What constitutes an "offensive" mascot name?

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Steve Perkins

The Seminole tribe basically runs all the policies involved with the Seminole name at FSU.

No reason to let facts get in the way of political correctness though.

Isn't banning Indian names descriminatory against Indians?

Well, I think that goes to the core of the issue. How far do you go to find someone who is offended? Are people of Nordic descent offended by the Minnesota Vikings? Are birds offended by the St. Louis Cardinals? Why don't we change the name of the State of Illinois or the City/car make of Pontiac? Could you still get a "Mohawk" haircut?

Well, while the name is the Florida State Seminoles, one part of the argument that has been put forth is that there are a lot more than just the Florida tribe of the Seminoles. A lot of them in Oklahoma don't like the name and are offended by it.

Here are the 14 schools in question:

Alcorn State University (Braves)

Central Michigan University (Chippewas)

Catawba College (Indians)

Florida State University (Seminoles)

Midwestern State University (Indians)

University of Utah (Utes)

Indiana University-Pennsylvania (Indians)

Carthage College (Redmen)

Bradley University (Braves)

Arkansas State University (Indians)

Chowan College (Braves)

University of Illinois-Champaign (Illini)

University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians)

McMurry University (Indians)

Mississippi College (Choctaws)

Newberry College (Indians)

University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux)

Southeastern Oklahoma State University (Savages)

Now, to me, I think anything involving a tribe should be pretty much ok unless they use a really bad word, and I consider "fighting" to be acceptable. However, Redmen and Savages I think are not acceptable. These names are getting past the offensive criterion based on a bad grandfathering method. And despite the Washington Redskins being my childhood and hometown team, I think that name is also past the line.

Here is the NCAA release on this: http://www2.ncaa.org/...5_exec_comm_rls.html[/url]

Here is the "Core Purpose" and "" of the NCAA:

Core Purpose

Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

Core ValuesThe Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

• The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.
• The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.
• The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.
• The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.
• An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.
• Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.
• Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

I don't think regulating team names falls within the "Core Purpose", and you can at best read it between the lines of the "Core Values".

I think it's simple, get rid of Savage and Redmen and leave everyone else alone.

"Isn't banning Indian names descriminatory against Indians?"

I read a report where one of the schools is exempt because they continuously have a fairly significant Indian enrollment.

Could be wrong though.

They aren't Indians either. They never came from India.

I guess I should tell the Poarch Creek Tribe to stop advertising the "Poarch Creek Indian Bingo Palace" in Atmore, AL, and to stop having their annual "Poarch Creek Indian Powwow" in Pace, FL.

That is something that I've always wondered about. they only got the name because some white guy was lost and thought he was an entire continent AND an ocean away from where he really was.

View this from the eyes of the oppressed. Your land is taken, your tradition and religion is outlawed, and you are given a piece of land in return that is not your home and is not sufficient for life. Then have your image taken by sports teams, used up and glorified by the very types that oppressed you in the first place: big corporate oppressive institutional structures that are greedy, self centered, and naive to the pain and suffering they caused in the past. While those sporting institutions may have not been directly involved in the oppressive history of Native Americans, it sure doesn't help to continue using a mascot that adds insult to injury. It would be like using a slave as a mascot. Not cool, and definitely not acceptable.

The NCAA is weak, but it's a good start. Next, they need to step it up and eradicate native mascots altogether.

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Fortitudine Vincimus

If the people it parodies are offended, then its offensive. Different groups have different sensibilities and different buttons, what might not be offensive to you may be to others.

You might not find a "Brave" or a "Savage" mascot offensive, but then you're not qualified to judge.

I'm not surprised that Native Americans get offended when a bunch of white people...the same people who almost wiped them off the face of the planet...dress up in Native American clothes at football games and prance about like idiots. We might find it just a bit off good clean fun but we don't really see things from the perspective of the average Native American.

Its usually the same people who have a big hissy fit if a someone lets our flag touch the ground or stay up on a pole at night with out a bedside lamp who ask why Native Americans should get so bent out of shape about something so trivial as a mascot.

Funny that.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"dress up in Native American clothes at football games and prance about like idiots"

I wonder how many of the people who don't understand why that can be offensive would turn around and be offended if the Indians came up with a sports team and called themselves the Catholics. They could dress someone up in priests robes and have him lead prayers/cheers and bow and kneel. Wouldn't be a very exciting mascot, although it would be more exciting than Stanford's tree.

Interesting thought.

There's some comedian out there that something to the following "I wasn't a slave, you weren't a slave owner, so can we all just shut up and move on". Any indian we did anything to long since gone and tribal pride usually centers around the money they get from Casinos. My gradmother is an indian, get's checks from the tribe and goes to Pow Wows every year, she has no feelings about it. She enjoys her ancestry but she can't drum up feelings that she was oppressed when life for her has never been oppressed as an indian.

Indians came up with a sports team and called themselves the Catholics.

Now that would be funny ;)

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Stanford beat them to it. Their band has been banned from Notre Dame for doing half time shows that included male members of the band dressed as priests having simulated sex with female members dressed as nuns. They also did a skit about the Irish potato famine and made fun of the millions who died in that.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Might be better to call them the "Europeans", and then for each match they have, they would show up to another field and name their opposing team something completely wrong :)

They'd show up to a game already in progress, claim the field, and then make the teams playing go play in the parking lot. However, they would be allowed to sell beer at a concessions stand.

That's a perfectly valid point, but a little bit of a slippery slope, as others have pointed out. Where do you draw the line?

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Steve Perkins

[snip] She enjoys her ancestry but she can't drum up feelings that she was oppressed when life for her has never been oppressed as an indian. [/snip]


That is great for your grandma, and I mean that. Unfortunately this is not the truth for the majority of Native Americans. Oppression still exists. The whole, let's just "move on" theory is great, but there is still problems that need to be addressed. Moving on doesn't fix anything.

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Fortitudine Vincimus

Well Steve theorizing about "Europeans" and "Catholics" is good internet fun but in the real world it ain't gonna happen....so that line will never have to be drawn.

Common sense will ultimately prevail in instances where you have a lone shitbird complaining that a completely benign mascot offends him.

I just want to see an end to the Atlanta Braves stupid tomahawk chop....that irritates the hell out of me.....even when Jane Fonda does it. ;-)

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

So basically this is REALLY just about Native Americans and making sure we're PC. Okay. Common sense? No such thing in politics and business.

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Steve Perkins

PC?

I don't like that phrase because its usually used by people who are defending their offensive behavior.

Its not about being PC its about respect.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Well, I don't give a rat's ass what any team calls itself, whether it's a Native American tribe name or an animal. However, it is political correctness, regrdless of whether someone is using it to "justify" their offensive behavior or not. But let's not say that the NCAA measure is intended to curb the use of "offensive" mascot names. It's intended to curb the use of Native American mascot names. Why can't the NCAA just make a rule requiring these schools to change their mascots? Why the broad "offensive mascot name" language? What they're doing is putting in place a measure by which they can get any school to change its mascot if the NCAA says it's "offensive." I assume the NCAA has final say on what "offensive" means. It's a slippery slope, period.

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Steve Perkins

Political correctness is a term dreamt up by the right to ridicule people they don't agree with. Use it if you want I don't give a rat's ass either.

So if a team called itself "Steve Perkins is a fag" you wouldn't care or be opposed to it? Would it be mere PCness for you to ask them to change it?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

"I just want to see an end to the Atlanta Braves stupid tomahawk chop....that irritates the hell out of me.....even when Jane Fonda does it. ;-) "

I totally agree with you there. That damn chant is just inane. The "Semi-noles" do it too, in fact, I think Atlanta stole it form them.

I really wouldn't care. As a matter of fact, feel free to change your screen name to "Steve Perkins is a fag." What do I care? I am, in fact, not a fag, so who cares if you (or anyone else) wants to say that I am? I'm not sure what you mean by "Would it be mere PCness for you to ask them to change it?"

EDIT

I'm not sure what the etymology of the term "PC," but there are plenty of lefties who are just as guilty of it as people on the right.

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Steve Perkins

You're saying that is nothing more than political correctness at work when Native American tribes ask schools to change their names which they find offensive.

If a school used a name that you personally found offensive would it be just PCness at work for you to as them to change it?

Like I said, you may not find the names offensive, you may not even find 'Steve Perkins is a fag" offensive, but you're not qualified to comment on team names and if they are offensive or not, because last time I checked nobody had named one after you.


Were Notre Dame being PC when they banned Stanford's band for making fun of Catholics? for having people dressed as priests simulating sex with people dressed as nuns? Is this part of the slippery slope you speak of?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

They could dress someone up in priests robes and have him lead prayers/cheers and bow and kneel. Wouldn't be a very exciting mascot, although it would be more exciting than Stanford's tree.

You mean, like the San Diego Padres?

I don't remember people throwing poop fits at the idea of a "Father" swinging a baseball bat in the San Diego padre logo.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

The "Semi-noles" do it too, in fact, I think Atlanta stole it form them.

If I remember right, the Atlanta Braves' fans started doing that once they acquired Deion Sanders ... who played football at FSU. It was their way to honor Deion. Deion left, the chop stayed.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

It's only offensive if the Priest is saying "Go f*ck yourself San Diego". We all know how poorly that turned out for Ron Burgundy . . .

Do the schools have to change their names ... or just their mascots are not allowed to perform anymore?

I ask because, being from Illinois, there are A LOT of Native American nicknmaes used for teams from Central Illinois all the way through Wisconsin. Heck, almost all of the cities have native names.

IMO, it is a way to honor Natives. I know there has been much talk about not letting Chief Illiniwek perform at games (he does just jump around like a moron), but I never heard anything about forcing them to change their names. I hope that isn't the case. Most of these schools logos/names are very respectful and honorable (unlike the old Cleveland Indians logo).

As a fan, I love it when the Seminoles "mascot" rides the horse onto the field and slams the "spear" into the ground, getting his team ready for "battle". Maybe, it is offensive (I don't know) ... but I would find that to much different than a civil war type soldier, taking his sword and pointing it forward, signaling the "troops to take the field".

I personally would hate to see the names and mascots go. I think for many people, that will be the last they hear of anything Native-related ... unless we're talking wiskey or casinos.

Strange that Greeks don't complain about Michigan State Spartans, no one complains about the Trojans, (has old Miss been forced to change from "The Rebels", what about UNLV?), etc.

Also being in Illinois, we are close to Notre Dame, will they be forced to change their name/mascot ... surely Irish are more valuable than someone that just does "pushups after touchdowns". I love the Fighting Illini name, and the Irish name, and would wish that people would take a step back.

Are native american groups coming up with these protests, or a group of white folks looking to ease their conscience?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Instead of the chop, the Padres fans should swing around those incesnse things and chant in Latin

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I think names like Redskins and Savages are pretty bad and should go. For specific Indian tribes, I think it's only fair to let the tribe decide.

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You're saying that is nothing more than political correctness at work when Native American tribes ask schools to change their names which they find offensive.

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the NCAA's involvement in this issue has to do with projecting an image of political correctness. Frankly, the NCAA has no business doing this. If a tribe has a problem with a school using its tribe name as a mascot, the proper entity with which to raise the issue is the school, not the National Collegiate Athletics Association. In addition, the NCAA's "solution" seems to discount the original poster's statment that the Seminole Council voted in favor of backing FSU in keeping the mascot. Apparently, if the NCAA says it's offensive, it's offensive regardless of whether the allegedly slandered ethinicity thinks it's offensive.

Were Notre Dame being PC when they banned Stanford's band for making fun of Catholics? for having people dressed as priests simulating sex with people dressed as nuns?

Yes and no. Yes because kids are kids and they do stupid offensice shit like that. They should take it in stride.

No, because it was their stadium, and they can do what they want in their stadium.

Is this part of the slippery slope you speak of?

No. Because this has nothing to do with the NCAA's power to force a school to change its mascot.

EDIT

And one more thing. Where do you draw the line? If the Lakota tribe thinks FSU's use of the Seminole name is offensive, do you ban FSU from using "Seminoles" just because another Native American tribe thinks that no Native American tribe name should be used as a mascot? That is the slippery slope of which I speak.

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Steve Perkins

"You mean, like the San Diego Padres?"

Just shows how much I follow baseball. Damnit, you ruined my whole thought of the day.

I've never actually seen the Padres mascot. What is their mascot? They actually had a guy in priest robes as their mascot?

I think this whole NCAA thing is all a little over the top, but it isn't like I am surprised by it. It was only a matter of time. You think Illinois will ever get rid of the Chief? I doubt, nor do I want them to.

I don't know that the Redskins name is "bad" ... but out-dated. When I look at the Redskin logo, I can see that they are not being clownish about the name. It may not be the best name in the world, but IMO it is not intentionally offensive or demeaning. It's like calling black folks "colored", at one time that was the common lingo. It is now, out-dated.

Savages needs to go. I agree.

For specific Indian tribes, I think it's only fair to let the tribe decide.

I agree.

The Illinois Iriqois ... I like the sound of that ... plus, that both in end that "ois" sound. I may start calling myself "The Bois from Illinois". No, that's dumb.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Here's their old logo ...





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That's not offensive ... but their old jersey colors are ...



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I wonder how many Christians have a problem with the Aneheim (now LA) Angels. Dop Satanist have a problem with Duke and Depaul using a colored demon or devil as their logo?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Yes they do. If teams using offensive names want to participate in the NCAAs comnpetitions then the NCAA have every right to make the rules of admission that they see fit. If a school called the Hoboken Fighting Nazis wanted to play in an NCAA competition then the NCAA have every right to tell them to drop the offensive mascot or find another competititve arena.

Point taken, but giving this power to the NCAA is tantamount to allowing them virtually unfettered control over almost any aspect of a University. All they have to do is threaten to expel the school from the NCAA, and they'll get whatever they want. What if an ethinicity found the color red offensive? Do we allow the NCAA to say that no member university can use the color red? This is the slippery slope, Matt. There's a potential here for serious abuse by the NCAA.

The Seminoles of Florida voted for the use of their name but the parent tribe in Oklahoma has voted against the use of their name by Florida State because they find it offensive.

I see. Well then who do we side with? The national council or the Seminoles of Florida? If only one Seminole in the whole US finds it offensive, do we ban the name as a mascot?

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Steve Perkins

Yup. It's a cartoon of a priest, but it's a monk swinging a bat. (kinda like Chief Wahoo is an Indian...)

http://shop.mlb.com/...ble--pi-1850007.html

And it has nothing to do with the individual groups getting their panties in a twist, either, as was claimed by someone earlier. The SDSU Aztecs changed their mascot, due to social pressure, and against the desire of nearly all the students and alumni a few years ago from a pretty cool "Warrior Montezuma" to some lame-ass "Diplomat Montezuma", even though there weren't any actual Aztecs who were offended.



A little over the top? Gee, ya think? ;->

I'm curious to see what happens with the Indianapolis 500, and for that matter Indianapolis, Indiana, in general!

The "it's all for the sake of PC" is pretty strong here, IMO.

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"You'll find a slight squeeze on the hooter an excellent safety precaution, Miss Scrumptious."

"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." -- Richard Feynman

It would be politically correct for me to refrain from refering to you, Matt, as a left wing zealot who can't outwit livestock. So I will be PC and not refer to you in this manner. (I would put one of those annoying sideways happy faces here made with a colon and the right half of a paranthesis but it is against my sensibilities)

Steve, the NCAA has a whole host of rules by which schools must abide in order to participate in NCAA competitions. Adding one more will not suddenly grant them unfettered control over every educational institution in America. They are not creating a new power for themselves here.

Any organization that has rules has the potential to abuse them, the NCAA is no different. What are you advocating?...the removal of all rules, codes of conduct, etc. because they might be abused??????

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Thanks Al for your always entertaining contribution to the discussion.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Actually, it WAS the Oklahoma Seminoles who said they had nothing against the Florida State mascot. In fact, they felt it honored their tribe.

This according to the newspapers in Palm Beach and Pensacola.

I'm advocating that the SCHOOLS be given the choice as to whether to change a mascot name, NOT having it be dictated to them by an organization which has no business doing so. This is a stupd, wortheless rule that has no rational relationship to the NCAA's governance of collegiate athletices, and it will not survive the courts when FSU files their lawsuit.

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Steve Perkins

I will wager the Seminole tribe of Florida will be joining that suit, on the side of FSU.

The Providence College Friars. A catholic school in Rhode Island. At the games, there were always brothers and priests watching the action while the Friar Mascot was jumping around like an idiot.

So we do have mascots that "belittle" mainstream cultural ideals. Now, what I don't get is according to some, if one single Catholic found Friar Mascot offensive they should have to change their mascot? Personally, I think it would be funny to see.

That's complete crap. You can always find some idiot who will get "offended" about anything. Typically, that person should look to themselves first and see what their problem is and why they are offended by something so innocuous.

I do think some team names, such as the Savages, are in poor taste. But, to have an actual Indian tribal name I don't see how that is offensive. Maybe if their mascot was portrayed as a drunken idiot then you could see some offensive stereotypes. But for names like the Seminoles, Illini, etc I just don't see what is offensive about it.

In keeping with the theme of posting religious school's mascots to you I present the Wake Forest Deamon Deacons;

And I'll reiterate my same question. Why aren't these mascots deemed offensive?

Why do some people like chocolate ice cream and others prefer butter pecan crunch?

Mascots at football games may not offend Friars, or Padres or Deacons, but just because they don't find them offensive doesn't mean that Native Americans should sharre their laissez faire sensibilities. Native American history is very different from the history of the Benedictine or Cistercian Monks, and they might have very good reason to be offended by a bunch of white college kids painting their faces and sticking feathers in their hair before getting drunk at a football game.

I don't find hairy asses in triathlon transitions offensive, but some doo gooder with too much time on his hands in the triathlon powers that be has seen fit to ban them.

We're all different and have different sensibilities. Refusal to recognize this is just another form of intolerance.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

<i>I don't find hairy asses in triathlon transitions offensive, but some doo gooder with too much time on his hands in the triathlon powers that be has seen fit to ban them. </i>

I don't think the triathlon powers have much say so over the local public nudity laws, but nice try on the non sequitor.

so what would your response be if a couple deacons or friars came out and said they were offended by those mascots?

You're not qualified to judge, you're not a native American.

You should probably work on your reading comprehension. I said "I just don't see what is offensive about it." What you read was "Indian Mascots are not offensive." Too different sentances with different meanings one saying I don't understand the offensive nature and the other making a declarative statement that Indian mascots are not offensive.

Maybe instead of being dismissive you could explain what is offensive about it and enlighten everyone here with your wisdom, but don't bring up Savages or Redskins or the like as I get how they can be considered offensive.

I think a name about a priest and a young male child as a team mascot would be the equivalent to Redskins or the few names out there that are not tribe names.

I think it is tough to compare the names of religious schools that took on religiously themed team names, to universities using names that either mock or taunt another section of the population.

As I said in my previous post, I understand how the name Redskins is considered offensive, same with Savages. I was looking for his insight into the offensive natur of names such as the Seminoles, Illini (and if that is offensive, isn't the state name Illinois offensive also?), things like that.

IMO, the issue here is not whether the mascot name is offensive to certain group. Let's take that out the equation and say that it is. Why is it the NCAA's perogative to force a school to change its mascot? What does that have to do with the management of an athletic association? This is a stupid usurpation of power by the NCAA.

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Steve Perkins

THe NCAA are not asking schools to change their mascots. they are saying that certain mascots will not be allowed to participate in NCAA championship games.

Dudes jumping around on horses will still be there during the regular season, just not in championship rounds.

The NCAA have the same right to ban mascots from their games as they do athletes who take money, flunk classes, or juice. Its their party and they make the rules.

Of course they're not directly asking the schools to change their mascots. But, their intent is to force the schools to change them. Let's not be naive.

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Steve Perkins

my favorite, the fightin' whites!

http://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite/111

Jan. 23, 2003 -- When members of the University of Northern Colorado's intramural basketball team named themselves the "Fightin' Whities" last year, they were hoping to make a point. They ended up making a whole lot more.

The UNC team adopted the "Fightin' Whities" name after an unsuccessful attempt to get nearby Eaton High School to drop the use of a loin-cloth clad caricature for its team, "Fighting Reds."

The satirical move set off a media frenzy and requests poured in for shirts, hats and other merchandise bearing the "Fightin' Whities" name and slogan, "Everythang’s gonna be all white."

"We never really thought anything would become of it," said Jeff Van Irwarden, a senior on the basketball team and manager of the T-shirt campaign. "We just wanted to send a message to Eaton by doing the same thing they had done. But it really went beyond anything we could have ever expected."

Internet sales of the T-shirts and hats, featuring the team name, slogan and a caricature of a grinning white guy, have raised more than $125,000 to be used as scholarship money for Native American students at UNC.

If a school had an Adolph Hitler mascot and they were playing Brandeis and refused to change or remove their mascot, would the NCAA be within their sphere of influence to step in and ban the mascot?

No.

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Steve Perkins

So, you're saying the NCAA have no control over who plays in their tournaments or what sort of standards of behavior participants should be expected to maintain?

I think you're the first anarchist lawyer I've ever had the pleasure of running into.

I don't think that's what I said.

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Steve Perkins

Seems to me that you're saying the NCAA can't legislate standards of behavior in their tournaments...which is all that they are trying to do.

Seems to me you're mis-construing what I'm saying.

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Steve Perkins

Seems to me you are misconstruing what the NCAA are trying to do.

Seems to me I'm not.

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Steve Perkins

Well cool, we're in agreement.

Unless the schools Native American mascot involves an improper adjective or something then I'm fine with it. I don't think "fighting" is that bad, so the Illini work for me. And their logo I also feel is respectful.

If Illini is bad, then so is Illinois as you say. And if that is bad, well we're in trouble because more things are Native American named than people realize.

I think any managing authority of an organization has an interest in the the public image of that group and of its members. So if a local chapter of the Boy Scouts decided to let in a gay scoutmaster (or whatever they are called) then the national chapter has the authority to kick that chapter out I do believe, clearly I could be wrong. I would assume, given that the NCAA is an organization that schools voluntarily enter into membership with that the NCAA can set whatever rules they want, within legal bounds. So this to me doesn't sound illegal, I of course defer to you on that level.

Dudes jumping around on horses will still be there during the regular season, just not in championship rounds.

That's how I understood it to be.

As I mentioned before, I live in Illinois ... and for the most part, we celebrate the native American heritage in this state. It seems many cities, rivers, etc have Native names ... everything from Peoria to Chicago ... and MANY schools have Native nicknames/mascots. To not have them would seem out of place.

As I also mentioned the logo's of these schools feature a Native Chief, a symbol of intelligence, strength, and power. The mascots, usually include some student in native headress jumping around like an escaped monkey from the zoo ... could go.

The FSU Seminole is one mascot that you do not see doing that (as far as I know). THe mascot rides onto the field, slams the spear into the ground, and the Seminoles take the field (to symbolize "going to battle"). I'm not sure how Natives take it, but I think it's awesome. I don't see anything demeaning in that display ... just as the Miami Hurricanes aren't demeaning Native culture by stomping on the Seminoles helmet that's painted at midfield.

Would these organizations find it offensive if the student wearing the wardrobe was Native American?

These seems like a feeble, outdated, and meaningless, act to try and make up for what happened a century ago.

Wouldn't it seem that this situation could be handled in a more-amicable fashion?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Not a mascot. Long before it was PC to object to Native American Mascots the University of Illinois made efforts to portray Chief Illiniwek as a brave and dignified symbol of the people that first occupied the land that is now Illinois. None of the descendants of these people survived the invasion of european settlers therefore no one can legitimately sanctify or object to the portrayal of this symbol. I do agree that his half time dance is silly and cartoonish but I object to people including The Chief in discussions of racist mascots. He is not a mascot he is a symbol.



Pat University of Illinois 1983/1987

Perhaps you are correct, however, let's take the NCAA's position to its logical extreme. I will assume that there are a large number of associations to which many major universities belong, other than the NCAA. Let's assume each association decides they want to have standards like the NCAA's that govern the choice of mascot a school makes. Not all are going to have the same standards. Suddenly, what you'll have is 50 different organizations with 50 different standards telling the schools which mascots they can and can't use. I'm not saying that the use of some mascots is not offensive, or that offended groups should suck it up. I'm saying that the NCAA is not the body that should be governing those standards.

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Steve Perkins

To me it seems like the schools would then have to determine if those organizations are worth being members of. If a national debate club organization wants to make me change my school mascot, I'd not join that organization if I was the University.

I also think the logical extreme of any situation will mean we kind of end any and all reasonableness for course of action. There's a multitude of common things we can take to the extreme that would make living every day life impossible. However, is there ANY organization that is appropriate to be looking into the mascots of Universities? Is it only those Universities themselves? I can see how the case for this could be made.

This is just a really interesting situation and will be fun to watch it play out. I'm hopeful that common sense and decency win out. I hope Native American tribe names are allowed, and I hope names like Savages and Redskins go away

What do you guys think of this?

Instead of trying to decide if the "Seminoles" or the "Blue Devils" or the "Deamon Deacons" are offensive, why not just do away with nicknames/mascots in the NCAA?

Do we really need the "Tar Hills", when everyone knows who UNC is? Isn't USC just fine being USC, do we really need the "Trojans"?

What's wrong with just having Illinois v. Indiana, instead of the "Fightin' Illini v. The Hoosiers"?

Again, do we really need the Huskers, The Sooner, The Longhorns ... wouldn't folks buy just as much merchandise and enjoy the game just as much if it were just "Nebraska, Oklahoma, and Texas"?

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I like the mascots, but at some point too much emphasis is being made on the offensiveness and the harm that poor Ralphie, Uga, and other animal mascots suffer (<--sarcasm).

At some point, is having mascots just "not worth all the crap that comes with it"?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Of course it's never going to get to the logical extreme. That's why they call it an extreme. But let's assume there are only twenty organizations with differing standards... and those standards are not going to be limited to mascot names, there will be other requirements, too... even that becomes unworkable. I just think this is a ridiculous issue for the NCAA to be spearheading.

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Steve Perkins

Ok but seriously, what's a hokie?





muwahahaha.

It's what comes right before the Pokie.

Dude... you got me. But surely it offends somebody! We should ban any team using it as a mascot from post-season play.

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Steve Perkins

It's a turkey, I don't get it, but it's a turkey.

Well, see...there you go. All you have to do is make up some weird name and adopt it as your mascot and nobody gets offended. Unless its some inside joke about someone that gets out? But that'll never happen.

Funny, no one really seems to get bent out of shape by the South Carolina Gamecocks referring to themselves (and on merchandise) simply as "The Cocks".

I personally think Morehead State should change its offensive name (More ... head) ... or get a more clever mascot, because we all know what their fans mean when they chant "More head. More head. More head."

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Florida State 1, NCAA 0

http://sports.yahoo.com/...rov=ap&type=lgns

This has alway been a frustrating situation to me. FSU has always had the OK of the seminole nation. I've heard that they donate to their charitable causes. So that makes sense, if the people directly affected don't care what right do unaffected people have to complain. The Illini quandry is that no Illini descendants exist so they can not approve of the symbol or school nickname. Doesn't that beg the question of who exactly should be offended? And if no living people have a direct claim to being offended..........

Pat

When I was in college, we had an IM team calledthe BFA, named after our beloved IM director, the Big Fucking Asshole. We told anyone who asked that it meant Ben Franklin Admirers.

a couple of years ago, a Colorado school with a large Indian (Native american) population had an IM team call themselves "The Fighting Whities", on the back of the shirts it read "How do you like it?"

What I can't stand is that stupid FSU war chant the idiot Atlanta Brave fans copied.

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I remember the Fighting Whities. I thought it was hilarious. Of course, I am the type that like the Fighting Irish too. I am white and half Irish.

The FSU Seminoles have been removed from the NCAA's list. Reasons sited were the long-standing, respectful and beneficial relationship between the Seminole tribe and Florida State University.

FSU was very upset that the word "hostile" was interpreted from "Seminole".

The article was in an Illinois newspaper, focusing on the fact that Illinois's situation is different than FSU.

Illinois may need to drop its "fightin'" part of the title, but they are determined to keep the "Illini" as their nickname. I personally want to see Chief Illiniwek gone. The stupid dancing around at halftime offends me ... for no other reason than it's dumb. Chief, fold you arms, stand at the end of the endzone, and look brave, strong, and wise.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --