NCAA Get Real?

Aug 12, 05 7:20

Post #1 of 88 (2924 views)

What do y'all think about the NCAA ruling banning teams with "offensive" mascot names from post-season tournaments?

This ruling would affect the Florida State Seminoles--the Seminole tribal council has voted 18-2 in support of FSU continuing to use their tribal name. Why should the NCAA care?

I'm Irish, and the Boston Celtics and Notre Dame Fighting Irish nicknames don't bother me a bit--in fact, I like both those teams in part, because of their names.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 7:33

Post #2 of 88 (2917 views)

What constitutes an "offensive" mascot name?

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Steve Perkins

Re: NCAA Get Real? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 7:34

Post #3 of 88 (2915 views)

Re: NCAA Get Real? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 7:55

Post #4 of 88 (2904 views)

The Seminole tribe basically runs all the policies involved with the Seminole name at FSU.

No reason to let facts get in the way of political correctness though.

Isn't banning Indian names descriminatory against Indians?

Re: NCAA Get Real? [steveperx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 8:01

Post #5 of 88 (2900 views)

Well, I think that goes to the core of the issue. How far do you go to find someone who is offended? Are people of Nordic descent offended by the Minnesota Vikings? Are birds offended by the St. Louis Cardinals? Why don't we change the name of the State of Illinois or the City/car make of Pontiac? Could you still get a "Mohawk" haircut?

Re: NCAA Get Real? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 8:44

Post #6 of 88 (2882 views)

Well, while the name is the Florida State Seminoles, one part of the argument that has been put forth is that there are a lot more than just the Florida tribe of the Seminoles. A lot of them in Oklahoma don't like the name and are offended by it.

Here are the 14 schools in question:

Alcorn State University (Braves)

Central Michigan University (Chippewas)

Catawba College (Indians)

Florida State University (Seminoles)

Midwestern State University (Indians)

University of Utah (Utes)

Indiana University-Pennsylvania (Indians)

Carthage College (Redmen)

Bradley University (Braves)

Arkansas State University (Indians)

Chowan College (Braves)

University of Illinois-Champaign (Illini)

University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians)

McMurry University (Indians)

Mississippi College (Choctaws)

Newberry College (Indians)

University of North Dakota (Fighting Sioux)

Southeastern Oklahoma State University (Savages)

Now, to me, I think anything involving a tribe should be pretty much ok unless they use a really bad word, and I consider "fighting" to be acceptable. However, Redmen and Savages I think are not acceptable. These names are getting past the offensive criterion based on a bad grandfathering method. And despite the Washington Redskins being my childhood and hometown team, I think that name is also past the line.

Here is the NCAA release on this: http://www2.ncaa.org/...5_exec_comm_rls.html[/url]

Here is the "Core Purpose" and "" of the NCAA:

Core Purpose

Our purpose is to govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

Core ValuesThe Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.
The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.
The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.
The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.
An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.
Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.
Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.

I don't think regulating team names falls within the "Core Purpose", and you can at best read it between the lines of the "Core Values".

I think it's simple, get rid of Savage and Redmen and leave everyone else alone.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [ajfranke] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 8:55

Post #7 of 88 (2878 views)

"Isn't banning Indian names descriminatory against Indians?"

I read a report where one of the schools is exempt because they continuously have a fairly significant Indian enrollment.

Could be wrong though.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:08

Post #8 of 88 (2869 views)

They aren't Indians either. They never came from India.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:16

Post #9 of 88 (2866 views)

I guess I should tell the Poarch Creek Tribe to stop advertising the "Poarch Creek Indian Bingo Palace" in Atmore, AL, and to stop having their annual "Poarch Creek Indian Powwow" in Pace, FL.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:20

Post #10 of 88 (2865 views)

That is something that I've always wondered about. they only got the name because some white guy was lost and thought he was an entire continent AND an ocean away from where he really was.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [tri_bri2] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:33

Post #11 of 88 (2859 views)

View this from the eyes of the oppressed. Your land is taken, your tradition and religion is outlawed, and you are given a piece of land in return that is not your home and is not sufficient for life. Then have your image taken by sports teams, used up and glorified by the very types that oppressed you in the first place: big corporate oppressive institutional structures that are greedy, self centered, and naive to the pain and suffering they caused in the past. While those sporting institutions may have not been directly involved in the oppressive history of Native Americans, it sure doesn't help to continue using a mascot that adds insult to injury. It would be like using a slave as a mascot. Not cool, and definitely not acceptable.

The NCAA is weak, but it's a good start. Next, they need to step it up and eradicate native mascots altogether.

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Fortitudine Vincimus

Re: NCAA Get Real? [steveperx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:37

Post #12 of 88 (2858 views)

In Reply To:

What constitutes an "offensive" mascot name?

If the people it parodies are offended, then its offensive. Different groups have different sensibilities and different buttons, what might not be offensive to you may be to others.

You might not find a "Brave" or a "Savage" mascot offensive, but then you're not qualified to judge.

I'm not surprised that Native Americans get offended when a bunch of white people...the same people who almost wiped them off the face of the planet...dress up in Native American clothes at football games and prance about like idiots. We might find it just a bit off good clean fun but we don't really see things from the perspective of the average Native American.

Its usually the same people who have a big hissy fit if a someone lets our flag touch the ground or stay up on a pole at night with out a bedside lamp who ask why Native Americans should get so bent out of shape about something so trivial as a mascot.

Funny that.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Last edited by: MattinSF: Aug 12, 05 9:39

Re: NCAA Get Real? [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:45

Post #13 of 88 (2848 views)

"dress up in Native American clothes at football games and prance about like idiots"

I wonder how many of the people who don't understand why that can be offensive would turn around and be offended if the Indians came up with a sports team and called themselves the Catholics. They could dress someone up in priests robes and have him lead prayers/cheers and bow and kneel. Wouldn't be a very exciting mascot, although it would be more exciting than Stanford's tree.

Interesting thought.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [trinitythlete] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:50

Post #14 of 88 (2844 views)

In Reply To:

View this from the eyes of the oppressed. Your land is taken, your tradition and religion is outlawed, and you are given a piece of land in return that is not your home and is not sufficient for life. Then have your image taken by sports teams, used up and glorified by the very types that oppressed you in the first place: big corporate oppressive institutional structures that are greedy, self centered, and naive to the pain and suffering they caused in the past. While those sporting institutions may have not been directly involved in the oppressive history of Native Americans, it sure doesn't help to continue using a mascot that adds insult to injury. It would be like using a slave as a mascot. Not cool, and definitely not acceptable.

The NCAA is weak, but it's a good start. Next, they need to step it up and eradicate native mascots altogether.

There's some comedian out there that something to the following "I wasn't a slave, you weren't a slave owner, so can we all just shut up and move on". Any indian we did anything to long since gone and tribal pride usually centers around the money they get from Casinos. My gradmother is an indian, get's checks from the tribe and goes to Pow Wows every year, she has no feelings about it. She enjoys her ancestry but she can't drum up feelings that she was oppressed when life for her has never been oppressed as an indian.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [Tyrius] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:51

Post #15 of 88 (2844 views)

Indians came up with a sports team and called themselves the Catholics.

Now that would be funny ;)

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Re: NCAA Get Real? [jhc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:53

Post #16 of 88 (2840 views)

In Reply To:

Indians came up with a sports team and called themselves the Catholics.

Now that would be funny ;)

Stanford beat them to it. Their band has been banned from Notre Dame for doing half time shows that included male members of the band dressed as priests having simulated sex with female members dressed as nuns. They also did a skit about the Irish potato famine and made fun of the millions who died in that.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Re: NCAA Get Real? [jhc] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 9:58

Post #17 of 88 (2832 views)

Might be better to call them the "Europeans", and then for each match they have, they would show up to another field and name their opposing team something completely wrong :)

Re: NCAA Get Real? [Markus Mucus] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:04

Post #18 of 88 (2826 views)

They'd show up to a game already in progress, claim the field, and then make the teams playing go play in the parking lot. However, they would be allowed to sell beer at a concessions stand.

Re: NCAA Get Real? [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:09

Post #19 of 88 (2822 views)

That's a perfectly valid point, but a little bit of a slippery slope, as others have pointed out. Where do you draw the line?

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Steve Perkins

Re: NCAA Get Real? [deckdrain] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:10

Post #20 of 88 (2822 views)

[snip] She enjoys her ancestry but she can't drum up feelings that she was oppressed when life for her has never been oppressed as an indian. [/snip]

That is great for your grandma, and I mean that. Unfortunately this is not the truth for the majority of Native Americans. Oppression still exists. The whole, let's just "move on" theory is great, but there is still problems that need to be addressed. Moving on doesn't fix anything.

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Fortitudine Vincimus

Re: NCAA Get Real? [steveperx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:18

Post #21 of 88 (2818 views)

Well Steve theorizing about "Europeans" and "Catholics" is good internet fun but in the real world it ain't gonna happen....so that line will never have to be drawn.

Common sense will ultimately prevail in instances where you have a lone shitbird complaining that a completely benign mascot offends him.

I just want to see an end to the Atlanta Braves stupid tomahawk chop....that irritates the hell out of me.....even when Jane Fonda does it. ;-)

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Re: NCAA Get Real? [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:19

Post #22 of 88 (2816 views)

So basically this is REALLY just about Native Americans and making sure we're PC. Okay. Common sense? No such thing in politics and business.

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Steve Perkins

Re: NCAA Get Real? [steveperx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:24

Post #23 of 88 (2810 views)

PC?

I don't like that phrase because its usually used by people who are defending their offensive behavior.

Its not about being PC its about respect.

----------------------------------------------------------
"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Re: NCAA Get Real? [MattinSF] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 10:46

Post #24 of 88 (2798 views)

Well, I don't give a rat's ass what any team calls itself, whether it's a Native American tribe name or an animal. However, it is political correctness, regrdless of whether someone is using it to "justify" their offensive behavior or not. But let's not say that the NCAA measure is intended to curb the use of "offensive" mascot names. It's intended to curb the use of Native American mascot names. Why can't the NCAA just make a rule requiring these schools to change their mascots? Why the broad "offensive mascot name" language? What they're doing is putting in place a measure by which they can get any school to change its mascot if the NCAA says it's "offensive." I assume the NCAA has final say on what "offensive" means. It's a slippery slope, period.

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Steve Perkins

Re: NCAA Get Real? [steveperx] [ In reply to ]

Aug 12, 05 11:00

Post #25 of 88 (2791 views)

Political correctness is a term dreamt up by the right to ridicule people they don't agree with. Use it if you want I don't give a rat's ass either.

So if a team called itself "Steve Perkins is a fag" you wouldn't care or be opposed to it? Would it be mere PCness for you to ask them to change it?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

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