What I am saying is that the philosophy that the author (in my reading) subscribes to negates, or at the very least attempts to, all the efforts of the women who choose to take that extra time to find that dress that is just right for the occasion, spend the extra five minutes at the gym, eat two scoops as opposed to three of ice cream, and make sure their make-up looks nice before they head out the door.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't a feminist push more toward a woman's choice as to how she lives her life as opposed to one devoutly opposite of what some men may find ostensibly attractive.

Perhaps I don't see the foul in taking time and effort in putting together one's appearance, and to the extent that its something that you can manipulate on your own why it shouldn't reflect postively or negatively on your self worth.

What I am saying is that the philosophy that the author (in my reading) subscribes to negates, or at the very least attempts to, all the efforts of the women who choose to take that extra time to find that dress that is just right for the occasion, spend the extra five minutes at the gym, eat two scoops as opposed to three of ice cream, and make sure their make-up looks nice before they head out the door.

My 6yo daughter told me she was worried about being fat. Seriously.

I am not sure I am going to be able to find the right words for such a complicated issue but since we are having a conversation and since it is something I feel strongly about I am going to give it a go....I am hoping it doesn't come across as a rant, that is not what I intend. To speak in terms of gross generalities or societal norms makes it vague so I will speak to what I know.

It is one thing to have my appearance/presentation used by others as one facet of an overall impression/appraisal of me. In this sense I have no problem with someone not getting their `best' impression of me if I haven't taken the time to comb my hair and throw on clothes that don't have holes in them. It is quite another to be dismissed outright, to be judged or to be denied opportunities based on whether, because in that first moment, I didn't look like Cindy Crawford. No matter how hard I try I will never look like Cindy Crawford. I bought her weight training video back in the 80's with a degree of wishful thinking:) Alas, I am still me. Even now in 2010 I am still told that that is what I should aspire to, that it will buy the right guy, the nice house, the nice car, great clothes, joy and happiness.

As a smart woman, who has never typically been the best looker in the room, I have learned a few things. There a few men out there who will take the time to get to know me, don't pre-judge. There are others who will quickly dismiss me and move on to my more beautiful/pretty friends. In other words, and in the words of the video- I have been deemed to be "unfuckable". Then there are those who will talk to my chest. My brain is located in my head, not my breasts. While you may argue that most smart men wouldn't behave that way, trust me lots do. Some of these are the same men who will take my girlfriends out for dinner, appreciate their beauty, enjoy having a beautiful woman on their arm and then feel entitled to `something' for having provided the dinner. There are many women who gradually come to believe that their beauty, because of this, is the only thing that will get them somewhere- but eventually what they come to know is that it rings hollow when it doesn't matter whether you did an Ironman, got your degree while raising the kids etc....

So the issue of raising our daughters is complicated. You want them to understand that it does matter that they take care of themselves in ways that allow them to feel beautiful inside and out and that gives them the right kind of opportunities but you also want them to understand how to tell the difference between a boss or a boyfriend who doesn't appreciate them beyond how they look. As the mother of a son, I want him to grow up to appreciate and value inner beauty as much as outer beauty- not to write someone off who doesn't happen to look like his equivalent of Cindy Crawford. Talk about a complicated job!

Not sure this helps....

Alison

What strikes me a particularly interesting is how you arrived at that reading of her work. I got a completely different message - namely, that being defined as and by the term "pretty" is an extremely small and fairly negative way of viewing oneself.

The author is none of the things you mentioned - just look at her. She's well put together, and obviously takes pride in her appearance. But her appearance is not her defining characteristic. She's passionate, eloquent, fiercely opinionated, and intelligent. She's angry. She's funny. She's brave. And yes, pretty, too. But what about her struck you the most? I'd be surprised if you honestly claimed that it was her looks.

THAT, to me, was her point. Not that there's anything intrinsically wrong with "being pretty". But that only being pretty is a far cry from what any modern woman ought to strive for. Based on her looks I'd wager that her daughter will be pretty too. But I'm also quite certain that she'll be far more than just pretty...

I agree completely the toughest sell for things to change is women themselves! So many girls/women assume that guys like a thinner woman and yet if you actually ask them, most typically say they prefer a partner with some curves/shape. Correct me if I am wrong though??? Most can't hear that though. One of the greatest things that I have watched for this issue is the brit show `How to look good naked'. He takes women of all sizes and shapes and helps them to dress and feel better about themselves, just as they are- and they do!

In terms of the messages, to me the best is `health at any size'. If you say that those folks who are on the heavier side need to do things differently then again you are simply continuing the same message. For example, if you have two daughters one thinner the other larger, you are going to feed them differently? send them out to exercise differently? How would that feel to be on the receiving end? No for me the issue is no matter your gene pool, you need to be taking good care of your health period.

So many girls/women assume that guys like a thinner woman and yet if you actually ask them, most typically say they prefer a partner with some curves/shape.

Not to nit-pick or argue, but just to understand better: Why shouldn't you get them to eat differently or exercise differently? Coronary Heart Disease (majority of cases obesity related) is not only the leading cause of death but moreso than the next 7 causes combined. Ignoring the elephant in the middle of the room has never made it go away (at least in my experience). The fact is the folks on the heavier side DO need to do things differently. Hence the costs of health care sky-rocketing. Do you make them study the same if one is an A student and the other a D? I can only say that I would not.

Change the family eating habits to fit the goals and health of both, not single one out. Same as adapting for a daughter who is vegetarian and another who isn't ... it needs to be a family thing that some meals are meat free (or lower cal or whatever).

Ahh the sloth involved in typing ;) Generally speaking it takes something very drastic to offend me, and the word fat is far from it. I don't see why the studying analogy doesn't hold up though. By your rules wouldn't the D student's self esteem be hurt by having to study more?

Perhaps my theory of problem solving is just much more direct. The D student studies more, the fat one gets no ice cream.

I disagree with the extension of this concept to vegetarianism. Vegetarianism is a choice, and one's adherence to that particular choice has no bearing on physical or mental health and well being. Why force the entire family to accommodate the choice of one individual's preference? What if the other daughter is a baconatarian? Do both kids have to swim? Or study a foreign language? Or...?

Perhaps my theory of problem solving is just much more direct. The D student studies more, the fat one gets no ice cream. Perhaps I hold a callous viewpoint, and my guess is the answer lies somewhere between ours, but I think the more we worry about and cater to feelings and emotions the less the root problem gets addressed. Like treating the symptoms but not the cause.

I don't think the whole family should abstain from the wonderful enigma that is iced cream.

Abstaining from Edy's, Bryers, et al.??? Why do you hate ice cream? You must be a bigot.

Nothing tastes as good as thin feels.

I am referring to a daughter that perhaps weighs 150-160 and should weigh 130. 20 lbs @ 150 is about 13% and I don't think that is unreasonable.

Nothing tastes as good as thin feels. Then you, Madam, have never had 10 servings of Creme` Brulee in one sitting :

how would you deal with the fat daughter vs skinny daughter question? Would you feed them differently? Would you feed yourself differently? ]

and promote regular physical activity.

bad foods- My standard line is that there are no bad foods, there are of course foods we would choose to eat more or less of. There are a couple of issues I have with using the term bad to refer to those foods we ought to eat less of. First, people take it to the next step of saying that if I ate that food I am bad. Kids especially cannot make the distinction in the same way that some grown-ups can. Second, it gives food power and food has none. It is food, it is a solid and its primary job is to nourish, then provide secondary pleasure or comfort in some cases. No power.