I wonder how long it takes for someone to complain that this is a "spoiler"...

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Blog: http://www.coopstriblog.wordpress.com
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Awesome.

Why can these races use a pacer but not in other events like triathlon?

just because

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

The question now comes up: is this a 'real' time, or is it a pharma-enhanced time?

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Sub 2 isn't happening any time soon:

http://m.runnersworld.com/...pen-soon?page=single

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IG: idking90

 




If you have pacers is it still an individual event? Isn't like having a team? When was the last Marathon WR set without pacers? A true individual effort.

I agree...but those same folks would have have said that knocking 26 seconds off the current WR wasn't in the cards either...

Concludes Tucker, "Bottom line is that talking about a sub-2 hour performance after seeing a 2:03:38 improve to a 2:03:23 is just not feasible. The next barrier is 2:03, and I'm sure will go within five years. Then we can begin to work towards 2:02, which will take another ten years, perhaps."


by this line of reasoning the records should be getting broken by less not more...and, it also supposes that the half record is not at all soft (obviously, a very relative term to mortals like us)...


His piece was written a year ago...so, we are 4 years ahead of schedule to a sub 2:02 on his calendar...(I know he said "within"...but you know he didn't mean next year)

His average marathon time is 2:04:27, meaning that not only does he hold the fastest ever, but the fastest mean time ever as well:
2:04:16
2:06:50
2:03:45
2:02:57

Awesome. Thought the Berlin marathon was today.

2:02:xx I guess that's a new milestone. Congratulations to Kimetto but I will admit I've never heard of him.

Marathon has never been an individual effort.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

No they would not have. Within 5 years. Not, at least 5 years =)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Definitely didn't mean for it to be a spoiler - actually thought about that on my long run this morning, though.

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I disagree with the premise that pacers somehow propel an individual to a faster time, like drafting vs time trialing in cycling. The pacers are there as a benefit to the promoters, to ensure a fast race for time rather than a tactical race for place. When a racer agrees to race in a race with pacers, that racer is effectively agreeing to a non-tactical race against the clock. A cycling TT rather than a cycling road race. There will be no ditzing around tactically. Any benefit provided by the pacer is negligible; drafting effect at 13mph non-existent, the only benefit would be mental in that you know you can check out and just follow the pacer and know a proper pace is being set.

Would a solo marathon effort on the track be considered an individual effort? I presume so, although that individual could pace precisely with splits every 400m or more regularly, eliminating the role of the pacer.

I think we need to do some math on the drafting, I am curious.

But yes the main benefit is setting a steady fast pace. It should be noted that pacers can, and sometimes do, win the race. They are fully legit competitors in the race.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Why can these races use a pacer but not in other events like triathlon?//

Well they have been using pacers for about 15+ years now in triathlon, only they are called domestics. And since time means nothing in triathlon because no two courses are the same distance, the pacing is used to win the race, not always to get the fastest time. Of course in triathlon the pacers are only used in the swim and bike, runners are left to their own by that time in the race..

power to overcome drag @ 12.7,mph is 53 watts assuming a runner has a cda of .5

32 watts if cda is .3


I don't know at how to guess how much a person running in front of you reduces the drag, but certainly significant power is on the table.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

not much help for drafting on a course like berlin marathon. It is more a psychological effect, the need for humans to compete , the visual chase...

You really can't avoid that question given what we have seen with doping in Kenya.

There's certainly some variability, and the 15-second drop was a rather small one. This one is more normal-ish, but it's rare that anybody breaks it back to back years...but it's not reasonable to assume we're going to continue to see the record drop by 20-30 seconds year after year. Even if we did, you would still be looking at 7+ years.

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IG: idking90

it is. shocking how little decency and consideration there is in this place.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh2dwJ80Edo

For the entire run.

Thank you! Going to watch but starting at the halfway point.

This paper might interest you: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...org/content/48/4/702

They say that wind resistance accounts for 2% of energy cost in marathon running, but for 5 m/s speeds, so it'll be somewhere between 2% and 4% - not very much. This RW article paraphrases the paper.

not much help for drafting on a course like berlin marathon. It is more a psychological effect, the need for humans to compete , the visual chase...//

Well since WR's are usually only broken by a small amount, i would say that a couple % advantage was plenty to have been the difference. Of course the pacing effect is huge too, but virtually every race will have that for the majority of the race, at least until the final surges come in and break the peleton. There is a certain amount of mental energy saved when you just get to veg out and follow someones back, probably translates into physical exertion too..

Yes, 2-4% is huge when you're already in the top 1%.

I'm totally drafting the hell out of the biggest guy I can find at my next race. I just need to find a big guy who can run fast, maybe I should get a donut on a stick.

I just downloaded his finisher's certificate as if it were my own. I hope it doesn't diminish his accomplishment.

Looks like a nice 33 sec negative split 2nd half. Wish I could do that in a marathon!

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Whether it is huge or not, does it matter that much now since all the recent WR have been set with pacers (and at Berlin)?

Fred.

It ain't 4%, I can promise you that. I've raced on the track at faster than the marathon WR speeds for 1500-5000m, in packs in championship races and solo in small meets, and I can assure you that there is no 4% difference. 4% is 12 seconds per mile at that speed. If the drafting effect were that substantial, you would see serious declines in speed as the field whittles down in the second half of races and the winners are forced to forgo their 12 seconds per mile drafting benefit.

4% for the 5K on the track is about 30 seconds. Lots of elites have raced 5Ks where they are effectively solo efforts and their times are not 30 seconds off when they run in a pack.

I'm sure there is a small draft effect. Hell, running into a headwind definitely has an adverse impact and these guys are creating their own 12.7mph headwind. So, tucking in has to help. But, it is minor and 4% is definitely not minor.

the dude won the Chicago Marathon last year sub-2:04! Might want to bother heading over to Letsrun once and a while.

And why do these races "count" as a world record when Paula Radcliffe's did not because she supposedly paced off men? Men pacing off men is okay though even if the men being paced off of are professional rabbits.

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Pete Githens
Reading, PA

Because that is the rules.
They can't use bikes either.
They can use coffee
but not epo

Every sport is a set of made up rules, totally at the whims of people evolving the sport at the time.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

A better question is why can the men use pacers, but if a woman wins w new record time it doesn't count if a male finishes in front of her?

Exactly. Despite the other responses in support of pacers, I still don't understand why the men get to use them. If this is an individual sport why allow it? ST goes crazy every year with the Draft fest emails at every race and the sames ones clanging the gong against drafting are now supporting pacers in the marathon.
Any aid - pacers, gorilla, or an ipod can help you run faster. I know the Berlin Marathon makes a ton of cash by being the race where world records are set but its just not cricket.

Women get to use them too. They just have to be women.

Yep, Paula was probably the last once allowed to make serious runs at WR with male pacers (but don't hold me to it). I really don't have a problem with it either way but I guess the IAFF does. I think there is an issue with women's marathoning in that the front of the elite pack is thinner than the men so there are issues with putting together good teams of rabbits, that and the women's WR is much faster than the current crop of runners. It's easy to find a dozen men that can bring the leaders through at WR pace fairly reliably, not so for the women

It isn't an individual sport, never was.
Neither is triathlon really. Some triathlons are a sport where you have to stay X meters away from the bike in front of you.

That is a rule, breaking rules is cheating.

this is simple shit guys.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Not so fast Jack.

The International Association of Athletics Federations, the sport's governing body, defines athletics in five disciplines: track and field, road running, race walking, cross country running, and mountain running.[15] All forms of athletics are individual sports with the exception of relay races.
http://en.wikipedia.org/...thletics_%28sport%29

Just crazy stupid fast. His pace was 4:41/mile. Even if I could run that fast, and I'm not sure I could, I certainly couldn't do it for more than a few yards. To run just under 13 mph for two hours, beyond impressive.

I think the guys that can only run a 2:07 at 4:50/mi are slow.


Just think, that's his zone 3 pace. I'm sure his VO2max intervals are near a 4:00 mile.... and an really easy recovery jogging pace is what, 6:00.

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Even they admit they've come up with something on paper that can't be replicated in real life. They only real world test air pressure at 3 feet behind the runner, and because runners tend to have legs, that doesn't work.

This is equivalent to a reduction in time for a 400 m lap from

66*6 to 62-5 sec. Track experience, however, suggests that athletes cannot

run close enough to gain as much advantage as this. Running behind and to

one side in the position shown in Fig. 9, the gain might be 1 sec per lap
which is more in line with experience.

They are using the word in a different way than you are.
Also, they are wrong, haha. Team tactics used all the time in these events.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

The strange thing to me is that in the women's field the European or north american ladies are at least competitive. Meanwhile in the men's field none of them are even close. I guess the east african men just train harder than the ladies there ;)

They are not even running nearly at their limit now when you see how easy they got back the deficit they had over the WR time halfway through. Nobody can tell me that this domination is due to the height and running since they were 4 years old...

Could someone tell you it is because these countries have around 5 million boys running 50 miles a week, from which to select their fastest runners?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Well according to this theory China and India should dominate any sport.

give them a few years. china already is farming kids at young age to be the top in sport. they do well in other sports currently. China has the money for athlete development

Overrated and really only of substantial value on track where you can effectively block people. On the roads, all the team tactics in the world aren't going to make a difference. The draft effect just isn't large enough. This isn't cycling. It's an individual sport.

Whether a draft is helpful I think depends on the day. I've done run races in strong winds where being in a pack of people mattered. I remember one early race from this year, several times I kicked my right leg with my left b/c the cross winds were so bad. Would have been nice to have had someone on my left to block the wind. From my experience, its hard to hit your target times in strong winds unless you've got someone stronger running in front of you blocking the wind. Pacers would be a huge benefit on a day like that and team tactics would certainly make a difference.

Isn't one of the main reasons that Boston is disallowed from being a WR course is because it's point to point and can have predominate tail wind? If they are saying a tail wind is important, then drafting to some extent, has to be important as well?

Yes, the wind of point to point is one of the reason but that's in terms of eligibility for a record. If you get the advantage of that big tail wind, so can I. There is nothing that a team can do to prevent it. There are no special team tactics that are going to matter on the road. I can draft you or your team as well as you can. And if you try to surge away from someone, the break forms too slowly and the cost of bridging the gap is simply not enough to make it something that a team could defend. There are no domestiques needed to get water bottles or hand you their bikes. The only thing a team can offer is moral support.

I have not seen that either China or India pushes sports very much for most kids.

While I have not lived in either country, I have spent weeks in both and have not seen the sports participation at any age group I have in other places.

If you think it is an individual sport because the draft doesn't matter, then there is no reason to worry about allowing pacers.

If you think the draft matters, then it isn't an individual sport, so there is no reason to worry about pacers.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Nope. I think it's an individual sport because your team gives you no advantage that they don't also give me. I can draft off of them as well as you can. I can draft off of you too.


The draft matters for world record consideration, not for victory. But I don't worry about pacers regardless because most of the last 20+ world records have been set with pacers anyway.

So it is an individual sport, mostly, sometimes?

Sounds like triathlon.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I'd say its an individual sport all the time but I don't need to nitpick.

So what point are you making?

That people asking "why are the rules what the rules are?"
Are going to get the answer "because that is what the rules are"

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Probably true, but that simple explanation hides a lot. The rules aren't completely arbitrary. There tends to be a spirit behind them. It's easy to poke holes in how they are implemented, but I wonder how much better any of us would do.

No, elevation change and the fact that it doesn't loop in some way. That does negate building a course to completely harness tail winds though.

edit: drafting and tail winds are two different things.

Superhuman, but it sure is impressive!