"I just want to see an end to the Atlanta Braves stupid tomahawk chop....that irritates the hell out of me.....even when Jane Fonda does it. ;-) "

I totally agree with you there. That damn chant is just inane. The "Semi-noles" do it too, in fact, I think Atlanta stole it form them.

I really wouldn't care. As a matter of fact, feel free to change your screen name to "Steve Perkins is a fag." What do I care? I am, in fact, not a fag, so who cares if you (or anyone else) wants to say that I am? I'm not sure what you mean by "Would it be mere PCness for you to ask them to change it?"

EDIT

I'm not sure what the etymology of the term "PC," but there are plenty of lefties who are just as guilty of it as people on the right.

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Steve Perkins

You're saying that is nothing more than political correctness at work when Native American tribes ask schools to change their names which they find offensive.

If a school used a name that you personally found offensive would it be just PCness at work for you to as them to change it?

Like I said, you may not find the names offensive, you may not even find 'Steve Perkins is a fag" offensive, but you're not qualified to comment on team names and if they are offensive or not, because last time I checked nobody had named one after you.


Were Notre Dame being PC when they banned Stanford's band for making fun of Catholics? for having people dressed as priests simulating sex with people dressed as nuns? Is this part of the slippery slope you speak of?

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

They could dress someone up in priests robes and have him lead prayers/cheers and bow and kneel. Wouldn't be a very exciting mascot, although it would be more exciting than Stanford's tree.

You mean, like the San Diego Padres?

I don't remember people throwing poop fits at the idea of a "Father" swinging a baseball bat in the San Diego padre logo.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

The "Semi-noles" do it too, in fact, I think Atlanta stole it form them.

If I remember right, the Atlanta Braves' fans started doing that once they acquired Deion Sanders ... who played football at FSU. It was their way to honor Deion. Deion left, the chop stayed.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

It's only offensive if the Priest is saying "Go f*ck yourself San Diego". We all know how poorly that turned out for Ron Burgundy . . .

Do the schools have to change their names ... or just their mascots are not allowed to perform anymore?

I ask because, being from Illinois, there are A LOT of Native American nicknmaes used for teams from Central Illinois all the way through Wisconsin. Heck, almost all of the cities have native names.

IMO, it is a way to honor Natives. I know there has been much talk about not letting Chief Illiniwek perform at games (he does just jump around like a moron), but I never heard anything about forcing them to change their names. I hope that isn't the case. Most of these schools logos/names are very respectful and honorable (unlike the old Cleveland Indians logo).

As a fan, I love it when the Seminoles "mascot" rides the horse onto the field and slams the "spear" into the ground, getting his team ready for "battle". Maybe, it is offensive (I don't know) ... but I would find that to much different than a civil war type soldier, taking his sword and pointing it forward, signaling the "troops to take the field".

I personally would hate to see the names and mascots go. I think for many people, that will be the last they hear of anything Native-related ... unless we're talking wiskey or casinos.

Strange that Greeks don't complain about Michigan State Spartans, no one complains about the Trojans, (has old Miss been forced to change from "The Rebels", what about UNLV?), etc.

Also being in Illinois, we are close to Notre Dame, will they be forced to change their name/mascot ... surely Irish are more valuable than someone that just does "pushups after touchdowns". I love the Fighting Illini name, and the Irish name, and would wish that people would take a step back.

Are native american groups coming up with these protests, or a group of white folks looking to ease their conscience?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Instead of the chop, the Padres fans should swing around those incesnse things and chant in Latin

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I think names like Redskins and Savages are pretty bad and should go. For specific Indian tribes, I think it's only fair to let the tribe decide.

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You're saying that is nothing more than political correctness at work when Native American tribes ask schools to change their names which they find offensive.

No. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the NCAA's involvement in this issue has to do with projecting an image of political correctness. Frankly, the NCAA has no business doing this. If a tribe has a problem with a school using its tribe name as a mascot, the proper entity with which to raise the issue is the school, not the National Collegiate Athletics Association. In addition, the NCAA's "solution" seems to discount the original poster's statment that the Seminole Council voted in favor of backing FSU in keeping the mascot. Apparently, if the NCAA says it's offensive, it's offensive regardless of whether the allegedly slandered ethinicity thinks it's offensive.

Were Notre Dame being PC when they banned Stanford's band for making fun of Catholics? for having people dressed as priests simulating sex with people dressed as nuns?

Yes and no. Yes because kids are kids and they do stupid offensice shit like that. They should take it in stride.

No, because it was their stadium, and they can do what they want in their stadium.

Is this part of the slippery slope you speak of?

No. Because this has nothing to do with the NCAA's power to force a school to change its mascot.

EDIT

And one more thing. Where do you draw the line? If the Lakota tribe thinks FSU's use of the Seminole name is offensive, do you ban FSU from using "Seminoles" just because another Native American tribe thinks that no Native American tribe name should be used as a mascot? That is the slippery slope of which I speak.

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Steve Perkins

"You mean, like the San Diego Padres?"

Just shows how much I follow baseball. Damnit, you ruined my whole thought of the day.

I've never actually seen the Padres mascot. What is their mascot? They actually had a guy in priest robes as their mascot?

I think this whole NCAA thing is all a little over the top, but it isn't like I am surprised by it. It was only a matter of time. You think Illinois will ever get rid of the Chief? I doubt, nor do I want them to.

I don't know that the Redskins name is "bad" ... but out-dated. When I look at the Redskin logo, I can see that they are not being clownish about the name. It may not be the best name in the world, but IMO it is not intentionally offensive or demeaning. It's like calling black folks "colored", at one time that was the common lingo. It is now, out-dated.

Savages needs to go. I agree.

For specific Indian tribes, I think it's only fair to let the tribe decide.

I agree.

The Illinois Iriqois ... I like the sound of that ... plus, that both in end that "ois" sound. I may start calling myself "The Bois from Illinois". No, that's dumb.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Here's their old logo ...





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That's not offensive ... but their old jersey colors are ...



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I wonder how many Christians have a problem with the Aneheim (now LA) Angels. Dop Satanist have a problem with Duke and Depaul using a colored demon or devil as their logo?

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
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Yes they do. If teams using offensive names want to participate in the NCAAs comnpetitions then the NCAA have every right to make the rules of admission that they see fit. If a school called the Hoboken Fighting Nazis wanted to play in an NCAA competition then the NCAA have every right to tell them to drop the offensive mascot or find another competititve arena.

Point taken, but giving this power to the NCAA is tantamount to allowing them virtually unfettered control over almost any aspect of a University. All they have to do is threaten to expel the school from the NCAA, and they'll get whatever they want. What if an ethinicity found the color red offensive? Do we allow the NCAA to say that no member university can use the color red? This is the slippery slope, Matt. There's a potential here for serious abuse by the NCAA.

The Seminoles of Florida voted for the use of their name but the parent tribe in Oklahoma has voted against the use of their name by Florida State because they find it offensive.

I see. Well then who do we side with? The national council or the Seminoles of Florida? If only one Seminole in the whole US finds it offensive, do we ban the name as a mascot?

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Steve Perkins

Yup. It's a cartoon of a priest, but it's a monk swinging a bat. (kinda like Chief Wahoo is an Indian...)

http://shop.mlb.com/...ble--pi-1850007.html

And it has nothing to do with the individual groups getting their panties in a twist, either, as was claimed by someone earlier. The SDSU Aztecs changed their mascot, due to social pressure, and against the desire of nearly all the students and alumni a few years ago from a pretty cool "Warrior Montezuma" to some lame-ass "Diplomat Montezuma", even though there weren't any actual Aztecs who were offended.



A little over the top? Gee, ya think? ;->

I'm curious to see what happens with the Indianapolis 500, and for that matter Indianapolis, Indiana, in general!

The "it's all for the sake of PC" is pretty strong here, IMO.

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"You'll find a slight squeeze on the hooter an excellent safety precaution, Miss Scrumptious."

"I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it is much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers that might be wrong." -- Richard Feynman

It would be politically correct for me to refrain from refering to you, Matt, as a left wing zealot who can't outwit livestock. So I will be PC and not refer to you in this manner. (I would put one of those annoying sideways happy faces here made with a colon and the right half of a paranthesis but it is against my sensibilities)

Steve, the NCAA has a whole host of rules by which schools must abide in order to participate in NCAA competitions. Adding one more will not suddenly grant them unfettered control over every educational institution in America. They are not creating a new power for themselves here.

Any organization that has rules has the potential to abuse them, the NCAA is no different. What are you advocating?...the removal of all rules, codes of conduct, etc. because they might be abused??????

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Thanks Al for your always entertaining contribution to the discussion.

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"A society is defined not only by what it creates, but by what it refuses to destroy."
John Sawhill

Actually, it WAS the Oklahoma Seminoles who said they had nothing against the Florida State mascot. In fact, they felt it honored their tribe.

This according to the newspapers in Palm Beach and Pensacola.

I'm advocating that the SCHOOLS be given the choice as to whether to change a mascot name, NOT having it be dictated to them by an organization which has no business doing so. This is a stupd, wortheless rule that has no rational relationship to the NCAA's governance of collegiate athletices, and it will not survive the courts when FSU files their lawsuit.

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Steve Perkins

I will wager the Seminole tribe of Florida will be joining that suit, on the side of FSU.

The Providence College Friars. A catholic school in Rhode Island. At the games, there were always brothers and priests watching the action while the Friar Mascot was jumping around like an idiot.

So we do have mascots that "belittle" mainstream cultural ideals. Now, what I don't get is according to some, if one single Catholic found Friar Mascot offensive they should have to change their mascot? Personally, I think it would be funny to see.

That's complete crap. You can always find some idiot who will get "offended" about anything. Typically, that person should look to themselves first and see what their problem is and why they are offended by something so innocuous.

I do think some team names, such as the Savages, are in poor taste. But, to have an actual Indian tribal name I don't see how that is offensive. Maybe if their mascot was portrayed as a drunken idiot then you could see some offensive stereotypes. But for names like the Seminoles, Illini, etc I just don't see what is offensive about it.

In keeping with the theme of posting religious school's mascots to you I present the Wake Forest Deamon Deacons;