And I'll reiterate my same question. Why aren't these mascots deemed offensive?

Why do some people like chocolate ice cream and others prefer butter pecan crunch?

Mascots at football games may not offend Friars, or Padres or Deacons, but just because they don't find them offensive doesn't mean that Native Americans should sharre their laissez faire sensibilities. Native American history is very different from the history of the Benedictine or Cistercian Monks, and they might have very good reason to be offended by a bunch of white college kids painting their faces and sticking feathers in their hair before getting drunk at a football game.

I don't find hairy asses in triathlon transitions offensive, but some doo gooder with too much time on his hands in the triathlon powers that be has seen fit to ban them.

We're all different and have different sensibilities. Refusal to recognize this is just another form of intolerance.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

<i>I don't find hairy asses in triathlon transitions offensive, but some doo gooder with too much time on his hands in the triathlon powers that be has seen fit to ban them. </i>

I don't think the triathlon powers have much say so over the local public nudity laws, but nice try on the non sequitor.

so what would your response be if a couple deacons or friars came out and said they were offended by those mascots?

You're not qualified to judge, you're not a native American.

You should probably work on your reading comprehension. I said "I just don't see what is offensive about it." What you read was "Indian Mascots are not offensive." Too different sentances with different meanings one saying I don't understand the offensive nature and the other making a declarative statement that Indian mascots are not offensive.

Maybe instead of being dismissive you could explain what is offensive about it and enlighten everyone here with your wisdom, but don't bring up Savages or Redskins or the like as I get how they can be considered offensive.

I think a name about a priest and a young male child as a team mascot would be the equivalent to Redskins or the few names out there that are not tribe names.

I think it is tough to compare the names of religious schools that took on religiously themed team names, to universities using names that either mock or taunt another section of the population.

As I said in my previous post, I understand how the name Redskins is considered offensive, same with Savages. I was looking for his insight into the offensive natur of names such as the Seminoles, Illini (and if that is offensive, isn't the state name Illinois offensive also?), things like that.

IMO, the issue here is not whether the mascot name is offensive to certain group. Let's take that out the equation and say that it is. Why is it the NCAA's perogative to force a school to change its mascot? What does that have to do with the management of an athletic association? This is a stupid usurpation of power by the NCAA.

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Steve Perkins

THe NCAA are not asking schools to change their mascots. they are saying that certain mascots will not be allowed to participate in NCAA championship games.

Dudes jumping around on horses will still be there during the regular season, just not in championship rounds.

The NCAA have the same right to ban mascots from their games as they do athletes who take money, flunk classes, or juice. Its their party and they make the rules.

Of course they're not directly asking the schools to change their mascots. But, their intent is to force the schools to change them. Let's not be naive.

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Steve Perkins

my favorite, the fightin' whites!

http://www.cafepress.com/fightinwhite/111

Jan. 23, 2003 -- When members of the University of Northern Colorado's intramural basketball team named themselves the "Fightin' Whities" last year, they were hoping to make a point. They ended up making a whole lot more.

The UNC team adopted the "Fightin' Whities" name after an unsuccessful attempt to get nearby Eaton High School to drop the use of a loin-cloth clad caricature for its team, "Fighting Reds."

The satirical move set off a media frenzy and requests poured in for shirts, hats and other merchandise bearing the "Fightin' Whities" name and slogan, "Everythang’s gonna be all white."

"We never really thought anything would become of it," said Jeff Van Irwarden, a senior on the basketball team and manager of the T-shirt campaign. "We just wanted to send a message to Eaton by doing the same thing they had done. But it really went beyond anything we could have ever expected."

Internet sales of the T-shirts and hats, featuring the team name, slogan and a caricature of a grinning white guy, have raised more than $125,000 to be used as scholarship money for Native American students at UNC.

If a school had an Adolph Hitler mascot and they were playing Brandeis and refused to change or remove their mascot, would the NCAA be within their sphere of influence to step in and ban the mascot?

No.

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Steve Perkins

So, you're saying the NCAA have no control over who plays in their tournaments or what sort of standards of behavior participants should be expected to maintain?

I think you're the first anarchist lawyer I've ever had the pleasure of running into.

I don't think that's what I said.

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Steve Perkins

Seems to me that you're saying the NCAA can't legislate standards of behavior in their tournaments...which is all that they are trying to do.

Seems to me you're mis-construing what I'm saying.

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Steve Perkins

Seems to me you are misconstruing what the NCAA are trying to do.

Seems to me I'm not.

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Steve Perkins

Well cool, we're in agreement.

Unless the schools Native American mascot involves an improper adjective or something then I'm fine with it. I don't think "fighting" is that bad, so the Illini work for me. And their logo I also feel is respectful.

If Illini is bad, then so is Illinois as you say. And if that is bad, well we're in trouble because more things are Native American named than people realize.

I think any managing authority of an organization has an interest in the the public image of that group and of its members. So if a local chapter of the Boy Scouts decided to let in a gay scoutmaster (or whatever they are called) then the national chapter has the authority to kick that chapter out I do believe, clearly I could be wrong. I would assume, given that the NCAA is an organization that schools voluntarily enter into membership with that the NCAA can set whatever rules they want, within legal bounds. So this to me doesn't sound illegal, I of course defer to you on that level.

Dudes jumping around on horses will still be there during the regular season, just not in championship rounds.

That's how I understood it to be.

As I mentioned before, I live in Illinois ... and for the most part, we celebrate the native American heritage in this state. It seems many cities, rivers, etc have Native names ... everything from Peoria to Chicago ... and MANY schools have Native nicknames/mascots. To not have them would seem out of place.

As I also mentioned the logo's of these schools feature a Native Chief, a symbol of intelligence, strength, and power. The mascots, usually include some student in native headress jumping around like an escaped monkey from the zoo ... could go.

The FSU Seminole is one mascot that you do not see doing that (as far as I know). THe mascot rides onto the field, slams the spear into the ground, and the Seminoles take the field (to symbolize "going to battle"). I'm not sure how Natives take it, but I think it's awesome. I don't see anything demeaning in that display ... just as the Miami Hurricanes aren't demeaning Native culture by stomping on the Seminoles helmet that's painted at midfield.

Would these organizations find it offensive if the student wearing the wardrobe was Native American?

These seems like a feeble, outdated, and meaningless, act to try and make up for what happened a century ago.

Wouldn't it seem that this situation could be handled in a more-amicable fashion?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Not a mascot. Long before it was PC to object to Native American Mascots the University of Illinois made efforts to portray Chief Illiniwek as a brave and dignified symbol of the people that first occupied the land that is now Illinois. None of the descendants of these people survived the invasion of european settlers therefore no one can legitimately sanctify or object to the portrayal of this symbol. I do agree that his half time dance is silly and cartoonish but I object to people including The Chief in discussions of racist mascots. He is not a mascot he is a symbol.



Pat University of Illinois 1983/1987

Perhaps you are correct, however, let's take the NCAA's position to its logical extreme. I will assume that there are a large number of associations to which many major universities belong, other than the NCAA. Let's assume each association decides they want to have standards like the NCAA's that govern the choice of mascot a school makes. Not all are going to have the same standards. Suddenly, what you'll have is 50 different organizations with 50 different standards telling the schools which mascots they can and can't use. I'm not saying that the use of some mascots is not offensive, or that offended groups should suck it up. I'm saying that the NCAA is not the body that should be governing those standards.

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Steve Perkins

To me it seems like the schools would then have to determine if those organizations are worth being members of. If a national debate club organization wants to make me change my school mascot, I'd not join that organization if I was the University.

I also think the logical extreme of any situation will mean we kind of end any and all reasonableness for course of action. There's a multitude of common things we can take to the extreme that would make living every day life impossible. However, is there ANY organization that is appropriate to be looking into the mascots of Universities? Is it only those Universities themselves? I can see how the case for this could be made.

This is just a really interesting situation and will be fun to watch it play out. I'm hopeful that common sense and decency win out. I hope Native American tribe names are allowed, and I hope names like Savages and Redskins go away