same technique flaws and still easily come in under 1:40/100, if not sub 1:30/100.)

No. Don't glide. ever. if you aren't actively extending forward, you should be pulling. One issue, amongst many, is that the OP has very little extension at the front of the stroke.

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The most power comes from the correct angle. Wrong angle, wrong muscle contraction worked. Sure you'll get stronger but will never reach potential.

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Formerly TriBrad02

Unless your in the 40-44AG. You should glide minimum 2 seconds every arm cycle. =)

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Formerly TriBrad02

so. the ugly truth...

dragging legs are probably at least 20 secs per 100. The big thing I see is a lack of core engagement, lack of extension out front, and the severely dropped elbows. You dont extend your shoulder and have a couple more inches available from your elbow. in essence you want to try to reach as high (far) as you can without pulling your torso out of alignment at the same time, and being careful to pull from directly in front of your shoulder (not crossing over the midline). getting that better reach will move your centre of mass forward , making it easier to keep your legs up.

You also suffer from a real lack of fluidity, so it probably feels like you are working hard, but in reality that's just muscle tension working against yourself.

Also, work on your breathing, I find that I get into a much better rhythm when I breathe to just one side. plus you need air if you swim hard.

There, I think I pretty much covered Sutto's 3 R's. Relaxation / Rhythm / Range.

I will add / reinforce that I don't think you should be thinking about a 2 or 6 or whatever beat kick at all. Work on the front of the stroke, and let your legs do what they want in terms of kick timing. Just get them up near the surface (heels should be breaking the surface, they aren't right now.) and keep your core strong.

Best 2 drills I can recommend for you (off the top of my head) are catch-up drill (make sure to get that reach at the front of the stroke, and try to keep your elbow at the surface of the water until your forearm is near vertical) and 12-kicks per side. (I forget what the name of this one is, but essentially it's kicking on your left side for 12 beats with your left arm forward / right arm at your side, one pull and repeat on your right, etc... focus on maintaining a really long body line when kicking, your ear should be on your shoulder, elbow locked, and your feet should be up bubbling the surface)

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well, yeah, that goes without saying :)

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Serape Kick Drill?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjshDNJX7nk

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Formerly TriBrad02

yup, pretty much that, but switch arms every 12 kicks or so.

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How would a band help his number one problem, dorsifelxion? His flaps are fully down, he is ready for landing.

What do you say Jason, with or without fins? You know my answer ; )

Oh and call him Sutton.

He won't be able to do the drill without fins. I think in this particular case, fins are OK, because the prupose isn't to actually work on kick, but on stuff at the front of the stroke.

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I think we are talking about the same thing only using different wording. When I say glide I don't mean just float in the water. I mean gliding as in extending the arm way out in front of you and not immediately doing this windmill type stroke he was doing. Here are a few examples of that.

Michael Phelps
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax77_hHq9Dc

World record 1500 start about the 6 minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5FlDy3YmDQ

I don't think dorsiflexion of the ankles (I think thats what you're saying) is his #1 problem.

the wording matters. when you use the word "glide" it means "rest" to most people. Especially if you say you want them to "glide for a second". One second is a really long time in a stroke cycle. If you want the person to extend further, then use the word "extend".

I wish people would stop using Yang as a model of perfection. Sure, he's the fastest ever, but it is not realistic for most of us to ever get close to swimming like that. We don't have his size, his strength, or his insane flexibility. I never use Sun Yang as a model for the average swimmer to emulate, especially not a 50-something adult onset swimmer. They can't do that. There's a reason that most distance swimmers don't have a stroke that looks anything like that.

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If you look at just about every person in that race not just him they all have a "glide" or "extend" when reaching out front. To me it looks like they are gliding for a second but video is better than words in describing something so hopefully those videos help the OP understand what I meant.

Then you don't know what to look for. Most triathletes have this same problem, the ones who bother to attack the issue often follow your kind of advice, and then they don't get faster.

looks are deceiving...

The OP's turnover is already too low, combined with lousy distance per stroke, that translates to slow. (no offense meant to the OP, that's just being honest).

encouraging a "glide" will encourage the OP to drop his turnover even more.

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in fairness, while the dorsiflexion in the feet is an issue, it is far from his #1 issue. I'd put it at about #4 or 5.

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Yeah, it should be fixed, but it's not even close to what's holding him back. Even a MOP swimmer like myself can easily swim sub 1:30s/100 while intentionally pulling my toes up in the wrong direction - it costs time, but not THAT much time, whereas you're not going anywhere fast with the lack of power in that pull.

He needs to buy a Vasa Trainer and work on improving his pulling power:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

That's actually true for like every BOMOPer!

Ya, i think you are right:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I'd recommend buying a copy of Swim Speed Secrets by Sheila Taormina for any BOPMOP swimmer. She's also just released her 2015 clinic schedule.

http://swimspeedsecrets.com/

Ya, i started to mention this in my first post on this thread, and Sheila's view that at least 80% of all swimmers' propulsion comes from their pull is what i was exactly alluding to when i said the OP needs to really PULL, not just go through the motions. I see this every single day at the pool with the vast majority of fitness swimmers, who seem to be much more concerned with going through the motions properly than with pulling hard. A lot of folks just have a hard time "getting it" in terms of how to pull themselves through the water. OTOH, I've seen some guys become proficient swimmers in just 2 or 3 months once someone explains to them what they need to be doing, but they are in the minority.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I read that book in its entirety.

It's good, but I surprisingly (I guess unsurprisingly to others around here) have NOT found her EVF to be the salvation of the MOPers wishing to gain swim speed. I posted about my last 4-5 wks of training in which I got a self-video that showed a still dropping elbow, and then I've taken pretty severe measures to fix/improve EVF, in particular, swimming a lot with a Finis Fulcrum, and videoing myself a lot on my Vasa to refine that pull motion.

I've really made a change in the fore portion of my stroke, and now have the right arm contour, but I certainly have not seen the 10-15sec/100 that she suggests would happen if people do the EVF. I still agree with her that it's all about propulsion, but I'm now much more skeptical as to the gains specific to EVF, which I'm finding are much smaller than she claims. (Whereas sheer swim fitness and power are tremendous - with adequate swim fitness/power, you can be a fast AGer even with a dropped elbow, but you'll never be a fast AGer without the engine, even with perfect EVF.)

LH - As I've said before, when you first started and were going 2:15/100 scy, then you might have dropped 15 sec/100 with the EVF, but now since you're down to swimming 1:20-1:25/100 scy, you are way past the point of getting 10-15 sec/100 gains. You have made tremendous improvement already!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hah, true, but I still think Taormina's book claims those gains should be made for people between 1:10-1:30 pace. She points to a male friend of hers who has a picture in the book of a somewhat dropped elbow as a no-no, and I believe he was swimming 1:20/100 pace per her. She thinks he should go low 1s with the evf.

Hmmm, i'd have to look at the book again. I read the whole thing in the bookstore but didn't buy because it mostly just reinforces what i've though all along, i.e. that pulling is the main propulsive element in freestyle, with the kick really just "icing on the cake", so to speak, and actually this "icing" is really only available to those with excellent ankle flex.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sheila's book has some good information. I find it helpful to understand how to achieve a high elbow without trying to just force your elbow there. If you have any significant distortions in your spine it will be difficult to get a good angle with your elbow and apply enough pressure to the water in order to increase your speed significantly. Likewise, if your shoulder is not aligned, you will not gain as much traction on the water. I've spent 15 years coaching people and am a world-record holder in swimming - you can get a video analyzed @ http://www.allisonwagner.com/swim.

Allison, so nice to see a former Olympian contributing on this site. IIRC, you won the silver in the 200 IM in the '96 Games in Atlanta, and won gold in same event at the '94 World Championships. Welcome to Slowtwitch and we look forward to your swimming commentary:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks Eric!

Just to have you think outside the box...! http://www.theraceclub.com/...tip-legs-propulsion/
and
http://www.theraceclub.com/videos/secret-tip-head-position-1of2/

I looked at Sheila T's book again tonight and found the example of her runner friend on pages 123-125. He is swimming at 1:29/100 scy for a 30 min TT, e.g. a 2000 yd swim in 29:40. She notes that he does not have a good EVF and that he has the potential to go 15 sec/100 scy faster with an improved pull, which would put him down at 1:14, plus she says his streamlining and turns could improve his time another 4 sec/100, or 1:10/100 scy. What she does NOT say is how long it will take for him to develop the strength to pull as hard as needed to do a really good EVF. It might take 6 to 12 months or more, and there is no guarantee that he will get to what she thinks is his full potential. So, applying this to your case, it will prob take some more work on the Vasa and in the pool for you to crack 1:20 and get down to say 1:15s lvg on 1:30. But still, you've made great progress so far, from 2:15-2:20 down to 1:20-1:25s!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Good analysis, you're probably right.


I'm def committed to EVF now, and it's improving, albeit slowly. I'm still skeptical about that +15sec/100 for Sheila T's swimmer from EVF - I'll bet if he trained hard enough with EVF to get that much faster, he'd be +13sec/100 even without it. Either way though, it's still faster, so I'm definitely committed to it.

It was actually harder to adapt my Vasa stroke to the EVF than it was in the pool, because gravity tires out the high elbows more on land than water, but it was much easier to self video and refine the motion on the Vasa. I was going to post about it elsewhere, but might as well mention it here - it was a revelation to do self-video work on the vasa. Without that darn water to force you to breath or force you to be buoyant, you can do super-slo-mo reps on the Vasa to really do it right when you begin - so slow it's literally impossible to do such stroke refinement in the pool. And it's wayyyy easier to self-analyze - either use a big mirror or a webcam on a laptop displaying the image on the screen.

If I had 'swimmer creds' and was interesting in making a coaching business, I am absolutely positive that I could make a fair amount of money if I brought triathletes over an did an hour of stroke analysis/refinement on the Vasa for EVF just through referrals as it provides a real-time self-feedback loop on form that you absolutely cannot get in the pool. At the least, it would be a lot higher yield than any of the pricey coaches I've hired in the past - not that they weren't knowledgeable, but it's a huge difference between them telling you something and having to imagine how to change it, vs actually changing it in realtime and seeing the changes implemented in real time.

What is EVF?

But can you not watch your arms underwater when you are pulling, i.e., watch the first half of the pull including the "catch"??? This has always been the way i check on my pull. Don't know if i've mentioned this before, maybe not b/c i've done it for so long that it's just second nature:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

EVF = Early Vertical Forearm, i.e. getting your forearm vertical (relative to the bottom of the pool) early in the pulling motion, with a high elbow, e.g. elbow "close" to the surface of the water. EVF is a relatively new term , e.g. it was coined within the last 10-15 yrs. Swimmers dating all the way back to Johnny Weismuller in the 1920s have used it but it was called something else like just "high elbow". Sheila Taormina's book Swim Speed Secrets has a nice discussion on the history of the concept.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

At least for me, it was completely eye opening to see the response of my arm/elbow/forearm under the real resistance of the Vasa. Anyone can hold a good-looking EVF in the air for a static photograph, not hard at all. But the moment you add even a little bit of resistance, if you haven't practiced it, it gets wacky quick. At least it did for me - I spent 90 minutes straight the first day I did it with the self-video ingraining the correct motion at super slow motion. For me, it absolutely was not as simple as watching my arm in the water - I've been doing that for a few years now, and what you think you're doing might be completely different from what you're actually doing when seen from the most critical angle. (Side view is best for EVF.)

Ya, i see what you're saying and actually i have used a mirror when using the stretch cords, just to ensure i was using proper form.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Ok I'd like to open myself up to some criticism on my stroke and kick if anyone has an opinion. I have studied lots of swim sites, watched some DVD's and watched lots of YouTube videos these last 4 weeks. I have been swimming about 2 weeks now. I am getting one of those Finis Fulcrum as I can see how much my wrist bends. My kick sucks but at least I am not going backwards on the board anymore. Will kicking make me more streamlined or should I concentrate on pressing my chest down more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaAvttda7qI

You mean, you just started swimming 2 weeks ago? From being a non swimmer?

If so, you're doing ok. Kicking more doesn't make you more streamlined, being more streamlined does.

That said, I didn't see very many strokes where you were breathing, an one or 2 where you did breathe, you were over rotating and scissor kicking. #1 priority for you is to work on breathing, you need to learn to breathe in rhythm, without disrupting your stroke.

You need better extension at the shoulder as well, but that'll come.

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Thanks, I pretty much hate swimming. I haven't swam since my 2:14 swim at Ironman Louisville in 2012. I am trying to focus on swimming this year and see if I can get to tolerate it instead of hate it.

Seriously, join a masters squad. Helps the meters / yards go by a lot faster, and the social aspect is very enjoyable. (Our squad does a pub night after practice once a month, brunch after Saturday morning practice, other stuff like that. Keeps it fun)

If masters isn't an option, look up Slowman's "guppy" workouts. Lots of variety, and a good focus on the basics.

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lightheir, Sheila Taormina is coming to town for a clinic. The cost of the clinic is $195 and comes with some variety, in a workshop size of 16, for three hours.

Currently swimming around 2:00 and see no positive difference in speed from EVF and focusing on pull. Most of my gains seem to be while going for the reach, the pull works better. Currently swimming daily 40 - 60 minutes a day.

I was that 6' 90lb weakling in high school who is now a 6' 150 lb weakling. When I tried some of the pull ups at pool side that Sheila demonstrated on a video I was tremendously weak IMO. Also seem to be too lanky to pull off that EVF.

You have made great gains with your pull and Vasa. Is that where you would spend some time and money - pull and EVF - if you were me? Are you still making gains?

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I'm a huge proponent of the Vasa. If your stroke rate is low, you probably are a good candidate for it, as that means you simply lack the muscular endurance to pull hard and/or maintain higher turnover to go faster. That was exactly me pre-Vasa. It really does work for muscular endurance - it actually emphasizes it, as you don't have to worry about anything but the pull on the Vasa, and it seems to target the relevant arm muscles more than paddles - it's higher ROI for muscular endurance than swimming in the water for me, for real.

I'll only add the (obvious) caveat though that nothing's for free. Buying a Vasa won't do anything for you if you don't aim to seriously train on it. I literally did double, and sometimes triple the volume of my typical pool swimming week at the peak of main gains during a swim focus (like 8-9hrs/wk total swimming).

You know you're doing it right when your arms/shoulders feel like mud. Fortnuately, I found that I could do it like a runner, meaning start out with lots of slow lower-intensity volume (none of this all-intervals stuff that elite swimmers are capable of) and gradually add speedwork in only after my arms/shoulders acclimated. Took awhile - like months, actually, but it took me to a whole new level. I watched a lot of movies on the Vasa! (Those same long easy yards would likely bore anyone to death if training solo in a pool, so another plus for the Vasa here!)

Now I'm back to regular HIM training, so swimming is pulled back to 3-4hrs per week for the most part for maintenance while I push the running and/or biking, but the Vasa still plays a key time-saving role for me in maintaining my abilities. I've probably lost 5sec/100 compared to my peak, but overall I'm still a good 12sec/100 faster now on maintenance than pre-Vasa. Maintaining takes a lot less volume than building in swimming it seems.

Also note that pullup ability doesn't correlate particularly well with swim ability. At my peak of swim training, I could do like two pullups, and then that would make my lats sore for like 7 days - I tried it once, and never again! In contrast, when I did some lifting focus a few years ago, I was doing 12,13 pullups regularly no problemo, but swimming nearly 30sec/100 slower than I do now. It's all about power (force over time), not just force. The Vasa will build that power if used properly.

High elbow CATCH and it's a much better term since it emphasizes the most important part - the catch.

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So "high elbow catch" (HEC) instead of "early vertical forearm" (EVF), that does sound much easier to comprehend. You might want to consider a separate thread for this new description:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think I benefited most from her horizontal sculling drills to hint at what a good catch feels like. Compared to my earlier form, I now feel like I have an immediate purse of the water which has strong resistance. In fact, now when I sprint I have even lower SWOLF scores than during easier sets. I likely have other form issues, but I went from 1:35/100 SCY to 1:21/100 SCY max effort within 3 weeks. I must be lacking fitness or form to be able to hold that pace for longer sets, but I can definitely build the force early in the catch until fatigue sets in.

I will bet you have a terrible body position and stiff ankles. That would negate your efforts in improving your pull and catch.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

It also takes time to develop. In most people it isn't an instant improvement, it's a different movement pattern that needs reps to build the strength to execute properly, with sufficient power.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Awesome, 15 sec off of a 100 scy in 3 weeks is great!!! I had a similar experience when i first started swimming on a YMCA team at age 13, i.e. big gains in the first few months but then they become much harder:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."