LH - As I've said before, when you first started and were going 2:15/100 scy, then you might have dropped 15 sec/100 with the EVF, but now since you're down to swimming 1:20-1:25/100 scy, you are way past the point of getting 10-15 sec/100 gains. You have made tremendous improvement already!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Hah, true, but I still think Taormina's book claims those gains should be made for people between 1:10-1:30 pace. She points to a male friend of hers who has a picture in the book of a somewhat dropped elbow as a no-no, and I believe he was swimming 1:20/100 pace per her. She thinks he should go low 1s with the evf.

Hmmm, i'd have to look at the book again. I read the whole thing in the bookstore but didn't buy because it mostly just reinforces what i've though all along, i.e. that pulling is the main propulsive element in freestyle, with the kick really just "icing on the cake", so to speak, and actually this "icing" is really only available to those with excellent ankle flex.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Sheila's book has some good information. I find it helpful to understand how to achieve a high elbow without trying to just force your elbow there. If you have any significant distortions in your spine it will be difficult to get a good angle with your elbow and apply enough pressure to the water in order to increase your speed significantly. Likewise, if your shoulder is not aligned, you will not gain as much traction on the water. I've spent 15 years coaching people and am a world-record holder in swimming - you can get a video analyzed @ http://www.allisonwagner.com/swim.

Allison, so nice to see a former Olympian contributing on this site. IIRC, you won the silver in the 200 IM in the '96 Games in Atlanta, and won gold in same event at the '94 World Championships. Welcome to Slowtwitch and we look forward to your swimming commentary:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Thanks Eric!

Just to have you think outside the box...! http://www.theraceclub.com/...tip-legs-propulsion/
and
http://www.theraceclub.com/videos/secret-tip-head-position-1of2/

I looked at Sheila T's book again tonight and found the example of her runner friend on pages 123-125. He is swimming at 1:29/100 scy for a 30 min TT, e.g. a 2000 yd swim in 29:40. She notes that he does not have a good EVF and that he has the potential to go 15 sec/100 scy faster with an improved pull, which would put him down at 1:14, plus she says his streamlining and turns could improve his time another 4 sec/100, or 1:10/100 scy. What she does NOT say is how long it will take for him to develop the strength to pull as hard as needed to do a really good EVF. It might take 6 to 12 months or more, and there is no guarantee that he will get to what she thinks is his full potential. So, applying this to your case, it will prob take some more work on the Vasa and in the pool for you to crack 1:20 and get down to say 1:15s lvg on 1:30. But still, you've made great progress so far, from 2:15-2:20 down to 1:20-1:25s!!!

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Good analysis, you're probably right.


I'm def committed to EVF now, and it's improving, albeit slowly. I'm still skeptical about that +15sec/100 for Sheila T's swimmer from EVF - I'll bet if he trained hard enough with EVF to get that much faster, he'd be +13sec/100 even without it. Either way though, it's still faster, so I'm definitely committed to it.

It was actually harder to adapt my Vasa stroke to the EVF than it was in the pool, because gravity tires out the high elbows more on land than water, but it was much easier to self video and refine the motion on the Vasa. I was going to post about it elsewhere, but might as well mention it here - it was a revelation to do self-video work on the vasa. Without that darn water to force you to breath or force you to be buoyant, you can do super-slo-mo reps on the Vasa to really do it right when you begin - so slow it's literally impossible to do such stroke refinement in the pool. And it's wayyyy easier to self-analyze - either use a big mirror or a webcam on a laptop displaying the image on the screen.

If I had 'swimmer creds' and was interesting in making a coaching business, I am absolutely positive that I could make a fair amount of money if I brought triathletes over an did an hour of stroke analysis/refinement on the Vasa for EVF just through referrals as it provides a real-time self-feedback loop on form that you absolutely cannot get in the pool. At the least, it would be a lot higher yield than any of the pricey coaches I've hired in the past - not that they weren't knowledgeable, but it's a huge difference between them telling you something and having to imagine how to change it, vs actually changing it in realtime and seeing the changes implemented in real time.

What is EVF?

But can you not watch your arms underwater when you are pulling, i.e., watch the first half of the pull including the "catch"??? This has always been the way i check on my pull. Don't know if i've mentioned this before, maybe not b/c i've done it for so long that it's just second nature:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

EVF = Early Vertical Forearm, i.e. getting your forearm vertical (relative to the bottom of the pool) early in the pulling motion, with a high elbow, e.g. elbow "close" to the surface of the water. EVF is a relatively new term , e.g. it was coined within the last 10-15 yrs. Swimmers dating all the way back to Johnny Weismuller in the 1920s have used it but it was called something else like just "high elbow". Sheila Taormina's book Swim Speed Secrets has a nice discussion on the history of the concept.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

At least for me, it was completely eye opening to see the response of my arm/elbow/forearm under the real resistance of the Vasa. Anyone can hold a good-looking EVF in the air for a static photograph, not hard at all. But the moment you add even a little bit of resistance, if you haven't practiced it, it gets wacky quick. At least it did for me - I spent 90 minutes straight the first day I did it with the self-video ingraining the correct motion at super slow motion. For me, it absolutely was not as simple as watching my arm in the water - I've been doing that for a few years now, and what you think you're doing might be completely different from what you're actually doing when seen from the most critical angle. (Side view is best for EVF.)

Ya, i see what you're saying and actually i have used a mirror when using the stretch cords, just to ensure i was using proper form.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Ok I'd like to open myself up to some criticism on my stroke and kick if anyone has an opinion. I have studied lots of swim sites, watched some DVD's and watched lots of YouTube videos these last 4 weeks. I have been swimming about 2 weeks now. I am getting one of those Finis Fulcrum as I can see how much my wrist bends. My kick sucks but at least I am not going backwards on the board anymore. Will kicking make me more streamlined or should I concentrate on pressing my chest down more?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaAvttda7qI

You mean, you just started swimming 2 weeks ago? From being a non swimmer?

If so, you're doing ok. Kicking more doesn't make you more streamlined, being more streamlined does.

That said, I didn't see very many strokes where you were breathing, an one or 2 where you did breathe, you were over rotating and scissor kicking. #1 priority for you is to work on breathing, you need to learn to breathe in rhythm, without disrupting your stroke.

You need better extension at the shoulder as well, but that'll come.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Thanks, I pretty much hate swimming. I haven't swam since my 2:14 swim at Ironman Louisville in 2012. I am trying to focus on swimming this year and see if I can get to tolerate it instead of hate it.

Seriously, join a masters squad. Helps the meters / yards go by a lot faster, and the social aspect is very enjoyable. (Our squad does a pub night after practice once a month, brunch after Saturday morning practice, other stuff like that. Keeps it fun)

If masters isn't an option, look up Slowman's "guppy" workouts. Lots of variety, and a good focus on the basics.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

lightheir, Sheila Taormina is coming to town for a clinic. The cost of the clinic is $195 and comes with some variety, in a workshop size of 16, for three hours.

Currently swimming around 2:00 and see no positive difference in speed from EVF and focusing on pull. Most of my gains seem to be while going for the reach, the pull works better. Currently swimming daily 40 - 60 minutes a day.

I was that 6' 90lb weakling in high school who is now a 6' 150 lb weakling. When I tried some of the pull ups at pool side that Sheila demonstrated on a video I was tremendously weak IMO. Also seem to be too lanky to pull off that EVF.

You have made great gains with your pull and Vasa. Is that where you would spend some time and money - pull and EVF - if you were me? Are you still making gains?

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

I'm a huge proponent of the Vasa. If your stroke rate is low, you probably are a good candidate for it, as that means you simply lack the muscular endurance to pull hard and/or maintain higher turnover to go faster. That was exactly me pre-Vasa. It really does work for muscular endurance - it actually emphasizes it, as you don't have to worry about anything but the pull on the Vasa, and it seems to target the relevant arm muscles more than paddles - it's higher ROI for muscular endurance than swimming in the water for me, for real.

I'll only add the (obvious) caveat though that nothing's for free. Buying a Vasa won't do anything for you if you don't aim to seriously train on it. I literally did double, and sometimes triple the volume of my typical pool swimming week at the peak of main gains during a swim focus (like 8-9hrs/wk total swimming).

You know you're doing it right when your arms/shoulders feel like mud. Fortnuately, I found that I could do it like a runner, meaning start out with lots of slow lower-intensity volume (none of this all-intervals stuff that elite swimmers are capable of) and gradually add speedwork in only after my arms/shoulders acclimated. Took awhile - like months, actually, but it took me to a whole new level. I watched a lot of movies on the Vasa! (Those same long easy yards would likely bore anyone to death if training solo in a pool, so another plus for the Vasa here!)

Now I'm back to regular HIM training, so swimming is pulled back to 3-4hrs per week for the most part for maintenance while I push the running and/or biking, but the Vasa still plays a key time-saving role for me in maintaining my abilities. I've probably lost 5sec/100 compared to my peak, but overall I'm still a good 12sec/100 faster now on maintenance than pre-Vasa. Maintaining takes a lot less volume than building in swimming it seems.

Also note that pullup ability doesn't correlate particularly well with swim ability. At my peak of swim training, I could do like two pullups, and then that would make my lats sore for like 7 days - I tried it once, and never again! In contrast, when I did some lifting focus a few years ago, I was doing 12,13 pullups regularly no problemo, but swimming nearly 30sec/100 slower than I do now. It's all about power (force over time), not just force. The Vasa will build that power if used properly.

High elbow CATCH and it's a much better term since it emphasizes the most important part - the catch.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

So "high elbow catch" (HEC) instead of "early vertical forearm" (EVF), that does sound much easier to comprehend. You might want to consider a separate thread for this new description:)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I think I benefited most from her horizontal sculling drills to hint at what a good catch feels like. Compared to my earlier form, I now feel like I have an immediate purse of the water which has strong resistance. In fact, now when I sprint I have even lower SWOLF scores than during easier sets. I likely have other form issues, but I went from 1:35/100 SCY to 1:21/100 SCY max effort within 3 weeks. I must be lacking fitness or form to be able to hold that pace for longer sets, but I can definitely build the force early in the catch until fatigue sets in.

I will bet you have a terrible body position and stiff ankles. That would negate your efforts in improving your pull and catch.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

It also takes time to develop. In most people it isn't an instant improvement, it's a different movement pattern that needs reps to build the strength to execute properly, with sufficient power.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly